Where are the all the REAL VT stylist?

[Airdrawndagger]

I am so sick of all these people on this WC forum talking about grappling.
Its like everyone is scared of BJJ or grappling! What is your problem? Go and discuss your weaknesses and your fears somewhere else. This forum isn't about WC anymore, its about how everyone is affraid of grapplers and about how much of a better WC fighter we will all be if you incorporate grappling.

There has been point after point brought up about how to stop a grappler, avoid a grapling situation, anti-graple tech, but yet it still carries on...
"But what if you end up in a gaurd, then how do you use WC?"
"But what if a BJJ guy grabs you and takes you down, then what?"
"But what if I enter UFC and Royce Gracie has me in a figure-four leg lock?"
"But what if" BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Ive got some questions for you....
"What if a guy pulls out a gun and sticks it to your head and ask you for your money, how can WC help me?"

"What if you are sleeping and your house is broken in too and its dark and you cant see and you have no weapon, what do you do?"

"What if your walking home and your surrounded by 3 guys who want to pummel you, how will I use my WC?"

Folks...
These are "REAL" situations with "REAL" problems attached to it

Do you think you are going to be fighting off BJJ people where ever you go? Are we at war with the grappling community? If so then its news to me.

Get over yourselfs and your fears. Your like children affraid of the boggie man.
You will never be ready for every situation life has to offer. WC doesn't have the answers to the universe, but it will present some very usefull means of defending yourself.

And in parting I have just one more question

"What if im the greatest BJJ/WC martial artist in the universe and a sniper shoots me in the head?" Does anyone get the waffs of my drift????

[SAAMAG]

Quite whining.

Getting sniped in the head is a lot less likely to be something that will happen to you...

going to the ground in a fight has a 90 percent chance of happening to you...

Get MY drift?

It's not a matter of being scared....it's a matter of being "whole". Do you think that military combat cares whether or not something falls within the centerline theory or not? No. They train to fight effectively and use whatever works. Marines, law enforcement, anyone that has a high likelyhood of combat in their jobs will ALL learn some form of grappling. Is it because they're afraid of it? No...(as someone else said) Is it because they want to be BJJ MMA champions? No. It's because it's a reality that is more common than you being able to pull of simultaneous attack and defense with every attack that comes your way.

That's what it's about. If you want to stay in dark...that's your perogative. Have you noticed that the "types" that talk about this are people that actually fight or spar on a regular basis? Have you noticed that also these types are people that actually like wing chun, and use it as a core art, but also recognize the need to be whole as a person who is supposed to be a martial artist?

I agree that more often then not we should be talking about purely wing chun and it's training, techniques, theories and all that...however this all started when certain individuals here mentioned the lack of skill in that area...and then another group of individuals saying it wasn't necessary. One's perception of the world is one's reality, but there are certain truths in all reality, whether you want to believe it or not.

[Airdrawndagger]

Getting sniped in the head is a lot less likely to be something that will happen to you...

Oh really?

Well then, tell me when was the last time you got into a fight with a grappler?

[SAAMAG]

Yes really, unless you're in the military which I doubt you are given your lack of reality in actual combat.

In the real fights I have been in...most of them lasted only a few moments. Typically it was a punch or two, one occasion was one kick, and the fight was over. These guys weren't what you would call "fighters" however. I do remember once when I was still in school, I think high school, I also had a fight with a guy who thought he was a WWF wrestler, outweighed me by about 150 lbs, and was about a foot and half taller then me. Needless to say this fight resorted to a clinching game, and I didn't fare so well even though I was punching and kicking him for all I was worth, they had little effect on the guy...my hits just weren't strong enough then. He actually headbutted me and that was pretty much the end of the fight...he put me down...I was dizzy, I walked away and that was the end of it. Other fights through the years touched the ground here and there during their course...usually at least once in the fight it would go to the ground or the attempt was made. AAALLLL my training when we spar we allow anything to be thrown in. And everytime the fight will either go to the ground...or again...the attempt was made.

