Pro-Am Wing Tschun institute - any good? Heard of it?

[Sharky]

have you ever heard of pro am wing tschun? Here's the webby http://www.wingtchun.demon.co.uk/frame.html - is it some modified stuff or are they cool? It seems a bit fishy but i dunno - they say they are international, so are they real? Or is it a cross breed made by a "Master" like in 1986 or something?

The cardiff (where i am atm) Mobile phone number is not in use however.... I tried main office number and its closed atm, they open 9-5 and it's 7:25 now. If that's the right office at all.....

Any help would be good cheers

All i wanted was some RICE CAKES! Now? WE MUST BATTLE.

[Sharky]

they are in loadsa places around the globe - except the usa... but still has anyone heard of them? Puh-leeease

All i wanted was some RICE CAKES! Now? WE MUST BATTLE.

[Martial Joe]

I dont know the answer...Go check it out,see for yourself...


PS...I left you a message on the other forum...

http://www.stopstart.fsnet.co.uk/smilie/lolup.gif IXIJoe KaveyIXIhttp://www.stopstart.fsnet.co.uk/smilie/lolup.gif
I am Sharky's main man...

[popsider]

Isn't that Nick Smart's organisation. I think I am correct in saying they are from Leung Ting's lineage, and that they adopt a non-traditional, or modern, approach to training. I am sure I've seen it say that on their web site anyway.

Oh and your email address don't work Sharky

[Sharky]

yeah it is nick smarts org mate. did you want to email me? i think i just updated my profile correctly - if not, email eshakarchi@hotmail.com, you can catch me there. I'd look forward to getting a mail from you.

Do you or does anyone else know anymore about this organisation? ie - is it legit? I will give them a call in a bit...

All i wanted was some RICE CAKES! Now? WE MUST BATTLE.

[Sharky]

puh-leeeease.... i need an answer quick

All i wanted was some RICE CAKES! Now? WE MUST BATTLE.

[Haggis]

Sharky,
PAWTO is a genuine org, with good credentials. The principal instructor is indeed Nick Smart, who is both an excellent wing (t)chun man and teacher. There are clubs throughout the UK, including Cardiff. I believe the instructor there is called Marc Baker.

PAWTO teaches all the traditional aspects of WC, but with an emphasis on practicality, and a minimum of BS. If you want to train, you won't be disappointed.
Hope this is helpful.

By the way, that website is out of date. One of the clubs in the org has a website which is quite good, www.norfolk-wingtchun.co.uk (http://www.norfolk-wingtchun.co.uk)

Cheers,
Haggi

[chi sau]

hello sharky
i train in nick smarts organisation and obviously would be a biased but i have observed a few other different branches of wing chun and have to say with nick smart you get the real thing with no bulls**t .
like everything you have to start at the beginning but it is a very well organised and fairly run organisation
i would recommend you check them out

[Sharky]

i just checked out a lesson. It was the worst thing i had ever seen. There was a dude that couldn't stand properly, couldn't punch to save his life, and was doign chi sau and chum kiu etc. I was like how long have u been training, and he goes like "just over four years". My jaw dropped. Everyone in the class was clue cless as was the money grabbing instructor - turns up 10 mins late, finishes 5 mins early (it's a 1h lesson!) and the first thing he says is "has everybody paid?". It was the worst thing i have ever seen. I was fuming in there, i just wanted to give the instructor a beat down for cheating these people. They are thick as **** too for staying there for four years. Oh my god, you really do have to have seen this - i can't convey it in words. You should have seen the defence for a hook that they were teaching. OMG OMG OMG :mad:

If anyone knows anyone teaching closed door in cardiff, i will give them sexual favours for them to teach me.

Stay away from this pile of crap.

All i wanted was some RICE CAKES! Now? WE MUST BATTLE.

[Watchman]

I'm sorry, but I just had to LOL! :D

[Sharky]

**** off :)

man, you would have loved being there so much. the fat instructor dude was a tit.

