Kung fu Kicking questions

[Judge Pen]

I have three questions regarding kicking:

(1) how many kung fu styles include a side thrust kick (striking target is the heel of the foot and not the side edge of the foot)?

(2) how many non-kung fu styles kick their hand with certain crecent and front kicks?

(3) How many non-kung fu styles use a hit-kick (puncing and kicking at the same time; usually opposite hand and foot)?

[Hua Lin Laoshi]

Wah Lum fits the description although we have a weird kind of a side kick. More like a straight heel kick to the side. Hard to explain. Ask the ex-WL guys you know next time you see them.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Judge Pen

(1) how many kung fu styles include a side thrust kick (striking target is the heel of the foot and not the side edge of the foot)?

When I was training long fist, we did. I've always personally hated the side edge of the foot variety.

(2) how many non-kung fu styles kick their hand with certain crecent and front kicks?

I've never seen a non-cma school that does this.

(3) How many non-kung fu styles use a hit-kick (puncing and kicking at the same time; usually opposite hand and foot)?

in thai boxing, we do leg block-hit. In the movie ong bak, there was a technique where he kneed and punched the guy simultaneously.

kali will knee-hit as well.

[MasterKiller]

FYI,
The move JP is talking about is shown here (3rd move).

http://www.geocities.com/wushugungfu/wubuchuan

[Judge Pen]

Yep, that's it. Either palm down or palm up with the hit.

Side-kick: Any other than WL and Long-fist?

[sean_stonehart]

Originally posted by Judge Pen
I have three questions regarding kicking:

(1) how many kung fu styles include a side thrust kick (striking target is the heel of the foot and not the side edge of the foot)?

(2) how many non-kung fu styles kick their hand with certain crecent and front kicks?

(3) How many non-kung fu styles use a hit-kick (puncing and kicking at the same time; usually opposite hand and foot)?

1) as HLL said... they do & I've seen it in their sets.

2) TKD that use pyang-ahn forms (#5), Shotokan Heian #5, Kanku-dai, I've seen it in Goju-ryu in one set

3) Haven't seen that per se with what you're talking specifically.

[Brad]

(1) how many kung fu styles include a side thrust kick (striking target is the heel of the foot and not the side edge of the foot)?
Not sure. I use the heel, and I wasn't corrected when I took a bit of TKD(never went past white belt though), and the only other non-CMA lessons I took was from a guy claiming to teach CMA(when in fact he didn't).


(2) how many non-kung fu styles kick their hand with certain crecent and front kicks?
Haven't seen any yet(other than the fake guy I mentioned before ;)).


(3) How many non-kung fu styles use a hit-kick (puncing and kicking at the same time; usually opposite hand and foot)?
I only remember seeing that specific combo in chang quan styles. In TKD I've seen both kick and hand strike a couple times(usually with the same hand & foot though, except for a certain jump kick). The big difference I've seen is the chang quan people tend to not pull the kick back after throwing it... instead it usually flows straight into another technique in that direction a lot of times.

[Hua Lin Laoshi]

Funny thing about Karate and simultaneous kicking and punching.

Long time ago I took a Dillman seminar and he commented that NOBODY kicks and punches at the same time. The Karate BB all laughed at how silly it was to do something like that.

Wah Lum does that in one of the beginner sets (Little Open Gate). I was tempted to say something but didn't.

WL also does same side hand and kick attacks.

[count]

Originally posted by Judge Pen
I have three questions regarding kicking:

(1) how many kung fu styles include a side thrust kick (striking target is the heel of the foot and not the side edge of the foot)?
All of them.


(2) how many non-kung fu styles kick their hand with certain crecent and front kicks?This is the same question as 3. I don't know how many non-kung fu styles do this in their forms, but when you see this in a form, it represents hitting or opening up your opponent or just hiding his eyes from seeing your kick coming.


