White Ape sets

[Hua Lin Laoshi]

I'm still confused about the White Ape sets. The White Ape Steals Peach I know is different then some of the video I've seen, namely shirkers1.

I remember reading discussions on it before but I don't recall the final outcome. The one I know would be the same as Art's upcoming seminar. Was Jake's recent seminar the same set?

Can anyone explain it again?

[sayloc]

what system is your set from

[Three Harmonies]

My set comes from the Taiji Meihua Tanglang family of Hu Xi Lin - Ma Han Qin, from mainland (Beijing) China. Shirkers1 does HK Seven Star. I have seen many families play this set from Hk including John Funk, some Tai Mantis folks and what not. Very similar. The version I know is strikingly different in both appearance and technique. I have not seen many mainland versions of Bai Yuan Tao Toe so I have little to compare too. I would love to hear/see Brendan Tunks Laoshis' version.
I have also been told (but don't know 100%) that the Wutang and Pachitanglang groups do not do a version of this form. But Yang Shu Ton Laoshi has been hosting the very talented Sun De Yao Laoshi for a few years now, and I know several of Tonys students have been training diligently under him learning the Hao Jia Meihua Tanglang. I have not seen the Hao families version either, but would love too since we are distantly related!
My 2 cents!
Jake:D

[yu shan]

The BYTT that I have is from Jake`s lineage. Cool form and flows very well. I did not get to learn Art`s BYTT, guess I was not ready or something. I am very interested in the White Ape series, I hope to learn more.

[Hua Lin Laoshi]

Ok, that would be the same. The one I know is Taiji Meihua. I learned it years ago but it traces back to Art D'Agostino. I believe Art picked it up during one of the China trips but I don't know who taught him.

Edit: yu shan
I guess we were posting at the same time. So does John teach this set or the other BYTT?

[yu shan]

HLL

I have no idea whether Shifu Scolaro knows BYTT, we have never talked about this form. He was already living in Taiwan when Art taught it. And I do not know if Master Shr taught him this form. One of my guys demonstrated Hu Xi Lin`s BYTT to Master Shr while he was here. I have seen my shrshungs do this form in Taiwan. It is differant than what I have. I especially like the two-person form of BYTT that Master Shr teaches, maybe someday...

[Hua Lin Laoshi]

Check out the San Diego clip on Mike Dasargo's website (http://www.traditionalkungfu.bigstep.com/generic7.html). It's the same set but what I have appears to be a stripped down version, not as many moves as seen in this clip.

Between the time that Art taught it and I learned it I believe it went through 2 or 3 other people and I don't know how many years. Maybe some moves got lost but it's definitely much shorter.

[yu shan]

Nice clip HLL, thanks. This form has more to it than the way I have it also. Just another approach I guess. Do you really think some moves got lost? The Wah Lum crowd always seemed into precision. I know myself and others wanted to pass material down exactly how we learned it. In my early days, I use to get upset when a form was differant from WL school to WL school.

[Tainan Mantis]

Hll,
If your version is thru Art or one of his students then it is the same as Jake(Three harmonies).
I learned this from Art, my first PM Shifu, and saw Yushan's version.

There are some big differences, but it is the same set.

Art's is the 7* version and looks more like what 7* people of Shandong do.

Yushan,
John did not learn this set.
In Taiwan, no one ever passed down this set and the HK WHF book was not publicly available so it never became popular or known here.
Shiye traveled to HK to learn this set among others.

He calls it Mantis Steals the Peach according to the HK 7* tradition though it is very close to the Shandong version fow hat this whole thread is about.

