fighting people when you are old

[Hitman]

Hi every one,
Is it possible for some one to tell my what are their solutions or their sifus' experiences when they have to fight people at the age above 65?

I know western boxers usually do not fight people in the ring after reaching 42, because of lack of stamina and old age. If this is the case then why are elderly fencers and kendo practitioners can still win younger players with average skills in those sport.
According to one of the most famous fencers in 1930s, he had seem elderly fencers easily winning against 20-30 old fencing players with average skills. However, he had not seem any elderly players winning against younger players in any other sport.
Certainly those elderly practitioners do not win, because they are very fit or do conditioning exercises every day. What are their secrets?


Thank you
Hitman

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

Experience!!! The more experienced fighter knows that the opponent's strength and speed can be used against them.. and, typically, strength and speed build a false sense of superiority..

Be well..

[The Willow Sword]

Never underestimate the Old Dog. Youth has that arrogance and that physical strength that can prevail in certain situations. but the experienced and older fighter is going to be a few steps ahead.

of course realistically speaking if the older guy is not as in shape or maintains his health,,then it is likely that the younger and stronger fighter is going to own him. even if the older guy is more experienced as a martial artist. you need to have that health ,stamina and strength maintained.

Peace,,TWS

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

Quite right TWS.. experience without the tools to manifest it is just good memories..

Be well..

[MoreMisfortune]

it really might depend on how old one be talking about
but in reality, the young have great advantage over the old
fencing and unnarmed fighting are diferent becouse in fencing you dont need that much power and the fight is over quickly
when unnarmerd power and stamina will be very important

[Abstract]

are you sh!tting me? !!??

fencers & kendo pratcitoners don't get VIOLENTLY KNOCKED OUT in competition...seriously man, that's a silly comparision


???


i would think Evander Holyfield/Mike Tyson, as past their prime as pro boxing goes, taught a little fencing would do pretty well, considering they're both in better physical condition than **** near everyone on this forum.

*edit*

i mean i understand what you're getting at, but, that was a lousy comparison, the answer's obvious

[Ray Pina]

The old should fear the young when it comes to fists. The young should fear the old when it comes to weapons.

With that said, my master is 64 and still beats me up, and I haven't seen him bested yet by a visitor.... and there are plenty. They usualy decide to train with him afterwards.

[PangQuan]

Yep it pretty much comes down to experience and skill level. You of course will need to maintain your health and stamina. Compare it to chess, you see when it comes down to it fighting (between experts) is very much more mental then it is physical, the physical aspects are there just so your body is capable of doing what your mind wills it to, as in chess the more experienced and skilled player will see many moves ahead the young and inexperienced, thus setting them up for the fall. Same in fighting, if you have the will you have the way, but the will must be led by the experience to be put in the correct direction, and to spot all of the feints, misleads, and actual attacks. This is it. I have seen young defeat old yet I have seen old defeat young. It all depends on the individuals in question. As long as a man keeps his body healthy he needs not fear any weapon of the young, of course there will be limits to everyone. Look at the founder of Aikido, Ueshiba, he would take any one of us here were he still around. At 60, yes and with his hands, he still owned the young dogs. Its all upstairs my friend, its all upstairs.

[IronFist]

All else being equal, old people have more experience.

[Pork Chop]

Originally posted by Hitman
I know western boxers usually do not fight people in the ring after reaching 42, because of lack of stamina and old age.

Are you sure you mean "people in the ring" and not "the highest level of competition on a televised event"?

[Hitman]

I am referring to fighting inside a boxing ring and under boxing regulations. Of course you can start a fight with any one at any time, even if you are 85 years old, provided that you are willing to throw the first attack, whether you will win the fight is a different matter.
Fencing before 1940s did involve sharpe edged weapons and they were used in duel. Bascially you could get kill or seriously hurt.
One famous Italian olypmic fencing champion (I have forgotten his name) was challenged to a duel by a fellow Italian after he praised a French fencing champion. He won the dual by wounding his opponent seven times. You will find his name in a good fencing book.
The most famous Japanese swordman (Sword Saint) used to kill and seriously wounded his oppoents with his wooden swords. Many Japanese swordmen were seriously hurt when sparring with wooden swords, before 1900s. This was because Japanese did not like to lose. They would tried their best to beat their opponents.
People do get hurt in fencing and kendo.


