San Shou

[19thlohan]

What's going on with san shou? Everyone seems to be useing san da rules now. Are there still san shou tournements around?

[Suntzu]

good question...... i like the san shou rules better..... but i'm getting better at throwing knees.... but still.....

[lkfmdc]

guys who like the san shou rules better are usually guys who have eaten a knee or two :)

I"m just joking, just joking :D

San Shou is pretty much dead though, even in China....

[19thlohan]

Originally posted by lkfmdc
guys who like the san shou rules better are usually guys who have eaten a knee or two :)

I"m just joking, just joking :D

San Shou is pretty much dead though, even in China....

I think it takes more skill to throw kicks in a style that allows catches and takedowns. Any one can clinch up and throw knees. To me san da is just another name for thai boxing, there isn't much difference between them. I also think knee fighting looks too much like a a street fight and I did more than enough of that growing up in fields corner (nasty little neiborhood). It will be a shame if there are no more san shou competitions.

[lkfmdc]

Originally posted by 19thlohan
I think it takes more skill to throw kicks in a style that allows catches and takedowns.

Why do you think there are no throws in San Da



Originally posted by 19thlohan
To me san da is just another name for thai boxing, there isn't much difference between them.
[/B]

Your comments are not very informed....

[19thlohan]

Originally posted by lkfmdc
Why do you think there are no throws in San Da




Your comments are not very informed....

I didn't say that. I know what san da is. I said it's not much different from thai boxing which also alows throws. Thier fighters usauly only kick out the suporting leg but they are allowed to do just about any throw they want. Landing a kick against a good fighter takes alot of timeing and good strategy. Knees can be applied with those skills but most guys who fight with knees are just tough guys who try to take more than thier opponant. It's ugly boring fighting.

Why aren't my comments well informed? Because you miss read them, because you don't know the thai boxing rules or because you're in denial that your sport is the same as what they do?

[lkfmdc]

Originally posted by 19thlohan
they are allowed to do just about any throw they want.



You really need to know what you are talking about before trying to lecture me. Read the official rules of Muay Thai, either the World Muay Thai Council rules or the rules of the Boxing Board of Thailand.... "throws" don't exist... they are illegal....

Your last post proves not only ignorance of the facts, but an astounding dillusion on your part.....

[norther practitioner]

oh, and welcome to kung fu mag. forums.

[MasterKiller]

Most people get a couple of hundred posts before lkfmdc reams them. This kid must be a prodigy.

[ShaolinTiger00]

Any one can clinch up and throw knees.

LMAO.... oh man.. this guy's a tool..

[lkfmdc]

no "reams", just FACTS

The World MuayThai Council Rules (WMC, 1995)
section 18 (the section that outlines foul and strikes violating the rules)
rule 18.2 wrestling, back or arm locks or any similar judo or wrestling hold are illegal.

Board of Boxing Sport Rules (Sport Authority of Thailand, 2002)
rule 16.2 states that, throwing, back breaking, locking opponents arms, using Judo and wrestling techniquesare all violations of the rules.

The Amateur MuayThai Association of Thailand, the Federation of Amateur MuayThai of Asia, and the International Federation of MuayThai Amateurs rules for Amateur MuayThai competition include rule 17 b (2) a throw on an opponent, a back breaking manoeuvre, an intentional fall over, a judo or wrestling throw to an opponent are fouls.

The following judo and wrestling moves are fouls (Board of Boxing Sport, 2002):

a) A boxer wraps his leg around the leg of their opponent from the inside or the outside and forces their opponent to the floor.
b) A boxer locks an opponents neck and executes a hip to shoulder or hip throw
c) A boxer grabs their opponents hip in a waist lock and throws using a hip throw
d) A boxer grabs an opponents arm, turns and uses their calf and back of their thigh (hamstring muscle group) to sweep an opponent’s legs from under them.
e) A boxer grabs an opponent and falls backward to throw their opponent
f) A boxer attempts a rugby style tackle on the legs and waist of an opponent
g) A boxer grabs their opponents waist from behind, then, placing a leg between their opponent’s legs, pulls their opponent backwards over their leg and hip
h) A boxer grabs their opponent from below the waist, lifting and throwing
i) A boxer catches their opponents leg and uses their other arm to push them off balance while taking more than two steps
j) A boxer catches their opponents leg and uses their calf muscle to trip/sweep an opponent off their feet
k) A boxer ankle trips their opponent
l) A boxer leg sweeps their opponent using the calf or inside of their foot
m) A boxer traps their opponents arms in a waist lock, lifts their opponent and throws
n) A boxer grabs an opponent from behind, lifts and throws
o) A boxer grabs around an opponents lower spine and hyper-extends their back in a back breaking move

[19thlohan]

Originally posted by lkfmdc

Your last post proves not only ignorance of the facts, but an astounding dillusion on your part..... [/B]

Your the one who misquoted me and then said that I was uniformed. Thats ignorance in it's finest form.

