Judo throws vs. Mantis throws

[phantom]

Could somebody tell me what is the general differnce between the throws of judo and those of mantis? I suspect that judo's would be more geared toward an opponent who is wearing an article of clothing on his upper body? Thanks in advance.

[Hua Lin Laoshi]

I'm sure there are people here that know more about this than I do but as I understand it Judo was basically designed as a sport version of Jiu Jitsu. Due to that fact the throws aren't meant to really injure or cripple.

Mantis throws are designed to drop you in ways that inflict damage.

[sayloc]

Many Judo throws are designed for use with a gi top but there are many that do not require a gi also.

Judo is a very in depth system based only on throwing and grappling. There are over 240 throws and countless holds, joint locks and chokes. The throws are classified into hip, leg, arm and sacrifice (there may be a couple more catragories that I have forgotten).

In Judo you spent the majority of the time standing trying to get the opponent to the ground. It is very effective once you get to the ground also. Even in sport judo choke outs and joints dislocation are legal if the opponent does not submit.

The judo seems to have a much more in depth approach to throwing and grappling than mantis systems. Do a search on this site and you will find the subject brought up but there is not much on replies .

It would be better to compare Chinese shuai jiao (not sure on the spelling) to judo .

There are a couple of two person sets in judo.

Have a good day

[SaMantis]

Interesting info, sayloc!

I studied judo very briefly in college, long enough for an introduction to the art and some basic throws & grappling techs.

Comparing that experience with my mantis studies, I see some similarities. However, as Hua Lin Laoshi points out, mantis throws (like many of its offensive techniques) are designed to inflict maximum damage.

In both judo & mantis, two important tactics are to (a) unbalance/uproot your opponent, then (b) exploit it. Because judo is a sport, exploiting the opponent means putting him onto the ground so that the judge sees your move was effective. Done right, you get the full point and the fight is over. In a combat system, exploiting the opponent's unbalanced position means inflicting damage so he doesn't get up -- the fight is over, and unfortunately sometimes so is the opponent.

I agree, judo goes much more in-depth with throws & grappling than other systems, but then that's its goal. The emphasis on randoori as a critical training tool, so students see how their 1-2-3 techniques work "on the mat," also sets it apart from many CMA systems. And although its techniques are designed to inflict
minimum damage, they can be compared with the techniques of combat-oriented systems. The methods may be similar, but the goals are different.

[Three Harmonies]

Since few seem to be piping up I will offer my two cents worth. I am no expert, but love the grappling arts and sort of focus on those all the time. Every technique I teach ends in some sort of take down and / or lock.
Everything said above is correct. But if I may make a suggestion... throws should be categorized in one of three areas; archs / circles / spirals. Regardless of style these constitute every throw possible. I also caution against classifying throws as being Judo, or Wing Chun, or whatever. EVERY style has takedowns and throws. FACT. The difference comes in with teachers. Do they know the grappling arts, and if they do, do they teach them? I surrounded myself with people who had like minded attitudes when it came to grappling, Hu Xi Lin and Tim Cartmell are both grappling experts on several different levels. They teach these applications regardless of form or skill level.
That being said their are certain throws that are created by a Judo player and used primarily by judo guys, the gi throws and grabs are an example. While you find those throws useful with gis (or Hero skin jackets from Shuai Chiao), they are not as useful to a street situation. So every style has disctinct flavor as to their throwing. Xing Yi for example has almost no reaping throws or anything like that, more like Kao Die, knockdowns. Very hard effective and quick. None of them involve grabbing the shirt or jacket of someone.
Mantis is no different. Analyze your sets, and techniques. Ask your teacher. If he cannot explain what takedowns and throws are in the system, you may want to think about that. Fact is majority of fights end up in the grappling range. You not only need to train throws for offensive purposes, but you also need to know how to prevent getting thrown.
So how are they different? Very little difference. Focus on gi grabs more in Judo. Also Mantis is similar in it's takedowns being less dramatic with shoulder throws and what not, but they are still in there. I teach them to my guys. But overall a throw is a throw. YOu have to have the proper body mechanics, and leverage or the throw will not work. Period! Regardless of style.
I highly suggest "Effortless Combat Throws" by Tim Cartmell. It is required reading to even my Mantis students.
For those interested both Hu Xi Lin and Tim Cartmell are coming to Albuquerque soon for seminars, contact me ASAP for more info. Sorry for the shameless plug!
Jake :D

[mantis108]

I totally agreed. The analysis on Xingyi takedown as Kao Die (knock down) pretty much nails it. I agreed mantis share same characteristics when it comes to this. I also echoes the point that if you want to sharpen the grappling side of things, you must surround yourselves with like minded people in order to train.

One thing of note is that mantis classically has grappling tech done with clothing (ie sleeve, lapel, pants, etc). It is a street arts after all. But who would want to do that to your nice expensive skill performing costum. ;) (**** those silk PJs) :D lol

I think one element that needs to be stressed is that breakfalling and rolling is an integral and crucial skill that needs to be polished over and over. Judo can affort to have spectacular throws is because of this. It is very intimidating if this basic yet crucial skill is not mastered.

The other crucial area is drilling. When drilling your mantis combination, make sure there is aliveness and make sure interaction is resistive rather than cooperative.

I also 200% agreed with the fact that there is no such a thing as Judo throw, Karate throw and/or mantis throws. There many be different approach leading into the throw but a throw is throw.

Mantis108

PS Jake, a nice text book pitch btw! :D I wish more people should own the book.

[sayloc]

Good point about the falling 108.

It doesnt matter what kind of throw, if you are dropped on the pavement and do not have any experience falling there is a good chance you are going to end up with a smashed skull, elbow or hip.