Hitman

[Knifefighter]

The young has the advantage in any competitive event over the senior citizen, whether it is mental, physical, or skill based. From boxing to wrestling, to chess, to shooting, to fencing, to kendo, to archery. This is the reason you don't see 60-year-old plus world champions in any of the above listed events.

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..


The young has the advantage in any competitive event over the senior citizen, whether it is mental, physical, or skill based. From boxing to wrestling, to chess, to shooting, to fencing, to kendo, to archery. This is the reason you don't see 60-year-old plus world champions in any of the above listed events. LOL.. or, that is the voice of experience telling the older wiser players that sport-fighting is where the youth get the experience that the older players already have.. we've "been there, done that" and are pleased to be entertained by the next generation.. amused at the suave arrogance of such statements as above.. oddly, the youth keep returning to the "older" players for guidance and training.. left to their own devices, the youth would eradicate each other in a blood-bath of "inexperience".. and "train" each other out of existence.. that's why you don't see a bunch of 25 year old "Masters"..

Be well..

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Hitman
I know western boxers usually do not fight people in the ring after reaching 42

that doesn't mean they aren't training. They stop COMPETING. when you are fighting on a pro level - heck, even semi pro, you're not gonna keep up with the young guys. that doesn't mean you can't hold your own, however.


Certainly those elderly practitioners do not win, because they are very fit or do conditioning exercises every day. What are their secrets?

there are no secrets in MA... just train. One of my judo coaches is 76 and he still schools younger guys. However, he could not keep up in a judo tournament...

[Ray Pina]

is Garry Kasparov .... he's 46 years old.

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

EF: and one the top 5 chess champions is Josh Waitzken ("In Search of Bobby Fisher") A world champion Push-hands competitor in his late 20's maybe early 30's.. one of W.C.C.Chen's students.. and almost a Chen family member..

Most of the older players have learned to live in harmony with their passions.. not be controlled by them.. fine wines..

Be well..

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by TaiChiBob
Greetings..

LOL.. or, that is the voice of experience telling the older wiser players that sport-fighting is where the youth get the experience that the older players already have.. we've "been there, done that" and are pleased to be entertained by the next generation.. amused at the suave arrogance of such statements as above.. oddly, the youth keep returning to the "older" players for guidance and training.. left to their own devices, the youth would eradicate each other in a blood-bath of "inexperience".. and "train" each other out of existence.. that's why you don't see a bunch of 25 year old "Masters"..

Be well..

you can't overlook the obvious so easily... sticking with the ueshiba example, he would geet mauled in a competition. The judo coach I referred to is 76, but actualy competition is a much different animal - different intent, different intensity... He couldn't compete. Why do you think they have age classes? Old guys can continue to train, but after a certain point, your experience and knowledge is all that you have. On the bright side, defending yourself against an untrained attacker, that may be all you need. When the above mentioned judo coach was 74, he chased a robber out of his home.

As for masters, you don't really see a whole lot of old ones either...the "what constitutes a master?" discussion is a whole different topic, however.

[WinterPalm]

I understand the term master to be something given or bestowed upon one by their superiors, peers, and students and for this it takes many years to reach. Especially in a physical pursuit such as Kung Fu that not only requires one to be a physical fighter and healthy, but to keep a mental edge and be well-rounded within their stability. With chess, one can become a master because they have the mind but don't require the body. A martial artist may be a master from the mental side, they have the great intent, but they must actualize that intent and desire by manipulating and controlling the body to such a point that it represents what the mind desires.

[Knifefighter]

Originally posted by TaiChiBob
oddly, the youth keep returning to the "older" players for guidance and training.. Of course older people who have "been there, done that" have a wealth of experience. They can teach the youngsters many things. However, when it comes to application, youth trumps age almost every time. There is a reason you don't see 70 year old chess, boxing, archery, bowling, boxing, wrestling, or scrabble world champions.