It happens all the time in fights. Real ones anyway. Even in higher intensity sparring matches, the fights will go to the ground (if you allow that in your rules) when one is overwhelmed by punches...boxers go to the clinch, MT fighters go to clinching as well...BJJ will parry and move to gain a hold and go to the ground to keep punchers and kickers from punching...even lamen who don't really know how to fight (as we do) will naturally wrestle around on the ground. Sooo I guess the real question here is...

When was the last time you even fought period...let alone fought a grappler? Because questioning something like that leads me to believe you're either the best in the world to have actually fought and not been taken down, or you fought panzies, or you just plain and simple have no experience whatsoever. Which is it?

[Airdrawndagger]

Clever girl, but not that clever

The last time i got into a fight was a few months ago at a bar and it didn't last long. I punched them and they fell, period.

I did get into a fight a little over a year ago with someone who managed to grab me and take me down to the ground, with the help of 2 others. I was facing 3 people so if I was a great grappler then it still wouldn't matter i was out matched.
I made the mistake of letting him get into that range to grab me and take me down. I dont blame WC for that only myself. If I fire a gun and miss, its not the guns fault.

I should have used my distance better, and I was very hot headed, i couldn't think clearly because I was enraged, again not WC fault, just my own...
Yes I have been taken down. But I am honest with myself and with my own abilities, I have not perfected the WC way so until that time it will always be my own fault.

I have never mixed it up with a proficient grappler, mostly thugs or people who are drunk.




They train to fight effectively and use whatever works. Marines, law enforcement, anyone that has a high likelyhood of combat in their jobs will ALL learn some form of grappling.

Are we talking about WC effectively here or grappling effectively?

If you use the principles of WC effectiveness then grappling isn't effective, or direct, or efficent...

[anerlich]

"Well then, tell me when was the last time you got into a fight with a grappler?"

Yesterday at training. Three in a row, actually!

When was the last time you came under sniper fire?

For me it was at school, I was in first year, someone threw a half eaten orange at me from the Prefects' room on the first floor of the school building. Direct hit - I had this orange stain on my school shirt all afternoon and my mother got very ****ed off at me when I got home. Of course, WC would have enable me to redirect the orange and then go beat up all the prefects. Imagine how proud my mother would have been THEN!

As for the answers to your first three questions, read "Strong on Defense". That'll be of much greater value than your WC or BJJ.

"Are we at war with the grappling community?"

I'm part of the grappling community.

"But what if I enter UFC and Royce Gracie has me in a figure-four leg lock?"

Tap. Royce would rather choke or armbar you, I suspect. If you're not ready to fight in the UFC, don't enter!

Silly answers to silly questions (except the Strong on Defense answer).

[Ultimatewingchun]

"I made the mistake of letting him get into that range to grab me and take me down. I dont blame WC for that only myself..."

DON'T BE SO MODEST...Wing Chun will not always allow you to keep a grappler out of the grabbing range.


"I should have used my distance better."

SEE ABOVE.


"I have never mixed it up with a proficient grappler, mostly thugs or people who are drunk."

WHICH IS WHY you still think that Wing chun has all the answers to keeping a grappler out of HIS distance.

[SAAMAG]

Originally posted by Airdrawndagger
Clever girl, but not that cleverNow I should hope that you're not resorting to calling someone a girl simply because they see the need to be able to fight with their backs on the ground? Because then that would be quite the sexist thing to say.

The last time i got into a fight was a few months ago at a bar and it didn't last long. I punched them and they fell, period.

I did get into a fight a little over a year ago with someone who managed to grab me and take me down to the ground, with the help of 2 others. I was facing 3 people so if I was a great grappler then it still wouldn't matter i was out matched.
I made the mistake of letting him get into that range to grab me and take me down. I dont blame WC for that only myself. If I fire a gun and miss, its not the guns fault. You're right, if you miss with a gun it's your fault. If you don't perform your techniques right, it's your fault, and if you didn't know how to fight in the first place it's your fault. I would much rather at least know something of fighting in the range that I find myself in rather then get beaten to a bloody pulp and then simply blame myself for it later, rather then the style. So you're saying that these guys were all three holding you down and hitting you at the same time? You know I have seen guys that trained with ground and clinching end fights with the person they are directly fighting with within a matter of seconds...makes you stop and think that maybe if you at least KNEW some of that game, you MAY have faired a little better. But those are would've - could've scenarios that hold no relavance, the fact is you DID get taken down...regardless of how or why.