As for the thai boxing thing there are many orginizations that have different rules and some allow throws. If you want to consider your orginazation the offical one thats fine by me but san da is still identical to the thai boxing I've always watched and I don't like it!

[Brad]

So which thai boxing orgs allow throws? You going to stop being a tease and tell us? :D

[SifuAbel]

Originally posted by lkfmdc
Why do you think there are no throws in San Da.....

Your comments are not very informed....



I surprised you haven't posted your rules.

http://www.angelfire.com/sd2/kingofsanda/ksdrules.html


(4) Competitors are allowed to use any throw or takedown unless it results in a prohibited action. Please refer to the sections on “ILLEGAL TECHNIQUES” and “FOULS” for more information. Throws and takedowns accumulate points but do not count as knockdowns

[lkfmdc]

Originally posted by 19thlohan
As for the thai boxing thing there are many orginizations that have different rules and some allow throws.

Dear lord, you are dense aren't you?

I just posted the World Muay Thai Council (located in BANKOK THAILAND) and the Boxing Board of Thailand, when it comes to Muay Thai, that IS the only REAL Thai boxing....

[19thlohan]

Originally posted by lkfmdc
Dear lord, you are dense aren't you?

I just posted the World Muay Thai Council (located in BANKOK THAILAND) and the Boxing Board of Thailand, when it comes to Muay Thai, that IS the only REAL Thai boxing....

Oh come on. You think I'm dense and you post this. Muay thai is a traditional art dating back centuries with all kinds of techniques including weapons and yes throws. There are traditional tournements and there are other sport muay thai orginazations even in thai land. that may well be the largest or most recognized governing body but to say it's the only real thai boxing.... forget it ! You win. you know every thing about everything and your always right!

[lkfmdc]

Dude, face it, you talk about things you don't know anything about and when confronted with the facts you act all lame....

you're right, out of 18 lohans, you rank 19th... maybe lower....

[19thlohan]

Originally posted by lkfmdc
Dude, face it, you talk about things you don't know anything about and when confronted with the facts you act all lame....

you're right, out of 18 lohans, you rank 19th... maybe lower....

First I'm right about the thai boxing thing and second I made a statement about why I don't like san da as much as san shou and you miss quote it , sling insults, tell everyone how full of yourself you are, claim that the rules of the world muay thai council (one orginization)are the official rules of all muay thai in general, sling more insults when I don't except your word as law, and finaly take cheap grade school level shots at a posting name (clever by the way, compaired to the rest of your posts anyway). Do you even know what lame ignorant or dense means?

[Reggie1]

*gets popcorn and sits back*

:D

[SanShou Guru]

19th um Sanda is basically San Shou with knees added and done in a ring. Unless you think San Shou is Muay Thai without knees then you have a point, not a good one, but a point.

I'll assume you are not a Boston San Shou person. If you are we need to talk. If you are not then we should talk.

[Liokault]

I was watching a thai boxing fight late last year on TV. The standard was profesional with a few less than half the guys fighting being from thailand.

I really couldnt see the differance between what they were doing and san da! One guy was putting in hip throws, catching kicks and sweeping and even grabbing leggs and throwing.


Its only a rule if its enforced.

[lkfmdc]

Originally posted by 19thlohan
First I'm right about the thai boxing thing

No, you are wrong. The rules of Thai boxing make throws illegal. I've posted the official rules, all you can do is keep jumping up and down and claim you are right... that's why you are both ignorant and dense....



Originally posted by 19thlohan claim that the rules of the world muay thai council (one orginization)are the official rules of all muay thai in general]

The World Muay Thai Council rules ARE the official rules of the sport... the fact you try to argue otherwise is more evidence you are ignorant and dense...