[Becca]

ROTFLMAO!!! Knifefighter, you have reminded me of one thing my first teacher told me (and I have heard it repaeated several times by others):

"With all things being equal, youth would win over old age. But we all know that nothing that involves two or more human beings is going to be equal. The elder has more to offer than experience and a good reprtuire; he brings the knowledge of that that young **** is likely also a cocky shi and is going to be going over in his mind everything he knows and just how he's going to deal with it when he sees it comming.

He has not yet lived long enought to realize his older, wiser opponant is never going to give him what he's expecting unless he's laying a trap!"

[GunnedDownAtrocity]

Originally posted by Abstract
are you sh!tting me? !!??

fencers & kendo pratcitoners don't get VIOLENTLY KNOCKED OUT in competition...seriously man, that's a silly comparision


???


i would think Evander Holyfield/Mike Tyson, as past their prime as pro boxing goes, taught a little fencing would do pretty well, considering they're both in better physical condition than **** near everyone on this forum.

*edit*

i mean i understand what you're getting at, but, that was a lousy comparison, the answer's obvious


your talkin to my man all wrong.

he wasnt saying that people dont get hurt, just that its easier to hurt someone with a lot of skill and a big stick than without one.

weapons have always been the great equalizers.

[SPJ]

How do you win?

Being stronger, faster and smarter.

Most important of all, out maneuver in tactics and strategy.

The movie "Far side of the world".

A 40 year old British ship defeated the French faster new ship.

The French is outspeeding and outgunning the British.


The sinking of Bismark.

It was a smaller, faster and with bigger guns or mini battle ship.

How did the British Royal Navy sink it?

Outnumber it with slower and bigger ships in an advantage position and setup traps to hunt the pride of Nazi Navy.

The sinking of Yamato and Musashi battleships.

Yes. by going in the air. There were no US ships to get near without being shelled out of the horizon.

The Japanese mighty ships were spotted by recon airplanes. They were sunk by torpedoes and bombs from airplanes.

Would you go to war or set sail with a 40 or 60 year old captain or a 20 year old Naval cadet captain?

[SPJ]

The German Navy was not ready for war against the British Navy.

It has only 2 pocket size battleships.

So the German used the 2 to ambush the transports and take out small escortships. To paralyze the psychology and the shipping routes vital to the survival of the British empire.

The same strategy with the subs or wolf packs.

The British Navy used all the recon to spot the Bismark and set up traps to get her.

Both sides used the strongpoints to hit the weakness on the other side.

My point is that they all fight smarter to win. Being stronger and faster do not garantee you a win.

Outmaneuver to be in an advantage position in timing and space, you win with the least effort possible.

You win by being smarter.

[GunnedDownAtrocity]

just like in kung fu!

yeah!

*freezes mid air punching the sky*

[ZIM]

I've read through this whole thread and I still haven't read any tips for beating up old people. :rolleyes:

[Ray Pina]

Have we also forgotten that the current UFC heavy weight champion is 43 years old?

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Becca

"With all things being equal, youth would win over old age. But we all know that nothing that involves two or more human beings is going to be equal. The elder has more to offer than experience and a good reprtuire; he brings the knowledge of that that young **** is likely also a cocky shi and is going to be going over in his mind everything he knows and just how he's going to deal with it when he sees it comming.

He has not yet lived long enought to realize his older, wiser opponant is never going to give him what he's expecting unless he's laying a trap!"

I've never tried to plan out anything like that - I just deal with it as it comes. The only time I look forward to anything is when I KNOW it's something that the guy is known for doing, and even then, I don't wait for it, I just make sure I'm trained well enough to react properly when it comes.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by WinterPalm
I understand the term master to be something given or bestowed upon one by their superiors, peers, and students and for this it takes many years to reach. Especially in a physical pursuit such as Kung Fu that not only requires one to be a physical fighter and healthy, but to keep a mental edge and be well-rounded within their stability. With chess, one can become a master because they have the mind but don't require the body. A martial artist may be a master from the mental side, they have the great intent, but they must actualize that intent and desire by manipulating and controlling the body to such a point that it represents what the mind desires.