I should have used my distance better, and I was very hot headed, i couldn't think clearly because I was enraged, again not WC fault, just my own... Wing chun doesn't exist...only you do...if the techniques created are not there to address the task at hand, then they are not there. Period. So you're right it is your fault, for not being prepared correctly.
Yes I have been taken down. But I am honest with myself and with my own abilities, I have not perfected the WC way so until that time it will always be my own fault. Here is where you show your lack of insight. You will never perfect it, no one ever will. Couple that with the fact that even if you do gain a high degree of skill in it...it still doesn't address the totality of the task at hand. Period. You will simply be really good at performing wing chun, and will only be superior in the type of fighting it addresses.

I have never mixed it up with a proficient grappler, mostly thugs or people who are drunk.





Are we talking about WC effectively here or grappling effectively?

If you use the principles of WC effectiveness then grappling isn't effective, or direct, or efficent... We are talking about both...and the mention of grappling is to show that people whose lives are on the line, people that have experience in the field, do find the value of gaining experience in all ranges of fighting...remember they have no bias to any doctrine. Their only goal is to make the military stronger by starting with the individual.

[Airdrawndagger]

"Well then, tell me when was the last time you got into a fight with a grappler?"

Yesterday at training. Three in a row, actually!

That is training. Not A REAL FIGHT.

Of course these are silly questions because people are acting silly.

I have no problem with people who want to learn different arts, cross-train, whatever. Its your world, do what you want.

I am a firm believer in training against other styles and situations.

I do have a problem with people who seem to think that WC is weak and needs to add grapple this, and grapple that to it when grappling goes against WC philosopy- SIMPLE,DIRECT, and EFFICENT.
Grappling doesnt fall under ANY of these terms, which is why im confused.
YOU want to add to WC by incorporating grappling, fine call it something else because it is no longer WC.

[SAAMAG]

If you're using soley the simple, direct, efficient terms to show that something is efficient,

that tell us why you feel grappling is inefficient? Because what I have learned of it, it was very efficient, for it's range of fighting. It's not like they did 5 pak sao's before choking you out, or wasted a lot of energy wrestling around and gaining nothing from it...for that range of fighting BJJ or whatever JJ, IS efficient and direct, and simple.

[Ultimatewingchun]

"I do have a problem with people who seem to think that WC is weak and needs to add grapple this, and grapple that to it when grappling goes against WC philosopy- SIMPLE,DIRECT, and EFFICENT.
Grappling doesnt fall under ANY of these terms, which is why im confused.
YOU want to add to WC by incorporating grappling, fine call it something else because it is no longer WC."


IT'S NO LONGER YOUR WING CHUN.


As for SIMPLE, DIRECT, and EFFICIENT...

it is total arrogance to think that Wing Chun has a monopoly on those things.

[SAAMAG]

In addition to that, I've never said wing chun was weak, only that it didn't address all the ranges of fighting. I don't believe anyone has said it was weak.

I have stated numerous times how I feel wing chun is second to none for it's specialty of fighting...I am very very biased of wing chun and will defend it as well, should someone speak nonsense about it without any true knowledge of the art, but I WILL NOT BE SLAVE to it to the point that I'm losing sight of reality.

[Knifefighter]

I have done 25 years of training with knives and done quite a bit of research on successful real-life knife defense. I have concluded that knowledge of grappling, and even more so, BJJ-type grappling, dramatically increases your odds of successfully defending yourself if you are unarmed against a weapon.

[Airdrawndagger]

I love how the Pro-grapplers come out of the wood work!

Guys and gals, I posted my little encounter because it was real. It was one instance that could've have a million different results. I know what I did wrong and I have learned from it, its as easy as that. Just like if I were to be punched in the face, that doesn't mean i blame it on WC and quit.
You learn from your mistakes and move on. Im not going to say "Well I got taken to the ground, might as well take up grappling" No I learn and grow using what I know. That is how you become more proficient in something.