(3) How many non-kung fu styles use a hit-kick (puncing and kicking at the same time; usually opposite hand and foot)?
It is a popular saying in CMA that if you want to use the leg, first show the hand, if you want to use the hand, first use the leg. In other words, kicking your opponent in the shin will take his attention away from your intended hand technique. Or versa/vica, when your opponent rises his hands to block a punch in the face there will be an opening for your kick. People that don't understand this are weak fighters. That said, all the other styles I have seen have this, but sometimes it's not understood at first. Sometimes it's never understood. That goes for Chinese stylists too.

Hua Lin Laoshi, does your "little open gate" form translate as Shao Kai Men? That is the first form in our bagua system, but the gate might refer to something different than your opponents gates. It specifically refers to the "ming men". Small gate in the back.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by sean_stonehart

2) TKD that use pyang-ahn forms (#5), Shotokan Heian #5, Kanku-dai, I've seen it in Goju-ryu in one set


I forgot about that. In heian yondan, there is the sidekick/backfist. it's the same side hand and leg though, not opposite.

[sean_stonehart]

Originally posted by SevenStar
I forgot about that. In heian yondan, there is the sidekick/backfist. it's the same side hand and leg though, not opposite.

True true I'd forgot about that.

I was talking more about the inside crescent kick/hand slap. In #5 you do that R leg inside crescent kick/pivot 180 degrees to R elbow smash/backfist combo

Then there's that one kata in Shotokan & other like arts where you do a R leg inside crescent kick into a full spin down into a crouch on the floor. That always looked cool to me.

[Vash]

Originally posted by Judge Pen
I have three questions regarding kicking:

(1) how many kung fu styles include a side thrust kick (striking target is the heel of the foot and not the side edge of the foot)?

I ain't kung fu, but I practicemy side kick like this. However, I have my foot angled so it looks like kicking with the blade, but the striking surface is the heel. I tend to go into the ribgs or thigh with it.


(2) how many non-kung fu styles kick their hand with certain crecent and front kicks?

We do this in Kusanku. I tend to interpret this as grabbing the shirt and scissoring the legs.


(3) How many non-kung fu styles use a hit-kick (puncing and kicking at the same time; usually opposite hand and foot)?

We do, but not with opposite hand/foot. In Kusanku, tends to be on the same side.

[Vash]

Originally posted by sean_stonehart
Then there's that one kata in Shotokan & other like arts where you do a R leg inside crescent kick into a full spin down into a crouch on the floor. That always looked cool to me.

Kusanku, Kushankun, et al. I'm not sure of the Shotokan branches name for the set.

It's good for a takedown into an armbar.

[norther practitioner]

good research JP....

[Judge Pen]

I was wondering if I was taught to kick like a karate person, a TKD person, or a kung fu person. The way I described these kicks are the way I was first taught to kick 15 years ago.

I'm seeing some overlap into karate and TKD, but only in specific forms. These techniques are found throughout the basic material that I have.

[sean_stonehart]

Originally posted by Judge Pen
I was wondering if I was taught to kick like a karate person, a TKD person, or a kung fu person. The way I described these kicks are the way I was first taught to kick 15 years ago.

You've got a mix there young Padawan...


Originally posted by Judge Pen

I'm seeing some overlap into karate and TKD, but only in specific forms. These techniques are found throughout the basic material that I have.

Remember though that Japanese karate kicks with both the heel & the blade of the foot. Korean primarily uses the heel & most Okinawan I've seen prefers the blade.

[Vash]

Originally posted by sean_stonehart
Remember though that Japanese karate kicks with both the heel & the blade of the foot. Korean primarily uses the heel & most Okinawan I've seen prefers the blade.

From what I've been able to find, Okinawan kicks tend to turn the foot into a "bladed" position, but kick with the heal. The turning in of the foot facilitates a faster movement with side and forward-angled kicks.

[sean_stonehart]

Originally posted by Vash
From what I've been able to find, Okinawan kicks tend to turn the foot into a "bladed" position, but kick with the heal. The turning in of the foot facilitates a faster movement with side and forward-angled kicks.

I'll buy that. I've only seen Okinawan stuff... never played it much. Tried Isshinryu when I was 11 or 12... didn't like it compared to the TKD I was doing at the time.