See, that's what I'm talking about - depends on whom you ask. I have a friend from taiwan that refers to anyone who teaches in some capacity (teacher, assisstant teacher, etc.) as a master. She'll be talking about me to her friends and mention that she has a friend that is a master... I correct her, but she does it repeatedly. A teacher is what she defines as a master.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by EvolutionFist
Have we also forgotten that the current UFC heavy weight champion is 43 years old?

There is a fitness mag on the stands now that has an interview with him.In it, he states that he is feeling his age and can't train like he used to. IMO though, 43 isn't that old. we've got a bjj brown belt who's 40 and dominates at national level bjj tournies. His goal is to get invited to the abu dhabi. By "old" we're talking about how people say the senior citizen age masters would mop the floor with younger guys - ueshiba has already been mentioned earlier in the thread.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by SPJ
The German Navy was not ready for war against the British Navy.

It has only 2 pocket size battleships.

So the German used the 2 to ambush the transports and take out small escortships. To paralyze the psychology and the shipping routes vital to the survival of the British empire.

The same strategy with the subs or wolf packs.

The British Navy used all the recon to spot the Bismark and set up traps to get her.

Both sides used the strongpoints to hit the weakness on the other side.

My point is that they all fight smarter to win. Being stronger and faster do not garantee you a win.

Outmaneuver to be in an advantage position in timing and space, you win with the least effort possible.

You win by being smarter.

yeah, but there's a big difference between using your mind to formulate a strategy for BATTLESHIPS and using your mind in conjunction with an aging human body... If you want to apply the battleship theory, use those two battleships to take out two nuclear carriers, or use a tigershark to take out an f-18...

[SPJ]

There are 4 parameters here.

1. speed.

2. size or weight.

3. gun.

4. tactics and strategy.

If the weight is smaller and the engine is bigger or more powerful, you have a faster speed.

The bigger the gun will dish heavy shells at a longer distance. It has a higher impact and bigger explosion.

However, a bigger boat has to be struck at fatal areas and takes more shells to sink.

A smaller and faster boat is difficult to hit. But once hit, the boat is a gonner. Do not need many shellings to sink.

[Hua Lin Laoshi]

For me, personally, the biggest changes were noticed around 45. Before that it was so gradual that consistant training was able to cover it quite well.

I do recall back when I was about 33 or so I was sparring with a 19 year old to help tune him up for a competition. As I was dancing on him another student (his close friend) began hollering at him "C'mon, you're getting beat up by a 30 year old guy!".

I was slightly insulted that they thought of me as 'over the hill' in my early 30's.

[SPJ]

Sorry to interrupt.

My point is that for every advantage comes with a disadvantage.

The tactics and strategy is to cover your disadvantage and use your advantage to the Max.

A nuclear carrier is a big target to hit. However, there will be at least 5 escort ships travelling with it.

We are in a missile age. Everything else becomes a platform to launch the missiles.

I may have a small boat or sub. If I get a coordinate of the carrier via satellite. I use many different platforms and launch hundreds of missiles and torpedoes at the carrier at the same time.

Carrier is big enough for nuclear attack as well. Which means land based ICBM with multiple nuclear war heads will be used against it. The ICBM's are a lot cheapers than a carrier.

A carrier does not travel fast.

A tactical nuclear blast only needs to be close enough.

[Ray Pina]

My master is 64 and also quite capable of fighting. I'm 30, have been training since I was a kid, feel like I can handle myself better than the average 30 year old, and can't compete with him standing or on the ground.

Most of his new students are young men who also came to see, were bested, and now stay.

A tai kick boxing champion who owns a few schools visited not too long ago and posted about his experience at bullshido and I pasted it here a while ago.

People don't want to hear this sort of thing and it often sounds like bragging. I mention it here because I believe it is fundemental.

No dount the young have the advantage. As do the big and strong. But martial arts is about overcoming these disadvantages. When we train we consider ourselves old and weak and work from there.

Most of what I see, and what I have been doing, is called fighting. Two people forcing their raw power on each other. This is not martial arts.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by SPJ
Sorry to interrupt.

My point is that for every advantage comes with a disadvantage.

The tactics and strategy is to cover your disadvantage and use your advantage to the Max.

A nuclear carrier is a big target to hit. However, there will be at least 5 escort ships travelling with it.

