"If a CMAist would train with the same intensity as a boxer..."

[HearWa]

The quote in the subject is something I've read often on message boards when a CMAist is defending his or her respective art when faced against other combat arts.

The usual argument is the CMAist didn't have the experience or physical conditioning necessary when beaten by another style. Now, this makes sense, but something in the aforementioned quote always leaves something little to be desired... how, exactly, can we as CMAists train with the same intensity as a boxer by using our own style?

Thank you.

[Shaolinlueb]

yes we can. since there is so much to tcma, you have to practice many things, not just do the drills of the set hands. boxing had a broad range of techniques and such, but tcma has a little more to it, and there fore there is less time to train things. and a lot of schools dont train fighters per say.

[PaiLumDreamer]

Out our school, we do a lot of conditioning training. Its a big thing for us...our instructors motto is "Conditioning, conditioning, conditioning."

Then again...we are a fighting school. I guess a lot of other tcma schools dont spar. I hear that a lot. =/

[SifuAbel]

you would get something like...............................me. :D

[Christopher M]

I don't think training like a boxer can make people gay.

[Shaolinlueb]

Originally posted by Christopher M
I don't think training like a boxer can make people gay.

LMAO that was some nice ownage of sifu abel

[Christopher M]

I'm seriously sorry. I tried to resist, I really did.

[SiuHung]

Originally posted by HearWa
The quote in the subject is something I've read often on message boards when a CMAist is defending his or her respective art when faced against other combat arts.

The usual argument is the CMAist didn't have the experience or physical conditioning necessary when beaten by another style. Now, this makes sense, but something in the aforementioned quote always leaves something little to be desired... how, exactly, can we as CMAists train with the same intensity as a boxer by using our own style?

Thank you.

Well it's easy...cut your training of forms down to a minimum and increase your conditioning, contact drilling and sparring, pad, bag, and footwork training to be the main focus of your training. You know...training like you're going to actually fight;)

[SifuAbel]

Originally posted by Christopher M
I don't think training like a boxer can make people gay.

Gay or not , I still rock. :rolleyes:

[SifuAbel]

Originally posted by SiuHung
Well it's easy...cut your training of forms down to a minimum and increase your conditioning, contact drilling and sparring, pad, bag, and footwork training to be the main focus of your training. You know...training like you're going to actually fight;)

If you can't count your form training in AS conditioning; then please, by all means, stop doing them. Weak forms don't help.

[SifuAbel]

Originally posted by Christopher M
I'm seriously sorry. I tried to resist, I really did.


There are medications for poor impulse control.

[David Jamieson]

Weak forms don't help.

Weak form doesn't help in boxing either.

Out of the thousands of people who train in boxing, how many get broken wrists from bag work? How many do it for recreation and how many do it as a competitive pursuit.

to think that one categorical form of training is sweepingly better than another categorical form of training will only impede the person who thinks that in their own training.

It will either fail to prepare them for the unexpected or help them to realize exactly what it takes to be in "top" form.

I would say that on any side of the dodecahedron of martial arts training, it is probaly the majority of practitioners who really aren't "top".

all things really are relative.

[Knifefighter]

If a CMAist would train with the same intensity as a boxer...

...he would look a lot like a boxer or kickboxer when he fought.

[FatherDog]

Originally posted by SifuAbel
Gay or not , I still rock. :rolleyes:

http://www.beautifulboxer.com

[Mo Lung]

Originally posted by Knifefighter
If a CMAist would train with the same intensity as a boxer...

...he would look a lot like a boxer or kickboxer when he fought. Bull. If you train your kung fu with the same intensity and intent as a boxer trains his boxing then you would look like a **** good kung fu fighter when you fought. If you expect that to look like a Jet Li movie, then get over it. Sounds like you have an issue there, bud.

[Knifefighter]

Originally posted by Mo Lung
Bull. If you train your kung fu with the same intensity and intent as a boxer trains his boxing then you would look like a **** good kung fu fighter when you fought. If you expect that to look like a Jet Li movie, then get over it. Sounds like you have an issue there, bud. Efficient and effective standup fighting with strikes against a skilled, resisting opponent looks like boxing and/or kickboxing. That's why they fight that way. Anyone who spars with intensity against skilled opponents finds this out pretty quickly. If you are fighting skilled opponents and doing well with your kung fu, it will look much like boxing or kickboxing.

[Mo Lung]

OK. You know best.

:rolleyes:

[Strangler]

Originally posted by SiuHung
Well it's easy...cut your training of forms down to a minimum and increase your conditioning, contact drilling and sparring, pad, bag, and footwork training to be the main focus of your training. You know...training like you're going to actually fight;)

pad work and heavy bags didn't exist in ancient China or even in Thailand not long ago. Doing that would turn kung fu into modern kickboxing. Why not train how the anient masters by suing nature and with other people by doing two mans ets, light bare knuckle sparring, push hands, tui shu, etc.? The anient masters of old didn't get those superhuman abilities by kicking ehavy bags and immitating modern thai boxers.

[Strangler]

Originally posted by Knifefighter
Efficient and effective standup fighting with strikes against a skilled, resisting opponent looks like boxing and/or kickboxing. That's why they fight that way. Anyone who spars with intensity against skilled opponents finds this out pretty quickly. If you are fighting skilled opponents and doing well with your kung fu, it will look much like boxing or kickboxing.

Everything looks the same to the untrained eye. In all seriousness the fight usually happens and ends so quick, not to mention the speed of the strikes that you would be hard pressed to see the difference unless the kung fu practitioner uses trademark moves such as double hand strikes, or bagua footwork or something.

[Mo Lung]

Originally posted by Strangler
pad work and heavy bags didn't exist in ancient China or even in Thailand not long ago. What makes you think that? A sah bao (sand bag) is one of the simplest training aids there is. Of course they were around.

[Strangler]

true, but they were trained differently than modern sanda/mt people use them. They were lighter and the person hitting them would mvoe around them and not just work on power but cordination, and rhythm. Not to mention they would often hit mroe than one bag at a time as in practising vs multiple opponents.

[Christopher M]

Originally posted by Strangler
pad work and heavy bags didn't exist in ancient China

I'm gonna have to voice disagreement with this as well. The traditional martial arts of China include many training methods using a wide variety of striking surfaces, including pads and bags. A good example would be the dog skin pads in piguazhang; another would be the sandbag training in Chen Zhaopei's taijiquan. When we include other types of tools playing the role of the punching bag, there are also, of course, many very famous examples of this sort of training, such as wing chun's wooden dummy, baguazhang pole training, and the many forms of iron hand and body conditioning.


true, but they were trained differently than modern sanda/mt people use them. They were lighter and the person hitting them would mvoe around them and not just work on power but cordination, and rhythm.

This statement is wrong from both sides. On one hand, there are plenty of examples of traditional chinese methods using stationary training for power generation and conditioning -- I mentioned some above. On the other hand, boxing and kickboxing training does include movement around the bag and training of coordination and rhythm.

[Strangler]

read these articles:

http://www.greatlakeswushu.com/baguaMag1.html

"He was a very good teacher and he helped me to udnerstand Xe's art. From him I learned alot of fine points, such as developing force by striking into empty space rather than striking objects."

http://www.bagua-zhang.info/

http://www.chinafrominside.com/ma/xyxy/sanquan.html

http://www.chi-arts.com/25years/articles.html

[SifuAbel]

LOL, fatherdawg

"Everything looks the same to the untrained eye."

That is very true. Somehow if a CMA guy used a standard punching combo he isn't using his art. Very typical. Very wrong. This has been said before. Jab-cross is COMMON.

"Why not train how the anient masters by suing nature and with other people by doing two mans ets, light bare knuckle sparring, push hands, tui shu, etc.?"

Sorry, but this is flat wrong. Objects were hit all the time. And they most likely didn't have padding or gloves. Objects were also used for timing and focus ala pads. You are talking about people that toughened themselves to the point of multilation.

BTW, you ever hit a full sandbag? They are NOT light. Even a sandbag that is the size of a watermelon is friggin hard and heavy.

We have a 200 pound corn bag in the main school. That sucker is like hitting a moving brick wall.

An old man once said something to me that is very true.

"The young think that the old were always old. That they were never young. That they didn't do what they now do or know what they now know. But for the most part, the truth is every age is same turn of the wheel. The next row of teeth in the sharks mouth. "

[Christopher M]

Originally posted by Strangler
read these articles

Me?

[SifuAbel]

You can't make sweeping statements about ALL kung fu styles and schools from the issue of ONE instructor or style. KUNG FU is not just Ba Gua.

[Strangler]

there is a difference between external and itnernal kung fu.

[Christopher M]

Originally posted by Strangler
there is a difference between external and itnernal kung fu.