I've got the video put out by Goju-ryu's Higaonna Sensei. He kicks like you described in a definate downward thrust/scrape motion.

[Vash]

That sounds like the "returning wave" kick. I like that for in-fighting.

Personally, i don't like any of the Isshinryu kicks to be done outside of arm's length. That way, i have some measure of control, safety.

[SifuAbel]

not exactly on topic I just thought I'd share.

kick2.mpg (http://home.earthlink.net/~sifuabel/kick2.mpg)

[Hua Lin Laoshi]

Since you're evaluating your SD kicks to see if they fit Karate or Kung Fu I'd like to ask a question. Does SD do any front kicks with the toes pulled back hitting with the ball of the foot?

That, to me, is distinctly Karate. From what I've seen Kung Fu always points the toe or pulls foot back and hits with heel.

[SifuAbel]

Hmmmm no, you are describing a snap kick with the ball of the foot which is common in kung fu especially in northern styles.

The toe pointed kicks are upward hitting, I.E. groin or lowered head . hitting with the instep(shoelace).

The snap kick is more of a forward thrust and the heel kick is a forward and upward angle strike.

[SevenStar]

yeah, what abel said.

[SifuAbel]

yeah, what sevenstar said, about me.

[Vash]

Toe kicks is the shiznat. I like aiming for the inner thigh, groin, and that space between the groin and the anus.

Wioth the toe kick, I mean.

[Judge Pen]

You all hit the nail on the head: I'm taught all three foot positions on front kicks depending on the target and the type of kick.

Round kicks are the same way, but I usually kick with the top part of my foot for the reach and because I train in shoes.

Abel, With your round kick being thrown rear-legged but with a chambered snap action what's the defense for the groin/center line counter during the kicking motion? Speed? Chambered knee block prior to the snap? Timing?

Another general question: Some styles, when throwing a front kick, chamber the kick, extend/snap/push out, and then re-chamber the kick either for another kick or for a step (like Abel does in his clip with the round-kick). Other styles, like the Pong Lai group or the form diagram that MK posted, extend/snap/push the kick out, and then let the leg step to the ground. The only kick I do this way is my front-thrust kick. Why the difference in stepping down vs. re-chambering?

[SifuAbel]

We use that kick front leg, back leg or sidestep. Either way its the setup that counts. In action I'm going to get you going before I throw that kick.

We don't like to leave the leg out. Its easier to balance and continue when you retrieve the leg quickly. leaving it out to the floor could literally place it in your opponwents hands.

[Judge Pen]

Originally posted by SifuAbel
We use that kick front leg, back leg or sidestep. Either way its the setup that counts. In action I'm going to get you going before I throw that kick.


We do too, but when I'm sparring a really good fighter I've been hit with a centerline attack before I could get the rear leg around. I suppose that means my method of opening the door wasn't good enough to throw that particular kick at that moment, but I usually find that kick harder to counter from a front leg. If it's thrown from a rear leg, then a MT type kick seems more effective, IMO.

[SifuAbel]

then you used it at the wrong time.


Like I said, I'm going to get you moving before I throw that hit, IE I'm going to use it as part of a greater strategy and not just by itself as a first technique.

Alot of people use the "horse mount" method for the round kick. bringing the knee around from the side.
Ideally, we don't bring that "around" we tuck tight in a forward position then with the pivot we fire.

It does tend to create a different feel.

My video is flawed that you can't see the knee lift with my back turned toward the camera, sorry.

[Judge Pen]

Yeah we bring the leg up and forward to a chambered position first too. I noticed that you turned your plant foot out before bringing you leg up. I think that I pivot my foot as my kick is extending.

But, I have horrible hip flexibility too so my round-kick isn't near as nice in form or power as yours.

[Hua Lin Laoshi]

Guess it's just me but I don't recall seeing any front snap kicks in any KF I've seen and it isn't in any KF set that I know.

I have seen it extensively in Karate.

Back in my Karate days we the roundhouse kick always came at the end of a series of attacks. Starting off with it usually hurts in the groin area.

And we always bring the foot back in for balance and to prevent opponent from grabbing it and taking out you standing leg.

