Simple Question

[XiaoJieFu]

I'm very new to martial arts, so plz be easy on me... I've been reading the forum for about a year, and I love it :D

I'm just starting Kung Fu rather hard-core and doing Tae Kwon Do on the side to keep flexible and in shape. TKD isn't really my kind of thing but I'm giving it a try and hey it's not BAD for me. ;)

One thing I've noticed in TKD is how often my classmates use really high kicks, and kicks where they turn their back to the enemy during sparring. I know in the rules we use (WTF rules) don't allow hitting in the back or below the belt, but in a real fight... Aren't high kicks and spinning kicks just a bad idea?

They expose your back/genitals, take a lot of time.... I know IF they connect they're rather powerful, but low kicks to the joints seem to be a much better idea... More like in Wing Chun.

What's the point of these high kicks? They seem to be a very bad idea in the practical sense.

Your thoughts?:confused:

[Water Dragon]

They're used to kick Warriors off their horses in battle.

[XiaoJieFu]

I mean in modern single unarmed combat, both people standing onthe ground... Like sparring with someone who trains Kung Fu or Karate for example.

[Water Dragon]

Oh! Ok. In that case they're used to avoid BJJ guys takedowns.

[Starchaser107]

He's right those high kicks were used to kick warriors off horses in battle.
What style of kung fu are you training? careful not to get your body mechanics messed up. TKD is a different animal to Kung Fu

as for practical uses of that kick nowadays...not much unless you use it against someone that is airbourne...or really tall...

[Brad]

If you can get a proper opening, a fast & strong kick to the head can end a fight real fast.

[Water Dragon]

Originally posted by Brad
If you can get a proper opening, a fast & strong kick to the head can end a fight real fast.

Too much work. Throw 'em down and then kick 'em in the head.

[Starchaser107]

or on the flipside it's liable to get you sweeped and tasting concrete.
if fighting against an opponent of the same style i suppose it may or may not work...
I'm not sure how it might work against someone who's waiting for you to trow that leg up there so they can snip it and snap it and make you wish you hadnt put it there.

[PangQuan]

You have to remember that TKD comes from TSD which was initially intended for actual warfare. Which includes weapons, mainly large swords. This is why there is so much kicking. Those high kicks enable you to attack men from horseback when your sword is somewhere else. But yes, in a real fight this can be dangerous. Then more you study CMA the more you will see that there are alot of ways of ending a fight if someone tries to kick you in the head. Not that you cant do it, its just a matter of knowing when to kick high.

[Brad]

That's why I say look for an opening :p You have to get them when they're not expecting it. How many times are you going come up against someone who's going to be expecting tae kwon do kicks? If someone's trained to fight against high kickers and is expecting you to try that, then your odds of pulling it off aren't going to be that great.

[Brad]

Too much work. Throw 'em down and then kick 'em in the head.
Or you could launch a preemptive strike... just sneak up on potential threats when they're not looking and kick them in the head ;)

[PangQuan]

Personally I would throw a low kick or two a body shot or so with my fists then crush the larynx with my knuckles. But hey, Im no TKD expert, I just know a little Gongfu.

[FuXnDajenariht]

i read a long time that the preference for kicks was a cultural thing in Korea. feet were considered unclean, so they were perfect for the unclean act of fighting. hands were for more noble ventures like art or calligraphy or literature etc etc... thats what i remember atleast.

[PangQuan]

That could be true, Im told though that Tae Kwon Do literally translates into "The Way of the Hand and Foot" Im not sure about all that TKD stuff though, being a misunderstood gong fu guy. You know none of us can fight, we just look good.

[XiaoJieFu]

What style of kung fu are you training? careful not to get your body mechanics messed up. TKD is a different animal to Kung Fu

My style is called Chung Wah... www.chungwahkungfu.com
It's focused heavily on the basics of kung fu, and I love it so far.

I'm well aware of the differences between kung fu and TKD. How would you suggest I go about not messing up my muscle memory?

As for the answers to my first question... It's basically what I had suspected, that they're no too practical in cross-style sparring or a real fight.

[PangQuan]

There is a long time TKD practitioner in my gong fu school, he has a great form, and does well with techniques. Yet when you watch him sparr, it is all TKD, this is the muscle memory that will mainly be effected by cross training, part of it anyhow will be this. It is hard to cross train like this especially between styles that are so completely different.

[Brad]

Hey XiaoJieFu,

I took a look at your schools website, and y'all got Chuo Jiao(lots of kicks!)! Maybe since you like kicks, talk to your teacher about Chuo Jiao? You wouldn't really need the TKD then, and it would better fit within the framework of your kungfu training :)

[red5angel]

since you're new I'll relate my favorite martial arts fight stories. There's two of them and actually, other then in the ring or kwoon/dojo/school they are the only two fights involving martial arts I've seen other then a couple of high school fights involving wrestling matches.

The short version of both is that in both cases, the fighters were TKD people, one since he was about 3 and the other practiced for about 4 years. In the first fight, the guy fought a man much much larger then himself and used a "tornado kick" to knock the guy down and basically take him out of the fight.
The second fight involved a girl against a guy who probably had atleast 30 lbs on her, and she used a spinning heel kick to take him down. She later also used a jab/knifehand of some sort and a shot to the face to get the point across he seemed ot be missing.