What's your point?

[Strangler]

ima mostly train by hitting air and focusing on chi.

[SifuAbel]

So?

[Christopher M]

Originally posted by Strangler
ima mostly train by hitting air and focusing on chi.

No they don't. I've already referenced the sandbag training in taijiquan and the pole training in baguazhang. As for the unrelated point about qigong, external styles practice this as well -- for example, there are famous qigong sets from white crane as well as associated with the variety of Shaolin long fist traditions.

And even if this were right, your assertion that bag training doesn't exist in traditional chinese arts would still be false, since there are plenty of traditional chinese arts other than the internal ones.

[Strangler]

yea but the internal styles are always regarded as the best and most powerful, just read any biographies if internal masters or history of chiense tournaments where the internal stylists generally won.

[Strangler]

I already provided links of standard ima curriculum. I think hitting poles and bags was the exception not the rule.

[Christopher M]

Originally posted by Strangler
yea but the internal styles are always regarded as the best and most powerful

Even if this is true, your assertion that bag striking methods don't exist in the traditional chinese martial arts is still wrong.


I already provided links of standard ima curriculum.

No you didn't, which isn't surprising, since there's no such thing as the "standard ima curriculum" -- there are multiple IMAs, each have distinct curricula, and there are multiple styles within each of the IMAs, which again each have distinct curricula.

[scotty1]

"ima mostly train by hitting air and focusing on chi."

Sorry, that's just wrong.

Knifefighter - you're wrong as well. Tai chi (for example) includes striking as well as stand-up grappling. So it's not going to end up looking like boxing or kickboxing is it?

[SiuHung]

Originally posted by SifuAbel
If you can't count your form training in AS conditioning; then please, by all means, stop doing them. Weak forms don't help.

Lol
Thanks for the tip:rolleyes:

What I tried to communicate (inneffectively), is that instead of forms being the primary method of training (as is is many, many Kung fu schools) ,to place more emphaisis on conditioning, drilling, and sparring. The weak thing you added yourself.

But of course if all you've learned is forms...

[Water Dragon]

Originally posted by Knifefighter
Efficient and effective standup fighting with strikes against a skilled, resisting opponent looks like boxing and/or kickboxing. That's why they fight that way. Anyone who spars with intensity against skilled opponents finds this out pretty quickly. If you are fighting skilled opponents and doing well with your kung fu, it will look much like boxing or kickboxing.

Yes and No

[Mutant]

I believe it would look a lot like ..... d r u m r o l l ...... San Da.

If not geared towards the ring, would probably still be a lot like Chinese Military San Da with slight variations for different styles, as well as more open handed techniques, elbows, chin na, etc.

Why don't you just try to train your CMA 'with the same intensity as a boxer' and find out? Then you could tell us your personal results.

[Knifefighter]

Originally posted by Strangler
The anient masters of old didn't get those superhuman abilities by kicking ehavy bags and immitating modern thai boxers. The ancient "masters" weren't superhuman. They most likely weren't even as good as today's modern fighters.

[David Jamieson]

They most likely weren't even as good as today's modern fighters.

In a lot of ways I agree with this. There are progressively tougher and better skilled fighters as time marches on.

Also keep in mind that many "art" type martial arts are in many ways highly ritualistic and have less to do with fighting than with outrward expression of an idea or a story or many sundry other concepts.

Not that they aren't good for a body and not that it is likely that in the past as it is today there were dang good fighters who could mop the floor with most who stood against them.

But if we look back even at some old american or british boxing films from the early 1900's say, well, their form and style would be laughable today.

I have seen a few crackled films with such display and it was quite funny to watch in many senses. The toughest men of the day would be regarded as a joke these days and would pizzizzle themselves if faced with an Ali, a Lewis, a Tyson or even a Klitschko.

[Ray Pina]

so parden me if this was said:

The majority of CMA schools don't train fighters properly because they do not attract students with that mind set. What I mean by that is think of what you would walk in on if you entered the typical Kung Fu school at 8:30 p.m. .... maybe students are dressed in Kung FU garb holding horse stance, maybe they are doing forms, and, if you're lucky, they are doing some very low-intensity, highly co-operative line drills that are complex and awkward.

Now, walk into a boxing gym at 8:30 p.m.. You probbaly have guys working a heavy bag with a trainer spotting, maybe some guys are in the ring sparring with headgear, other guys are hitting the speed bag ..... these guys are prepairing for battle.

Now, these are two stereotypes but mostly true to the typical school/gym. Take a kid from the boxing gym and put him in the kung fu class and he'll be bored most likely. Take a kid from the kung fu school and he may work the pads but may be scared to get into the ring.... or say his stuff is too dangerous but I think these are the same thing in most cases.

I know in NY though there are several Chinese Art-based schools that have broken this stereotype. For example, boxing gloves, headgear, chest protector, elbow pads, chin guards and cup .... these are standard gear and we'll use some or all of these in every single class. We do no form. We've had plenty of black belts come from other schools, train for a day or two and never come back. They'd rather be a big fish in a make believe pond that put up what they have or think they have or were lead to believe what they have.

I respect the boxer: jab, cross, hook, uppercut. So little yet so much.

Then you have 25 forms, 15 weapons, Iron Palm, titanium d!ck, sand foot, etc, etc., etc. and nobody wants to fight.

That's why I don't blame the teachers. I blame the students. You see what the hell you're getting yourself into. everyone is so smart 22 hours out of the day, then they go to a kwoon or dojo and lose all sense of reality and believe the craziest things, except fiction without demanding so proof or experiencing for themselves first hand.

This is a great field we are involved in. It requires no back and forth and lenghtly discourse: put the gloves on and show me.

[HearWa]

Originally posted by MutantWarrior
I believe it would look a lot like ..... d r u m r o l l ...... San Da.

If not geared towards the ring, would probably still be a lot like Chinese Military San Da with slight variations for different styles, as well as more open handed techniques, elbows, chin na, etc.

Why don't you just try to train your CMA 'with the same intensity as a boxer' and find out? Then you could tell us your personal results. I can't if I don't know how. I started this thread to see how others "train with the same intensity as a boxer," and apparently nobody knows how. The most I've gotten so far is the masters sucked. Saying this is a mixed message would be an understatement.

Sifu Abel, how do you train that makes you so good? Thank you.

[HearWa]

Origionally posted by EvolutionFist
We do no form.Then how can you possibly call it a Chinese martial art? It sounds like imitation kickboxing to me.

I've put five years of hard work into the chinese martial arts and I've about had it. I'm not getting any younger.

[David Jamieson]

Hear wa-

this is how Holyfield trains

http://www.sportsci.org/news/news9709/hatfield.html

His methodology is not starkly different from many other professional boxers methods.

Some stuff is diff some is not, but all of us have different attributes and such. the Holyfield prgram is designed specifically for his attributes.

[Water Dragon]

Originally posted by HearWa
I can't if I don't know how. I started this thread to see how others "train with the same intensity as a boxer," and apparently nobody knows how.

Well, here’s how I ran my Shuai Chiao class when I had a class to run. Now I just train.

Warm Up: 100 jumping jacks, 100 squats, 60 lunges, 25 push ups, 100 crunches, 100 bicycles, 100 bowling balls, 25 push ups, 100 crunches, 100 flutter kicks.

Belt Cracking: 100 side to side, 50 bottom/top raise, 50 bowing, 50 turning bow.

Forms were done next in 2 minute drills. Usually we’d run through, D. Cut, Forward March, Bowing, Neck Surround.

Next, we would train technique, usually focusing in one or two technique/combos per class for about 30 minutes.

Then we would run drills for about a half hour in 2-3 minute rounds: pummeling, swimming, sweeping drills, jacket wrestling, “ning” drills, etc.

Class would usually end wit free wrestling. We’d go for about 5 3 minute rounds.

Cool down with stance work held 1 minute each to stretch out. The class usually ran for about 2 ½ hours

[red5angel]

What is a Belt Crack?

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Strangler
pad work and heavy bags didn't exist in ancient China or even in Thailand not long ago. Doing that would turn kung fu into modern kickboxing. Why not train how the anient masters by suing nature and with other people by doing two mans ets, light bare knuckle sparring, push hands, tui shu, etc.? The anient masters of old didn't get those superhuman abilities by kicking ehavy bags and immitating modern thai boxers.


This is the big problem people are facing today...everyone wants to "train how the masters trained".... 150 years ago, under different circumstances and with different intents, more primitive knowliedge of training, etc. I dunno if it's a nostalgia thing or what - trying to imitate "masters".

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by red5angel
What is a Belt Crack?

it's a shuai chiao thang.

[red5angel]

and.....