[SifuAbel]

we do too. But the ground there was rocky and grassy so I had to adjust.

[SifuAbel]

its everwhere in northern sets.

[FatherDog]

Originally posted by Vash
Toe kicks is the shiznat. I like aiming for the inner thigh, groin, and that space between the groin and the anus.

Wioth the toe kick, I mean.

Taint kicker!

[PangQuan]

Originally posted by Hua Lin Laoshi
Guess it's just me but I don't recall seeing any front snap kicks in any KF I've seen and it isn't in any KF set that I know.

I have seen it extensively in Karate.

Back in my Karate days we the roundhouse kick always came at the end of a series of attacks. Starting off with it usually hurts in the groin area.

And we always bring the foot back in for balance and to prevent opponent from grabbing it and taking out you standing leg.

We do front snap kicks in (Minor) Hong, Shaolin. The kicking your hand represents grabbing someones head and smashing their jaw/face.

[Judge Pen]

Originally posted by PangQuan
We do front snap kicks in (Minor) Hong, Shaolin. The kicking your hand represents grabbing someones head and smashing their jaw/face.

I was working on a form last night that taught this very application.

[Hua Lin Laoshi]

You are all talking about pulling the toes back and hitting with the ball of the foot right?

I don't do that in the few Shaolin sets I have either. I haven't seen it in any Northern Mantis or Eagle Claw. Can someone point me to a video of a KF set with this kick?

Wah Lum does the head grab and kick too. All our toe kicks have toes pointed though.

[MasterKiller]

All of my kick are done with the toes flat making contact with top of the foot, or with the foot pulled back and making contact with the heel. I haven't seen a KF kick like that either...

It seems like something that would only matter if you were barefoot.

[Judge Pen]

Originally posted by MasterKiller
All of my kick are done with the toes flat making contact with top of the foot, or with the foot pulled back and making contact with the heel. I haven't seen a KF kick like that either...

It seems like something that would only matter if you were barefoot.

You are right. . . . it only matters if you are barefoot since the shoes provide stability and support to the toes. I wear shoes and either point my toes when I kick or kick with my heel. If I sparred barefoot, I would pull my toes back and hit with the ball as it's safer for the toes.

[Vash]

Originally posted by FatherDog
Taint kicker!

I've been called worse.

See, I have a tendency to step on the opponent's lead foot, then crescent step into their space.

As for delivery of a forward kick, I like this method: using 1/2 a crescent step (so the feet end up together) kick from that position. I like that the step takes on off-line, making it easier for a snap kick to land without fear of striking into the opponent's leg prematurely.

[Brad]

You are all talking about pulling the toes back and hitting with the ball of the foot right?
When I think of snap kick, I allways think of a shot to the groin with the toes down(hitting with top of the foot). Hitting with the ball of the foot like that, I allways heard it refered to as a front ball thrust kick or just front thrust kick if they didn't ever use the heel. I've never seen that technique in a kungfu form, though I've had a coach who adopted it from his previous tae kwon do training. He considered it more for pushing someone away, from what I remember. I have a hard time pulling my toes back in that manner though, so I never practiced it much :P

[MasterKiller]

Originally posted by wolfen
I was looking for similar diagrams of "tornadao kick" - not the crescent kick but the one done from the ground rising up twisting the legs pushing off the ground with the hands and the shoulders. We call that a Star Kick.

[Ming Yue]

JP has trained with us (Pong Lai) during a seminar last spring.

In some of our drills/forms, front kicks —either rising or push—drop straight down after full extension, heel first , to facilitate a transition. In fighting, we usually retract the kick.

[Judge Pen]

Originally posted by wolfen
Where do you get the info about the Pong Lai group about the kicking? Clip or post? Referring to front kick in a form or just general exercise?


Personal experience. I've worked out with them and observed their forms and Tan Tui. When they execute a front kick, they do not re-chamber the kick but bring the foot down to the ground in an advancing step. I'm not saying this is the wrong way to execute the kick, I see very good application in it, it's just not the way I was taught and I was weighing the various reasons for kicking this way.