I teach my students it is just as important to take a fall as it is to be able to throw (after all we all fall down in some point in our lives even if we dont fight).

I teach my falls based of of Judo/jujutsu principles.

Does any of the mantis systems have a systemized approach to teaching falls?

I have had some instruction with it in mantis but always go back to the judo/jujutsu techniques.

[Knifefighter]

Originally posted by Hua Lin Laoshi
I'm sure there are people here that know more about this than I do but as I understand it Judo was basically designed as a sport version of Jiu Jitsu. Due to that fact the throws aren't meant to really injure or cripple.

Mantis throws are designed to drop you in ways that inflict damage. Judo was designed to be a more effective version of traditional Japanese Jujutsu. Because the techniques of traditional JJ were "too deadly" to be practiced full force, they never were. Jiguro Kano believed that if less "deadly" techniques could be practiced at 100% against reisisting opponents, they would be more effective than the "too deadly" ones that couldn' actually be practiced full force.

The end result was a tournament between the best of the new Judo players and the top traditional JJ practitioners to determine which system would be the official style taught to the Tokyo police. The new Judo system pretty much crushed the older, more traditional JJ and their techniques that were "too deadly to practice because they were designed to maim and kill."

[Knifefighter]

Originally posted by Three Harmonies
While you find those throws useful with gis (or Hero skin jackets from Shuai Chiao), they are not as useful to a street situation.:D Last time I checked, most people on the street were wearing clothes.




Originally posted by Three Harmonies
But overall a throw is a throw. Most throws come from a series of setups. The difference between someone who can pull of a throw and someone who can't is knowing the various set-ups.

[Three Harmonies]

Trying grabbing t shirt like you would a gi! Dave Pickens had a good story about doing that and ripping the guys shirt, while exposing his back! Not a good idea.
Jake

[Michael Dasargo]

To my knowledge and experience, mantis takedowns, such as White Ape Falls in Hole, Threading Needle Chopping Waist, and Reaping Leg, utilizes demolition steps (Beng Bu) to crash into and displace the opponents weight (massive linear momentum = I). The efficacy of the throw is further enhanced by Tie Kao (tag and lean = V) which further displaces the opponents weight in two directions.

The momentum of these forces combined displaces the opponents weight in various directions thus uprooting the opponent. ( I + V = Y, whereas I represents the destabilization of the opponents root, and V represents a pull and push)

(I) is dependant on the structural integrity of the posture with momentum

(V) = (a) push, + (b) pull whereas

(a) = may be produced by any part of the body
(b) = captures any extremity (including the head)

These principles allow the Mantis Boxer to stay rooted while brutally throwing an opponent down and out.

The Mantis Boxing system was designed for the battlefield, so it is only logical to assume that no takedown composed of single leg or stationary postures, and that TLQ throws are designed to immediately respond to consecutive threats.

Hope this helps,
M.Dasargo

[Pilot]

Judo = Grab and throw.

Mantis = Break things along the way.
:)

[Knifefighter]

Originally posted by Pilot
Judo = Grab and throw.

Mantis = Break things along the way.
:) That's what the traditional JJ guys thought before they got smoked by Kano's Kodokan Judo guys.

[Oso]

you guys that don't think a judoka can break your **** on the way down need to randori some.

same same

when I teach throws I utilize judo and jujitsu explanations I've learned along the way because I think they offer a little simpler and clearer approach to learning to throw.

[Knifefighter]

Although it does happen occassionally, it's actually extremely hard to "break something on the way down" against someone who is halfway conditioned and has any skill at all.

[sayloc]

I agree, you dont "break things on the way down". It is the abrupt stop at the end that breaks things.

Oso would probably agree that even a basic hip throw can injure a person who is conditioned but does not know proper falling techniques.

Here is a test for every one. Stand on your driveway then jump up as far as you can try to level off at about 3 feet or so and fall flat on your back. Lets see what happens.

Have a good day.

:)

[shirkers1]

Once again knifefighter and his vast helpful info!!! Hmm maybe this thread will get shut down just like all of mine because of him?

Since you are the expert, why don't you tell us exactly how tactically and technically JUDO throws are different from MANTIS throws? Since that is what the thread is asking. I mean for you to chime in and give a knowledgeable response you would have to have a background in both somewhat right? hmmm what mantis training do you have again?


Like jake said there is only so many ways to do a tactic right no matter what the style is. I’ve watched mr cartmell’s vids and he explains the arch/ circle/spirals very well and it makes sense. Just like straight line or hookline attacks when striking.

Mantis tends to use throws that tie the opponent up so he lands in an awkward position causing more damage on impact. Or breaks that lead to throws if the opponent gives in to the momentum. The breaks happen before the throw if the opponent doesn't give in to the momentum. The mantis throws are tricky like I said because the opponent is tied up so he can't break his fall easily. With the constant hooking of the legs and sweeps mantis utilizes upper and lower body sticking at the same time and a lot of the throws involve striking to deliver the throw instead of a grapple alone.

[Oso]

guess i need to clarify:

i got the feeling that people think judo is not capable of doing damage to someone with it's throws.

Judo is just as capable as mantis is of doing damage all else being equal

if the person is conditoined to take a fall...less damage.

if the person is skilled at grappling...the will not be as likely to get damaged from locking/breaking attempts.

no one style corners the market on anything.

[-N-]

Originally posted by shirkers1
The mantis throws are tricky like I said because the opponent is tied up so he can't break his fall easily. With the constant hooking of the legs and sweeps mantis utilizes upper and lower body sticking at the same time... Dip Jang/Jau can be done this way. Elbow striking the head while opponent's arms are trapped and you hyperextend his elbow and break his foundation for the takedown. So there is an attempt at elbow break/tear with the takedown, and it is difficult to breakfall.