[HearWa]

Originally posted by SevenStar
it's a shuai chiao thang. Did you mean thong?:confused:

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Strangler
true, but they were trained differently than modern sanda/mt people use them. They were lighter and the person hitting them would mvoe around them and not just work on power but cordination, and rhythm. Not to mention they would often hit mroe than one bag at a time as in practising vs multiple opponents.

thai boxers don't move around the bag? they just stand there and pound away? It sounds like someone on this thread is missing a few clues...

[Ray Pina]

Why do you say that I can't be doing CMA because I don't do form?

I studied karate for something like 10 to 12 years, the training was mixed equally with sparring, bag work and form. I learned a lot but was young.

I studied Hung Gar and Wing Chun and we mostly did form and some chi sau .... no sparring.

Then I studied S Mantis and all we did was chi sau and heavy sparring .... learned how to judge a technique, learned what fighting means.

Now I study Hsing-I and Ba Gua but I'm really interested in E-Chuan. Some classes we'll do one specific section of a form to do internal training, but only do it for like 20 or 30 minutes .... this should be done at home a lone.

Most nights we work on a specific concept, say Hsing-I's wood element. We put the gloves on and drill it. You work up to the intensity that you and your partnet are comfortable with.

For me, this is better than going back and forth across the room doing an emty Hsing-I form. Though, once you have done it for real, against a resisting person, then maybe you can go back and work on some mechanics solo. But the majority of CMA people I know are form collectors. Quite frankly, they're all pu$$ies.

In the end I don't care what it's called or what it looks like (I think I can easily be mistaken for a boxer and am proud of that .... though curious to see how the next fight looks on film, there's ben some changes in me). I get bored talking about it. I'd rather just have a go at it, but at that point 3/4 of ALL martial artist drop out of the conversation or bring up inner peace.

[HearWa]

Originally posted by Water Dragon
Well, here’s how I ran my Shuai Chiao class when I had a class to run. Now I just train.

Warm Up: 100 jumping jacks, 100 squats, 60 lunges, 25 push ups, 100 crunches, 100 bicycles, 100 bowling balls, 25 push ups, 100 crunches, 100 flutter kicks.

Belt Cracking: 100 side to side, 50 bottom/top raise, 50 bowing, 50 turning bow.

Forms were done next in 2 minute drills. Usually we’d run through, D. Cut, Forward March, Bowing, Neck Surround.

Next, we would train technique, usually focusing in one or two technique/combos per class for about 30 minutes.

Then we would run drills for about a half hour in 2-3 minute rounds: pummeling, swimming, sweeping drills, jacket wrestling, “ning” drills, etc.

Class would usually end wit free wrestling. We’d go for about 5 3 minute rounds.

Cool down with stance work held 1 minute each to stretch out. The class usually ran for about 2 ½ hours Now, really, are the forms an indespensible part of that schedule? It seems like they're thrown in there to keep it at least remotely simular to CMA.

And as far as the form interpretations go, couldn't you save the time from learning the form, studying the underlying concepts and techniques by joining a martial art without forms that all ready have the techniques readily available?

[red5angel]

But the majority of CMA people I know are form collectors. Quite frankly, they're all pu$$ies.

so your teacher is a *****, and your classmates are pussies and all the CMA people you have ever met are pussies? Interesting....

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by HearWa
Then how can you possibly call it a Chinese martial art? It sounds like imitation kickboxing to me.

I've put five years of hard work into the chinese martial arts and I've about had it. I'm not getting any younger.

Who says that cma MUST include typical forms work?

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by HearWa
Now, really, are the forms an indespensible part of that schedule? It seems like they're thrown in there to keep it at least remotely simular to CMA.

And as far as the form interpretations go, couldn't you save the time from learning the form, studying the underlying concepts and techniques by joining a martial art without forms that all ready have the techniques readily available?

in shuai chiao, the techniques ARE readily available through forms. They don't do the long, multi technique forms. SC forms are single technique drills.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by red5angel
What is a Belt Crack?

A way to train grip breaking, coordination, speed, proper position... belt cracking is a training tool used to help you perfect your movements, in a nutshell.

[MasterKiller]

Ziramen Quan has NO forms. I'm pretty sure Yi Quan has no forms.

Are they not CMA?

[HearWa]

Originally posted by SevenStar
Who says that cma MUST include typical forms work? I have no idea, I guess it was an assumption based on the evidence of every single Kung Fu school I personally have run into. Go figure.

[MonkeySlap Too]

This is a 'been there, done that' topic. Yeesh.

[David Jamieson]

I've learned quite a few forms over the years. But like most cma-ists I know personally, I've narrowed it down to actually continuing to work with only a few and just running through the rest to keep them in memory. Some I've abandoned entirely in all honesty and frankly can't remember them anymore.

The ones I keep and play regularly are the ones that I personally feel serve me best and interest me most. As well as maintain and grow attributes I struggle with and am good at.

Although I box, do bag work, do cardio heavy stuff and hard conditioning and enduance exercise as well I still would call myself a cma-ist

[HearWa]

Ok, let's change it to the origional stated topic then.

Got anything useful to say? I don't, that's why I asked the question! :D

[Strangler]

Originally posted by Knifefighter
The ancient "masters" weren't superhuman. They most likely weren't even as good as today's modern fighters.

Have you ever read their biographies? Or just go to any ima message board and try discounting them lol, youll get flamed. Seriously though their biographies aren't that old as people like sun lutang lived in the last 100-75 years or so and there were many witnesses to his feats. Keep in mind the narrative (because msot of these encounters were not caught on film) often says exactly what happened form tehcnique to tehcnique, and many of these matches were over very quickly, same cannot be said for most of today's fighters.


But if we look back even at some old american or british boxing films from the early 1900's say, well, their form and style would be laughable today.

I made this exact point on emptyflower once and was laughed at simply because you don't know if the anicent boxers were less skilled than todays fighters. The ancient boxers had a different stance and ways of punching but that was more efective for bare knuckle fighting as they never messed up their knuckles (or at least as often) and you don't have film clips of the fighters before the glove era anyway. So you never know. Many of those guys won within seconds so they could have easily been better. Also keep in mind modern boxers often use steroids or growth hormones to cheat their performance. That's the primary reason today's athletes surpass athletes of the past in scores such as Olympic runs, etc.

[Water Dragon]

Originally posted by HearWa
Now, really, are the forms an indespensible part of that schedule? It seems like they're thrown in there to keep it at least remotely simular to CMA.

And as far as the form interpretations go, couldn't you save the time from learning the form, studying the underlying concepts and techniques by joining a martial art without forms that all ready have the techniques readily available?

As has been said, the forms are one or two movements ran repeatedly in a line.

Nothing is "indespensible" but the forms provide good training. They develop good structure and foot work as well as a good cardio workout. Do a form for 2 minutes with me and you'll be glad we didn't do it for 3. Some of the forms, like bowing, also provide an intense plyometric workout. We would also run shots (single legs) as a form up and down the gym for 2 minutes. Same concept.

[David Jamieson]

cushing fight from 1894

video here
http://www.open-video.org/details.php?videoid=4670

enjoy the insanity that was old skoolzor! :p

there's a couple of more bouts there and some funny stuff too, like a bag workin dog!

[Strangler]

Originally posted by Kung Lek
cushing fight from 1894

video here
http://www.open-video.org/details.php?videoid=4670

enjoy the insanity that was old skoolzor! :p

there's a couple of more bouts there and some funny stuff too, like a bag workin dog!

keep in mind that still was after the bare knuckle era and the eras where wrestling was allowed and many less rules or restrictions occured. WHen wrestling was allowed it changed the strike game since the fighters had to keep distance form another. Hence why in the ufc modern boxers got whopped on (by even a ninja if I rememebr correctly). That's the reason for their weird stance is to prevent grappling. Just watch many modern mma guys they often hit unorthodox with long haymakers or drop their head while their right goes over the other guy's arms. It's not pretty but works in this type of setting. Even the ufc heavyweight champ (forgot his name) but I watched a fight of his yesturday iobn tv and he had an unorthodox and weird stance. Just look at the other clip I posted of the small vs big guy, does the small guy look like modern boxing to you?

[SiuHung]

Originally posted by Strangler
keep in mind that still was after the bare knuckle era and the eras where wrestling was allowed and many less rules or restrictions occured. WHen wrestling was allowed it changed the strike game since the fighters had to keep distance form another. Hence why in the ufc modern boxers got whopped on (by even a ninja if I rememebr correctly). That's the reason for their weird stance is to prevent grappling. Just watch many modern mma guys they often hit unorthodox with long haymakers or drop their head while their right goes over the other guy's arms. It's not pretty but works in this type of setting. Even the ufc heavyweight champ (forgot his name) but I watched a fight of his yesturday iobn tv and he had an unorthodox and weird stance. Just look at the other clip I posted of the small vs big guy, does the small guy look like modern boxing to you?