[Three Harmonies]

Tainan is correct. Same set, with a different flavor and a few different moves. Interesting to see though, and he has some nice power and what not. Do you know if this is supposed to be HK 7 star, or more mainland?? It is totally different than all the HK 7 Star I have seen!! Do you know where he got it?
Jake:D

[Frogman]

Interesting…
I have seen this clip before but did not know the form at the time. I just learned it a few months ago. I’m not sure where my Sifu learned it but it is most likely similar to the one HLL knows. I noticed that the first half of the form in the clip is exactly or at least very close to the version I learned. The second half is completely different, save the closing move. I don’t know that much about it, but I do love doing this form. It’s nice to be able to see it done differently not just in the sequence but also the movements themselves have a different flavor. If not for football I would practice this afternoon. The video provided by shirkers1 is completely different. It made me think that there is a difference between White Monkey, as it was told to me, and White Ape. Are they the same form with different versions, or two different forms that get confused since the names are similar?

fm
:)

[Hua Lin Laoshi]

yu shan
Now I'm interested in seeing Jake's version. Guess that gives us something to compare notes on next time we meet.

Sometimes for seminars, especially with a large or really mixed (experience) group, moves are left out to simplify the form for faster learning.

Also when a set is passed on years later or through a few people quickly a few moves could get lost.

Since what I have came from a seminar and passed through a few people with years in between it's possible some moves were lost.

Tainan Mantis
Thanks for the info but it's my understanding that Art's is Taiji Meihua, not 7*. I believe the 7* version opens with a punch and TJMH opens with mantis hooks.

[Hua Lin Laoshi]

That's the thing, Frogman, it's confusing as hell. I believe Tom learned this set in China with Art so it would be the same.

It seems that mainland 7* vresion is the same but HK 7* version is different.

BTW, what's with all the WASP seminars these days? :)

[Tainan Mantis]

HLL,

Art's is 7*. Absolutely no doubt about it.

The version taught in Shandong, not to be confused with the WASP taught by HK 7*.

[Frogman]

I do believe that my Sifu learned the form on the mainland. He had mentioned there was a hot bed of 7*, I think he said Shandong, I will ask to be sure.

fm
:)

[Hua Lin Laoshi]

Hmmm, guess I got confused even more. I thought his upcoming seminar was Taiji Meihua. Oh well.

Frogman
I believe your Sifu learned it on the same China trip so it would be the same.

sayloc
I tried to PM but your box is full.

[shang wu]

Ah yes china trips w/ MC, no one tells you any thing, as far as I know it is 7* . I think more than the form I tend to be more into exploring the movement and power generation. How the rotations work together to create a unified body movement. Also I emphasize training chan so jing for connectedness and short power generation, ask tainan he has done this set with me.Whatever the branch this is one sweet set, I’m far more into what it has to offer in substance than where it comes from IMO. Taiji maihua mantis I learn from li Enjiu and will be being taught at the spring festival, in march along with two handed sword and Chen Taiji, :cool:

[shirkers1]

frogman

the video in question is not our white ape steals the peach. Not even close. Our version is WHF 7 * and if you have the WHF books you can pretty much follow along with what is going on in our set. Accept for the spinning. All the WASP I've seen have been pretty close to ours, maybe a toe kick replaced with a heel pressing kick or an extra arm break before you press. So I really don't know what form Mr Desargo is performing there or from what family. Maybe we can ask him since he looks in on this site. ;)


Hua lin
I did the form pretty slow in my vid so you can pick out the movements and tactics. Our version starts off with a LH slap block and a RH negative diu to the groin.

[-N-]

Originally posted by shirkers1
So I really don't know what form Mr Desargo is performing there or from what family. Check out Praying Mantis Steals the Peach.

N.

[shirkers1]

-N-

hmmm I actually don't practice that set. I do have it on video performed by a few sources so I'll compare them detail wise. :)

[sayloc]

Mr. N

Were you saying the form Mr Desargo is performing on the clip is called Praying manits steals the peach?

If so what system?

thanks

[mantis108]

Here's a clip of BYTT that Mike Martello shared. Enjoy

Bai Yuan Tau Tao (http://rapidshare.de/files-en/430497/bytt.wmv.html)

Mantis108

[Young Mantis]

Originally posted by sayloc
Mr. N

Were you saying the form Mr Desargo is performing on the clip is called Praying manits steals the peach?

