Question about Fook Sau

[Sleepflower]

On the point of the flick of the wrist, should the hand end in a vertical or horizontal posision.


I can beat anyone in this room in 60seconds!!

[Ish]

What do you mean by the flick of the wrist

[Sleepflower]

is the Flick (or what ever you want to call it)But what should the hand position be? Vertical or Horizontal?

I can beat anyone in this room in 60seconds!!

[Jeff Brown]

Catching-hand fuuk rests vertically, IN MY OPINION

[Dave Farmer]

In Siu Nim Tao the 'flick' could be either when the fook moves position to Jum Sau, prior to withdrawing to Wu Sau in which case the fingers are vertical.

Another option is the fook changing to Taan Sau prior to rotating into Jum sau as believe is done in some other lineages (noteably Lee Shing/Austin Goh) in which case the palm is flat.

Either way, the fook doesn't change its position, it simply moves into another shape.

Regards

Dave F

'wing chun men do it with sticky hands'

[Jeff Brown]

my understanding is that the palm is almost never flat, certainly not in fuuk sao. could you explain why Lee Shing/Austin Goh would have it so? what is the rationale for a flat handed fuuk?

[Dave Farmer]

I never implied Fook sau was flat!

In the Lee Shing/Austin Goh lineage (which I first Learned SNT from) The initial Taan Sau feeds out, rotates thru Huen sau to Jum Sau which is then withdrawn as in other lineages.
The difference is that then after the Wu Sau drops back int fook sau, The fook feeds back out along the center and on reaching the end of it's path, it's 'Flicked' up into Taan Sau again, before the Huen sau back to Jum Sau and the cycle continues.

Personally, it's not the way I practice it and I never stayed long to gain a thorough understanding of why It's done this way.

Fook Sau (hooking/detaining hand) as it's name implies is not flat, otherwise it wouldn't be fook sau.

Taan Sau (Dispersing/ Palm Up hand) is about as flat as any hand position I've seen.

Just my view.

Dave F

'wing chun men do it with sticky hands'

[Jeff Brown]

that all made sense.

Don't you think, though, that the daimond-shape of the fuuk stays the same, but only the position (as determined by the wrist) changes?

[Dave Farmer]

NP Meng Shuo.

Yeah the actual hand shape of fook stays the same all the way out, the way I practice it anyway.

Then again I'm no expert LOL!!

Regards

Dave F

'wing chun men do it with sticky hands'

[Jeff Brown]

ever thought about the fuuk on a tan sao, Dave F? what might that allow you to do? Seriously, try envisioning it.

[Dave Farmer]

How do you mean?

Fook resting ON Taan (as in Chi sau) or using the Underside of Taan as a Detaining hand maybe??

'wing chun men do it with sticky hands'

[Jeff Brown]

IN MY OPINION (maybe i should make this my autosignature? nah) the fuuk is to catch. the traditional SLT asks you to move from, for example, a bong sao to a tan, which in my mind is prelude to a throat gouging. if your purpose in tan sao is not to attack, then you gotta do something else with that hand or it is like a fish hook without a barb.

[mun hung]

So tan to huen to jum sau and not wu sau?
Do you change jum sau to wu sau then?
And what lineage is this?

[Dave Farmer]

The lineage I encountered it was Lee shing/Austin Goh, and yes, the Jum sau follows back to Wu Sau as normal.

It's not the way I practice though.

My SNT is through Yip Chun/Sam Kwok/Brian Desir lineage.

regards

Dave F

'wing chun men do it with sticky hands'

[kj]

Can you describe a little more about this wrist flick? I have seen Randy Williams do an explicit flick of the wrist on video, while doing poon sau/luk sau - is this the type of flick you mean, and in this type of context? Or do you perhaps incorporate a wrist flick during the Siu Lim Tau? Anything else you can describe or offer about this wrist flick or its usage? Guess that's why they say a picture is worth a thousand words. :)

In the way that I practice, there is no characteristic fuk sau flick. However, I would still like to envision and follow your scenario better. I have learned that there are rare few universal practices in Wing Chun. :( A little more description may help some other readers too, perhaps even someone who can offer the specific insight you seek.

Regards,
- Kathy Jo

[edward]

should be horitzonal.... if you think about it... fok sau motion is forward drill, if you flick vertically that's the direction the fok sau will go...

think of how a snake moves forward....it does that by moving side to side, not up and down...

[Vankuen]

When I perform fook sau, I use it with forward intention, with the fook moving horizontally.