LOL

I looked like Southern Long Hand technique to me...Maybe not textbook perfect, but the way he came in swinging reminded me of a big sau choi.

[SifuAbel]

One point in contrast with that old clip was the intent of the tactics. Modern boxing is more "hunt and peck". These guys were throwing nothing but head crushers.

[David Jamieson]

These guys were throwing nothing but head crushers.

yep. and their shorts were mighty ghey.lol

[SifuAbel]

thstop it. Those short did ride a little too high.
No shorter than wwe, however.

[Mo Lung]

I think it's actually a little generous to even call those shorts. Over here we refer to those as "budgie smugglers". ;)

[Strangler]

to those who haven't seen this fight:
http://globalsportsent.com/RCvideo/McCalop-Lee-1.wmv

notice how the small guy throws long strikes resembling haymakers or other things unorthodox to modern boxing. Also watch chuck lidell fights.

[Mutant]

Originally posted by HearWa
Ok, let's change it to the origional stated topic then.

Got anything useful to say? I don't, that's why I asked the question! :D

Okay. Well i don't know if this would be considered useful to you or not but i'll take a stab at it...

Seeing that you want to train your particular CMA with the intensity of a boxer, what you need to understand is the methodology and mindset. You'll need to research what it takes to train like this, and a lot of this is available info on the web. Look for training blogs of professional fighters adn see what their training regimines are, see what their livestyles are like, as this type of training intensity affects your diet, sleeping, lifestyle... and then start to model your own training based on what these guys do.

Go to ringside.com and get some basic boxing training videos from john brown or mma training from chuck liddle, even if you don't copy them exactly, you can use the methodology to train your own, & some of these videos are real cheap. Also get some quality training gear (boxing, san da or thai style pads, headgear, gloves, wraps, cup, mouthpiece, shin-guards, bags, etc.) as you'll need this to train consistently with the proper intensity w/o getting constantly sidelined with injuries. Resist the common CMA inclination to obsess over antiquated training methods and gear, mixing some of the old stuff in might be okay, but to train like a modern full contact fighter you will need to esckew that anachronistic mentality and take full advantage of modern technology and methods, this will enable you to 'train with the intensity of a boxer'. I'm sure you could train real hard the old way too, but unless you want to live like a monk of old, the new technology will allow you to train hard and smart and still have a life, and in the end the modern training will probably win anyway, and the real fighters of old were not fools, they would have jumped at the opportunity to use good modern gear.

If you have a chance to take boxing classes or MMA classes jump at the opportunity, as this can teach you the training methodology which you could then use to train your own CMA material. Don't worry about if not being real CMA anymore because youre not doing your stereotypical form-intensive kung fooey reutines, as the core of the systems are not in the 'fluff' anyway and you owe nothing to this stuff, find the core techniques, the basics, the methods of power generation, and break them down to the elements and then train these pieces in the way that a boxing coach would make yuo train this, with the same intensity and focus.

Maybe you should get sifu Ross's new San Da training video to see how a modern san da school trains traditional CMA techiques in a way that can compete with modern fighters from other styles like boxing and mauy thai (i havent seen this but it might answer some of your questions and give an idea of how you could achieve what youre looking for).

Lastly, training like this is a lot of hard work, it strains and hurts you and pushes you beyond how you would rationally push yourself. This is one big reason many practitioners don't train like this, they'd rather focus on dressing up and playing games, doing the relatively easy forms, not having to go anaerobic or having muscles constantly broken down and rehealing and acheing, getting your nose broken or knocked out. But this is real fight training; prancing around in silk pajamas worrying about whether you did the salutation correct is not.
Get a coach if you can, otherwise its difficult to consistently push yourself like you'll need to. Also, while not a nessesity to get into 'boxer' shape, training for competition definately helps keep you focused and can provide the resisting opponent everyone spends so much time theorizing about but seldom faces. Once you get a reutine down and start to feel like youre getting somewhere, get yourself matched up for a ring fight to really push yourself and focus your training, then compete, and adjust your training based on the results, a perfect feedback loop. Don't worry about it 'corrupting' your CMA style, it won't, and will ultimately help in the long run.

Remember, we're not beholden to some ancient style, as so many become a prisoner of it, but use it and make it work for you, with the best technology and training methods available!

Hope this helps, good luck.

[Water Dragon]

Best Post Eva

[SifuAbel]

Originally posted by HearWa
If a CMAist would train with the same intensity as a boxer...

What do you mean "if".

[SifuAbel]

Originally posted by Strangler
to those who haven't seen this fight:
http://globalsportsent.com/RCvideo/McCalop-Lee-1.wmv

notice how the small guy throws long strikes resembling haymakers or other things unorthodox to modern boxing. Also watch chuck lidell fights.

So tiny, is this the "toy' group? LOL! Nice intensity, those jack russel terriers are feisty.

[HearWa]

Originally posted by MutantWarrior
Okay. Well i don't know if this would be considered useful to you or not but i'll take a stab at it...

Seeing that you want to train your particular CMA with the intensity of a boxer, what you need to understand is the methodology and mindset. You'll need to research what it takes to train like this, and a lot of this is available info on the web. Look for training blogs of professional fighters adn see what their training regimines are, see what their livestyles are like, as this type of training intensity affects your diet, sleeping, lifestyle... and then start to model your own training based on what these guys do.

Go to ringside.com and get some basic boxing training videos from john brown or mma training from chuck liddle, even if you don't copy them exactly, you can use the methodology to train your own, & some of these videos are real cheap. Also get some quality training gear (boxing, san da or thai style pads, headgear, gloves, wraps, cup, mouthpiece, shin-guards, bags, etc.) as you'll need this to train consistently with the proper intensity w/o getting constantly sidelined with injuries. Resist the common CMA inclination to obsess over antiquated training methods and gear, mixing some of the old stuff in might be okay, but to train like a modern full contact fighter you will need to esckew that anachronistic mentality and take full advantage of modern technology and methods, this will enable you to 'train with the intensity of a boxer'. I'm sure you could train real hard the old way too, but unless you want to live like a monk of old, the new technology will allow you to train hard and smart and still have a life, and in the end the modern training will probably win anyway, and the real fighters of old were not fools, they would have jumped at the opportunity to use good modern gear.

If you have a chance to take boxing classes or MMA classes jump at the opportunity, as this can teach you the training methodology which you could then use to train your own CMA material. Don't worry about if not being real CMA anymore because youre not doing your stereotypical form-intensive kung fooey reutines, as the core of the systems are not in the 'fluff' anyway and you owe nothing to this stuff, find the core techniques, the basics, the methods of power generation, and break them down to the elements and then train these pieces in the way that a boxing coach would make yuo train this, with the same intensity and focus.

Maybe you should get sifu Ross's new San Da training video to see how a modern san da school trains traditional CMA techiques in a way that can compete with modern fighters from other styles like boxing and mauy thai (i havent seen this but it might answer some of your questions and give an idea of how you could achieve what youre looking for).

Lastly, training like this is a lot of hard work, it strains and hurts you and pushes you beyond how you would rationally push yourself. This is one big reason many practitioners don't train like this, they'd rather focus on dressing up and playing games, doing the relatively easy forms, not having to go anaerobic or having muscles constantly broken down and rehealing and acheing, getting your nose broken or knocked out. But this is real fight training; prancing around in silk pajamas worrying about whether you did the salutation correct is not.
Get a coach if you can, otherwise its difficult to consistently push yourself like you'll need to. Also, while not a nessesity to get into 'boxer' shape, training for competition definately helps keep you focused and can provide the resisting opponent everyone spends so much time theorizing about but seldom faces. Once you get a reutine down and start to feel like youre getting somewhere, get yourself matched up for a ring fight to really push yourself and focus your training, then compete, and adjust your training based on the results, a perfect feedback loop. Don't worry about it 'corrupting' your CMA style, it won't, and will ultimately help in the long run.

Remember, we're not beholden to some ancient style, as so many become a prisoner of it, but use it and make it work for you, with the best technology and training methods available!

Hope this helps, good luck.
Great post! :D

To be truthful, I've been really pushing myself for awhile. I've been running sprints, lifting weights, working the heavy bag & speed bag, shadow boxing, skipping and even running (I hate running, mostly because I suck at it. :D). I guess I'm just frustrated because there's NOTHING around this hell hole except for Kung Fu... I'm stuck in hickville, New Brunswick where nobody wants to train like I do. I've heard there's some people in fredericton who do, but that's not doing me any good! ;)

And since I have nobody around who wants to train like I do, my options are pretty limited. I'm in decent shape (all though I haven't trained hard in a week... I'm trying to organize a little club around here for people who want to train in martial arts), but I don't get the sparring experience/pad work that many are fortunate to have. I spar a bit in class, but that's about once a month, and no-contact at that.