If so what system?

thanks
The clip of Mike Dasargo performing in San Diego is what is known as "Praying Mantis Steals the Peach" in the LGY/WHF lineage although his flavor is quite different from anyone I have seen performing this set. Most of the movements are similar enough for the form to be recognizable although there are differences as well.

There have been other threads that discuss the differences in the naming of these sets from PRC to HK.

YM

[shirkers1]

-N- & young mantis

yes it's praying mantis steals the peach apon closer examination. It's definately a different flavor than our WHF lineage.. I sometimes get lost in flailing arms and such when I see other people do sets. But after watching our version I can pick out similarities in some sequences.

[B.Tunks]

I haven't seen the clip in question but I have seen Mr D'agostino perform this form and as Tainan said it's a definitely a version of Yantai Qixing Tanglang's Bai Yuan Tou Tao (which is the equivalent of WHF's Tanglang Tou Tao).

[sayloc]

If I understand correctly the form on this clip would be called praying mantis steals the peach by HK WHF lineage and it would be called white ape steals the peach by mainland yantai Qixing.

Am I right?

What would the Yan Tai Qixing call the HK WHF lineage white ape steals the peach? The one shirkers does on the clip. If they do it at all. If not where did this version come from?

Thanks

[Michael Dasargo]

has it's roots in Mantis Steals the Peach (aka White Ape Steals the Peach on the Mainland, per brondin tunstino ;).

The set has been altered for two reasons:

1. Public Viewing
2. Personal Habituation

In no way is the set an attempt to represent WASP or PMSTP.

Due to the nature of my occupation, I am only able to efficiently play one set/year. The variations in the techniques are Chin Na techniques that I most frequently apply on the job. My personal training regimen consists of high reps of limited techniques and sequences. The stepping patterns as well as the multitude of angular attacks (high, low, left, right combo.s) equips me with the necessary tools to survive in a city populated with criminals trained in MMA.

I can only demonstrate what I train.

Best Regards,
M.Dasargo

[shirkers1]

Thanks mr dasargo for clearing that up for us. :) So some moves were definately changed and it's not a specific version of the PMSTP.

[Frogman]

This can all be very confusing. I do know I enjoy the set very much and all this talk has me practicing it more. So the forms that shirkers1 and mr dasargo provided are different forms with similar names. mr dasargo set (adjusted) but still close to the form that shirkers1 calls Mantis steals peach. So that would mean that the set I do is closer to mantis steals peach depending on who I’m talking to. Of course I was told it’s called white monkey steals peach, and that’s what I’m going with. Knowing the difference will help me if I ever get into an argument about it and then I’ll say, “Oh you must be talking about the other WASP.” It must be a good set and has more to it then I can see right now if it gets this much attention.


fm
:D

[shirkers1]

In our family of WHF lineage we have

baag yune tou toe - white ape steals the peach
baag yune tsuud dung - white ape exits the cave
tong long tou toe - praying mantis steals the peach
tong long tsuud dung - praying mantis exits the cave

All 4 sets are different even though they have similar names.

So mr dasargo's form is as he says it, a version of "praying mantis steals the peach" that he has adapted for his personal use and public viewing, and not a version of "white ape steals the peach" and not technically sound to praying mantis steals the peach although similar.

[Mantis1959]

The set on the video appears to be Mantis Steals the Peach not White Ape Steals the Peach.:)

[Young Mantis]

Again, this depends on who you ask. My understanding of these forms is the following:

Originally there were two forms known only as
Chut Dong - Exits Cave
Tao Tow - Steals Peach

Somewhere along the line, PRC mantis folks began calling these forms with the White Ape prefix. These same forms were named presumably by Law Gwong Yook with the Praying Mantis prefix. He then added two more forms to his curriculum with the White Ape prefixes of the same names. These forms are not found in PRC as far as I know by any name and seem to be unique to the LGY lineage.

I don't know why and when the names were changed for the original forms by the PRC community or by LGY.

YM

[Mantis1959]

Young Mantis where in NY are you. I'm originally from Queens, in New Jersey now.

