Pong Lai stance

[Tainan Mantis]

On another thread was made mention of the stance of Shi Zhengzhong.
First I want to clarify if it is indeed this stance that the conversation is about.

[Tainan Mantis]

Another picture from his lanjie form.
This stance is similar except that it is higher up.
More importantly is that it is used for different occasions.

The very low stance being that type of takedown of controlling the leg and arm at the same time.

[yu shan]

Thank you Tainan Mantis for the photos. The way John taught me... the back leg is at 45 degrees off of front leg, knees about a fist apart, front leg foot turned in. Differant from what I see here, I did see a photo of Li HongJie in the stance I described. More tight and with this back leg at a peculiar angle. Thanks for the thread.

[Oso]

sweet.

Tainan, from my limited experience w/ Pong Lai I have come to reason that this stance, in it's higher/taller version, is sort of our general 'neutral' fighting stance.

As we transition into working single techniques out of drills and two person forms I'm working with this stance the most.

Also for free sparring.


Am I way off base?

[Oso]

oh, do you by chance have a pic of Master Shi in a 7 star posture?
similar to the well known pic of Master Kui.

thanks

[yu shan]

Oso

This is my fav stance, just had to change slightly.

One of my students spent the summer in Taiwan. He came back using this jade ring stance in 18 Elders form. Before we used a Dengshan shi, I like this substitution with jade ring stance better.

[Three Harmonies]

So are you guys calling this your Yu Huan Bu (Jade Ring Stance)? We call this (ours is not as tight) Xiao Deng Shan Bu (Small Mountain Climbing Stance).
Just curious. Great pics!

Cheers
Jake :D

[Oso]

yu shan...yea, I like it too. it's something I've been utilizing as a fighting stance for years. Just trying to correlate.

Jake,
yea, I really liked the way it is used in your BYTT. What's in a name? ;)

[Hua Lin Laoshi]

I may be way off base, a hazard of thinking for myself too much, but I feel there should be a fair amount of comfort in your stances.

Each person is unique so their stances should be slightly modified according to ability. However, this should only be done after intense training in the 'proper' way (for that style) and should happen naturally.

Bottom line for fighting is if you aren't comfortable with your stances then you're fighting yourself as well as your opponent.

BTW, there are pros and cons to each variation. Stabilizing the lead leg against a sweep will create a weak point somewhere else that can be exploited.

[Oso]

HLL, I agree completely.

For me this stance is very comfortable though a fair amount of leg strength is needed because of both knees being bent. We do some plyometric drills with this stance as well as static (isometric) stance training.

I personally weight both feet evenly in this stance and the ability to shift weight quickly from one to the other is paramount. This is, to me, a truly 3 dimensional stance. Quick movement front/back, left/right and up/down.

[Oso]

I posted this pic elsewhere for laughes but then got to looking at it.

notice the stance. actaully more like Jake's version than the pong lai version.

[Hua Lin Laoshi]

Interesting but he's just lunging, not actually settling into a stance while executing a technique.

And I'm not sure saying you posted a pic for laughs and that it looks like Jake's stance will score you any points the next time you meet up with him. :)

But we all know what you mean.

[mantis108]

I have the good fortune of seeing Tainan in action using these stances in person. It is indeed very inspiring. I have to agreed with Tainan that they are for different purposes. But there is a correlation between them.

I basically consider both of them Xiao Shi (minor stance). The taller stance is somewhat like the 7 stars "middle stance". The lower one is pretty much the norm for most PM. I have seen pictures of Zhang De Kuai doing both stances. So clearly the height issue isn't about age. It is more about the function IMHO. Also there are subtle differences between GM Zhang and Shrfu Shr's stances, most notably in the taller stance. There is a very subtle hint of White Crane mechanics in Shrfu Shr's taller stance. Incidently, the taller stance in the picture is used as a platform for issuing an one inch type of punch. This is very unique to Mimen Tanglang. Sometimes I have to wonder could there have been a real southern roots in northern Tanglang?

This is indeed a great thread on Ponglai Stance and thanks for sharing that Tainan. :)

Mantis108

[Oso]

LOL, He is I, circa 1984

my thoughts on this stance from up thread were that it's not a stance you necessarily 'settle in' to. (not mocking your word usage) but a good neutral fighting stane.

I'm lunging, but out of the stance forward.

[Oso]

Sometimes I have to wonder could there have been a real southern roots in northern Tanglang?

mind that I've only seen the barest bit of mimen from pong lai but I wonder at a similarity to wing chun myself. I also studied a southern five animal system called lung shou pai which had similar movement inside the doors....just musing on my part, I still have much to learn.

[Hua Lin Laoshi]

Ha! You'll look like that again Oso, just keep working out. :rolleyes:

Let me get this straight, you were stationary in this stance before you lunged?

I'm thinking no, which would just make this a transition that just looks like the stance in discussion. Great visual though. It helps to see the leg positions we're talking about.