I suppose I just feel limited right now. But when I get a few people ready to train, your post should come in handy! Thanks!

[Strangler]

most of your training like conditioning and strengh training shoudl come on your ownf ree personal time anyway. As for heavy bag work, yes it can hel out your game but power isn't that important in my opinion. Speed, accuracy, reflexes (being able to deflect or move out of the way of punches), timing, etc. are more important. It doesn't take a super punch to hurt another guy and make him think twice about fighting you. And in my opinion hitting pads is inferior to sparring, why not spar instead?

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Strangler
most of your training like conditioning and strengh training shoudl come on your ownf ree personal time anyway.

IMO, no it shouldn't - not conditioning, anyway. It should be integrated into your training. you can condition and learn at the same time. bag work, pad drills, etc.


As for heavy bag work, yes it can hel out your game but power isn't that important in my opinion. Speed, accuracy, reflexes (being able to deflect or move out of the way of punches), timing, etc. are more important.


not really... How fast can you possibly get? can you be so fast that NOBODY will EVER be able to hit you? Or, can you ALWAYS hit someone AND knock them out before they touch you? If not, then speed isn't a whole lot more important. Humans can only move so fast, consequently, even a person slower than you will not be THAT much slower. put a little guy like de la hoya against a bigger guy, like tyson and you'll see what I mean. He's quick, but not so quick that tyson can't touch him. and since tyson does have the super punch, it's advantage tyson.


It doesn't take a super punch to hurt another guy and make him think twice about fighting you.

Depends on who you are hitting and where you hit them. For example, I've got a huge tolerance for leg kicks. It's difficult to hurt me with them. Some people have an extremely strong chin - have you seen cabbage fight? his chin is insane. Power counts for alot. speed counts for something too. It's about balance.



And in my opinion hitting pads is inferior to sparring, why not spar instead?

because they are two different drills used for two different things. Neither is inferior to the other, unless you are trying to use them for a purpose other than the intended one.

[Mutant]

Originally posted by Strangler
most of your training like conditioning and strengh training shoudl come on your ownf ree personal time anyway. As for heavy bag work, yes it can hel out your game but power isn't that important in my opinion. Speed, accuracy, reflexes (being able to deflect or move out of the way of punches), timing, etc. are more important. It doesn't take a super punch to hurt another guy and make him think twice about fighting you. And in my opinion hitting pads is inferior to sparring, why not spar instead?

While this might be great for you, its not going to help him 'train CMA with the intensity of a boxer' like he asked about any more than he's already doing. He would be missing a big and important part of the training equation if he did as you perscribe.

[Ray Pina]

"so your teacher is a *****, and your classmates are pussies and all the CMA people you have ever met are pussies? Interesting...." -- red sand

My teacher would beat you and me together, he's not a pu$$y. I don't consider myself a pu$$y though certainly more of my classmates throughtout my entire life were what I'd consider pu$$ies than not.

What do I consider a pu$$y? Someone who studies a fighting art but is too scared to do it for real. I hear all excuses. But when I was a kid a couple joined our karate school and they were 60. They were sparring within a year and they're still alive and training and black belts today. I've trained with people who were sick (still fought), missing fingers (still fought), had good jobs or bad jobs (still fought).

So today, when I hear 'I can't because I can't go to work with a black eye", or "I'm just not interested." Well, if you're not interested in fighting, what the hell you joining MA class for?

That's like buying a fishing pole and only casting onto the grass because you don't want to hurt fish. It's made to catch fish. Martial arts are made for self defense .... its in the calm and self awerness and self confidence that one can grow and get the other benefits.

[Mutant]

Originally posted by HearWa
Great post! :D
.......
I suppose I just feel limited right now. But when I get a few people ready to train, your post should come in handy! Thanks!

You Betcha! :D

[Strangler]

IMO, no it shouldn't - not conditioning, anyway. It should be integrated into your training. you can condition and learn at the same time. bag work, pad drills, etc.

Conditioning can be done on your own free time. WHy waste class time conditioning when you can practise techniques, two mand rills, sparring, etc. Things that you can't do alone or at home? Anybody can get conditioning running, or doing various excersises like push ups at home.


not really... How fast can you possibly get? can you be so fast that NOBODY will EVER be able to hit you? Or, can you ALWAYS hit someone AND knock them out before they touch you? If not, then speed isn't a whole lot more important. Humans can only move so fast, consequently, even a person slower than you will not be THAT much slower. put a little guy like de la hoya against a bigger guy, like tyson and you'll see what I mean. He's quick, but not so quick that tyson can't touch him. and since tyson does have the super punch, it's advantage tyson.

Strengh and power declines with age that's the reason ima and tai chi in particular says "use no strengh" deflext a thousand pounds with 5 ounces, etc. Once you reach a certain age you can't compete in strengh with others. ALso some people are physically more gifted than you and no matter how much strengh and pwoer you practise there will always be somebody stronger than you and somebody bigger than you and somebody meaner than you and somebody that hits harder than you. It is through skill you can beat them. You can see many examples of this in mma, just look at Royce Gracie.

[David Jamieson]

um.

I think the point needs to be made that regarding class time, your garden variety beginner doesn't know what conditioning drills to do or how to do them.

So, class time is where they learn it.

When a person advances in a given skill set and can actually absorb some learning in regards to usage of the skill set, then I agree, your class time is best spent drilling, sparring and possibly other things depending on what's available at your club that you don't have at home and so on.

Form is only a method that creates muscle memory for use in application of the technique. Sort of like the -plane- that drops the bomb.

As a for instance, the technique is shown, the technique is mimiced, the correction is made, the technique is repeated. Next step, use the technique on a surface, like a heavy bag, a wooden man, or other devices designed for force feedback.

Now you need to do it while moving about. So footwork facilitates the use of the technique while in motion. Then after you learn the appropriate structure and footwork to use the techs this way, both defensively and offensively in the next step which is contact drills and finally open sparring.

Point being, this progression is what your 'class time' is for. Of course you are expected to practice on your own time.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Strangler
Conditioning can be done on your own free time. WHy waste class time conditioning when you can practise techniques, two mand rills, sparring, etc. Things that you can't do alone or at home? Anybody can get conditioning running, or doing various excersises like push ups at home.

it's not a waste when done in conjunction with training. notice I didn't mention running or pushups. However, those are fine and should be done as well. We do calisthenics in class. We also condition via the methods mentioned in my above post. I think your problem is your perception of what constitutes conditioning.




Strengh and power declines with age

newsflash - speed does too.


that's the reason ima and tai chi in particular says "use no strengh" deflext a thousand pounds with 5 ounces, etc. Once you reach a certain age you can't compete in strengh with others.

Those are qualities ingerent in ALL martial arts... train long enough and properly, and you will learn them. you will have to use strength though to some extent. what they are saying is not to meet force with force. yielding is used in thai boxing - it's not unique to taiji.


ALso some people are physically more gifted than you and no matter how much strengh and pwoer you practise there will always be somebody stronger than you and somebody bigger than you and somebody meaner than you and somebody that hits harder than you. It is through skill you can beat them.

chances are, there is always somebody more skilled than you as well. you really aren't making a relevant point here.

You can see many examples of this in mma, just look at Royce Gracie.

he's great. I've met him several times. Now, take royce's skill, pit him against someone with the exact same skill level and is stronger than he is...

[Mutant]

Originally posted by Strangler
Conditioning can be done on your own free time. WHy waste class time conditioning when you can practise techniques, two mand rills, sparring, etc. Things that you can't do alone or at home? Anybody can get conditioning running, or doing various excersises like push ups at home.

Strengh and power declines with age that's the reason ima and tai chi in particular says "use no strengh" deflext a thousand pounds with 5 ounces, etc. Once you reach a certain age you can't compete in strengh with others. ALso some people are physically more gifted than you and no matter how much strengh and pwoer you practise there will always be somebody stronger than you and somebody bigger than you and somebody meaner than you and somebody that hits harder than you. It is through skill you can beat them. You can see many examples of this in mma, just look at Royce Gracie.

This is the 'traditional' mindset that keeps most CMA people from being much of a factor in modern fighting. There is nothing really wrong with these ways if you take the end result for what it is, but don't get this antiquated idealogy confused with real, relevant 21st century fight training.