"From one thing know ten thousand" - Miyomato Musashi, Book of five rings

[cha kuen]

I think the "flick" you're referring to is the wu sao, with a little fwd intention.

[mun hung]

They're talking about the fook sau. I've seen Randy Williams doing the flicking fook sau on tape also. I guess he has a different idea when it comes to forward motion. Who knows?

[Sleepflower]

The flick is no in the Sil Lim Tao but we practice the flick when we do fook sau. Drills etc.

The reason why I asked is because we have two different teachers. One tells us to end in a vertical position (almost like a low Wu sau)and the other in a more horizontal position.

[kj]

Hi Sleepflower.

Your follow up helps in understanding your questions more clearly. While, as mentioned previously, in the way that I practice, we don't have a characteristic wrist "flick," our wrist may sometimes look "loose." As for vertical or horizontal - we have both positions for fook sau, and usage "depends." In the slow section of SLT we have the fook sau with wrist bones placed vertically. The flat fook sau can be found in other areas of our forms. The fook can also transition from one of those positions to the other without losing it's "fookiness" if you will. :D Note that if you keep your elbow in its nominal position (mai jang, not fai jang) and without moving the elbow (or your shoulder, or body position) you then rotate your wrist, that the bones of your forearm will turn and twist. [The relevance of this assumes that you have at least some part of the forearm in contact with the partner's arm, rather than just touching at the hands or wrist joint.] At any rate, our preference for one fook sau position or the other - or the desire to utilize the rotating motion - will depend on what is happening and what the relative positions are. The position and orientation of the partner's forearm, and the direction and magnitude of their force will provide some tactile indications of what is most effective for the situation.

I write all this, not with the assumption that you and I are taught or practice the same, but rather in hopes of offering some food for thought; some things to look at and begin to examine, analyze and experiment with for yourself. It should also be a big help to ask your respective teachers "why" their preference for one way or the other. It could be that they each see different advantages in the same situation, or it could be that they see different situations and are actually in agreement. Perhaps they each see particular but different development opportunities they want you to focus on just now. Of course they may also hold strictly to one or the other because that is how they were taught. These and more possible reasons. In any case, it seems to promise a great learning opportunity for you. :)

Regards,
- kj

[Tap Man]

Here is the explanation behind the wrist action, as we utilize it in Crca Wing Chun:

the Fook Sau used in the Look Sau cycle is called the "Riding Hand" because it only moves as a result of the upward or downward drill of the Rolling Hand it is resting on. This is not to say that it "lays dead" during the cycle, only that it moves with the Rolling Hand, and if and when that hand stops, so does the Fook Sau.

The Riding Hand should be draped over the Rolling Hand with Bridge Contact occurring just past the wrist of the Boang Tan. In the fully downward position i.e. when the Rolling Hand is in Tan Sau position, the elbow of the Fook Sau should be kept in Mai Jahng position. This will protect the Centerline with both the wrist and elbow. The wrist of the Riding Hand should be snapped back toward the trainee with the last three fingers metering the presence and intentions of the Rolling Hand.

As the Rolling Hand moves up from Tan Sau to Boang Sau, the Riding Hand should follow it, maintaining Bridge Contact at the inner wrist. As it moves upward, the elbow should remain in Mai Jahng position and the wrist should flip slightly upward toward straightening before loosely snapping back inward to Fook Sau position on completion of the upward cycle. At the top of the cycle, the trainee should create a loose, sideward whip of the wrist that resembles the action of flinging water from the fingers toward the opposite shoulder of the partner, as if the Riding Hand were soaking wet and he was trying to throw the water off his hand onto his partner. This action creates a sideward "shake" of the wrist, which in turn focuses the Chi forward and down into the Boang Sau, yet allows the arm of the Riding Hand to remain relaxed. This relaxed sideward shake can be likened to the action of shaking a bucket of sand to settle its contents to the bottom. If the bucket is shaken up and down, the sand will never settle, but if it is shaken sideways, the granules will eventually be pulled down and packed to the bottom. Similarly, if the wrist is loosely shaken sideways and flipped inward, its power will be directed forward on the Centerline.

Hope that helps!
Tap Man
Out

[whippinghand]

You recently wrote an article with Augustine Fong, which addressed the Fuk Sau....

What do YOU think?