Things bugged me since yesterday. I phoned him, and i asked about when and where. When i asked him if it was modified (you saw what the web page said) he goes "not really" - so i go what lineage is your wing chun, and he goes "you can trace all out roots back to yip man, but don't worry yourself about that stuff". And there were only 2 one hour lessons a week (!). Anyway.

I went into the place and saw some people in there practicing sil lum tao (badly) and so i though i'd go in. I walked in and saluted (is that what you call it? right fist in left palm, u get me yeh) like i would in any kwoon, and everyone looked at me like i was a freak. Nevermind, i'll just take a seat. "Oh" i thought, the beginners must have turned up early - good to see that the beginners were eager. SO. I waited till 8:13pm (was supposed to start at 8) and this fat dude with an old dirty tshirt and dirty greasy hair walks in. I thought wtf!?!? THAT is the teacher?! Nah, give him a chance, he may be amazing. I continued to observe the "beginners" and saw that not one sole in there could either stand, punch, move or even wank correctly. Then i saw this punk doing chum kiu and later dan chi sau! He was tense and couldn't flow AT ALL, neither could his partner who he was "teaching". I was like wtf?!?! The lesson had *NO* structure to it, things didn't change when the so called "instructor" came in he just went around and "corrected" people - but he was ******* stupid, and i nearly told him that to his face.

The group of people as a whole were a sorry sight, a collection of geeks and other social rejects. The instructor man came over at the beginning to talk to me (after sorting out everyones money, of course) and then just walked around the class "correcting" people. There is NO WAY i can convey how bad it was. However bad you think it is, it's 2093840925893476394 times worse. I could have taken a better class, i swear to god.

I am in such a stress, i'm gonna go back to my room at home and seeing as everyones out (i sacrificed a night on the pull to see this class) i'm gonna beat my wallbag ****less. All i wanna do is learn wing chun ffs. Watchman can i fly over and then you can teach me yeah? :rolleyes:

I might try going to china town (it's miles away) and asking if anyone teaches kung fu round there. I've been missing my jj lessons, but i'm gonna resume them from now on.

I'm not sure whether i'm angry or if it's funny :confused: :confused:

All i wanted was some RICE CAKES! Now? WE MUST BATTLE.

[Watchman]

but at the unprofessionalism of the instructor. If my sifu heard that I showed up to teach a class late (even by a minute), he'd stand me against a wall and use me for Biu Kwan practice.

Like I mentioned to you in your thread on the main forum, I don't know anything about Nick Smart or his organization. It wouldn't hurt to email your comments to Mr. Smart and let him know your impressions.

Who knows? It may of been one of those flukes where you happened to show up on a particularly bad night.

P.S. I don't know about you coming all the way over here to train, as there are plenty of guys that are a lot better than I am. ;)

I truly hope you find something over there.

[lausan]

I remember Nick Smart teaching in my area,and also had a friend who went on to become an instructor in WT.From what I can remember is that the style being taught was technicaly very good and effective.The classes were well structured and taught in a very disiplined maner.
I know Nick broke away from Leung Ting due to political reasons,and went on his own.
The instructor you are talking about sounds far from perfect,but I doubt that he represents the association as a whole.Every style has bad apples(including Instructors).You can't rubbish a style or organisation on one observation!
It annoys me how people on this forum try to call the shots and rubbish other styles after seeing one class.

Lausan :mad:

[Martin Foot]

I think your missing the point.
If one, as head of a martial arts association sanctions an individual to instruct for your organisation, then that individual dose in fact represent the organisation as a whole. An organisation can only be as good as it's weakest link. I think you can get a good Idea of this particular organisations quality by looking at the
website
http://www.wingtchun.demon.co.uk/index.html
Click the bottom left hand corner link "interested in teaching" and then check out duration "between six months and one year" need I say anymore. This has been Nick Smarts approach as far as I've been aware of him over the years through the martial arts press.
As far as I'm concerned Sharky has a right to express his opinion, as it's based on his own personal experience of observing this particular class, and unfortunately for the students of that particular class, I've gat a feeling he's probably right.