[Hua Lin Laoshi]

I think I got it now.

shirkers1
I stand corrected. I realized awhile after I posted the your WASP starts with a reverse mantis groin strike but was too lazy to edit my post.

Mantis1959
You're a little light on info in your profile. I was wondering, are you with Master Wang Rengang?

Any other mantis in NJ?

[shirkers1]

Hua Lin

no worries. :) It happens to the best of them. Sometimes I look back on what I write and I'm like "wha"? Then I'm to lazy to re write it, or realize that everyone already read it so I look like a tard and say screw it. :)

[Mantis1959]

Hua Lin Laoshi, No I am from the Chiu Leun sect (Chiu Chi Man) Northern 7 Star Mantis. Not sure if other mantis in New Jersey.

[Hua Lin Laoshi]

Ok, I know Master Wang has a school in north Jersey so I thought you might train there.

[Young Mantis]

Originally posted by Mantis1959
Young Mantis where in NY are you. I'm originally from Queens, in New Jersey now.
Mantis1959,
I live in the Bronx, the school is in Manhattan.

[flem]

Hua lin,

Master shr, has the same set(probably both). He worked on it with me years ago when I was visiting my brother in law. He was showing me the two person set. The last run had some minor changes, and a movement that was the same, but cut in half, like a hop. Which allows the the "user" the ability to counter, when previously it would have taken too long. Also, those final three punchs were not in it. The main difference in his movement and ours was the tight structure, just like pong lais other stances... ugly but effective. I think the version art learned is taught to kind of show off, wide low, cool looking stance...
one more thing, when this form was talked about like at performances master chan referred to it as "seven star", as if the white ape part wasn't even a word, not that we needed to even question tainan mantis!

[shang wu]

Flem,
I don’t think it’s about things being taught to look cool for demos, you see this stylized difference in much of Zhang bing dao’s movement, as well as other mainland mantis I’ve seen. I love master Shr and respect his vast and deep knowledge and always enjoy and value his teaching but that being said he is not the last word on it. He is a voice in this very large dialogue that has been going on for centuries and with the help of all of us will be going on for much longer. pm me on that ½ move in the last road I’m interested in this. When you’re in town come by the farm with the kids and do some horse back riding with them.

[flem]

Shang Wu,

Well I meant that the low stance are better used to train the legs, but don't seem applicable in a fighting situation. Probably not so good for the knees either! Actually, I like a happy medium between the two, as Pong Lai's rear knee, seems quite awkward to me.

[shang wu]

Flem,

I can go with that. I like the middle way as well, more mobile less ware and tear .

[yu shan]

shang wu, flem

I must agree, this "jade ring" stance as taught in PL is very uncomfortable. I tend to stretch it out a bit, nothing like Master Zhang`s though, his is way too low. And is very susceptible to a sweep. This one does not hurt my knees, but I to have altered a bit.

I agree, Master Shr is one voice, happy to hear the love. I`m always willing to learn whats out there. The world is our oyster.

[flem]

Actually, and I hate to say this among die hard traditionalists, but Bruce Lee got it right, probably from mantis, I don't know.

[18elders]

when i met master shr for the first time and told him i learned some sets from manster zhang he asked to see them.
When i did the stance he asked about them and then swept me on my ass. He then showed me the way he does the stance and told me to get back into it. He swept me with the same power as the first and i didn't go down.
Also the stretched out version defeats part of the purpose of the stance during application.

Yes Master shr is one man but he is the voice of about 40 masters or more that he spent his life training with so i think i would tend to go with his word.
I think it is easy for us to change things because we don't like it or it is easier as compared to doing it the way it has been done and perfected over hundreds of years.

[yu shan]

18 Elders, I here ya. I got swept the same way, and it really does not take much. This elongated version of jade ring is in my opinion, not practical, but it is aesthetlcally pleasing to the eye. Our stance is ugly, but works!

The knowledge Master Shr has learned from over 40 GrandTeachers, should be respected. I am with you on this.