[joy chaudhuri]

"You recently wrote an article with Augustine Fong, which addressed the Fuk Sau....
What do YOU think?".
----------------------------------------------
Getting me into deep trouble while I was trying to lie low- the discussion is going in different
directions. Folks may not have seen the article yet-the pics speak for themselves. The original question(by Sleepwalker?) was horizontal or vertical. I am assuming we are talking about the basic fook sao which is in the first part of slt.
(Positions will vary in differnt applications).
The basic fook sao in the start of the slt-
(same position as the basic low fook sao at the start of chi sao)- should best have the hand horizontal
IMO- with the fingers slightly coming in. The coming in motion(yin/yang energy relationship)
helps with themoving forward energy of the center of the forearm bone structure. Once fully practiced this way and the yin/yang relationship is internalised- it carries over to wherever the fook sao goes. If the fook sao moves upward as in chi sao a natural adjustment of the angle - then a little
more verticalangle would result.No deliberate flicking-
at the end of the motion upward a natural action/reaction physics may make the fook looking like it is being flipped or flicked.Again the tyrrany of language in describing a motion on the net!! I wont confuse it further by talking about different applications of the fok sau.Cheers.

[vingtsunstudent]

hello to those who remember me & hello to those who don't.
seems like i'm rocking the boat already but i have a different version & reason for the fook (hooking) hand again.
i was told that originally fook was taught with the palm flat & horizontal to the ground(tan turned at 90 degrees).the reason the hand positioned was changed to have the hooking shape is so that it takes the emphasis away from the wrist when pushing foward(apparently when it was first being taught students had a hard time using force from the elbow)
the hand position we use is dictated by our wrist, the position of which is vertical(the top bone in the wrist directly above the other)
on the question of its use & position in chi sao, well i sat here for quite some time & was unable to put into words(to my satisfaction) for the moment an adequete response, however one thing i will say is that we never use the hand held in this position to hook or lock an opponent. i've never really ask about using it like that as that is not what we were told it was for but also to me using it like that would indicate the use of streght through the wrist, which again to us is a no no.
it's good to be back & am looking foward to some excellent conversations.
vts

[BiuJeeDawg]

In my opinion, your Fook Sau explanation was noncommital and uninformative. It's just my opinion.
I have a question for you, Are you the older guy in the article photos with Sifu Augustine Fong in the article everyone is discussing?

[This message was edited by Sihing73 on 10-23-01 at 09:55 AM.]

[whippinghand]

You like you're Wing Chun spoon fed, do you?

[This message was edited by Whipping Hand on 10-23-01 at 10:27 AM.]

[joy chaudhuri]

uninformative on fook sau? In the previous post I just addressed the vertical versus the horizontal issued brought out on the thread. Not a dissertaion on the fook sao. In what sense is it uninformative? What would you like to clarify
or have clarified? Ball on your court.

[BiuJeeDawg]

I am not uninformed about the Fook Sau. I am sorry. Could you clarify the psychobabble you used to describe Fook Sau and how it relates to combat sticky hands or real fighting?

[This message was edited by Sihing73 on 10-23-01 at 12:47 PM.]

[joy chaudhuri]

No point in my directing to you more of what you label as "psychobabel". You say that you are not uninformed. Why not share the substance of your knowledge with others on the list? Hopefully you will go beyond labels to ideas and substance. :)

[whippinghand]

"relates to combat sticky hands or real fighting?"

What is "combat sticky hands"?

[wingchunalex]

i think fook should be done horizontally most of the time. i do it with a flick of the wrist inward so it has a bit more of a garb to it. fook sau can also be done sort of like jut sau but with the palm facing down and it drawing back toward you and not down as in jut. fook is done this way on the dummy set.

know yourself don't show yourself, think well of yorself don't tell of yourself. lao tzu

[vertical fist]

From what little exposure I've had to it, I understand it to be chi sau with improvised attacking and defending; a type of sparring somewhat. Tap Man could better explain.

[whippinghand]

Anyone who sees their chi sau as a combat of any kind, is wasting his time with Wing Chun.

[vertical fist]

Sure, chi sau is a "laboratory". "Combat" just describes how you're doing it; meaning, improvising attacks, counters and such.

I don't know what's up with BiujeeDawg or his insults to yuan fen. :rolleyes: :(

[joy chaudhuri]

"I don't know what's up with BiujeeDawg or his insults to yuan fen"
---------------------------------------
Dunno. Strange. Have never done anything for him <g>

[whippinghand]

Too much "combat chi sau".

He hasn't learned how to harness his "chi" yet.