One of my students had 30+ years experience in japanese martial arts. ~20 in Japan after he moved there so he could learn the real deal. His main teacher was hard core old school Aiki-Jitsu. This was before Jitsu became Do. Anyway, my friend found our Mantis way of setting up and executing Dip Jang to be more vicious and effective than the various ones he had done in Japan. And he was the type that had no problem going from school to school asking to be "taught a lesson".

Waist chop in 7 star stance can tear the ACL if the person resists. It's happened in class before.

N.

[-N-]

Originally posted by Oso
if the person is skilled at grappling...the will not be as likely to get damaged from locking/breaking attempts.

no one style corners the market on anything. Yep!

N.

[shirkers1]

OSO I don't think anyone is saying one is better than the other, accept for knifefighters responses about jj and judo. Or that one is the end all be all. We all, well most of us know that. The question at hand is how judo throws differ from mantis. So that is what I based my response on.

[Three Harmonies]

Shirkers
Save your breath with Knifefighter. He just wants to argue!
Jake

[shirkers1]

Thanks jake.

I was just hoping to once get a technical response regarding mantis from him since he likes to post on mantis so much. :)

[Oso]

ok...my .02 on the 'difference' is that there is none.

now, I'll bow to both KF and Sevenstar (and others) on this since my judo is minimal (first 8 throws)

but the primary thing in judo is to affect their kazushi (balance)

judo does this mainly with off balances from pushing/pulling or manipulation of the center with positioning changes.

mantis does this too but employs striking as well to accomplish the same thing.

japanese jujitsu also employs atemi (sp?) or striking to do the same thing.

I don't really know any bjj so I can't offer anything there.

so, no difference other than stylistic ones.

my opinion is that because judo's forte' is throwing...they have spent more time developing their methodology on throwing and for me it makes a lot of sense.

[mantis108]

I have to agree with Oso.

Judo approaches the throw with Kazushi, which is to unbalance with some kind of a handle mostly the Gi (clothing). This feature also makes it more suitable for sport oriented events because in theory it would cost minimal damage to your opponent but would give them a good idea that you have better skill than the receiving end. The throw is the main focus here.

Mantis incorporates striking and kicking while approaching the throw. The throw is in a sense the backup here. But this does not limit mantis only to striking oriented only. BTW Mantis seldom relies on clinching but rather trapping. By the same token, there is no real restriction for Judo to punch and kick before doing the throw. Mostly it is a preference and choice of the "style".

MMA, wrestling, Sambo, and to a certian degree BJJ uses clinching extensively for the takedown. Pure classical mantis in my most humle opinion is very weak in the clinching aspect. This is not to say that there is no way for Mantis to counter the clinch. In fact, classical mantis has moves to deal with the clinch within Zhan (adhere) Nian (stick) Bang (help) Tie (paste). Only though these skills are getting less and less training focus. We miss out on clinching quite often.

The clinch is quite empowering regardless if there is clothing or not. That's why it is ideal for all sorts of sport events or otherwise. It is a great skill to have.

I think -N- has a good point but I think we need to be sensitive to other non mantis MAists who don't necessary grasp our terminology. So it would be great if we can spent a little more time in typing out the actual moves with a bit more detail. I think it will save a lot of grieves and it may also benefit novice level mantis students as well.

Mantis108

[-N-]

Originally posted by mantis108
I think we need to be sensitive to other non mantis MAists who don't necessary grasp our terminology. Yep. Sorry for rushing... had a moment in between reinstalling software and running off to a meeting.

N.

[Oso]

just so people don't start to think I hate mantis...one of the things I do that bugged (hehe) the jujitsu guys I trained with is that on the collar and elbow grab I didn't grab w/ my fingers that much at all and employed the elbow of my collar hand against their chest. This allowed me to 'listen' to their centerline a bit better, imo. I could also immediately post off of them and 'ride' their movement. this concept I attribute to my mantis.

but then we had that catch wrestler come in and completely make me feel like I was back in 8th grade and stepping on the mat for the first time.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by phantom
Could somebody tell me what is the general differnce between the throws of judo and those of mantis? I suspect that judo's would be more geared toward an opponent who is wearing an article of clothing on his upper body? Thanks in advance.

I haven't read any replies yet, so this may have been said, but not all judo throws require clothing,and many of those that do can be modified - you use under and overhooks as opposed to grabbing clothes. For example, with tai otoshi, instead of pulling sleeve and lapel, you grab an arm and put your other forearm in the fold of his arm (reverse side of elbow) to complete the throw. For a fireman's carry, you overhook his shoulder or grab the back of the tricep, etc.

if mantis uses the same types of throws seen in shuai chiao (I know throwing in general is referred to as shuai chiao, but I dunno if you guys use the same throws found in the art of shuai chiao...), then the main difference is hip loading. judo relies on hip loading for some of it's throws whereas SC does not.

Also, judo relies on kazushi - offbalancing - to get the throw. Shuai chiao does not. They tend to force the offbalance either by crashing into someone, or setting it up with strikes.

[Oso]

:D ;)

[-N-]

In light of SevenStar's post, one way to look at Mantis preference is strike, stick, joint lock, then take out their base.

N.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by sayloc

Judo is a very in depth system based only on throwing and grappling. There are over 240 throws and countless holds, joint locks and chokes. The throws are classified into hip, leg, arm and sacrifice (there may be a couple more catragories that I have forgotten).


atemi waza is striking. strikes are taught in judo, but generally not untill you reach black belt and are not the main focus of the style.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by SaMantis

Comparing that experience with my mantis studies, I see some similarities. However, as Hua Lin Laoshi points out, mantis throws (like many of its offensive techniques) are designed to inflict maximum damage.

