Single Whip: Yang, Chen and Wu differences?

[Tai Chi Shawn]

Though its still very early in my Wu training, there's a motion that I've seen in the various styles that looks slightly different in each, and I was curious if it was always applied the same accross the styles?

Single Whip: (I hope I have the name right) the rear hand is in a monkey's fist, while the forward arm makes a circular motion out to the front with the palm facing out like a palm strike. I believe that's single whip (or at least a poor description of it). And I get the impression its a throw, likely a break, and possibly some other stuff.

My question: In Chen style (or it could be Yang), they appear to do it from a bow stance, but in Wu style, it appears to be trained from a horse (I'm not that far in the first 108 form yet, but I've seen the whole form a number of times now). Is the application the same, just from a different stance, or is it uniquely applied in each style respectively?

shawn

[jon]

I cant really say im qualified to answer this question so what im stating now is just personal observation. Ive learnt the hard way that everytime i try to define something about Taijiquan within a couple of months my understanding has deepened and what i thought before suddenly seems less relevent.


The application and more importantly the intent is different in single whip in most variations on Taijiquan that ive experienced.

You have to remember that a movement is just a movement and what is important is how someone is using it. To this end people will change the intent of there movement over time and becouse of this the flow and meaning of the technique will change alongside.

There is also something in the name 'dan bian' which is worth noting. Single whip teaches a type of power and how it can be manifested and used.


Postures and martial intents become more and more meaningfull at first and then less and less as you progress. At first you body is simply trying to make the right shape, then its leaning to use the shape. After a while it could be one shape or a million shapes it really doesnt matter, what matters is how its generated and to what purpose.

Ive seen a multitude of different applications to single whip and my personal applications have changed so many times now its become meaningless. The method of manipulating the ging is what is important.

I realise this post doesnt make a lot of sence and may even seem a little contradictory. Please forgive my limited understandings and ability to express them. Its just no one else was posting and i thought it was a shame to let the question go by with commenting.


PS good luck in your Wu style practice, i am a Yang man myself but my sifu loves Wu style and ive been lucky to push with a few of Ma Yu Liang's old students thanks to his introductions. Wu style done well is exceptionaly good gung fu in my opinion.

[SPJ]

Excellent post.

[Tai Chi Shawn]

I agree - thanx Jon. You answered my question nicely. I'm accustomed to there being a fixed number of applications to a given move, you train them over and over. Of course, you occassionally stumble onto a couple that work well for you, but thats part of MAs. I didn't really think about the fluid and changing nature of Tai Chi and the internal arts. Now I'm even more excited about my Wu training - if this keeps up, I might have to lie down. :)

shawn

[scholar]

There are hundreds of applications to Single Whip in Wu style, and I assume the other styles as well. There are strikes, throws, joint locks, breaks, kicks, techniques for multiple opponents, you name it. It mostly depends on where the bad guys are standing relative to you!

Sifu Eddie will introduce a few basic applications for students to train at first, and as their pushing hands and resulting understanding of the basic principles grows, they will be able to deduce many more. Sifu's late grandfather used to say "The form is like a treasure chest, everything is in it and the longer you look, the more you can take out of it." :D

[norther practitioner]

I've trained it as mainly an arm break, but that has a hard set up, however, that is when I finally felt the 'power' behind the move..

I've been thinking of a few throws from that now however.

[scholar]

The most common one I know of is over the leg that you are shifting your weight onto (you'll have stepped behind the guy) with the same arm. You can also get an arm break with a grab from your other hand out of the same motion, if you don't have room to throw or even if you do. Grasp Bird's Tail has a similar throw over your positive leg, if from a different position (closer in from a shoulder strike instead of a step) and with chi (press) impact as a finisher instead of the arm break.

[cam]

Hi everyone, Cam here and this is my first post.
As I believe an email sent to Tai Chi Shawn was the impetus for his question, well here's my 2-cents.
If the attacker comes in with a right-handed strike, the defender will intercept the punch with both hands, (lu I believe) and at the same time the defenders left foot will step in to a bow stance behind the attacker. Thus you are retreating and advancing all in the same motion.
As the defender switches weight to the left foot, his left hand will sweep to the right and down and then quickly sweep up and to the left. Depending on circumstances the defenders left shoulder should make initial contact with the attackers underarm and the left arm will follow through in front of the attackers body. After this you should be in a classic Single Whip posture, well classic for me http://forum.kungfumagazine.com/forum/images/icons/icon10.gif
Talking
If you follow that up by turning your waist counterclockwise you should see the attacker falling over backwards, at least that's how it worked for me!

[Kaitain(UK)]

Hi Cam- welcome to the forum. However, I think that's a bit la-la land in terms of application. You dont need both arms to use lui- if you've taken the outside of their right arm with your right arm, then your peng energy should be sufficient to have redirected them past you. Your left arm should be striking simultaneously to the ward as you open their side. Try getting it to work on a jab - not so easy :)

My take of single whip is it's training the basic taiji striking motion - finding the straight line in the circle. It also trains the other arm to ward with the waist motion (in Yang style it's the first waist rotation around a single unshifting axis).

It's movement - application is something that happens, I dont believe one should train specifics to a movement until one can appreciate that it's just a possibility. Train an application and then discard it.

[cam]

Thanks for the feedback Kaitain, you are quite right about only needing the one hand to lu, I should have included that in my post. I imagine that's what the "la-la" comment was about, if not, could you please tell me the problem, apart from my description being a few thousand words short.

Please note, as a new-comer(2yrs chen), I spend the majority of my time trying to make sense of being substantial and insubstantial, getting my wuji right, working on silk reeling..... at the moment the application phase of my training is not so important.

[Tai Chi Shawn]

Hey Cam :) I just came back from Wu class - my legs are killing me.

Incidentally, if you combined Yang and Wu Styles, you would have "Wang" style. However, I fear the "pelvic tilt" might take on a new and unfortunate meaning.

shawn

[Kaitain(UK)]

Hi Cam- I have two points to make here.

1) The form and it's postures should be viewed as education in movement and structure - by training application to a posture you can lose all of the potential that's available. I prefer not to train applications to postures - I prefer to train responses to attacks and situations and see what happens. However, as a beginner I probably needed to be shown applications to get an understanding of the mechanics I was supposed to be applying in the movement.

If you are taking the route of applications to postures, then you must constantly strive to find new applications to your postures - and break the postures down into the individual components. Find the simplicity in the movements and learn to apply those.

2) The classics say "He moves, I arrive first". There are many interpretations of this, but my own is that it teaches taiji is not he strikes, I defend, I attack. Taiji should be: he starts to attack, I move and angle myself so that he misses, and as part of that movement and angle change, I hit him. Ward off is vital to this as it allows you to divert an attack without the opponent realising that he is going to miss (due to the softness of the redirection - it isnt a hard smashing block) - having redirected I can then use my warding arm to strike, or wrap him up.

As one improves, one's ability to detect 'intention' increases, to the point that the attacker doesnt appear to have started any kind of movement before being struck.

I felt that you application wasn't realistic because lui is not easily applied to a punch - more something that works once you have connected (I use it after striking most of the time). Additionally, the lack of a simultaneous strike means that you are allowing too much time between his failure to land, and your own strike. In all likelihood your opponent will have launched his next attack. It's a good application for a throw - just not in this context. Just my opinion though :)

Paul