[BiuJeeDawg]

According to my study, Wing Chun is a combat system comprised of theories and principles which varies depending on the "Individual". Wing Chun is very adaptable to the individual which translates into individual interpretation. I am a devoted practioner of CRCA Wing Chun. I will attempt to give you a very brief explanation of CRCA's interpretation of "Fook Sau" and "Combat Sticky Hands".
Fook Sau also known as Bridging hand uses palm and/or fingers to control the opponent. The thumb and index finger are extended and pinched together lightly while the other three fingers are closed with the hand turned slightly downward. The wrist is on the Centerline and bent sharply inward. The elbow is bent 135° and the rotation of the forearm should put the thumb side of the wrist bone facing upward. The inner forearm muscle should remain soft and relaxed. In Chee Sau, Fook Sau is referred to as a "Riding Hand" which refers to the relaxed-wrist, elbow-in Fook Sau position which itself initiates no positive action in the cycle. The Fook Sau "rides" the Rolling Hand(Boang Sau) with constant light forward/inward pressure. Also, Fook Sau is not another name for Hooking hand.

Gwoh Sau" can be translated as "Crossing Hands" or, more commonly, "Combat Double Sticky Hands". Gwoh Sau should be thought of as a form of cooperative exercise - like Siu Leem Tau with a partner - not as a real fight. Gwoh Sau is by nature competitive but, like all great physical contests, it is governed by strict rules and participants should display sportsmanlike conduct throughout the exercise, even on the unavoidable occasions when someone is accidentally hit with excessive force during the heat of competition.

[joy chaudhuri]

Thanks for the description of your fook sao-the devil is in the details and details can vary.

Gee I am learning whipping hand's brevity- hope he forgives me. :cool:

[whippinghand]

You use a lot of words, but you don't say much.

[whippinghand]

Does his post not remind you of that song by Neil Diamond.... "Long Fellow Serenade". If you know the words, you'll know what I mean.

[hunt1]

Sorry to say this but your fook sau is all fooked up?(i know oldie but a goodie).Since you are a devoted follower of CRCA methods I will not even attempt to explain how wrong your usage of fook sau is.Assuming you perform it the way you and Tapman describe.

[joy chaudhuri]

Long fellow serenade? Dont know that one!

[whippinghand]

What is CRCA?

[joy chaudhuri]

CRCA=Randy Williams

[Sihing73]

Hello,

Yuan Fen is correct about this being affiliated with Randy Williams.

CRCA=Close Range Combat Academy

Correct me if I am wrong ;)

Peace,

Dave

[BiuJeeDawg]

Everyone has an opinion. It's not a matter of right or wrong. It's all about if your interpretation works for you!!That's what makes Wing Chun so beautiful. That's the issue that we have with most cats on these forumns. You are so quick to make out of place comments about CRCA and Sifu Williams. It's all pointless.

Just remember that when you criticize, you point the finger. And when you point the finger, you forget that you have three pointing back at you!

Why don't you try to contribute to the advancement of the system versus expending energy on pointless remarks about Sifu Williams??

[hunt1]

You are right about senseless critisismbut I havent read any about RW under this topic(havent read evrypost though so may be wrong) However you have a very closed mind yourself.WC is not just about interpretation.While there is no right or wrong there is most definatly a poor better best scale when looking at the application of a technique.The fook sau you describe has several very clear and obvious weaknesses.It is sad that you care more about randy's reputaion than your own WC but that is your choice.
Pointing to poor usage is not an attack on Randy or anyone else poor is poor.One should seek to understand,correct and improve not blindly defend.

[Sihing73]

Hello,

Just so you are aware, I have not downgraded anything concerning Randy Williams nor the CRCA. I also believe that this topic has progressed without degenerating to that level as well. Your profile could be misinterpretted or construed in a negative manner. You state that you are here, actually you spelled it hear ;) "I am a faithful practioner of CRCA Wing Chun. I am hear to attempt to set them straight on all CRCA related comments." Please realize that each system/lineage/method is only as good or bad as those that practice it. For some one way may work better than for someone else. Each lineage has examples of those who can make it work for them, otherwise people would not take those systems, for the most part anyway. My suggestion is to let personalities and opinions stay out of discussions. Discuss the merits of the method not the merits of the individual.

Oh, BTW, I introduced a guy to Wing Chun and he now trains and teaches in Bloomsburg under Randy Williams. His name is Bob Tomano, so I don't have any axe to grind with you or other members of the CRCA. Still, when one leaves the discussion about the "system" and moves into personalities problems can occur.

Peace,

Dave

[whippinghand]

Perhaps, if you CRCA guys didn't try to shove "CRCA" down our throats, you wouldn't encounter such resistance.