In both judo & mantis, two important tactics are to (a) unbalance/uproot your opponent, then (b) exploit it. Because judo is a sport, exploiting the opponent means putting him onto the ground so that the judge sees your move was effective. Done right, you get the full point and the fight is over. In a combat system, exploiting the opponent's unbalanced position means inflicting damage so he doesn't get up -- the fight is over, and unfortunately sometimes so is the opponent.

Now think about that for a second.... what constitutes an ippon (full point)?

them being thrown squarely on their back. When the avg person is thrown down, their head will impact the ground, as they don't know how to fall. judo throws - the actual throw - does no less damage than styles from any other style. Some of them - o soto makikomi, for example, are known for injuring people. If I do a shoulder throw and stop my rotation half way through the throw, you will land on your head instead of your back. When throwing tai otoshi, if you block high on the knee, you can tear ligaments in their knee with the throw. the list goes on.



And although its techniques are designed to inflict
minimum damage, they can be compared with the techniques of combat-oriented systems. The methods may be similar, but the goals are different.

I don't think the goal is really that different. the 'ju' in judo translates to 'gentle', but the meaning is referring to the amount of effort put into the throw. Judo's main principle is maximum efficiency with minimum effort. by yielding to you (being gentle) and directiong your energy where I want it, I am able to throw you.

[-N-]

Originally posted by SevenStar
When throwing tai otoshi, if you block high on the knee, you can tear ligaments in their knee with the throw.Sounds good :)

A mantis way of doing something similar to Tai Otoshi (www.stanway.judo.btinternet.co.uk/taiotoshi.gif) could go like this:

* A attacks B with flying knee attack, right grab, left punch all at same time.
* B uses left to defend the left punch.
* A uses left to stick and grab B's left.
* A extends B's left, rotating B's elbow upward and wrapping B's right elbow around the extended arm to apply pressure from above the elbow joint toward the ground. A can use his right elbow to hit across B's face during this.
* A's right leg comes down from the knee attack and kicks down and across B's right knee from left to right, using the back of the leg.

From what I can tell, it looks like Tai Otoshi has 180 degree turn with upper body force in one direction and a leg block/kick to keep the opponent's lower body from compensating. You can spiral him into the ground with the turn. Upper body force can be applied with sleeve and lapel grip.

The Mantis sequence(similar to one from Siu Ga Sik) uses less turning with a tighter spiral.

The upper body force is applied through a cross hand tie-up which tears the elbow joint. The trapped hands make breakfall awkward.

The leg motion is 90 degrees instead of 180 degress to deliberately attack the knee in its weakest direction.

The elbow break motion is applied straight down with body sinking after just enough turn to get the opponent's body barely overcenter.

This compresses the opponent downward and makes it difficult for the opponent to unweight his right leg. The leg kick motion then tears the opponent's knee ligaments while taking out his base.


N.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by -N-
The Mantis sequence(similar to one from Siu Ga Sik) uses less turning with a tighter spiral.


A training buddy of mine does his that way.

[-N-]

Cool, thanks for the info SevenStar.

N.

[SaMantis]

Seven Star and -N-, good information from both sides. Thank you.


If I do a shoulder throw and stop my rotation half way through the throw, you will land on your head instead of your back. When throwing tai otoshi, if you block high on the knee, you can tear ligaments in their knee with the throw. the list goes on.

As a beginner in judo, of course the focus was more on getting us to throw & be thrown without killing each other. However what I see in the examples above is that judoka can "dial up" the effect of the throw if they want.

Can mantis throws be "dialed down" to lessen injury? Has anyone done this (outside of half-speed training drills)? Tx.

[Three Harmonies]

Any technique should be versatile enough to train at any level or speed. The damage comes from the intent (Yi). If I intend to block high on my opponents leg, thus damaging the knee more... then it is damaged.
Accidents do happen (we train tons of eye rakes and gouges, and I accidentally slipped my middle finger into my brothers eye, complete nail deep!!!) so one must be careful, but everything in ones arsenal should be easily trainable, if not then throw it out because it is garbage if you cannot train it.

:D Cheers
Jake

[Reggie1]

Originally posted by SaMantis
Can mantis throws be "dialed down" to lessen injury? Has anyone done this (outside of half-speed training drills)? Tx.

I can't speak from any expertise, but in sparring I've seen all of our more experienced mantis players throw each other.

And amazingly enough, they are all still alive!
:D

[-N-]

Originally posted by SaMantis
Can mantis throws be "dialed down" to lessen injury? Has anyone done this (outside of half-speed training drills)? Our branch of Mantis focuses on explosiveness, small motions, sensitivity, and short force. In the example I gave, we train the motions at 3/4 speed and work up to full speed.

For the lock and throw portion, we stop just short of taking the person to the asphalt. We use our sensitivity to detect when the other person's body and joints are fully locked and the slightest additional pressure would take him straight down. At that point we ease off the pressure to avoid tearing ligaments. If the person does begin to fall, we'll catch him to keep him from landing on the side of his head. (The parietal and temporal bones are thin and the skull is prone to fracture at that location.)

Sometimes the students get "cocky" and try to counter or sucker punch the teacher. I don't mind really, because it shows that they are thinking, and it's usually good for laughs all around. Last year though, one person tried to pull a surprise counter when I stopped short of dumping him on the ground with this very sequence.

I could feel it coming, so I locked him back up and took out his base just enough for him to see that his counter would not work. Unfortunately, this caught him by surprise because we had been going full speed. The result was that he stumbled, and even though I caught him before he hit the ground, he tore his knee slightly, and has been wearing a brace since ;(

N.