Might was well try to argue that "boxing" isn't the WBA, WBC, IBF, WBO or NABF but instead is the rules you use in your matches in your back yard :rolleyes:


Originally posted by 19thlohan
I don't except your word as law

[/B]

I posted the exact rules, the exact paragraphs and sub chapters and the text of the rules... and you just try and say "I'm right" with no evidence

:rolleyes:

[lkfmdc]

The World MuayThai Council Rules (WMC, 1995)
section 18 (the section that outlines foul and strikes violating the rules)
rule 18.2 wrestling, back or arm locks or any similar judo or wrestling hold are illegal.

Board of Boxing Sport Rules (Sport Authority of Thailand, 2002)
rule 16.2 states that, throwing, back breaking, locking opponents arms, using Judo and wrestling techniquesare all violations of the rules.

The Amateur MuayThai Association of Thailand, the Federation of Amateur MuayThai of Asia, and the International Federation of MuayThai Amateurs rules for Amateur MuayThai competition include rule 17 b (2) a throw on an opponent, a back breaking manoeuvre, an intentional fall over, a judo or wrestling throw to an opponent are fouls.

The following judo and wrestling moves are fouls (Board of Boxing Sport, 2002):

a) A boxer wraps his leg around the leg of their opponent from the inside or the outside and forces their opponent to the floor.
b) A boxer locks an opponents neck and executes a hip to shoulder or hip throw
c) A boxer grabs their opponents hip in a waist lock and throws using a hip throw
d) A boxer grabs an opponents arm, turns and uses their calf and back of their thigh (hamstring muscle group) to sweep an opponent’s legs from under them.
e) A boxer grabs an opponent and falls backward to throw their opponent
f) A boxer attempts a rugby style tackle on the legs and waist of an opponent
g) A boxer grabs their opponents waist from behind, then, placing a leg between their opponent’s legs, pulls their opponent backwards over their leg and hip
h) A boxer grabs their opponent from below the waist, lifting and throwing
i) A boxer catches their opponents leg and uses their other arm to push them off balance while taking more than two steps
j) A boxer catches their opponents leg and uses their calf muscle to trip/sweep an opponent off their feet
k) A boxer ankle trips their opponent
l) A boxer leg sweeps their opponent using the calf or inside of their foot
m) A boxer traps their opponents arms in a waist lock, lifts their opponent and throws
n) A boxer grabs an opponent from behind, lifts and throws
o) A boxer grabs around an opponents lower spine and hyper-extends their back in a back breaking move

Go ahead, cite something that backs up YOUR argument....

[19thlohan]

What are the rules to san shou and san da?

[lkfmdc]

LOL, for a guy who acted a minute ago like he knew everything, suddenly you seem, well, IGNORANT of a lot of the facts....:D

[19thlohan]

Originally posted by lkfmdc
LOL, for a guy who acted a minute ago like he knew everything, suddenly you seem, well, IGNORANT of a lot of the facts....:D

I asked to make a point and that was an awfully evasive answer for a guy who acted like he knew everything a minute ago.

[lkfmdc]

to make what point, that you don't know what you are talking about? Well, you've made that point already...

The rules of both San Shou and San Da allow almost every form of throw or takedown, the only two exceptions are you can't drive someone onto their neck and you can't throw them off the lei tai or out of the ring, compare those rules to the many restrictions on throwing in Muay Thai....

Just admit you are wrong, stop trying to act clever, it isn't working....

[19thlohan]

Originally posted by lkfmdc
to make what point, that you don't know what you are talking about? Well, you've made that point already...

The rules of both San Shou and San Da allow almost every form of throw or takedown, the only two exceptions are you can't drive someone onto their neck and you can't throw them off the lei tai or out of the ring, compare those rules to the many restrictions on throwing in Muay Thai....

Just admit you are wrong, stop trying to act clever, it isn't working....

You don't have a complete list of rules for the style you teach and promote?

[lkfmdc]

I'm assuming you don't read Chinese (heck, you barely read ENGLISH!)....

In English

http://www.iwuf.org/rules/rules_of_Sanshou_Chinese.doc

http://www.angelfire.com/sd2/kingofsanda/ksdrules.html

[19thlohan]

Originally posted by lkfmdc
I'm assuming you don't read Chinese (heck, you barely read ENGLISH!)....

In English

http://www.iwuf.org/rules/rules_of_Sanshou_Chinese.doc

http://www.angelfire.com/sd2/kingofsanda/ksdrules.html

More cheap insults, you're so clever.