[shang wu]

Take any stance and just stand there with it and you can be swept on your ass, some may seem easier than others but a static stance can be swept. Mantis is mobile and adaptive, the stance I think we are talking about is used in waist chopping so in the right place it is not vulnerable to a sweep. If you want to stand in front of someone and not move yes you will go down.

As for your comments about master shr’s life study of mantis, you come off like he is the authority with that experience, and it sounds like a put down on others like Zhang laoshi and anyone else that differs from master shr’s way of doing things.

I am by no means the expert on all of this but I can certainly see attitudes that are less than productive to any debate on the subject. Too much pride lacks humility and after it is all said and done were is wude in all of this. We are all looking for our way in this. And after a couple of seminars with Zhang laoshi it would be far reaching to think that you , yu shan or I represent his knowledge and teaching

[flem]

Shang Wu,

Yes I agree just about any stance can be swept. In my opinion the Pong Lai stance is too tight, in most instances I think it is more practical than the one I was taught, but I think the best is happy medium. Of course I will hear plenty of arguement on this, but the Pong Lai version seems as though it could easily be "over run" with a lunge or charge forward, or I should say one particular weakness. I also don't think that the rear leg position offers enough power without repositioning it first.
But like you said who am I to question. I think all of these particulars are subject to their place in history. For instance with Pong Lai, it may be that it is adapted to a time or place that favors knee attacks, or some other attack that is used excessively.

[yu shan]

:rolleyes: excuse me for living but the grave yards full. If you think I have an attitude, you are a little sensitive today.

I do happen to think Shr ZhengZhong is an authority here. JMO

Have a wonderful day.

[shang wu]

Yu Shan
yes I ‘m glad your alive as well, you are quite a nice guy. I was directing my comment to 18, I also agree that Shr laoshi is AN authority, what was missed in my post was the word THE. So please excuse me if I offended you it was not my intent. Really, sorry no harm meant

[flem]

Yu Shan,

One thing that I don't understand, well, I do, but am wondering if you do. First aren't "you" an authority. I believe that you are. And if you are, can't you question the validity of what you learn? Yes, your sigung is an authority, but is his the last word? It is one thing to be humble and quite another to be subservient. Even though your Sigung has such a rich history, does not mean that he is always right, nor does it mean that you cannot add your piece to history. I think(I don't know, just taking what I've seen of his posts/that and I know him) that Tainan Mantis, though humble and completely respectful, tests what he learns, and cross references it for validity. I am not making a point for or against the stance we are speaking of, but rather the view that because so and so does it this way, it has to be right.

[18elders]

the tightness of the stance is used to check, trap or attack your opponents front leg and also protect your groin. the extended stance doesn't offer this. Mantis is in tight fighting, it is easy to use this stance when attacking so it would be hard for your opponent to run over you.

Shang, yes he is an authority, but if you take master zhangs training and master Shr's training and teachers i believe master Shr has trained with many more mantis masters. It would be safe to say he has had more mantis experience so i think his knowledge would be more in depth. With that in mind i would tend to go with what he showed me.
I have trained with both and there is a difference.
I didn't see it as an attitude but as an explanation of the difference in the stance and why a person would do one over the other.

This would've been an interesting topic to discuss with master Shr when we was here a few months ago.

[sayloc]

Flem

I must still be reading your posts wrong.


Everyone else

I would like to ask the nice people involved with this post when was the last time you had the gear on and fought some san shou? You can go full contact kick low, grab legs, take down whatever you want.

That will teach you exactly how to use any particular stance if it could be used at all. All of the discussion using it to be in close for a check or whatever is usless if you have never used it in an up to speed fight (not two person set).

You will find that many stances are used in an instant to lock in a technique as it is thrown. You would look foolish if stay in a jade ring stance or what ever you call it for long at all. We must remeber that the transitions are just as important if not more than the ending stance with a technique.

Some of the applications people describe would almost be impossiblle in a full speed situation.

Yeah. if you stand in front of a guy in a jade ring stance for one minute you are gong to get swept.