[Pilot]

Over the years I have taken several styles including Judo. I think Judo is a very good Martial. There is a Huge difference between the styles of Mantis and Judo. There are a lot of differences between throws. On the surface they may seem simular because the body has only so many movements that it can do. Like a straight punch, All styles make a fist and punch (don't get techinical with arches, lines, circles,etc this is just an example:D ). Judo mainly takes the energy of another and deflects and/or uses that energy against you. Judo also has some painful pins once on the ground. Mantis like Judo involves basics like balance, having a firm foundation, and leverage. But unlike Judo, Mantis throws are more aggressive and not as passive. They do not wait for an energy to redirect. A lot of Mantis throws involve driving into your attacker. And, as it was very well pointed out in a previous post, you cause the attacker to land in a way to cause maxium damage. A mantis throw most always involves damaging something right before the throw is made. It involves a "finishing blow" also if time permits. Mantis usually does not grapple with one person on the ground. If the attacker is on the ground, no since you getting down there with them ;) I can do damage standing up. Plus the thugs always have a friend with them. You don't want to be caught rolling around on the ground (No offense).:p

[Knifefighter]

Originally posted by shirkers1
Since you are the expert, why don't you tell us exactly how tactically and technically JUDO throws are different from MANTIS throws? I'm not commenting on Mantis throws, per se. I am talking about any techniques that people claim cause extreme damage to the opponent. Any technique that theoretically does this cannot be practiced full force against a resisting opponent. Since these throws cannot be practiced in a realistic manner, they usually cannot be used effectively against a resisting opponent.

[-N-]

When Mantis encounters resistance, it switches to another technique to take advantage of the other person's rigidity.

Not to say that others don't do the same. I've seen good BJJ people do so with their methods too.

N.

[Frogman]

Seems to me the question has been answered but I would like to put in my two cents worth. Eco, Eco. From what I learned in my short time doing judo. They wait for the opponent to go off balance and then they capitalize on it. Mantis forces the opponent off balance and knocks them down. The few throws that I have learned in mantis are more like slams, just grab the punk and slam his a$$ into the ground. I find more tripping and leverage manipulation knocking down the opponent with a strike trip combo. I think one other difference that has been mentioned sort of is that mantis intention is not to throw but it is a good back up plan and being an opportunist the mantis will do what ever it takes.

fm

[Reggie1]

Originally posted by Knifefighter
I'm not commenting on Mantis throws, per se. I am talking about any techniques that people claim cause extreme damage to the opponent. Any technique that theoretically does this cannot be practiced full force against a resisting opponent. Since these throws cannot be practiced in a realistic manner, they usually cannot be used effectively against a resisting opponent.

Knifefighter makes a good point, but we don't have any techniques like that (at least I haven't learned any yet). All of our throws and chin na we practice, against resisting opponents--you just stop short of breaking or dumping them on the ground at a bad angle.

It's just like submissions in BJJ. I'm sure nearly all quality BJJ blue belts could turn one of their submissions into something much worse without having to practice it all the time. The difference between somebody tapping out to a heel hook and blowing their knee out with a heel hook is just a matter of force. Same thing with our chin na. The difference between an armbar for control or submission and an armbar for damage is the amount of force you put into it.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Pilot
Mantis throws are more aggressive and not as passive. They do not wait for an energy to redirect. A lot of Mantis throws involve driving into your attacker.


judo does this as well. traditionally taught, you wait for an opening. In aggressive, competition judo, you drive into your opponent, use your body to pull him in a circle, etc. judo is really nowhere near as passive as people seem to think. Heck, in competition, you are penalized if you don't attack at least once every 10 seconds.


Mantis usually does not grapple with one person on the ground. If the attacker is on the ground, no since you getting down there with them ;) I can do damage standing up. Plus the thugs always have a friend with them. You don't want to be caught rolling around on the ground (No offense).:p

but you can't always help it. Trust me, anyone can be taken down. Anyone can slip in a puddle, etc. It's not about rolling on the ground, it's about knowing what to do if you do have to go there.

[sayloc]

Great post seven star.

[Three Harmonies]

Everyone should listen to Seven Star, because regardless of how bad ass you think you are....you WILL end up on the ground. Trust me. Or don't........

Jake :D

[Oso]

waddayamean????? sevenstar is just a judohobo guy who's never trained any REAL traditional gung fu.














































ok, ya'll realize that's just so totally a joke.

[Knifefighter]

Originally posted by Reggie1
It's just like submissions in BJJ. I'm sure nearly all quality BJJ blue belts could turn one of their submissions into something much worse without having to practice it all the time. The difference between somebody tapping out to a heel hook and blowing their knee out with a heel hook is just a matter of force. Nope... the difference is how soon you tap. Unless you are rolling with someone you outclass by quite a bit, submissions are all applied hard. You let go as soon as the opponent taps. If he doesn't tap soon enough, often times he will have his joint injured.

[Reggie1]

Originally posted by Knifefighter
Nope... the difference is how soon you tap. Unless you are rolling with someone you outclass by quite a bit, submissions are all applied hard. You let go as soon as the opponent taps. If he doesn't tap soon enough, often times he will have his joint injured.

Cool--you'd know better than I would. So you really crank all of your submissions at full force? All the time?

[SevenStar]

most grapplers could probably tell you at least one story of how they've been injured from not tapping soon enough. A year or two ago (I'll find out which competition it was) a guy got his bicep muscle torn from not tapping to a bicep slicer. A guy in my class to this day can't straighten his arm because his arm popped and he never went to the doctor or gave it proper time to heal. (idiot) but yeah, things happen.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Three Harmonies
Everyone should listen to Seven Star, because regardless of how bad ass you think you are....you WILL end up on the ground. Trust me. Or don't........