As far as what youre saying about 'this can be done at home', this indicates that you really don't understand modern training methods and that someone foolish enough to take your advice would get destroyed in the ring by a well trained fighter, as we've seen over and over 1st hand... and then you'd all stand around scratching your heads and posting questions like, "why are there no successful kung fu people in MMA or against mauy thai???" You just don't get that the training methodology and live training is a huge part of the overall martial arts training. Its just two completely different mind-sets, thats why many of you don't really get what I'm saying...
Sure you can still run at home and all that and will need to, but thats besides that point, not in place of the type of conditioning training you'll need to be doing at the kwoon/gym, if you want to be 'at the level' if not competitive.

I'd like to address what youre saying about strength being less important and people like the gracies using just skill:
You are right about the end result, but if you dismiss learning and practicing with power, then it is doubtful that this end ideal will ever truely be achieved. Even the internal arts need to go full circle to achieve mastery. 'Hard' styles start hard and end soft, soft styles start soft and end hard, its that age old adage and i believe there's truth to it. Nobody gets to cheat and skip out on half the training and still be a viable fighter in the end. I love tai chi, i think its great. I also enjoy wing chun, crane and other soft and internal styles. But I think a lot of the problem with the way these, as well as other kung fu styles are practiced now are that people rest so mistakenly self-assured on the belief that all they have to do is keep getting quicker, more accurate, better reflexes, better timing (yes these are important, agreed) and only practice what they believe are the 'finer' skills, and while these skills are important, they are only a part of the overall equation. Better timing against what? A semi cooperative classmate, or someone else who's ignoring modern training methodology? You're fooling yourselves.

Recall the real meaning of the yin and yang; it is not just a soft, chi-hugging symbol, half of it stands for strength and power. People start getting chi happy so early and it turns into one marshmellow fest where they forget what a freaking punch is, are unaware of how they could get tossed, and are clueless as to what it takes to hold their own against a powerful opponent. I believe that you have to know force to counter force, even if you're able to use little power like youre idealizing, the correct knowlege of what youre dealing with has to come from beyond the other factors. You get a bunch of non-power people interbreeding in a chi-factory for too long, thinking theyre clever, and they don't even get to experience real external power that could knock them out and break them apart, and the end result is a clueless CMA culture that gives us all a bad name.

I don't believe you can properly or adequately counter power unless you know power. Jump in the ring with a good mauy thai fighter and you'll understand the kind of power i'm talking about, or out of the ring for that matter, so you can't use the excuse that 'we're wearing gloves so i can't use my mojo'... The gracies know and have dealt with real power and can use their skill to beat power. Same with many other high level fighters. Ask Max Chen or his father William CC Chen what they think about not including training for power in tai chi, and i think you'd be surprised at how they train. When you reach that 'certain age' youre talking about, which supposedly with enough skill will trump power, the only way i really believe it works is if that fighter had known and trained with and understood real power at one point (not just holding a horse stance) in his training career, and then uses the knowlege & skill he or she attained to defeat that more powerful adversary, otherwise its easy to underestimate it and you could be in for a world full of hurt. All ideal and little common sense or real skill.

I'd like to quote (from memory so forgive me if its a bit off) from the mountain climbing book, 'Mount Analog', for a parallel example to what i'm trying to explain:

"You can't stay on the summit forever, so why bother climbing up there in the first place? What is above knows what is below, but what is below, does not know what is above. One climbs, one sees, one decends; and one can no longer see, but has seen. There is a way of conducting oneself in the lower regions based on what one has learned higher up. Then when it is no longer possible to see, one can at least know."

My mountain climbing instructor Jason Edwards taught me that while we were camped on a glacier at 10,000' on the side of Mt. Rainier back in '94, and I have personally related it to martial arts as much as I have to hiking.

Sorry for the rant, I've been distracted and should get back to work...

[Strangler]

So are you saying kung fu people should train like boxers but suing traditional techniques instead of the four punches? Or are you saying all kung fu people should just do sanda or boxing and forget their techniques and principles behind their styles? By saying strengh is important and should be developed instead of internal power SevenStar your not disagreeing with me but with virtually the entire tai chi and possibly neija community as a whole. Why do you think push hands is taught in such a way as to not use force? WHy do you think the forms are done so slowly in tai chi? How can you say things like pushups, situps, running, and other excerises can't be done at home? Even on emptyflower those guys said that most of that stuff should be done at home and Felipe Bido said there is a student in hsi training group that ghe feels is lacking and should be kicked off because he never trains at home. and he also said his teacher meets with them only like twice a week and most of their training is done at home and they generally don't work on conditioning excersises when with their teacher. Shooter (tai chi guy who compete sin mma) says most of his training is done at home and by himself. Even EvolutionFist on this forum not long ago said he lost a fight due to lack of conditioning and that was because his teacher didn't stress conditioning but technique in class and left the conditioning to the students at home since with old age there is no way you can ebat someone younger and mroe fit with conditioning. Even Djimbe the guy who got worked on the ground by the straightblast guys because lack of conditioning says conditioning isn't the big deal because once you get the techniques and principles down and specific power generation unique to your style than the conditioning can easily be done within a month on your own free time. I can give more examples from the chinese martial art community, this isn't something I just came up with.

the power internal styles use is fajing, which isn't developed by striking objects. It is unique to only the internal styles and sopposevly with it you can tear internal organs. Ask Black taoist or Maoshan what he thinks about fajing (I already asked him on jarek's forum). He said it will break too much bones and other insides of your body to be use din competition. There is also the shaking power which I'm not much familiar with.

[Strangler]

Cerebrus made a good point here:
http://www.emptyflower.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.cgi/YaBB.cgi?board=done;action=display;num=1107267926; start=0


You don't build TECHNIQUE through sparring/ fighting. You build it through forms practice, drilling the elements and standing. You build the SKILL to use that technique through sparring.

[Mutant]

Strangler, i don't think youre getting the point i was trying to make. These things arent mutually exclusive or absolute. And i think you have an overly simplified understanding of some of these styles. We're just not on the same wavelength here...

[Knifefighter]

Originally posted by Strangler
the power internal styles use is fajing, which isn't developed by striking objects. It is unique to only the internal styles and sopposevly with it you can tear internal organs. Ask Black taoist or Maoshan what he thinks about fajing (I already asked him on jarek's forum). He said it will break too much bones and other insides of your body to be use din competition. There is also the shaking power which I'm not much familiar with. Let's see... It can't be used in competition. It sure can't be used against your training partners or else you'd have nobody left to train with. So, basically, it's never used, but somehow these guys "magically" know that it breaks bones and ruptures internal organs.

[Vash]

I've been hit with Fa Jing. I was in the clinch. Allofasudden, it seems like I don't want to breath anymore.

No broken ribs. No liquidated spleen. No disenfranchised liver.

Strangler, you have no urge to learn of martial arts. You wish to spread the gospel of the internal, whilst not understanding the internal practices, and not considering the externals.

Now, don't go getting me wrong - I'm a karate guy. I do forms as a major part of my training, as I often have to practice alone.

but, every chance I get, I'm drilling techniques/applications against partners at varying levels of resistance, hitting the bag, or throwing the iron.

And, I use a specific method of striking power generation - chin ku chi. From the description of fajing, as relates to tai chi and hsing i, it is applied in the same way.

And I can hit people and have them not die. But, they hurt.

First step in filling your cup is emptying it.

[Mo Lung]

Originally posted by Strangler
the power internal styles use is fajing, which isn't developed by striking objects.
Wow. So much wrong in just one sentence!

[Vash]

Indeed. I've got a video on my hard drive of a Chen Tai Chi player rocking the heavy bag (80lbs). Uses TC footwork, body movement, and BAM. Bag gets hit. Bag does not explode, burst into flame, or ovulate.

[Strangler]

Regarding the fajing. I was just repeating what I read and heard about it on forums and articles, and what blacktaoist told me (because I asked him why he didnt display it in his fighting tournament clips sand he said theyre too dangerous).

Or it might have been Maoshan, don't rememebr exactly.

[Strangler]

Originally posted by Vash
Indeed. I've got a video on my hard drive of a Chen Tai Chi player rocking the heavy bag (80lbs). Uses TC footwork, body movement, and BAM. Bag gets hit. Bag does not explode, burst into flame, or ovulate.

why don't you host it. You could always sue rapidshare.de

[Strangler]

Speaking of old school boxing I just watched a biography about Jack Johnson (first black champ) called unforgivable Blackness and he was badass, strong, fit and he hit hard and fast. The clinch work was really interesting as the ref didn't seperate the boxers and they would hit from within the clinch posision.

[SiuHung]

Originally posted by Knifefighter
Let's see... It can't be used in competition. It sure can't be used against your training partners or else you'd have nobody left to train with. So, basically, it's never used, but somehow these guys "magically" know that it breaks bones and ruptures internal organs.