[BiuJeeDawg]

Sihing73 – Thank you for your wise words. My comments were not directed at one particular person. There are a few folks out there who find it justifiable to validate their WC by cutting down others. I agree totally with your point that individuals and opinions should be removed from the forum. But almost once a month for the past year, Sifu Williams name is mentioned on a forum. I haven't seen other practioners mentioned You are doing an excellent job in moderating. Great Job! Perhaps fellows such as Whipping Hand could take time out to learn from you. I appreciate your approach.

Here’s a posting that Mr. Whipping Hand posted in July:
Whipping Hand Member posted 07-26-01 11:18 PM

It is obvious by this letter...
... that Randy Williams sucks.


Hunt1 – I am not going to begin a battle of words with you. However, you apparently haven’t read every posting on this site nor should you. No, Sifu Williams wasn’t criticize in this posting. BUT MY POINT IS WHY BRING HIS NAME UP. Your point about interpretation is your own. I respect that. Please try to refrain from value judgements such as stating that “I am closed minded”. Please respect my interpretation as I respect yours. I believe that’s the purpose of this forum. Please remember the old saying, One man’s junk is another’s treasure. Respect EVERY INDIVIDUAL! What works for me may not work for you and vice versa. So, your poor, better, best scale is individually defined which is my point. CRCA Wing Chun is our interpretation that we use to expand our own WC. Please respect it!! Question- How would you feel if people started making public comments about your teacher that weren’t true or justified? Who is your teacher?


Whipping Hand – No one is trying to shove anything down your throat. You don’t have to buy the videos or books. It’s a choice. What’s your beef with CRCA? What's the cause of your view? How would you feel if someone started making comments about your teacher in the public forum? Who is your teacher?


Nam myoho renge kyo

[hunt1]

I have had several teachers,some for years some for a few days.The reason is I found that I never believed that my Sifu had all the answers.I found questions that required more information so I always seek out more knowledge.The first person to authorize me to teach was Samuel Kwok since then others have done so but since he was first I stay within his framework.However the WC I use personally and at times teach is not necessarily the same.

Again I want to point out the my criticism is that the technique's you mention have obvious flaws.They are poor by any definition.When someone would point out a poor technique to me I would learn the technique their way and then use it.The truth becomes clear.If you were here I could easily show you what is wrong with the Fook Sau you use.
Make fun of my teachers it doesnt matter to me .A good student should grow beyond his teacher not be limited by the teachers limitations.

[whippinghand]

"What’s your beef with CRCA? What's the cause of your view? How would you feel if someone started making comments about your teacher in the public forum?"

My beef with CRCA? People, such as yourself, whining and sobbing about what others are saying about your leader.

The cause of my view? People, such as yourself, whining and sobbing about what others are saying about your leader.

Comments about my teacher? I would dishonor him if ever I were to defend him.

I've never seen your leader, never purchased his books or videos... The only encounter I've had with CRCA is in reading the whining posts, by his followers, on this forum. And in doing so, you've left a poor impression.

[Sharky]

not as bad an impression you've left on your sifu, whippy.

All i wanted was some RICE CAKES! Now? WE MUST BATTLE.

[BiuJeeDawg]

Hunt1 - It's never been my approach to make fun of another teachers. To do such would put me in the same league as Mr. Whipping Hand. That's not my style. Thanks for sharing with me who your teacher is. Where is your school located? Due to the relative possibility of you showing me the flaws. Can you tell me where the flaws are in the fook sau that I use? I would be quite interested in knowing your view. Thanks.

Whipping Hand - Interesting response, my friend. It appears that your life condition is causing you much frustration. If you are open to friendly advice, YOU SHOULD LOOK WITHIN ALITTLE MORE. What makes you upset about CRCA could be something that you are missing in your life and training. You have invested alot of negative energy towards a person that you have never met. You are quite entitled to your opinions and views. Just keep it out of the public forum. As far as our postings to defend our teacher, I am so sorry to hear that you don't have the same respect for your teacher. So, Who is your teacher???

[whippinghand]

Thank you for the formula analysis...

Your WC must be very technique based, huh?

[This message was edited by Whipping Hand on 11-12-01 at 12:35 PM.]

[Sihing73]

Hello,

I am a bit dissappointed in the way this topic is progressing. It seems to be the same old thing with slights and insults abounding. I will ask everyone to return to the topic at hand and leave the personal differences outside. If this is not possible then I will be closing this topic.

As always anyone wishing to discuss this is free to e-mail me. I can be reached at either of the following:
sihing73@juno.com
dmcknight@rcn.com

Move forward please :o

Peace,

Dave