[old jong]

I wonder how much they charge for this "teacher" course?...Not that I'm interrested! :eek:
This looks more like it!...I hope! (http://www.wingchun.co.uk/) ;)

Les paroles s'envolent.
Les écrits restent!...

[Abstract]

"...If anyone knows anyone teaching closed door in cardiff, i will give them sexual favours for them to teach me. Stay away from this pile of crap."

THAT was hysterical...yo man i feel your pain. Hang in there, yo. Hopefully you'll find something soon..! :( ;)

-------------------------
In mildness is the strength of steel

[Sihing73]

Hi Sharky,

I can sympathize with your plight. I joined the Army in order to learn Wing Chun. I took the station of choice option and could pick three places, I would get one but not necessarily my first pick ;) . Anyhow, I ended up in the Seattel area and began my journey, which is still going. Of course, after I joined the Army they did open up a Wing Chun school in Philly :mad:

Anyhow, I am not familiar with London so I am not sure if the following link will be of much help. But take a look at it and see if any schools are near you. I am sure there are other options as well.

As to your most recent experience, All lineages have poor instructors. Just look at me, LOL. Still, there may also be a goldmine to be found within the system you looked at. Of course, there could also be a lot of dross.

Anyhow heres the link:

http://www.wingchun.org/text/schools/eng/england.html

Peace,

Dave

[Sharky]

thanks guys.

As an "organisation" and/or "institute" you should have some way of policing the quality of your instructors and their lessons. THis was the worst thing i have ever seen. After 4 years you should be a ******* hard nut. It was awful.

Old jong, that wing chun link you gave me is indeed good. I've already checked it out - i'm in south wales right now, so i went to the wales section, and i even phoned the instructor and had a really good 10/15 minute chat with him about wing chun, and how far along the system i was etc. He was really nice, but it's just too far away. He thinks i'm coming to a lesson tonight, but my sister says it's 30-40 mins away by car - and i don't have a car. I'm going to phone him again and ask if he knows anyone closer, and that i really want to learn wc, but simply can't make it there. It's in brigend in carntown, and i'm in cardiff. It's really annoying cos i know this dude is good, the whole organisation is well documented and also well respected.

Do you think it's cheeky if i phone up and ask if he knows of anyone closer?

All i wanted was some RICE CAKES! Now? WE MUST BATTLE.

[Dave Farmer]

Though not my Direct lineage, I know Shaun and his association and the quality and approach are excellent.

Regards

Dave F

'wing chun men do it with sticky hands'

[old jong]

Hey Sharky.
Traveling 40 minutes is not a big deal.You could arrange for private lessons,maybe one or twice a month take the bus or whatever and have great teaching.You can always train like a maniac at home!
If you are serious with your wing chun,you don't need to be supervised in a regular class.
After a while,teach a good friend to practice with!...Or... girlfriend! ;) ;) ;)

Les paroles s'envolent.
Les écrits restent!...

[Big Vern]

hello sharky, it is a shame that you were so put off by the instructor in cardiff.
i am a senior coach with this organisation, and have trained with master nick smart and master milan prosenica (full contact champion) for 11 years. during this time i have experienced wing chun/tsun/tchun all around the UK. i have made a choice from my experience to represent pawto for their modern and progressive teaching system, and their departure form kwoon style manners. these concepts are not new to the m.a.'s, everyone has tried it at some point, it suits us and our student base to be thinking of tomorrow and not the reverse. i feel that the character u are speaking of is not someone i am familiar with and i will probably investigate further.
your points should be forwarded to master n.smart e-mail him via his website.

[Dave Farmer]

I agree Old Jong.

I still travel 2 hrs to train with my Sifu.

I also Used to take a 10 hour round trip twice a month to train with Sam Kwok in Blackpool.

I guess it's how much you want it.

Another way to remember what is being taught (particularly in private lessons) is to Video the session.