So if you don't follow the rules at link one your not doing san shou and if you don't follow the rules at link two your not doing san da?

[David Jamieson]

A foul isn't exactly "illegal" it's a foul and works against points acquired.

I've watched the thai boxing from thailand too and there's trips, sweeps, tosses that look like well calculated retreats or pushes(just fancy technique to achieve the throw really)

There is a lot of similarity in practice between the three.
Although I don't think elbows are allowed in western muay thai where the are in thailand. there's elbows and knees applenty in thai boxing.

I would say that in my viewers opinion, Muay Thai from thailand stands out while san da/san shou and american kickboxing look very similar to each other in practice.

I think a kickboxer could make the transitions to the western rules sets easier than a kickboxer could get good at muay thai to a level where he could enter their rings. But there's always an exception or two. Those own or two innate fighters who can fit any venue that involves beating the parsley out of someones salad before thoroughly tossing it.

[Suntzu]

Originally posted by lkfmdc
guys who like the san shou rules better are usually guys who have eaten a knee or two :)

:( sad... but true:( .......... :D

[Suntzu]

stands out while san da/san shou and american kickboxing look very similar to each other in practice. that's a first..... i didn't know american kickboxing allowed leg kicks.... kick catches... knees.... or clinch fighting...... i find the clinch to be the BIGGEST difference in san da and muay thai.... muay thai fighter TEND to just the first clinch position and try to work the knees from there.... it's just grab and knee(i say TEND.... i'm sure it's not universal)..... where as in san da the clinch is ALWAYS moving.... and exhausting... going from one position to the next......

[jungle-mania]

This is more directed to KungLek and lkfmdc, but I would be grateful if everyone else shared their views too. I will be fighting again in May in a sanshou match, does anyone have any techniques or combos to recommend.

Currently, I use this combos and counters. BTW I am a southpaw.

combos:
jab, cross, lead hook
front roundhouse to waist or thigh, jab, cross
double lead sidekick to either head, waist or thigh
jab, cross, rear roundhouse kick to the head or inner thigh
double jab, takedown
rear leg sidekick to retreating opponent after punching
multi punches, followed by sisscor leg takedown

counters:
leg grabs to kicks, followed by throws or sweep.
reverse roundhouse kick to head when opponent tries to circle
jumping back kick to waist at charging opponent.

There are techniques I use, but these are the common one I use often, anyone care to recommend other techniques to use.

[David Jamieson]

dude, imo, it comes down to this.

1.understand the rules

2.do what works for you when in the fight.

I say that because your opponents are each gonna be different and are gonna have different attributes in their own conditioning, endurance and techniques.

get to the top of your game as best as you can conditioning and endurance wise. Find out which techniques are highest percentage for you against a variety of opponents and drill the **** out of those techs and practice them with live resisting opponents as oftenm as you can.

go fight and see where you get!

good luck!

[norther practitioner]

see sifu ross' sanda dvd thread.. and order one...

find out what works for you within the ruleset, as kl suggested.


Originally posted by jungle-mania
This is more directed to KungLek and lkfmdc, but I would be grateful if everyone else shared their views too. I will be fighting again in May in a sanshou match, does anyone have any techniques or combos to recommend.

Currently, I use this combos and counters. BTW I am a southpaw.

combos:
jab, cross, lead hook
front roundhouse to waist or thigh, jab, cross
double lead sidekick to either head, waist or thigh
jab, cross, rear roundhouse kick to the head or inner thigh
double jab, takedown
rear leg sidekick to retreating opponent after punching
multi punches, followed by sisscor leg takedown

counters:
leg grabs to kicks, followed by throws or sweep.
reverse roundhouse kick to head when opponent tries to circle
jumping back kick to waist at charging opponent.

There are techniques I use, but these are the common one I use often, anyone care to recommend other techniques to use.

[ShaolinTiger00]

Originally posted by jungle-mania
This is more directed to KungLek and lkfmdc, but I would be grateful if everyone else shared their views too. I will be fighting again in May in a sanshou match, does anyone have any techniques or combos to recommend.

Currently, I use this combos and counters. BTW I am a southpaw.

combos:
jab, cross, lead hook
front roundhouse to waist or thigh, jab, cross
double lead sidekick to either head, waist or thigh
jab, cross, rear roundhouse kick to the head or inner thigh
double jab, takedown
rear leg sidekick to retreating opponent after punching
multi punches, followed by sisscor leg takedown

counters:
leg grabs to kicks, followed by throws or sweep.
reverse roundhouse kick to head when opponent tries to circle
jumping back kick to waist at charging opponent.