Jake :D

Basically.:p :D

[MightyB]

that doing judo has made my mantis throws better. I've found several instances where the movements were the same--- movements in the mantis forms that are the same as throws that I'm learning in judo. Like N's description of Tiao Toshi. There's a ton more like that.

I've read Robert Smith's stuff and agree that Judo and Shuai Chaio are basically the same, except Judo has foot sweeps in randori.

[Three Harmonies]

I would not go too far saying that Judo and Shuai Chiao are the same. While I certainly agree that throws are either done right or wrong regardless of style....their are many stylistic differences. But I will not argue that they are similar!

Cheers
Jake :D

[Knifefighter]

Originally posted by Reggie1
Cool--you'd know better than I would. So you really crank all of your submissions at full force? All the time? Unless your sparring partner is at a much lower level than you are, you will usually be working as hard as you can to get the submission. The key to not getting hurt is the person who is caught knowing when to tap and the person applying the submission letting go as soon as the tap occurs.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Three Harmonies
I would not go too far saying that Judo and Shuai Chiao are the same. While I certainly agree that throws are either done right or wrong regardless of style....their are many stylistic differences. But I will not argue that they are similar!

Cheers
Jake :D

quite similar. The way I got into judo was through shuai chiao. I was training with a group of guys that live several hours away from me, and one of them reccomended that I train judo since there is plenty of good judo in my area. when we do get to train together, they show me the differences between the judo and sc ways of doing various throws, as he's a 1st dan in judo as well.

[Three Harmonies]

Who did you train SC with?
Jake

[SevenStar]

some guys in chicago who are affiliated with dr. brian wu and david lin.

[wiz cool c]

For Mantis throws to be as effective as Judo they would have to pratice them about an hour each class with at least a 1\2 hour of free sparring with throws 5 days a week. This is what judo people do. How often do you guys practice your throws in mantis?

[BeiTangLang]

Originally posted by wiz cool c
For Mantis throws to be as effective as Judo they would have to pratice them about an hour each class with at least a 1\2 hour of free sparring with throws 5 days a week. This is what judo people do. How often do you guys practice your throws in mantis?

In the context of your statement, you are absolutely correct; however, the the mantis throws themselves are quite usefull and effective.

[Hua Lin Laoshi]

No, actually mantis throws are as good as judo throws.

For a mantis practitioner to be as good with them as the judo practitioner he would have to train similarly to the judo player.

I don't buy the 'you have to practice it all day every day to make it work' type of argument.

Practicing for an hour a day 5 days a week make the player good, not the style.

[BeiTangLang]

Thats what I said! :)

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Hua Lin Laoshi

For a mantis practitioner to be as good with them as the judo practitioner he would have to train similarly to the judo player.

I think that's the point he was trying to make.

I don't buy the 'you have to practice it all day every day to make it work' type of argument.

Practicing for an hour a day 5 days a week make the player good, not the style.


not necessarily to make it work, but to make it work against a good exponent of the style in question. That's pretty common sense. If in a two hour class, you spend 15 mins warming up, 30 mins on technique drills, 30 mins on throwing and 15 mins on conditoning, will you be more proficient at throwing than the guy who in a two hour class spends 1.5 hours of it throwing?

Heck, try it. When I was in CMA, we grappled somewhat, but not regularly. A friend from class and I got together, bought a copy of the fighter's notebook and would train grappling for 2 hours every saturday. When we grappled in class, we killed everyone, merely because we were putting in more time.



BTW, nice sig, BTL - that's one of my favorite moments on king of the hill!

[Hua Lin Laoshi]

BTL
I'm just saying there's no better or worse when talking styles (remove players from equation). You can take a lousy style and train it all day long and the style will not get any better. So I would disagree with wiz cool c that to make the mantis throws as good as judo throws you need to train them more.

SevenStar
But do you see where that argument leads? It implies that more is always better and that just isn't true.

Is the guy who trains 2 hrs a day better than the guy who trains 1 hr a day? How about the guy that trains 3 hrs a day?

To be better than a guy who trains 6 hrs a day do I have to train 8 hrs a day?

I just get tired of the claims that you have to spend almost all your free time training in order to be any good. How many hours a day do most of the older Masters train? Or are they just all talk?

[BeiTangLang]

Naw man, The context in which he wrote the reply was just that judo guys would be better at what they do because of how much they train at it, not that their systems throws are any better.....

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Hua Lin Laoshi
SevenStar
But do you see where that argument leads? It implies that more is always better and that just isn't true.

Is the guy who trains 2 hrs a day better than the guy who trains 1 hr a day? How about the guy that trains 3 hrs a day?

To be better than a guy who trains 6 hrs a day do I have to train 8 hrs a day?

I just get tired of the claims that you have to spend almost all your free time training in order to be any good. How many hours a day do most of the older Masters train? Or are they just all talk?

it's an issue of specificity. your example above is too vague. if you have a guy that trains two hours, and a guy that trains one, it's possible that the guy who trains one may be better at overall fighting. No argument there. but when you get more specific - the guy with more fucsed training is going to be better in his area of focus than the guy who is less specific. MMA guys are great, but the avg. MMA guy would bet ktfo by a boxer in a boxing match. Why? because they don't train striking to the extent that the boxer does.

As far as older masters, the same applies, actually. Take dr yang jwing ming. He's awesome with pressure points and his chin na is great - those are his areas of specificity. Now, if he were to enter a shuai chiao match with chang tung sheng, he would get destroyed. both are masters, BUT both are masters AT WHAT THEY DO. it's like having a major in college. two people may have gone to college and have the same general knowledge, but they will know more than the other in the area of their major.

