Grappling

[Kevin Bell]

Hello All,

I was just wondering what everyones thoughts were on how much ground experience is required for the Pavement arena. Obviously in WC some of us practice forms of anti grappling taught in accordance with WC principles/concepts etc and to me this seems a good place to start. Common sense tells me this wont make anyone a great submission/grapple fighter and some knowledge of BJJ for example can only be a good thing. I dont doubt a good seasoned grappler would shut down my dirty tricks such as biting or groin grabbing etc

I see alot of people have taken up BJJ and from what i've seen in UFC and cage fights etc its an awesome system but my point is the guy i fight in the street probably wont be a BJJ guy and if fighting more than one person we want to stay on our feet or if grappled down get back onto our feet ASAP. Luckily for me i've only visited the deck a few times mostly in Boxing (cant fight from floor obviously) or when in street brawls but luckily in the ensuing confusion managed to scramble to my feet.

Myself personally ive got nothing but respect for the grappling arts but how much do you think we need to learn for the pavement arena?

Kev

[t_niehoff]

Kevin Bell Wrote:

I was just wondering what everyones thoughts were on how much ground experience is required for the Pavement arena. Obviously in WC some of us practice forms of anti grappling taught in accordance with WC principles/concepts etc and to me this seems a good place to start.

**In my view, it is a terrible place to start -- because you're ingraining poor groundfighting habits from the start.

Common sense tells me this wont make anyone a great submission/grapple fighter

**True, and it won't help you learn or develop the skills that you need to survive and escape either.

and some knowledge of BJJ for example can only be a good thing.

**If your goal is to be a well-rounded fighter.

I dont doubt a good seasoned grappler would shut down my dirty tricks such as biting or groin grabbing etc

**You don't need to be that "seasoned" to shut that nonsense down. Only folks that have never done any groundfighting will believe those things are anything other than a distraction at best.

I see alot of people have taken up BJJ and from what i've seen in UFC and cage fights etc its an awesome system but my point is the guy i fight in the street probably wont be a BJJ guy and if fighting more than one person we want to stay on our feet or if grappled down get back onto our feet ASAP.

**It's like a BJJist saying "I don't want to trade punches, so why waste my time learning some boxing". Well, because they can't always get you to the ground right away and some boxing skills might help them survive to do that or the situation may be such that groundfighting isn't the best option. Our tactics are dictated by the situation. Same with WCK. Maybe we're taken down by accident or design -- would you want to have the skills to survive? Perhaps it is more expeditious to just take the guy down and restrain him than punch him to kingdom come. What BJJ does is give you options, adds flexibility to your fighting. Is that a bad thing?

Luckily for me i've only visited the deck a few times mostly in Boxing (cant fight from floor obviously) or when in street brawls but luckily in the ensuing confusion managed to scramble to my feet.

**More and more people are learning groundfighting, so it's not going to be that rare to have someone try to take you down. For example, the US armed forces teach BJJ as the core of their hand-to-hand.

Myself personally ive got nothing but respect for the grappling arts but how much do you think we need to learn for the pavement arena?

**You need the following IMO: 1) how to properly defend against an attacker when you are down and he is still standing; 2) how to get up properly when the opponent is still standing; 3) how to escape from a disadvantageous position (when caught in the mount, side control, a head and arm, headlock, or the opponent has your back); 4) how to defend from being struck if the opponent is in your guard and you cannot make space to sweep or kick; and, 5) how to defend against basic strikes and submissions when on the bottom.

[Kevin Bell]

Nice one Terence to the point as i expected. My conundrem being that round my way as far as im aware there is no BJJ clubs so looks like im going to have to travel when time loosens up a bit. The most experience i had was a couple of years of Judo as a youngster many moons ago so hence why i ask. How have you found its improved your fighting since doing groundwork?

[Nick Forrer]

Following on from Terences post

Fundamentals you should learn are how to:

Bridge,
Shrimp/escape the hips (knee/elbow escape),
Hip heist/belly out,
Peak out and kick through,
Create a frame/seal yourself off,
‘Swim’ your arms/legs through for overhooks and underhooks (establish a position of control),
Break grips on clothing
Stand up in base/form a tripod.

[Kevin Bell]

Er, Nick Get down Soton ASAP.

Actually you know anywhere down my way that does BJJ or something along those lines?

[Ultimatewingchun]

Kevin:

Here's my take on grappling in the pavement arena...

Sometimes you have no choice but to go to the ground...sometimes the opening your opponent gives you should make you want to grab him and take him to the ground.

Regardless of what kind of turf you're on.

There's nothing you can do about it.

I will say this much, though...avoiding going to the ground when up against multiple opponents should become a top priority - as well as spending a lot of training time learning how to escape from the bottom and getting back to one's feet.

[Nick Forrer]

Kev

Follow the BJJ club links on this page. I know Miad - hes a purple belt at my class - but i dont know if classes are still running,

Hampshire clubs (http://sfuk.tripod.com/sfukmainframe.html)

[Kevin Bell]

Nick

Just quickly (got to dash to training).

Thanks for the link had a quick scan saw a chap in bournemouth by the name of Dasousa. Something for me to defo look into in the near future tied up at mo with class and possibly going for a coaching badge in Boxing for the next couple of months but if all that goes well then should hopefully free up some time and will certainly look into it.

Like i said before your welcome to come down and do a grapplin sesh, been some expressed interest in it.

got to fly buddy cheers again

Laterzz

Kev

[anerlich]

Nick is correct.

I'd just add that you need a basic understanding of good and bad positions, and have a few effective ways to escape the bad ones so you can stand up again. Also learn basic beginner grappling mistakes so you do not contribute to your own downfall.

[reneritchie]

For most people, training time will far, far, far, exceed real-world encounter time. While it may seem important to worry about which 5 moves may or may not help in a real world encounter, what you enjoy doing day in, day out, in the training room is probably more important. So, while I agree positional escape and control is important (basically, everything Rickson et all shows as 'street defense'), the sheer cardio and body awareness you can develop with a fuller range of movements, standup or grappling, shouldn't be discounted just because they may cause an owie on concrete...