LOL
Well, got to agree with knifefighter here, as much as is may pain me to do so. The simple answer is that they don't know. The 1 in a milllion that actually has experience applying on that level might have some idea...So where are they?

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Strangler
Speaking of old school boxing I just watched a biography about Jack Johnson (first black champ) called unforgivable Blackness and he was badass, strong, fit and he hit hard and fast. The clinch work was really interesting as the ref didn't seperate the boxers and they would hit from within the clinch posision.

that was a good documentary. I started a thread about it on the media forum. Dunno if you've seen it or not...

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Strangler
Cerebrus made a good point here:
http://www.emptyflower.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.cgi/YaBB.cgi?board=done;action=display;num=1107267926; start=0

the excerpt you quoted is correct. you don't build technique through sparring. you do however build it through shadow boxing, line drills, padwork, etc.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Strangler
So are you saying kung fu people should train like boxers but suing traditional techniques instead of the four punches? Or are you saying all kung fu people should just do sanda or boxing and forget their techniques and principles behind their styles?

you can hit the bag, pads, etc. without violating the principles of your style. So, yes, you can keep your pricniples and techniques (and there are more than four punches). you should be able to see your principles in application when you do san da.


By saying strengh is important and should be developed instead of internal power SevenStar your not disagreeing with me but with virtually the entire tai chi and possibly neija community as a whole.

nah. mutant warrior explained it very well in his post.

Why do you think push hands is taught in such a way as to not use force?

push hands is not fighting, is it? I can grapple without force, i can kick without force. When doing so, I am training other things pertinent to fighting, but not fighting itself.

WHy do you think the forms are done so slowly in tai chi?

Do you think that's the only way they train?


How can you say things like pushups, situps, running, and other excerises can't be done at home?

I didn't say that they can't be done at home. I'm saying that they are part of conditioning. fighters condition. If I'm training a fighter, I'm not gonna trust him to do it on his own - I'm gonna make sure he does it. We condition during training. on separate days, we will run - the coach will run with him or at least be present while it's going on. If my job is to make you a fighter, I'm going to oversee the whole process. When you train bjj, judo, thai boxing, etc. you are training in MAs that have a very competitive nature. competitions happen often, so you always need to be in decent shape. The whole class will not be push ups, situps, etc. however they will be present. The rest of the class will be various drills - pad work, technique drills, shadow boxing, etc. these drills not only build stamina and limb conditioning but also drill technique into you. there will also be sparring. It's really not all that hand to fathom.


Even on emptyflower those guys said that most of that stuff should be done at home and Felipe Bido said there is a student in hsi training group that ghe feels is lacking and should be kicked off because he never trains at home.

tell my bud felipe I said to come to this thread and I be he will agree with me. I agree that you should train outside of class. but, realistically, many people will not. that's why you train them in class as well.


and he also said his teacher meets with them only like twice a week and most of their training is done at home and they generally don't work on conditioning excersises when with their teacher. Shooter (tai chi guy who compete sin mma) says most of his training is done at home and by himself.

see above.


Even EvolutionFist on this forum not long ago said he lost a fight due to lack of conditioning and that was because his teacher didn't stress conditioning but technique in class and left the conditioning to the students at home since with old age there is no way you can ebat someone younger and mroe fit with conditioning.

that is a perfect example of my point. E fist isn't THAT old. his teacher doesn't stress conditioning though. This means that for his next fight one of two things will need to happen:

1. he will have to train that much harder on his own
2. his teacher will have to spend more time conditioning him.

E has been training for a while. He knows more than enough techniques to use in a fight.


Even Djimbe the guy who got worked on the ground by the straightblast guys because lack of conditioning says conditioning isn't the big deal because once you get the techniques and principles down and specific power generation unique to your style than the conditioning can easily be done within a month on your own free time. I can give more examples from the chinese martial art community, this isn't something I just came up with.

you just posted about two guys who lost due to lack of conditioning. Why? because the conditioning wasn't up to par. That shows it's importance.

the power internal styles use is fajing, which isn't developed by striking objects. It is unique to only the internal styles and sopposevly with it you can tear internal organs.

supposedly... And with how much training? cann ALL internal exponents do it?

Ask Black taoist or Maoshan what he thinks about fajing (I already asked him on jarek's forum).

BT and maoshan both post here on occasion.

[Strangler]

Originally posted by SevenStar
the excerpt you quoted is correct. you don't build technique through sparring. you do however build it through shadow boxing, line drills, padwork, etc.

WHat cerebrus said and any guy in that thread never mentioned modern boxing/mt stuff like padwork, shadowboxing, or any of that. Reread what he said, the core of xingyi (just as in yi quan) is standing, and meditation, as well as repetitions of hitting the air.

[scotty1]

Mutant Warrior is on fire! lol

"The 1 in a milllion that actually has experience applying on that level might have some idea...So where are they?"

Maybe they don't have T3e Int3rn3t.

Strangler, there's a lot of propaganda about internal arts, which you seem to have bought into. Listen to Mutant Warrior. More conditioning is necessary!

[Strangler]

than why in all articles onm internal styles and their training methods, and discussions on their forums besides maybe hitting a heavy bag or something of the sott, they never mention conditioning? And generally they always talk about standing and the five fists (xingyi).

[scotty1]

Mate, what people talk about on the internet is not the be all and end all of internal martial arts.

Conditioing is a neccesary part of fighting, whether it's with an internal martial art or otherwise, end of story.

Doing an 'internal' is not going to stop you getting hit, but conditioning is what will stop you going down.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Strangler
WHat cerebrus said and any guy in that thread never mentioned modern boxing/mt stuff like padwork, shadowboxing, or any of that. Reread what he said, the core of xingyi (just as in yi quan) is standing, and meditation, as well as repetitions of hitting the air.

I wasn't commenting on what they use, only that he was correct in saying that technique is developed through sparring.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Strangler
than why in all articles onm internal styles and their training methods, and discussions on their forums besides maybe hitting a heavy bag or something of the sott, they never mention conditioning? And generally they always talk about standing and the five fists (xingyi).

Alot of people, both internal and external try to train for the ideal situation - that situation being that the fight will be very quick - as in over in 5 seconds or less. The problem is, some fights last longer. When they do, you see the value of conditioning. the accounts you've posted attest to that.

[SevenStar]

this is a quote from a page that listed one of evander holyfield's training programs. I won't post the link, because I'm getting ready to start another thread about it:



Extreme conditioning is required to fight effectively for ten intense, 3-minute rounds and anaerobic endurance is a key aspect that cannot be overlooked. Short of an early round knockout, boxers cannot afford to win only the early rounds of a fight. They must maintain an intense, but measured pace throughout a long and competitive bout. So conditioning counts almost as much as skill for boxing success.

[Strangler]

Originally posted by SevenStar
I wasn't commenting on what they use, only that he was correct in saying that technique is developed through sparring.

Everyone knows sparring is important though, what we disagree on is valuable class time being spent on drills and techniques as well as sparring and most of conditioning being done at home. Another thing we disagree on is traditional training. I don't think it should be neglected and replaced by modern kickboxing type training, if you want that you can just take a boxing class or so. Traditional training has its use and will achieve results in different muscle groups and in different ways. Take internal styles for examples, there are no other styles in the world with similar standing meditation regiments, and that teach you to generate power ijn this unique way. Alot of people that have alot of free time can train in both modern and traditional methods. Even if you don't have alto of free time you can still spend a few minutes with each method rather than just hitting the bag all the time. Like people in various ima message boards always say, external styles like mt and boxing will only take you so far, after you reach this point of advansement there isn't much more room for you, you will have days when you are a bit better and a bit worse but you will generally stick at this point. That is why some guys are natural boxers and athletes like Tyson and demolishe evryone (early in his career) and others no matter how hard they train they can't make it. That is where styles like tai chi come in. They can take your current level of skill to the next level. That is why they take longer to learn unless you already reached your peak in the external systems and can fight before you train in these styles. Hence why Dong Haichuan only taught students that were already experienced martial artists.

[Strangler]

Originally posted by SevenStar
this is a quote from a page that listed one of evander holyfield's training programs. I won't post the link, because I'm getting ready to start another thread about it:



Extreme conditioning is required to fight effectively for ten intense, 3-minute rounds and anaerobic endurance is a key aspect that cannot be overlooked. Short of an early round knockout, boxers cannot afford to win only the early rounds of a fight. They must maintain an intense, but measured pace throughout a long and competitive bout. So conditioning counts almost as much as skill for boxing success.