Also, in regards to masters, the key here is experience. at one point in time, they have literally been there and done that. They have trained hard, they have tested themselves, etc. they use that to their advantage. Even though they are now at a deficit in the speed and strength department, they should, ideally, be able to rely on their experience to carry them. To a certain extent, this is plausible.

[Hua Lin Laoshi]

BTL
Guess I just read it differently. That's how it sounded to me (actually looked it over a few times before posting).

SevenStar
Specificity included. My example assumes both are training throws (per the topic). Sorry, still disagree. That would mean for me to beat you at grappling all I have to do is find out how much time you spend on grappling training and then just train it 1 hour a day more. Doesn't work that way. If it did then all you have to do is wait for a big boxing event, find out which fighter trains more each day, bet on that fighter and collect when it's over.

[mantis108]

As far as older masters, the same applies, actually. Take dr yang jwing ming. He's awesome with pressure points and his chin na is great - those are his areas of specificity. Now, if he were to enter a shuai chiao match with chang tung sheng, he would get destroyed. both are masters, BUT both are masters AT WHAT THEY DO. it's like having a major in college. two people may have gone to college and have the same general knowledge, but they will know more than the other in the area of their major.

This is very interesting. I am not questioning you on this statement [in fact I am quite in agreement with you]. So if I am hearing you right, under the shuai chiao rules Yang would lose and under the Chin Na rules (if there is such a thing) the victor might be Yang? What if there is not rules? where or who would you put your money on (just curious)? Here's where I find problematic. What exactly is Chin Na and how do we measure the effectiveness of YJM's Chin Na? We could somewhat see the performance of Chang tung Sheng in competitve record but we have no way of seeing YJM's Chin Na in action except from books an videos.

Again I am not questioning you, I am just wondering out loud. ;) Just starting to find the dynamics of this thread turned a notch more interesting.

Warm regards

Mantis108

PS I am partial to Shuai Chiao in this case.

[SevenStar]

We'll have to agree to disagree on this one. When boxer's train for a fight, they train to exploit the weaknesses of the other fighter. If I know you've got a hard cross but suck on the inside, I'm going to tailor my game to getting inside of you. Consequently, what we've been saying above doesn't necessarily apply there. Also, boxers are training the same skill sets. Within those skill sets, you have people that are better at certain things, due to training and attributes. For example, lewis has a decent jab, but he's weak on the inside. Tyson on the other hand, is a monster on the inside. One is better than the other at their preferred range.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by mantis108
This is very interesting. I am not questioning you on this statement [in fact I am quite in agreement with you]. So if I am hearing you right, under the shuai chiao rules Yang would lose and under the Chin Na rules (if there is such a thing) the victor might be Yang? What if there is not rules? where or who would you put your money on (just curious)? Here's where I find problematic. What exactly is Chin Na and how do we measure the effectiveness of YJM's Chin Na? We could somewhat see the performance of Chang tung Sheng in competitve record but we have no way of seeing YJM's Chin Na in action except from books an videos.

Looking at the broader picture of a no rules fight, I really don't think that it would apply. It would come more down to strategy and tactics - can CTS make YJM fight his fight, or vice versa. They are both skilled in their areas of expertise, but they have to get to that range first. One would think that the more well rounded person would fare the best, but the less rounded one may be excellent at exploiting holes and getting to his intended range...

I've seen YJM in action in person before, but that really can't adequately quantify his skill level.


Again I am not questioning you, I am just wondering out loud. ;) Just starting to find the dynamics of this thread turned a notch more interesting.

that is what discussion is all about. if we keep wondering, we'll eventually get somewhere :)

[mantis108]

I've seen YJM in action in person before, but that really can't adequately quantify his skill level.

Now, I can't imagine you are such a diplomat. lol...

So, pray tell. Do quantify. What is your opinion albeit "inadequate" as you termed in. I am not trying to stir up trouble. I am just interested in honest "estimates" (I know it's a bit oxymoron). It is interesting because you have some knowledge of Shuai Chiao and have seen YJM in action so... I am very much curious about how he conducts his seminars or class. Are they resistive in nature as SC would be? Most importantly to what the end game in his Chin Na?

Please don't take the 5th on these ones. [joke] :D

Warm regards

Mantis108

[SevenStar]

He's great. I didn't see him spar, so I can't attest to his fighting ability, but he's quick, and his strieks are VERY precise. He demoed something on one of my training buddies....touched his shoulder - and his whole arm went numb from the shoulder down. I'm not sure exactly what he did, other than touch his arm. This was a seminar, not a class, so it wasn't resistive - I dunno if his classes are or not. He ran us through part of his chin na system, showing us how to apply the locks, then we'd apply them on our partner.

[-N-]

Originally posted by SevenStar
He demoed something on one of my training buddies....touched his shoulder - and his whole arm went numb from the shoulder down. I'm not sure exactly what he did, other than touch his arm. Sounds like brachial plexus. Cool.

N.

[mantis108]

Thanks for sharing the experience. I hear you crystal clear. Thank you for that. :)

Warm regards

Mantis108

[-N-]

Originally posted by SevenStar
He ran us through part of his chin na system, showing us how to apply the locks, then we'd apply them on our partner. The chin na in his books seem to show a lot of space between the two people. Is this how it was taught at the seminar?

thanks,
N.

