Lam Ga Kuen and Gee Sins Yong Chun Hung Kuen/Hwaquan

[Firehawk4]

From What i understand this system is supposed to come from a monk called Wong Qui (Choi Fung Si) or the Hai Fung Monk from the mountain that Lam Yui Kwai learned his Dragon boxing from , here are some forms that are supposed to be conected to this system Lohan Kuen (Lohans Boxing System) Mui Fa Sau (Plum Blossom Hands ) Sap Sei Yau (14 Movement Fist ) Ng Hang Fook Fu Kuen ( Five Element Taming The Tiger Form ) also a form called Ye Fu Chut Lam (Night Tiger Comes of Forest ) Wong Kiew Kit has this in his Tiger Crane form some other forms frm Lam Ga Kuen Meng Fu Ha Shan (Fiercest Tiger Comes Down The mountain) Sang Lung Wood Fu (Lively Dragon Vigorous Tiger ) also there is this old Sui lam Wing (Yong ) Chun that is connected to all of this that has a one handed form done with the left hand about 45 postures another form is called Cheung Duen Kiu/Kuen or Long and short bridge . allthis is to be connected to Chi Sim the Hai Fung Monk and Lam Yui Quai Dragon style master and is said to be the old Gee Sin Yong Chun/Hung Kuen/Hwaquan . i am trying to figure out what all this means ? At this link read where it says Lam Ga Kuen
http://forums.delphiforums.com/Taijimantis/messages/?start=Start+Reading+%3E%3E
http://shaolin-wahnam.tripod.com/shaolin/tiger-crane01.html

[Firehawk4]

For some reason this also is said to be connected to the Chi Sim Weng Chun system i read at that link on Lam Ga Kuen about Chu Chun Man a Weng Chun Master .

[Ben Gash]

My Hung Kuen Sigung does a Wing Chun System similar to the one you describe. Here are some pics and details from a related school's site.
http://www.mousavi.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/wingchun1.html
http://www.mousavi.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/wingchun2.html
http://www.mousavi.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/wingchun3.html

[Firehawk4]

Question 1
I noticed you had a webpage relating to "Mang Fu Ha San” at http://wongkk.com/review/mountain.html. I was wondering if this particular form was a form from your Hung Gar system. I would love to know a little of the history of your form if it is permissible.
David, USA


Answer 1
Your question will be valuable to those interested in the historical background of Hoong Ka Kungfu. Yes, you are right. Many of the patterns in the set “Mag Fu Ha San”, which means “Fierce Tiger Descends Mountain”, are taken from my Hoong Ka system, although we usually refer to our Hoong Ka system as Southern Shaolin.

The most famous lineage of the Hoong Ka or Hung Gar system today is that from the great kungfu master Wong Fei Hoong, who lived from 1847 to 1924, which was at the end of the Qing Dynasty and the beginning of the Republican period in China. But both Wong Fei Hoong and his successor Lam Sai Weng did not refer to their kungfu as Hoong Ka; they called it Shaolin.

It is also interesting to note that while all Hoong Ka exponents acknowledge that their system is called Hoong Ka after the great Shaolin master Hoong Hei Khoon, Wong Fei Hoong’s lineage leads back not to Hoong Hei Khoon but to another great Shaolin master Loh Ah Choi. Hoong Hei Khoon was the senior classmate of Loh Ah Choi under the Venerable Chee Seen, the abbot of the southern Shaolin Monastery at Nine Lotus Mountain in Fujian, and First Patriarch of Southern Shaolin Kungfu.

This fact that the source of Wong Fei Hoong’s lineage was Loh Ah Choi and not Hoong Hei Khoon, does not negate the claim by exponents of his lineage that their system is Hoong Ka, because the art practiced by Hoong Hei Khoon and Loh Ah Choi was the same.

As the three famous kungfu sets of Wong Fei Hoong were “Taming the Tiger”, “Tiger-Craane” and “Iron-Wire”, many people thought these were the only orthodox Hoong Ka sets. This is not so. When I was learning kungfu from Uncle Righteousness in Penang (in Malaysia) in the 1950s, there was a famous Hoong Ka master named Ng Siew Hoong, who was respectfully known as Hoong Pak, or “Elderly Uncle Hoong”. His famous Hoong Ka sets were “Four Gates” and “Tiger Claws”.