[MasterKiller]

We don't re-chamber our kicks. We step into them.

[PangQuan]

With us it really depends on the situation, where your kicking your opponent, what type of kick, etc. We pretty much incorporate all of our traditional Wushu Kicks into our various forms. Not all in one form but they are all represented. Mainly with high energy gong fu you are going to be kicking rather hard, and if you can use lots of energy with your kicks you will break your toes, unless you specialize your toes for that method so in general on toe kicks we pull them back and use the ball of the foot. But again it depends on the situation and the attack spot. ie; under the chin I would use my toes, groin-toes, armpit-toes, innerthigh-toes, and so on. Chest and other hard areas we definately dont want to break our toes.

[PangQuan]

Originally posted by MasterKiller
We don't re-chamber our kicks. We step into them.

Same here, follow through with the momentum and perform another technique and or defensive manuver.

[SifuAbel]

Does that mean you kick and smear down on the opponent?

The "rechambering", as you call it, is just part of the whip. It happens in one flow not as a separate movement.

[norther practitioner]

It depends with us... We rechamber so our feet don't get caught among other reasons.

[mickey]

Greetings,

For me there are three basic classifications of kicks in Chinese martial arts: thrusting, snapping, and whipping.

mickey

[Hua Lin Laoshi]

That's why we rechamber. WL also has a few moves to use on the guys that don't rechamber.

[PangQuan]

I think what we do which you would call rechambering is following the momentum of a snap kick by pulling our leg back to ready while using the momentum from the movement to perform another move. keeping fluid. we just dont classify it as rechambering. ie; retreating, countering and or defending. Of course once again, with our style, it depends on the situation and opponents methods.

[Judge Pen]

The term "re-chambering" may be an issue of terminology. We pull the leg back to keep it from being caught, to cover and block a counter, to reap backward withthe momentum, to be able to throw a subsequent kick, or to transition to another technique. In my experience, to not do this will, more often than not, lead to the leg being caught or re-directed leading to an up-root of your opponent.

Not to say I always rechamber. I will often not with a front thrust kick and use the momentum to pull me inside their door so to speak.

[Ming Yue]

Originally posted by wolfen
Do you practice the exercise i mentioned?

Those drills must have specific application or specific to a form. I guess i'd jhave to see it. any particular name of a form?
..
You are just doing Taiji mantis? Your GM Shi Zhengzhong knows four major styles so maybe your material might be from any of it?

we have motions similar to "little tiger swallow" throughout our material. I like it in sparring as a good setup for a throw.

we use the heel set down in some of our Tan Tui sets, in an 8 step mantis form, some plum blossom material, in a form we have with an eagle claw flavor, many things...

Our material draws from the strengths of all 4 systems.

[Oso]

Originally posted by Ming Yue
we have motions similar to "little tiger swallow" throughout our material. I like it in sparring as a good setup for a throw.

we use the heel set down in some of our Tan Tui sets, in an 8 step mantis form, some plum blossom material, in a form we have with an eagle claw flavor, many things...

Our material draws from the strengths of all 4 systems.

nicely put.

[Fred Sanford]

When they execute a front kick, they do not re-chamber the kick but bring the foot down to the ground in an advancing step. I'm not saying this is the wrong way to execute the kick, I see very good application in it, it's just not the way I was taught and I was weighing the various reasons for kicking this way.

when they do that maybe they are using the kicks to enter. Just a crazy idea that came to me.

[Oso]

IMO, the answer to wether you retract the kick or extend and follow has to do with how your opponent responded.

Did you achieve your desired affect?

Did you connect and stun or off balance at the very least?

Did they evade/block/jam to the point where your plan is in shambles?

I've seen nothing unique in the kicking strategy of any style martial art I've come in contact with.

JP, it doesn't matter.

[Judge Pen]

Originally posted by Fred Sanford
when they do that maybe they are using the kicks to enter. Just a crazy idea that came to me.

Yep. As I previously posted:


Originally posted by Judge Pen

Not to say I always rechamber. I will often not with a front thrust kick and use the momentum to pull me inside their door so to speak.