[anerlich]

If you use the principles of WC effectiveness then grappling isn't effective, or direct, or efficent

The strategies are different. The same is true of WC through a grappler's eyes. Also, many boxers see WC as ineffective, with lots of wasted motion. Opinions and perceptions vary, and ignorance, like defeat, is not restricted to non-WCers..

You blame yourself for losing your fight, not WC. I guess one question begged is whether you just can't do WC well enough, or whether WC is too hard for the average Joe to apply successfully. The fault might be yours, but it might be WC's also. Some guns ARE better than others.

If a wrestler won a fight, I suppose it would be the fact that he was strong, fast, athletic, or lucky - not that he used the techniques of wrestling successfully.

You're getting more upset than the grappling heretics you calim to be fearful and scared. Living your life as if deadly violence can erupt upon you every second is no way to live.

If you like things in WC your way, great. If you get upset because others look at things differently, try some self examination. If the forum really annoys you, why stay? Royce ain't got you in that figure 4 demanding you keep posting, has he?

[Airdrawndagger]

Originally posted by Ultimatewingchun
"I do have a problem with people who seem to think that WC is weak and needs to add grapple this, and grapple that to it when grappling goes against WC philosopy- SIMPLE,DIRECT, and EFFICENT.
Grappling doesnt fall under ANY of these terms, which is why im confused.
YOU want to add to WC by incorporating grappling, fine call it something else because it is no longer WC."


IT'S NO LONGER YOUR WING CHUN.


As for SIMPLE, DIRECT, and EFFICIENT...

it is total arrogance to think that Wing Chun has a monopoly on those things.

No one said anything about a monoponly on those things...
That is what WC is known for! That is the philosophy!

[anerlich]

I love how the Pro-grapplers come out of the wood work!

Yeah, we prey on the WC fundamentalists that came out first.

"No one said anything about a monoponly on those things..."

Semantics. You said that grappling didn't involve those things. Competence in just about any physical endeavour will involve those qualities - surfing, rock climbing, running marathons or sprints .... To say simplicity, directness and efficiency don't apply to, or aren't implicit in proper performance of, other fighting arts is to display an ignorance of the wider subject, perhaps even bigotry.

"That is what WC is known for! That is the philosophy!"

That's how WC *advertises* itself. But as you said, it doesn't have a monopoly. Arguably, it makes a big deal and claims sole ownership of concepts essential to high performance in any physical discipline.

"Grappling doesnt fall under ANY of these terms, which is why im confused."

Confusion often results when you attempt to proceed from a grossly incorrect premise like that.

WC is great. But a lot of other things are too.

[Knifefighter]

Originally posted by Airdrawndagger
WC philosopy- SIMPLE,DIRECT, and EFFICENT. Actually, boxing is much more simple, direct and efficient than is WC. WC assumes you are going to meet resistance along the way to scoring your stikes. Because of this, it has a variety of techniques such as paks and lops designed to overcome this resistance. Boxing assumes that each punch will hit the mark. If this does not occur, it immediately delivers it's attack with the other hand, assuming the same thing.

[sihing]

Originally posted by Knifefighter
Actually, boxing is much more simple, direct and efficient than is WC. WC assumes you are going to meet resistance along the way to scoring your stikes. Because of this, it has a variety of techniques such as paks and lops designed to overcome this resistance. Boxing assumes that each punch will hit the mark. If this does not occur, it immediately delivers it's attack with the other hand, assuming the same thing.

??Still wondering why you think Boxing is better or superior, as you haven't proven nothing here in these statement in regards to boxing being more simple, direct or efficient, just your opinion to which you never state as "IMO". As soon as the round punch comes out, the more efficient arguement is void.

James

[Knifefighter]

Originally posted by sihing
As soon as the round punch comes out, the more efficient arguement is void. Boxing has no round punches.

[sihing]

Originally posted by Knifefighter
Boxing has no round punches.

LOL, good defence Dale..

[Knifefighter]

All boxing punches move in a streight line directly from where the hand is before the punch is launched.