There are techniques I use, but these are the common one I use often, anyone care to recommend other techniques to use.

you're a southpaw. work your left cross. cut the ring off.

keep your combinations short & sweet.

work on your grappling. you said nothing of your clinch and if you think "takedown" is that simple then it's going to be a long night...

[jungle-mania]

Thanks for the insight, what do you mean by "cut the ring off"?

Do work on my grappling a large bit, most takedowns I do for offense is shooting and leg grabs for counters. For added training, I do wrestling, but tailored more towards sanshou rules.

Is grappling more important now than striking for the current international sanshou rules? Something that is bugging me for a while, or is it still a 50/50 issue?

[Akhilleus]

19th,

I apologize for the poor manners of some of our younger posters...I haven't really seen much san da, but have you ever seen kuoshu style fighting? I think that you might enjoy it, as the rules are in some ways less restrictive than muay thai or san da...

[Mutant]

19thlohan; come visit us at boston sanshou and we'll teach you all about the differences between mauy thai and san da. san shou and san da are very similar actually, san da just has a slight rules variation to deal with, but its basically the same thing. theyre a unique animal, only the uninitiated think its just like thai boxing or american rules kickboxing.

And then if youre still mad at lkfmdc we'll set up a match for you w/ one of his guys and then you can show us how much you really know about this stuff ;)

BTW, we're opening a big new training center at 1031 Commonwealth Ave in Boston (right near the EMS store) real soon, offering both traditional CMA and san shou / san da, should be open by next summer.

Until then you (0r anyone else reading who may be interested) can check out a san da class taught by Marvin Perry http://www.marvinperry.org/ for only $12 / class at the Brookline Community Center, he's currently teaching at 6pm on monday and friday evenings (maybe some other nights too, email him thru his site for current schedule). He also offers private training sessions.
Then you could find out exactly what san da really is.

[lkfmdc]

Originally posted by MutantWarrior


And then if youre still mad at lkfmdc we'll set up a match for you w/ one of his guys and then you can show us how much you really know about this stuff ;)



:D

[Water Dragon]

Originally posted by lkfmdc
:D

So, ya going to the Arnold's this year? I know how much love you have for the event :D

[19thlohan]

Originally posted by Akhilleus
19th,
but have you ever seen kuoshu style fighting? I think that you might enjoy it, as the rules are in some ways less restrictive than muay thai or san da...

I've heard that they use this name instead of san shou in taiwan but I've never seen a tournament advertised for it around here.

[19thlohan]

Originally posted by MutantWarrior
19thlohan; come visit us at boston sanshou and we'll teach you all about the differences between mauy thai and san da. san shou and san da are very similar actually, san da just has a slight rules variation to deal with, but its basically the same thing. theyre a unique animal, only the uninitiated think its just like thai boxing or american rules kickboxing.


Thanks. I've trained in all three before and I already have a place to train I was just looking for info on san shou tournaments. I've done san da before but becuase they allow knees it turns 75% or more of the fighters into tough guys who don't care about skill and unless I personally see a big change in that I wouldn't go again.

[lkfmdc]

Originally posted by 19thlohan
Thanks. I've trained in all three before and I already have a place to train I was just looking for info on san shou tournaments. I've done san da before but becuase they allow knees it turns 75% or more of the fighters into tough guys who don't care about skill and unless I personally see a big change in that I wouldn't go again.

Where have you trained San Shou and San Da?

Where did you fight San Da rules before?

Be specific, because some us might otherwise think you are full of it.....

[Mutant]

Originally posted by 19thlohan
Thanks. I've trained in all three before and I already have a place to train I was just looking for info on san shou tournaments. I've done san da before but becuase they allow knees it turns 75% or more of the fighters into tough guys who don't care about skill and unless I personally see a big change in that I wouldn't go again.

Okay, gotcha. You must be one of Lefty's peeps, right? I like you guys, and he runs a great club. Don't give up entirely on San Da, we need all the CMA fighters in this sport that we can get, otherwise we do end up fighting a lot of mauy thai guys, and those match-ups often do have a different flavor (although i think theyre still a good experience). I still insist san da is quite different than mauy thai. I hear what your saying though.
Peace.