In the 1960s I heard of an old and much respected Hoong Ka master (whose name I cannot remember) in a remote part of Malaysia. His kungfu sets were “Fierce Tiger Descends Mountain”, “Night Tiger Emerges from Forest” and “Essence of Shaolin”.

I also learned “Four Gates” from my sifu, Sifu Ho Fatt Nam, and “Essence of Shaolin” from my sifu, Uncle Righteousness. My “Four Gates” is different from that taught by Elderly Uncle Hoong, but my “Essence of Shaolin” is the same as that taught by the other old Hoong Ka master, though there was no connection between that old master and Uncle Righteousness. “Four Gates” is reputed to be the fundamental set taught at the open square in the southern Shaolin Monastery, and “Essence of Shaolin” was the most advanced set taught to selected disciples.

[Firehawk4]

Nevertheless, the “Fierce Tiger Descends Mountains” (Mang Fu Ha San) shown in my webpage is not a classical set passed down by masters; it is a set consisting of various combat sequences composed by me. I choose the name “Fierce Tiger Descends Mountains” because it expresses well the philosophy, spirit and skills embodied in this set where the Single Tiger Claw and the Double Tiger Claws are used in qin-na (gripping) techniques.

It may be of interest to note that in our Shaolin Wahnam school, we do not learn any classical sets in our basic training programme, which consists of 12 levels of about 3 or 4 years of regular training, Kungfu sets like “Fierce Tiger Speeds Through Valley” and “Happy Bird Hops up Branch” are a result of our combat sequence training.

Although “Fierce Tiger Descends Mountain” is not at our basic stage but at our intermediate stage of training, it is also a result of our sparring practice. After this, we move to classical sets like “Four Gates”, “Five Animals”, “Tiger-Crane” and “Dragon and Tiger” at our intermediate stage, and to other classical sets like “Eighteen Lohans”, “Flower Set” and “Dragon’s Strength” at our advanced stage. At whatever stages, set practice is a means, and not an end, of our kungfu training.

[Firehawk4]

Question 2
I have a form of the same name from my late Sigung who would have learnt it in Toisan, between 1915 and 1940 perhaps. Ours appears to be a form passed from Leung Tien Chu of Toisan. He developed a Fut Gar system also known as Hung Tao Choy Mei (I think).


Answer 2
I do not know about Leung Tien Chu of Toisan, but he might be one of the masters from the lineage of Hoong Hei Khoon, or one of his classmates like Foong Sai Yoke and Wu Wai Thien. I believe that “Mang Fu Ha San” and “Ye Fu Chuit Lam” (“Fierce Tiger Descends Mountain” and “Night Tiger Emerges from Forest”) could be two of the few sets practiced by masters from the Hoong Hei Khoon lineage.

In his later years Hoong Hei Khoon taught Shaiolin Kungfu at “Siu Lam Hoong Kwoon” (Hoong School of Shaolin Kungfu) in Guangdong Province of south China. It was from Siu Lam Hoong Kwoon that the term Hoong Khuen (Hoong Kungfu) or Hoong Ka Khuen (Hoong Family Kungfu is derived.

Hoong Hei Khoon.s three most outstanding disciples were Hoong Mang Ting, Chow Yien Kit and Wu Ah Piew. Hoong Mang Ting was Hoong Hei Khoon’s son. Wu Ah Phiew was Wu Wai Thien’s son whom Hoong Hei Khoon adopted as his own son after Wu Wai Thien was killed by Ko Chun Choong, the military governor of Guangdong and Guangxi, and Pak Mei’s outstanding disciple. Hoong Mang Ting, using the Crane Style he learned from his mother Foong Chet Leong, and Wu Ah Phiew using mainly the Tiger Style he learned from Hoong Hei Khoon, joined effort to kill Pak Mei to avenge the burning of the southern Shaolin Monastery at Nine-Lotus Mountain.

The style of kungfu taught by Hoong Hei Khoon, which is now popularly known as Hoong Khuen or Hung Gar, became very famous in south China. In the early twentieth century kungfu masters from Toisan (a district capital in south China) and other parts of Guangdong spread Hoong Khuen to South-East Asia and North America. It would throw much light to the history of Hoong Khuen if your lineage traced back to one of these masters.

It is less likely that “Mang Fu Ha San” was passed doen by Fong Sai Yoke or Wu Wai Thien. Both died young (Fong Sai Yoke was killed by Pak Mei) and might not have any disciples. Both their specialty was “Mui Fa Khuen” (Plum Flower Set), more popularly known as “Fa Khuen” (Flower Set).