Try the san shou, one of my students is a 42 year old mother of six and she does it.:)

Practicing white ape steals the peach can teach you some of these transitions and stances (that was for you Bei):)

[Hua Lin Laoshi]

Learning from a lot of teachers is great. It gives you a wide range of perspectives. I suspect even differences of OPINION on things such as the proper way to execute a stance. To form YOUR OWN OPINION and pass that on, or pass on the OPINION you happen to agree with, is a natural thing to do. Please note the capatilized words.

Again:

What's strong one way is weak in another.

What works for me might not work for you.

Always be open to suggestion, there may be a better way.

[flem]

Sayloc,

Since you need interpretation, I am telling Yu Shan that HE is an authority, and much like you, though I didn't specify the route to take (as you did by specifying san shou), that questions can be answered, by the individual in addition to the instructor. That it is IN MY OPIONION a good idea not to be so overwhelmed by a persons history/title that they cannot be questioned or wrong.
BTW, with respect to your post to "everyone else". I believe everyone responding to this thread is either a teacher or time-wise is qualified to teach. I believe them to be quite aware that stances are transitions, and of the one's present, they are all experienced in sparring, san shou, and fighting. What WE are discussing is the various pluses and minuses of a stance derived from two different sources. Yu Shan and 18 Elders seem to believe that because of their mantis history it doesn't need question, I disaggree, so get over it. When I respond to you, and you " Read my posts wrong", let me know, otherwise we're all big boys and can speak for ourselves, don't ya think?

[sayloc]

Flem

It seems we are in agreement. I dont think anyone should go by someone elses bio to make their decision on what works for them in a fighting situation.

Some of the teachers may not have fought san shou or lei tei since they have learned some of the stances in the posts here. So how would they know how they work? (one bar fight in the last two years doesnt help much either).

Some of the teachers may not fight the san shou or even teach the fighting so how do they know how it is going to work.

I am just making a suggestion that may help them on their path.

The only way to perfect fighting and to learn what wrks is to fight.

The white ape forms mainland and HK are great to teach these stances and transitions:)

[flem]

Sayloc,

By "bio" are you speaking in reference to the poster's bio, or to their MA history? Because if you're talking about the poster's bio, I am going a step further and suggesting that one should not simply take an instructor's advice, no matter how worthy. I think you're saying the same thing.
I agree about the San Shou (but outside the area of competition, though that can be included) and I also believe it MUST involve those outside one's own mind-set or style. Especially in today's society of cross-training. I was just telling someone "after witnessing a kick round house kicking another( and I know the kid, and he had no training what so ever), that when I was a kid there was no kicking-0, but with movies, and MA all over, kicking is common place. Any way, I'm saying that one should definitely spar full contact, and as many typesoof opponents as possible.
Also, just in case your speaking of the "poster's bio", I am fairly certain of the qualifications of those who have posted, beyond the info you can attain here.

[flem]

18 elders,

I just saw your post. Yes mantis is in tight, so can the mainland version, in your mind, have a place-perhaps before/or for closing the distance? Wing chung is a great style but it's footwork doesn't match mantis. As a general all around stance I still think one that is more open is best(more then Pong Lai's). The mainland version is good for training the legs and as an attack or lunge foreward. I can see the value of your's once the gap is closed. Of course this all depends on personal preference. One may just want to stand there and wait.
The funny thing to me is, your body type is so functional in the mainland stance. You don't seem to have as much trouble as others being mobile with it, much like Shang Wu.

[sayloc]

Flem

like I said we are in agreement.

I think just because my master has trained with 20 other masters it makes my stance any better for fighting. I have to do the fighting to find out what works for me. They can give great suggestions on what may work best for me. I still have to do the kung fu.

I am still interested in how many times any of the posters have used this particular stance in fighting full contact. I can step back and look at it all day and give numerous applications on how it may work but unless you are in there with soemone hitting you you will never really know. Kind of like back seat driveing if you know what i mean.