Now you can take that for what you want, but it's taught me one thing - that there are so many variables in a fight that it's hard to say what works and what doesn't without practice. Here on a martial arts forum we tend to always talk as if we were facing off with well trained martial artists, when the streets really aren't teeming with martial artists - and the majority of the martial artists out there are karate and TKD school dropouts more then actual hard practicing hard fighting hard boiled fighters.

[Water Dragon]

Originally posted by wolfen
That's flying kicks. High kicks are to kick the horses in the head.

Doh! you're right, my bad.

[Starchaser107]

quote:
"Here on a martial arts forum we tend to always talk as if we were facing off with well trained martial artists, when the streets really aren't teeming with martial artists - and the majority of the martial artists out there are karate and TKD school dropouts more then actual hard practicing hard fighting hard boiled fighters."

I suppose in a sense that's true, but there's also security guards, ex- military guys, cops, killers, skinheads, gang bangers and drunken badassess as well as a few others.

[XiaoJieFu]

High kicks are to kick the horses in the head

:eek: ****! Aren't horses like 500-1000 pound beasts covered in muscle, moving at high speeds? That's got to be a prety powerful kick. Im assuming the intent isnt to KILL the horse...

[Water Dragon]

Well, you know the Old Saying:

Kick a Horse, Punch a Donkey.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by XiaoJieFu
:eek: ****! Aren't horses like 500-1000 pound beasts covered in muscle, moving at high speeds?

Yeah, but so am I.

[Water Dragon]

Yeah, hose beast maybe.

[MonkeySlap Too]

TKD did not come from TSD. The founders of the 'Kwans' that merged to create TKD were all 1st or 2nd Degree black Belts in Shotokan Karate. Most learned in Japan where they were serving in the Japanese military, as Korea was a colony of Japan in those days.

TKD has since evolved into an interesting sport - but not a very useful fighting method.

Most of the fanciful history of TKD is just that - fancy, not truth. It has certainly evolved into it's own thing. I would not cross-train TKD with CMA, as you will learn too many habits that do will inhibit what most CMA try to acheive.

[XiaoJieFu]

as you will learn too many habits that do will inhibit what most CMA try to acheive.

Can u please give me some examples?

[MasterKiller]

Originally posted by XiaoJieFu
Can u please give me some examples? Not hitting the face.

[MonkeySlap Too]

Sure, here's a short list. But before people start screeching 'oh it ain't so', I've played with all stripes and caliber of TKD people, I know of which I speak.

Problems with TKD:
How you stand. How you move. How you keep your hands down, and expose your groin as an opening move. Rotating the elbow to the outside of the body when punching. The wierd, rigid body mechanics. One-step sparring where the opponent doesn't actually try to hit you, stops, then you move in. Pretty much everything in regards to how TKD moves...

Need I go on? Friends don't let friends do TKD...

[XiaoJieFu]

But before people start screeching 'oh it ain't so',

Trust me, I wasn't at all challenging when i asked for examples. I'm just eager for information about this. I by no means have some sort of faith in TKD. I've only been to 3 lessons, and am thus far pretty unimpressed.... Except for the general workout and fun time.

I'm aware theres a huge difference between TKD sparring and a real fight/CMA sparring. I'm aware of the weird rigid movements that don't seem practical in any way whatsoever...


Rotating the elbow to the outside of the body when punching

What do u mean by this? Doesn't any standard straight punch leave ur elbow facing the outside?

What would be a better art to train instead of TKD if i can't find a Kung Fu school here at my university?

[ShaolinTiger00]

Who do you think would win in a fight, an Olympic Wrestler or an Olympic TKD'er?



:D

[Starchaser107]

depends on what rules they're fighting by.:p :p :p

[MonkeySlap Too]

Is the Olympic wrestler a parapalegic?

[ShaolinTiger00]

Originally posted by Starchaser107
depends on what rules they're fighting by.:p :p :p

no rules. 2 guys locked in a room. who comes out?

and MST had owned this thread since the beginning.

[Water Dragon]

Originally posted by ShaolinTiger00
no rules. 2 guys locked in a room. who comes out?

and MST had owned this thread since the beginning.

Is the wrestler on a horse? That makes a big difference ya know.

[ShaolinTiger00]

Originally posted by Water Dragon
Is the wrestler on a horse? That makes a big difference ya know.

Actually he's sitting on 7 Star, who is wearing a saddle and a bridle.. you know like a typical friday night..

[Water Dragon]

ST, there are some places where you just shouldn't go. That was one of them.

*yuck*

[Brad]

What do u mean by this? Doesn't any standard straight punch leave ur elbow facing the outside?
I think he's talking about while the punch is being executed. Lots of TKD guys let their elbow come away from the body during a punch so that rather than coming straight out behind the punch, the elbow ends up sticking out to the side for a second part way through. So if you looked at a punch straight on, you'd see the arm like this < for a second(like a chicken wing). It's not so much that they teach you to specifically punch like that, they just often don't pay attention to little details like that when it comes to punching. That's the biggest difference I noticed between my wushu training and my TKD training, was the little basic details that the TKD people just didn't seem to care about.

[Mr Punch]

:D Shaolin Tiger... that was pretty bad as images go!

BTW, if you've only had 3 weeks of TKD I wouldn't mix it up... either stick with it, or as most people are suggesting, do something more (dare I say it) useful!

I should say, I've only messed around with one (apparently very good) TKD guy and he admitted he has no answer to close range stuff. That's a bit of a problem. but then although most practioners will tell you different, there are always some problems with whatever arts.

Shop around.