We are in a missile age. Everything else becomes a platform to launch the missiles.

I may have a small boat or sub. If I get a coordinate of the carrier via satellite. I use many different platforms and launch hundreds of missiles and torpedoes at the carrier at the same time.

Carrier is big enough for nuclear attack as well. Which means land based ICBM with multiple nuclear war heads will be used against it. The ICBM's are a lot cheapers than a carrier.

A carrier does not travel fast.

A tactical nuclear blast only needs to be close enough.

carriers don't move fast, but they do carry... the jets that they carry move plenty fast. I see your point though - it's just that when dealing with aging humans, machinery really doesn't make a good comparison. that's like when people say "speed is what matters, force = mass time ACCELERATION, so a smaller faster guy can hit harder than a slow moving big guy. Look at a ferrari doing 120 hitting a wall vs. a semi doing 10mph and hitting a wall"

Naturally, that statement is full of flaws - the machine factor in the example can't compare to humans in terms of speed and force...

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by EvolutionFist
My master is 64 and also quite capable of fighting. I'm 30, have been training since I was a kid, feel like I can handle myself better than the average 30 year old, and can't compete with him standing or on the ground.

Most of his new students are young men who also came to see, were bested, and now stay.

A tai kick boxing champion who owns a few schools visited not too long ago and posted about his experience at bullshido and I pasted it here a while ago.

People don't want to hear this sort of thing and it often sounds like bragging. I mention it here because I believe it is fundemental.

No dount the young have the advantage. As do the big and strong. But martial arts is about overcoming these disadvantages. When we train we consider ourselves old and weak and work from there.

Most of what I see, and what I have been doing, is called fighting. Two people forcing their raw power on each other. This is not martial arts.

I missed that post - got a link?

[PangQuan]

Originally posted by EvolutionFist
A tai kick boxing champion who owns a few schools visited not too long ago and posted about his experience at bullshido and I pasted it here a while ago.

got a link to that post?

[SevenStar]

copycat. :p

[Knifefighter]

Originally posted by EvolutionFist
Most of his new students are young men who also came to see, were bested, and now stay. How did he "best" them?

[PangQuan]

Originally posted by SevenStar
I missed that post - got a link?

LOL, i missed that one. :rolleyes:

[Ray Pina]

http://bullshido.net/forums/showthread.php?t=16520&highlight=Master+Bond+Chan

This is the post by the tai boxer. I was not there that night and they did not free fight but there are the boxer's comments. My master was pleased about the "pillow" comment. Also, my master had a busted toe at the time and could not move, so the boxer said he moved my master once. In actuality, my master normally would have moved every time.

Anyway, this is a third party comment. I've seen several things with my own eyes. I can be training at a great number of places -- the Gracies are actually closer and cheeper.

[Pork Chop]

Dude, that's Khun Kao yer talkin bout...
He posts on here...
Some of us on this board know him pretty well...
Needless to say, your master ain't the first "kung fu guy" he's seen in action... hehe
His main coach right now is a GREAT example of older guys still kicking it; I mean he's completely destroyed the "thai boxers can't walk past 30" stereotype for me...

BTW- it's Thai boxing, as in Thailand....

[PangQuan]

Interesting post from that boxer, Master Chan must be good to get a review from a thai boxer like that.

[Becca]

Originally posted by SPJ
... The sinking of Bismark.

It was a smaller, faster and with bigger guns or mini battle ship.

How did the British Royal Navy sink it?

Outnumber it with slower and bigger ships in an advantage position and setup traps to hunt the pride of Nazi Navy...
The Bismark was the biggest battleship ever put to sea. She was hunted down not for what she did, but because of what she could do, as the only live engagement she ever fought in was her own death battle. She was sunk more by smaller battleships, yes, but also by air-launched torpedos. If memeory serves, it took two fleats in the area of 36 hours to do her in once they had her trapped.:)











Man, do I watch too much history channel. That, or I actually got something from my dad making me listen to Johnny Horton as a child. :o :cool:

[FatherDog]

Originally posted by EvolutionFist
Have we also forgotten that the current UFC heavy weight champion is 43 years old?

Light heavyweight champion.