[Pilot]

Since I’ve had some judo and also currently take mantis, let me make another observation in this love fest of judo vs. mantis. The mantis incorporates very heavy physical training and iron body. When I was taking judo, there was a bigger advantage to those who were fat and heavy. In mantis it helps to be large, but not as much as judo because of the joint locks and tactics to cause the other person to be off balance that are not found in judo. Almost everything is different about the 2 styles including something as simple as grabbing. In judo heavy emphasis is placed on the heavy uniform top to aid in throws. In mantis, you do not grab cloths, but the root of muscles and tendons. A lot of mantis styles wear short sleeve or no sleeve tops to aid in practice. Before you get all bent out of shape, JUDO IS A GREAT MARTIAL ART!!!!! I’m just saying it’s just not the same as mantis. :rolleyes:

[SaMantis]

Originally posted by Pilot
When I was taking judo, there was a bigger advantage to those who were fat and heavy.

Yeah, in judo I was told that traditionally, judokas' training diets included massive quantities of beer to develop that fine, burly physique.

I was also told that the n00bs always bought the beer for everyone and .... heeeyyyyy, wait a minute.

[Knifefighter]

Originally posted by BeiTangLang
Naw man, The context in which he wrote the reply was just that judo guys would be better at what they do because of how much they train at it, not that their systems throws are any better..... A system that specializes in and trains something five or six times as much as another system will develop better techniques at it's specialty than the second system.

[BeiTangLang]

ok, your right infinintly better..... On with the discussion.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by -N-
The chin na in his books seem to show a lot of space between the two people. Is this how it was taught at the seminar?

thanks,
N.

I've never seen any of his books, so I can't be sure. Do you know of any similar pics online?

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Pilot
The mantis incorporates very heavy physical training and iron body.

so does judo, when you compete at higher levels. Two of my coaches compete and national and world levels, and they are all about conditioning. it's the name of the game. Less competitive schools likely do not condition as much - but applies to pretty much any style.


When I was taking judo, there was a bigger advantage to those who were fat and heavy.


Depends on how well the little guy understands what he's doing. The two above mentioned coaches are both smaller than me, yet they both manhande me. For guys with lesser experience though, yeah, my size alone gives them he!!.


In mantis it helps to be large, but not as much as judo because of the joint locks and tactics to cause the other person to be off balance that are not found in judo.

Judo is all bout off balancing. In some cases, using joint manipulation to do so, but mainly just good knowledge of akzushi. how long did you train?


Almost everything is different about the 2 styles including something as simple as grabbing. In judo heavy emphasis is placed on the heavy uniform top to aid in throws. In mantis, you do not grab cloths, but the root of muscles and tendons.


yet again, depends on how you train and with whom. judo does indeed rely on gi grabs, for the fact that the gi is what you grab in competition. However, if you look at guys like olympic medalist mike swain, they also train judo throws with no gi. The majority of guys at my club also train bjj and adapt judo throws to no gi, consequently, we do alot of over and underhooking, as opposed to only gi grabbing.


Before you get all bent out of shape, JUDO IS A GREAT MARTIAL ART!!!!! I’m just saying it’s just not the same as mantis. :rolleyes:

Nothing to get bent out of shape about - it's only a discussion.

[-N-]

Originally posted by SevenStar
I've never seen any of his books, so I can't be sure. Do you know of any similar pics online? Here's a url that kinda shows what I mean. The pics are just some general stuff, not the actual applications though.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/reader/0940871378/ref=sib_rdr_prev2_ex6/103-1539468-8448648?%5Fencoding=UTF8&p=S00A&j=1&ns=1#reader-page

Contrast to this cover pic:

http://images.amazon.com/images/P/0865681759.01._SCLZZZZZZZ_.jpg

N.

[Three Harmonies]

A lot of people have praised Yang Laoshi here and on other forums, and I am not too sure why. I have been to several of his seminars on Chin Na and other topics, and frankly I am not very impressed. No offense to anyone.
He has a strong grip, I will give him that. He knows all sorts of variations when it comes to the locks. The problem is his entry and execution. I would venture to say 95% of his Chin Na is useless other than in a seminar. Keep in mind Chin Na is the hardest application to get on someone on the street. That being said, he goes into these digressions of variations where you are switching hands, fumbling around with your opponents arm/hand whatever. ETC. ETC.
And to answer the question of should there be that much space in between you and your opponent while applying Chin Na. The answer is yes..... if you want to get your head kicked in! Grappling of any sorts is better the closer you get.

Cheers
Jake :D

[-N-]

Originally posted by Three Harmonies [...] should there be that much space in between you and your opponent while applying Chin Na. The answer is yes..... if you want to get your head kicked in! Grappling of any sorts is better the closer you get. I know what you mean. I'm totally uncomfortable with giving the other person that much space. I'd want to control his center and base at the same time.

In all fairness, I figured that the book pictures might have been done that way for the sake of clarity.

N.

[SevenStar]

definitely more like the first pic.

[EarthDragon]

here is one of my favorite pics, for all the mantis players

[SevenStar]

looks like one of several variations of various judo throws. Describe that throw, set up and all.

[EarthDragon]

sevenstar,
the throw very well might be in judo as it is a leg lift, which falls under an "rotational" typical type of displacment. However the throw comes from shuai chiao and is called (bung tiao) the bung is the trap and the (tiao) is the leg lift ....for i.e
your oppnent throws a right punch to the face, you redirect and gou or mantis grab w/ right hand,simutaneuosly punch left to opponents face, when opponents blocks you shift your weight , foot angle and balance which locks thier right elbow against your chest (bung).
You then step to crossing leg and while keep constant pressure on the elbow twist and lift your right leg (tiao). This causes your opponents head and feet to rotate 180 degrees falling on thier back. It is an extremley wokable throw and had to counter, if they try to counter you just hyperextend the elbow and go into a lock then throw, so either way its very hard to counter even from and experienced martial artist.
I like throws that lock first, this seems more real to me then alot of judo or aikido throws, although many of them lock first alot of them don't.

here is another angle for you too see