[Vajramusti]

WC assumes you are going to meet resistance along the way to scoring your stikes. Because of this, it has a variety of techniques such as paks and lops designed to overcome this resistance.
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((Trolling baloney)))

[jonp]

WC assumes you are going to meet resistance along the way to scoring your stikes. Because of this, it has a variety of techniques such as paks and lops designed to overcome this resistance.

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i can see why somebody might think this is the case, 'cause the deformations/interceptions are taught from the very start but i was always taught that your hands intent is to strike the opponent, only if you fail do the other bits n pieces come into play.

hitting the other person is paramount.

any other strategys are likely to have been introduced due to legal reasons in self defence classes etc.. where you may not want to be seen as the aggressor. thats the thing, wingchun is frequently marketed as a way to protect yourself, it lacks the sport aspect where aggression is more acceptable and restraining people is pointless.

alot of the reason wingchun has become so watered down is due to the way its been marketed and castrated for the average person who doesnt like to take one in the face.

its core IMO is effective but as the many people on here say its down to how you train it.

peace

[Ultimatewingchun]

"SIMPLE,DIRECT, and EFFICENT.
Grappling doesnt fall under ANY of these terms..."

GRAPPLING doesn't fall under ANY of those terms?!

Nonsense.

Grappling is just as simple, direct, and efficient in the REALM THAT IT COVERS as Wing Chun is in the realm that it works.

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As for straight vs. round punches:

It depends on the angle and the distance...sometimes it's wiser to throw a round punch.

BUT...if I could only take one punch with me to the desert island - it would be the straight punch.

It travels in a shorter line to it's target and therefore gets there faster.

To say that there is no such thing as a round punch is not true - that's just a play on semantics.

.................................................. ...............................


As for assuming that you're going to meet resistance along the way:

THAT'S A WISE ASSUMPTION...because quite often you will - so it's best to be prepared for it.

If you throw strikes that find their target without meeting any obstacles first...wonderful.

But don't count on that happening all the time - because it certainly won't.

Hence the logic and brillance of the Wing Chun infight contact limb-to-limb strategy and technique.

Which can upon occasion actually provide a cleaner, safer, and more efficient route to a grab and grapple scenario, I might add.

[Knifefighter]

Originally posted by Ultimatewingchun
To say that there is no such thing as a round punch is not true - that's just a play on semantics. No, it's not. Hooks and uppercuts in boxing begin from the side of the target and below the target respectively. The trajectory of the punch is a straight line with the elbow bent and the body rotating or lifting upwards. If the punch is being thrown in a roundish motion, it is not being done correctly.

Hooks and uppercuts often begin closer to their targets. Because they do travel in a straight line, they will often times reach their targets faster than those thrown straight down the middle. Hooks and uppercuts also often have more power than "down the middle" punches because of the added body torque.

[Knifefighter]

Originally posted by Ultimatewingchun
Which can upon occasion actually provide a cleaner, safer, and more efficient route to a grab and grapple scenario, I might add. This is true. I often use an outside pak sao type technique when I want to close into clinch range.

[Airdrawndagger]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Ultimatewingchun
[B]"SIMPLE,DIRECT, and EFFICENT.
Grappling doesnt fall under ANY of these terms..."

GRAPPLING doesn't fall under ANY of those terms?!

Nonsense.

Grappling is just as simple, direct, and efficient in the REALM THAT IT COVERS as Wing Chun is in the realm that it works.

.................................................. .................................

Victor please....

WHat is direct about facing off with someone and shoting in on them, then taking them down to the ground, wrestle for a good position and then use a submission tech? How can this be simple? How can this be efficent?

Why not deflect energy and attack. It would take less time.

[Ultimatewingchun]

"Why not deflect energy and attack. It would take less time."


BECAUSE it's not always possible to simply deflect energy and attack.

I'll give just one example of what I mean:

Energy has to be moving in order to deflect it.

What if it's a static energy coming at you (ie.- the opponent's arms are tensed, out in front of his body while in a protective position defending his face, head, and center - and his arm muscles are in contraction)...and he's 6 inches taller and 70 lbs. heavier than you?

Get the picture so far?

What are you going to deflect?

As he charges at you for an upper body grab and takedown?

In a small space?

In-between a bar stool and the bar?

LOL.