Yes conditioning is important for a boxing fight, but on the street if you don't kock the guy out in the first 15 seconds or so the fight will either go to the ground, somebody will be badly hurt like their ehad abshed in or thrown through a window, the cops egtting involved, the guy's friends you are fighting getting involved, you getting a weapon used against you. A sport fight is different as there are rest rounds in between and many hits are illegal like punches below the waiste. ALso two boxers are often of equal or close to equal skill, when you look at a fight where one bhoxer outclassed another the fight generally ended quick. Mike Tyson ko'd a hell of a lot of dudes in his early years.

There is also a quote I have to look up again by some internal guy I think his anme was Wang something, and he said he only trains his students for a few second fight, because if it lasts longer they already lost. The guy has a reputation as a badass that fought or let some famous boxer hit him with no effect (forgot which).

[scotty1]

Doing an 'internal' is not going to stop you getting hit, but conditioning is what will stop you going down.

[Reggie1]

Originally posted by Strangler
Yes conditioning is important for a boxing fight, but on the street if you don't kock the guy out in the first 15 seconds or so the fight will either go to the ground, somebody will be badly hurt like their ehad abshed in or thrown through a window, the cops egtting involved, the guy's friends you are fighting getting involved, you getting a weapon used against you.

:rolleyes:

So how many 'street fights' have you been in? I'd also imagine that if the fight ended in the first 15 seconds somebody is probably badly hurt also.

And conditioning would help here with several things:
*If the fight goes to the ground.
*If the guy's friends decide to get involved--and if he has friends there, do you think that they are going to wait 15 seconds to jump in? If somehow, you KO the guy in the first 15 seconds, they will all say, "well, we can't jump in now, the fight ended in the magical 15 seconds."
*I'd imagine conditioning would especially help if a weapon is getting used on you, because you will be in that much better shape to run like Hell. Also, is there a timer that goes off to let you know that 15 seconds have passed so you can now use weapons?

[red5angel]

Yes conditioning is important for a boxing fight, but on the street if you don't kock the guy out in the first 15 seconds or so the fight will either go to the ground, somebody will be badly hurt like their ehad abshed in or thrown through a window, the cops egtting involved, the guy's friends you are fighting getting involved, you getting a weapon used against you.

ah, my favorite thing on KFM, gross overstatements about situations that are completely dynamic trying to back up a basis that is completely wrong.

Conditioning is important - period. If you're a martial artists and you don't understand that you need to start over.

On the street? Check out this webpage: http://www.personalprotectionsystems.ca/multimedia.htm

All videos of streetfights, and if you'll notice, not all of them go to the ground, most of them last over 15 seconds and very few of them involve weapons. you'll also notice that atleast for the length of most of these videos, usually well over 15 seconds, no cops get involved.

You'll notice I used the words "most" and the phrase "not all". some of these videso fall into your very narrow concept of how street fights go, atleast partially.

It's time for Strangler to go back to the school of street fighting... ;)

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Strangler
Everyone knows sparring is important though

Not really. There are plenty of schools that don't spar.


what we disagree on is valuable class time being spent on drills and techniques as well as sparring and most of conditioning being done at home.

I don't have a problem with conditioning being done at home. It should be, but in addition to adding it to class time. What do you think this "valuable class time" should be spent on, if not drills, sparring and techniques? conditioning is a byproduct of those three, if you do them right. Here's an experiment, enforcer - post what your ideal class session would be like.



Another thing we disagree on is traditional training. I don't think it should be neglected and replaced by modern kickboxing type training, if you want that you can just take a boxing class or so. Traditional training has its use and will achieve results in different muscle groups and in different ways.

We don't necessarily disagree there. I have no problem with stance training, per se (for example). But, people that think stance training is making their legs alot stronger are deluded. I also think that people who hold stances for 10, 20, 30, etc. mins at a time are wasting their time. Moving stance training though, and static stance training for shorter intervals are great.



Take internal styles for examples, there are no other styles in the world with similar standing meditation regiments, and that teach you to generate power ijn this unique way. Alot of people that have alot of free time can train in both modern and traditional methods. Even if you don't have alto of free time you can still spend a few minutes with each method rather than just hitting the bag all the time.

I don't have a problem with meditation either - I take yoga classes. I do however, think that doing it in class can be a waste of "valuable class time". I can do that on my own. What benefit are you getting by doing standing meditation in class?


Like people in various ima message boards always say, external styles like mt and boxing will only take you so far, after you reach this point of advansement there isn't much more room for you, you will have days when you are a bit better and a bit worse but you will generally stick at this point.

IMA is the same. take ANY ima "master" and put him in a boxing ring. he'll get killed. he may be able to hold his own with untrained or lesser trained guys, but the attitude in the ring is completely different. I have a judo coach that is pushing 80. In his day, he was a three time national champ. He still teaches and is VERY good, but he no longer competes. Why? because he at his age could not hande competition.

It's not an issue of taking it so far, but an issue of competing. You can train until you die and still progress, as the judo coach I mentioned above. however, you will be progreessing in knowledge, not in physical attributes. It is those attributes that allow one to compete. Tyson is getting to the point where he can't keep up with the younger guys. But I can assure you, he would maul ANYONE on this forum, budoseek, emptyflower, cyberkwoon or jarek's, despite his age and current state in pro boxing.


That is why some guys are natural boxers and athletes like Tyson and demolishe evryone (early in his career) and others no matter how hard they train they can't make it.

they may not be able to make it as a PROFESSIONAL CALIBER FIGHTER, but anyone can be made into a decent fighter.


That is where styles like tai chi come in. They can take your current level of skill to the next level.

When they start having pro taiji bouts, I'll listen to that.


That is why they take longer to learn unless you already reached your peak in the external systems and can fight before you train in these styles.

No it's not. It takes longer because the body mechanics are so different. that, and the fact that CMA is typically designed to take longer to learn anyway. That applies to both external and internal.

[Water Dragon]

Originally posted by SevenStar
When they start having pro taiji bouts, I'll listen to that.

Watch you mouf. Talk about Tai Cheee :mad:

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Strangler
Yes conditioning is important for a boxing fight, but on the street if you don't kock the guy out in the first 15 seconds or so the fight will either go to the ground, somebody will be badly hurt like their ehad abshed in or thrown through a window, the cops egtting involved, the guy's friends you are fighting getting involved, you getting a weapon used against you.

I bet your wack ass wanna be thug trailer park buddy told you that, enforcer. What is he up to, anyway?

adrenaline will sap you FAST. after 15 - 30 seconds, you will wish you had better conditioning, especially if you are fighting more than one person. Also, where did you get those stats from? Did he tell you that to, or did you pull it out of the same place you pull everything else?


A sport fight is different as there are rest rounds in between and many hits are illegal like punches below the waiste.

So? you can kick below the waist.


ALso two boxers are often of equal or close to equal skill, when you look at a fight where one bhoxer outclassed another the fight generally ended quick. Mike Tyson ko'd a hell of a lot of dudes in his early years.

right. and when the fight lasted longer than 4 rounds, he was in trouble. To expect that you will outclass anyone you meet in the street is a dangerous assumption.

There is also a quote I have to look up again by some internal guy I think his anme was Wang something, and he said he only trains his students for a few second fight, because if it lasts longer they already lost. The guy has a reputation as a badass that fought or let some famous boxer hit him with no effect (forgot which).

see above.

[Strangler]

We don't necessarily disagree there. I have no problem with stance training, per se (for example). But, people that think stance training is making their legs alot stronger are deluded. I also think that people who hold stances for 10, 20, 30, etc. mins at a time are wasting their time. Moving stance training though, and static stance training for shorter intervals are great.

The founder of yi quan Wang Xiang Zhai was a great fighter defeating a fith dan Judo guy and making him become his student and find his own branch of the system (taikkkiken) as well as a famous western boxers, and many others. And the founder of yi quan says standing meditation, and stance training is the most important aspect of martial arts. That's what yi quan was created behind, the core of the system. Here is an article about it:
http://www.yiquan.org.uk/art-pom1.html

[Strangler]

Here is the famous tai chi guy I was talking about:
http://www.emptyflower.com/xingyiquan/crossing/wangshujin.html
http://tools.search.yahoo.com/language/translation/translatedPage.php?tt=url&text=http%3a//jmmsa.tripod.com/taizzwang.htm&lp=es_en&.intl=us&fr=FP-tab-web-t


In sparring class, Wang would scold students if sparring was not ended with three strikes/techniques. Anything beyond was considered poor skill and would result in brute force, rather than skilled technique, and internal power. Wang was a no-nonsense teacher who emphasized the practical aspects of his art. Wang's students spent much of their time practicing the basics, standing in zhanzhuang postures, sparring and repeating the basics again. Wang was a living example of the success of his methods.

But I agree with msot of your other points, its weird how some people on other forums excuse their lack of effort in cross training due to their styles being superior in old age.