We all have to do the kung fu on our own and not just talk about it.

On that noteitis back to my workout:)

I may do white ape steals the peach next.

[yu shan]

shang wu

Apologize for assuming it was me, I have been misunderstood here before. I guess it is the way I type :D You should know I mean well, I come here to learn and share. I totally respect all that post here, some are teachers of mine and some are older KF brothers. This in itself should warrant respect. In my eyes, something this generation coming up LACKS! By golly, I`m trying my best to instill this on my young bucks, but it makes me crazy sometimes.

Hua Lin

Indeed sir, I couldn`t agree with you more!

Flem

Thank you for the vote of confidence. Sometimes I think I have been taught alot of martial treasures... then I think that I have only skimmed the surface. And yes I have questioned material taught to me. Somethings do not work well for me. Like this stance we are talking about, I have changed to better suit me, now I use it alot. But, only use in movement though. This is not a stance I use as stationary. Note, BYTT form. Threw that in to keep Bei happy.

[Hua Lin Laoshi]

Well I'm far from being an authority on this but:

18elders said: "the tightness of the stance is used to check, trap or attack your opponents front leg and also protect your groin. the extended stance doesn't offer this."

You may be correct in that the extended stance doesn't offer this but I believe in the context of the form you are using the extended version of the stance to trip your opponent (your lead leg behind his) with a waist chop motion or punch.

shang wu said: "the stance I think we are talking about is used in waist chopping so in the right place it is not vulnerable to a sweep"

See? It's all about using the right tools for the job.

flem said: "the Pong Lai version seems as though it could easily be "over run" with a lunge or charge forward"

I was thinking the opposite. Since their momentum is moving forward what braces them from a pulling action?

[18elders]

the close stance does the same in the waist chop as your thinking.

Flem , yes we question and then we are shown the difference to understand why we are doing it that way.
That is one of the great things about master shr, you can ask anything and he will show you.

As for changing the stance, i think you defeat the purpose of its use.

Wish more people would have come to train with master Shr when he was here.

[sayloc]

18

This master sher guy sounds like a great guy to train with. It is nice to ask a question and get a reply. That is the way it should work.

[18elders]

Yes it is nice to be able to ask questions and get answers.

[Hua Lin Laoshi]

Don't get me wrong, my stance is closer to what you guys do and I have a little trouble getting the extended version right. But I do see more balance and more tripping area available with the longer stance.

There seems to be more of a forward motion with your version rather than the twisting takedown motion needed for the app.

All in all neither one is right or wrong, just personal preference.

[flem]

Hua Lin,

I'm confused! Perhaps we're thinking of dfferent things.

18 Elders,

I agree with the purpose of an in-fighting stance is to remain tight-un exposed, but what about it's use from a distance, before the distance is bridged? Are you saying that another "ready posture is used, or are you using this same tight, in fighting posture before the range is closed?

Hua Lin,

I just re-read your post and I think I understand. You are assuming (I think), that the tight stancer has the ability to apply whatever skill they will use effectively, I'm assuming they are not. I feel like if two people are squared off to fight, that the tight stance would inhibit motion, well, I should say, a more open stance would allow a quicker change of position( if necessary).

[18elders]

yes, i wouldn't be in the jade ring stance until i was applying my technique. That is why i don't feel it is an uncomfortable stance, sure if your trying to hold it for 5 minutes to train your legs but if your in it for a split second there is no discomfort.

[Hua Lin Laoshi]

flem, my posts are directly related to the stance used in the waist chop as found in WASP. The tight stance (knee over toe) as seen in the picture of Master Shi that Tainan posted provides only the length of the thigh for tripping while the extended version (knee not over the toe) provides more area for trapping the legs for the takedown.

The extended version is, IMHO, a stronger brace for any pulling motion by your opponent (think tug-of-war).

Maybe we're not talking about the same thing. I get confused when too many names are thrown around.

[Three Harmonies]

I'm totally confused.....what do the White Anglo-Saxon Protestants have to do with Mantis???????? J/K!

:D