Fatt Ka (Fat Gar) Kungfu is similar to Hoong Ka Kungfu, except that the palm rather than the tiger claws are more frequently used. It is another style of Southern Shaolin Kungfu, probably transmitted by the Venerable Sam Tuck, one of Chee Seen’s disciples

[Firehawk4]

Question 3
My “Mang Fu Ha San” features numerous repetitions of the left Cat Stance and left outstretched palm. Photo number 26 from the top is featured in our form, but is preceded with a wide circular block with both hands at once while cross stepping to the right, finished with this photo.

The move where it appears you leap into the air and change stances, then punch to the side, we also do. I would say that from looking at the pictures, 80-90% of the moves could be identical to moves in my form. The sequence is different and I may be mistaken with stationary photos. But the possibility seems likely of a connection. Please forgive any mistaken assumptions on my part.


Answer 3
We too have a lot of left Cat Stance, which we called False-Leg Stance, and left outstretched palm, which we often use to “ask the way”, that is to test the opponent’s skills and reaction as well as to cover his hands or open his defence in preparation for an attack.

Photo number 26 that you have mentioned is the very pattern “Mang Fu Ha San” (Fierce Tiger Descends Mountain). This pattern is performed like what you have described. There are many applications for this pattern. The one practiced in this set is to lock the opponent’s arm and grip his collar bone or vital points from behind. This set is also called “Mang Fu Ha San”.

It is no surprise that 80-90% of the moves in our two sets are similar, though the sequences are different, because we come from the same source – the Venerable Chee Seen of the Southern Shaolin Monastery. Your lineage could be traced to Hoong Hei Khoon or one of his classmates. My lineage is traced to the Venerable Yarng Yein. All these masters were disciples of Chee Seen. My other lineage issued from the Venerable Jiang Nan, a classmate of Chee Seen at the Quanzhou Shaolin Monastern

[Firehawk4]

http://wongkk.com/answers/ans03b/dec03-2.html

[Firehawk4]

It has some old Hung kuen forms at this school
http://www3.telus.net/TraditionalKungFu/webpage.html
Hung Gar Hand forms old Hung gar
Chow's form (Jau Ga Kuen)
2.Plum Flower form (Daai Do Mooi Fa Kuen)
3.Six way form (Luk Jeung Ha Gong Naam)
4.Black tiger (Hak Foo Kuen)
5.Big Buddha (Daai Loh Hon Kuen)
6.Iron wire form(Tit Sin Kuen

[Ben Gash]

Different, must be some Hung Men Kuen "village" style.

[David Jamieson]

Hung is so wide and varied but although sometimes techniques are sometimes only found in one or two derivations of it, there is plenty that is shared by all.

[YuanZhideDiZhen]

Originally posted by Firehawk4
Nevertheless, the “Fierce Tiger Descends Mountains” (Mang Fu Ha San) shown in my webpage is not a classical set passed down by masters; it is a set consisting of various combat sequences composed by me. I choose the name “Fierce Tiger Descends Mountains” because it expresses well the philosophy, spirit and skills embodied in this set where the Single Tiger Claw and the Double Tiger Claws are used in qin-na (gripping) techniques.


there is another famous form from china that has been taught by Iyip Mann and his students since before the big fight. it, too, is called 'tiger running down the mountain' and has become part of Chan Pui's Wah Lum system. this particular form has been adopted by every tiger based/derived system since Iyip started teaching it. some hung fot and hung gar folks know it also -its that famous.

[Firehawk4]

Are refering to Yip Man the Wing Chun Master if so where did he learn this form ?

[8stepbeginner]

Firehawk,

I'm a little confused..are you saying that there is a link between Dragon style kung fu and Hung Ga? Thanks

8stepbeginner

[chasincharpchui]

Firehawk,

I'm a little confused..are you saying that there is a link between Dragon style kung fu and Hung Ga? Thanks

8stepbeginner

wats with diggin up an old thread

[8stepbeginner]

Chasin,

What's wrong with "digging" up an "old thread"?


I'm new to the forum and it caught my eye..

[Erasmus Mingatt]

Firehawk,


Your thread is very interesting and I am excited to re-read it.

However please explain the term Yong Chun Hung Kuen/Hua Kuen?