Sharky, Could'nt you find someone nearby who also wants to train and share the travel costs?

Regards

Dave F

'wing chun men do it with sticky hands'

[kj]

I agree with Old Jong and woodenman69 - if the instructor is worth it to you, find a way. When you exceed more than 6 hours flight time each way, plus drive time and layovers to see your teacher, then I'll probably seem more sympathetic. ;) Great teachers are hard to come by, and well worth some inconvenience if you are lucky enough to find one.

Regards,
- kj

[dzu]

Hi Kathy Jo,

How often do you get to train with Ken? Does your group fly Ken out to Rochester or do you alone fly out to train with Ken a couple times a year?

regards,

Dzu

[kj]

Both. I generally see him 3-4 times a year, more if it's a lucky year. And do my best to maintain close contact and exchange with him and others in our group in between. The rest is trying to find enough time for the work between visits, which is always a challenge with so much that needs doing. :)

[This message was edited by kj on 10-18-01 at 02:53 PM.]

[Sharky]

It took me a couple of hours to get there, but hell, it was worth it! This was the best lesson i have ever had, it was in the middle of no where, but boy, this is one quality school. The south wales wing chun place, man, the teacher sifu jones, he teaches NO CRAP and this is the real thing. I am so glad i've found this place.

More good news is that he had a chat with one of the senior students who lives quite close to me and now i can get a lift with them each lesson! Jackpot eh? All the students were really great guys, and quite advanced. It's quite a hidden place though... it's like the lesson should have been 2hrs long but we all stuck around for like 2 1/2 hrs practicing and stuff. We are trying to find another venue so that we can practice on more nights, but i'm definately going to phone that advanced student and get some chi sau practice in - god **** man i need it! It's a really great place, where yip chun comes and gives seminars (so you know it's not bullsh*t), and they are really into telling you why everything works and stuff. For the gradings, you have to submit essays on certain subjects of wing chun set by sifu, it's great man.

big vern, regarding pro am. No. i don't reckon the whole institute is of such quality. However i DO think that it's nick smarts responsibility to check the quality of his schools. There was a student of 3 months at my new school, and i swear to god, he was infinately better than that 4 year dude we spoke of. It's not my responsibility to email nick smart - i will try if i have the time, but i don't - i hardly ever come on here as it is...

Anyway i gotta lecture now (see), gotta go... BYE! ;)

ps - i'm getting broadband cable installed into my student house (in my bedroom) - yippee!

All i wanted was some RICE CAKES! Now? WE MUST BATTLE.

[old jong]

I'm really happy you found such a good place. Now,it's in your hands! :)
I wish you all the best in your study :)

Les paroles s'envolent.
Les écrits restent!...

[Watchman]

See what perseverance gets you?

[Sharky]

broadband? :D

All i wanted was some RICE CAKES! Now? WE MUST BATTLE.

[popsider]

Sifu Jones is a student of Shaun Rawcliffe.

Shaun Rawcliffe is legitimate so it doesn't surprise me that Sifu Jones is good. The first thing Rawcliffe does when you come to class is show you a folder detailing all his training - from early days to his current instructor - he doesn't hide anything (unless he hides it so well I don't know). I don't care what people say - lineage is important - if people are cagey about their lineage, who they learnt from and for how long, then be wary.

[popsider]

I mean the first class you come to, he doesn't keep showing you the folder every lesson, that would be silly.

[Dave Farmer]

Unfortunately though sharky, Ip Chun announced that he won't be visiting the U.K anymore as he's starting to slow down at 75, and wants to travel less.

I'm just glad I got to see him a few times over the years.

Glad You've got yourself sorted.

Dave F

'wing chun men do it with sticky hands'

[Sharky]

yeah i know he said that man, but sifu jones said that he's spoken to him and reckons he can muster up one more go ;)

All i wanted was some RICE CAKES! Now? WE MUST BATTLE.

[Dave Farmer]

Hope so.

Dave F.

'wing chun men do it with sticky hands'