Are you saying that this is a hybrid between Wing Chun/Hung Ga and Hua(flower) fist?

I was speaking to a fellow about a month ago(a sifu) regarding a posting someone has started about the origins of "Ching Nin Kuen"(youth fist--a 2 man set) since Master Bucksam Kong lists it in his Hung Ga curriculum.

This fellow(a sifu in Northern Shaolin) told me that Youth Fist is derived from "Hua(flower) fist. It would seem that Master Kong incorporated this Northern set in his school. This in and of itself is fascinating because GM Wong Kiew Kit makes the claim that many believe that Wing Chun is a modification of Hua Kuen.

Amazing how some of these arts can be so circular in their evolution from beginning to end eh?

All the best,
EM

[Firehawk4]

Alot of the information on Gee Sin Yong Chun/Hung Kuen/Hwaquan came from Mantis108 on these boards ,he says Chi Sims or Gee Sins Yong Chun Hwaquan is a art that was taught to the Hakka in the late 1700 century and this Wong Kui or Hai Feng Monk taught this and other styles of martial arts of Shaolin to the Hakka and other people on Lou Fo Sho Mountian Lam Yiu Kwai s Lam Ga that his Father learned was from these arts like the old Gee Sin Yong Chun wich from what i was told is the Hwaquan old Flower boxing style Mantis108 has said that and so has Wong Kiew Kitt there is a style of Wing Chun wich is called Weng Chun wich is suppossed to be this old Yong Chun of Chi Sims flower boxing style or Hwaquan , Inother wards what is known as Chi Sim Weng Chun is the old Hwaquan Flower boxing art or atleast derived from it , The Hwaquan art and Chi Sim Weng Chun are simmilar to Hung Gar but alot came from this monk called Hai Fung or Wong Qu on Lou Fo Shan Mountain the Hai Fung Monk new alot of forms and arts from Shaolin like the Lo Han style Wong Kiew Kitt has said that Hung Kuen as we know it is derived from Lohan and other arts from Shaolin that these monks practiced . Then there is the Wing Chun that is supposed to come from Ng Mui that is different than Chi Sim Weng Chun but it just might be that there was maybe Snake and Crane from the Five Animals style of Shaolin that was put into a new style that we know today as Wing Chun along with other things from Shaolin or mabe Fukien White Crane and some other Snake stle had something to do with the developement of Ng Miu s Wing Chun ,But Chi Sim Weng Chun and Ng Muis Wing Chun are related because they have certian techniques that are in both systems and concepts and principles .

[jmd161]

When you see any Ye Fu (night tiger) sets within Hung Kuen, these are Hak Fu Mun sets. Always interesting to see the lineages with Night Tiger sets. It's known that Wong Fei Hung and his father both knew Black Tiger, but these non Wong Fei Hung lineages lead to the rumor that Hak Fu Mun preceeded Hung Kuen, and was part of the Shaolin temple advanced curriculm.


jeff:)

[PM]

hello Jeff - check out this "Night Tiger", and let me know if you know any more details!

http://naamkyun.com/2012/05/night-tiger-emerges-from-the-forest-a-rare-set-of-old-hung-kyun/

[jmd161]

hello Jeff - check out this "Night Tiger", and let me know if you know any more details!

http://naamkyun.com/2012/05/night-tiger-emerges-from-the-forest-a-rare-set-of-old-hung-kyun/

Hey Pavel,

I did know a little something about that form but, it has slipped from my memory... I can check around and see what I can come up with but, I haven't been into researching stuff for some yrs now! I can ask my sifu when I see him again...

[PM]

ok, cool, thnx!

[Xian]

I am from Chi Sim Weng Chun.

We have in our Curiculuum:

Fa Kuen (The Fa Kuen was shared by Chu Chung Man Sigung, only Chu and todays Lo Family practitioners learn this form and even between this two the form differs in execution.
Dai Fa Kuen
Sap Yat Kuen
Saam Pai Fut
Jong Kuen(this form also has a short ground section)
Three Wooden Dummy Forms according to Heaven,Man,Earth
Look Dim Boon Kwan(Kind a different set from other Wing Chun poleforms and I have seen a lot)
Wu Dip Do(based on Yum Yeung principle)
Kwun Jong

There are some specialities to this forms. For example If you know how you can apply all the forms to the Dummy or the pole or the butterfly swords.



Kind regards,
Xian