Just to clarify, to me:

a stance is a rooting position. Doesn't matter how quickly you move in and out of it, it's stationary for the time needed to issue the power needed to execute the technique either offensive or defensive.

a transition is a stepping position. Used for setting up a technique where max power is not required. Usually the power is generated at the point where you settle into (root) the stance.

[Oso]

Ha! You'll look like that again Oso, just keep working out.

:D





Let me get this straight, you were stationary in this stance before you lunged?

basically, yes.

but, I need to codify my definitions of 'stance' and 'transitioning' before I reply further.

I don't disagree with you...just a slightly different angle I think.

[Tainan Mantis]

I am just showing some variety here guys.
I will show more later.
The stances are not rigidly set and depend on the person as well as the intent in the particluar move.

As for the names I go with Jake.
The minor hill climbing stance.
But other schools use a different name and there can be confusion as my Shifu stdied with different masters who all use different terminology.

So my understanding of jade ring is a motion, not a single posture.
It can be seen in the drill called "jade ring step jade ring hands"

About the pic of the high up stance it is like 108 says middle.
But when I learned it he also called it bu ding bu ba.
Somethin like, "not nail not eight(as in the chinese character)."

[Three Harmonies]

I agree with the motion comment. I hope none of you would start out a fight in a stance such as Jade Ring, or Xiao Deng Shan Bu, or Cold Rooster, or Deng Shan Bu.....etc. In our system, Xiao Deng Shan Bu is used to take someone down over your knee (essetnially a fancy trip). I would not be caught dead in that stance unless I was in contact with my opponent some way or another.
Just my cents.....if I have any ;)
Jake:D

[Indestructible]

Hey, my teacher teaches Jade Ring footwork and striking in his mantis too. Do any of you guys do a jade ring float of mass?

[Oso]

Originally posted by Three Harmonies
I agree with the motion comment. I hope none of you would start out a fight in a stance such as Jade Ring, or Xiao Deng Shan Bu, or Cold Rooster, or Deng Shan Bu.....etc. In our system, Xiao Deng Shan Bu is used to take someone down over your knee (essetnially a fancy trip). I would not be caught dead in that stance unless I was in contact with my opponent some way or another.
Just my cents.....if I have any ;)
Jake:D

Jake: No. Not in it's extreme low position but a higher position but with the weight more evenly distributed. As I said, higher up, this looks pretty much like a western boxers posture.


So, what does everyone use as a neutral position?

[Judge Pen]

Originally posted by Oso

So, what does everyone use as a neutral position?

I suppose the best way to describe my neutral stance is a high San Ti.

[Oso]

so, my train of thought on this is if the posture with which one fights from is not in the ba shi or in the forms anywhere...is it any wonder we are often criticised for not looking like our style?


if we train the ba shi and train our forms but fight using another type of posture as a neutral starting point for combat then how do we 'look' like mantis fighters?


just some thoughts...

[Three Harmonies]

All too often we all get caught up in "looking" like our style. Let's face it....we are little bugs in that case! Not too flattering if you know what I mean.
Instead of analyzing how one "looks" try to envision(?) the flavor or spirit of the animal if you will. Let me use a couple of analogies from Xing Yi, since they have Twelve (some ten) animals.
When I do the monkey form (Hou Xing) it is not my intent to act nor look like a monkey, but rather fight with it's spirit. What I mean by that is monkeys are naturally cautious, deceptive, and tenacios. I want to encapture that same type of charachter. When one fights you and you utilize the monkey theory, you first appear timid and afraid, but this is nothing more than a deception to make your opponent over confident and to attack with more vigor. Once that happens the monkey explodes into action working very quick and aggresive. (I wish I was more web savy and I would post a vid of what I mean! :( )
So when one thinks about utilizing Mantis type energy or spirit, think about these pointers:
-Mantids are naturally small, so they cannot meet force
on force. Utilize absorbing, parrying, etc.
- Mantids are also very agile and quciker than ****! Ties
into above.
- Mantids pull their prey in close to finish them off
(Because of the structure of their arms they have
more leverage in close). If I need to explain how this
ties into anyones Mantis training, well.... we need to
talk! ;)

I understand where you are coming from Oso, I was their once myself. But I think if you continue to analyze and question like you do, you will find the answers. Then down the road when your students ask, you will smile and remember back when you were concerned about such things. :D
I cannot recall and fight (street or otherwise) where someone lined up in a "traditonal stance" and won! There was a clip on Emptyflower a week or two back, with a Karate school fighting a Drunken Boxing school. The Drunks (He He :p ) tried to do there swaying int he breeze, look like I am about to fall over, routine. Meanwhile the Karate guys literally kicked the sh!t out of their heads (because their guard was lowered). The few times (and I mean few) that the Drunks hit the Karate players they bounced off, simply because they did not have a firm stance. They were trying to do the goofy drunked style stepping. It was rather embarassing to be honest. I would have to drink after than performance! ;)
My point is..... the karate players were in a solid "boxing" stance, and it proved valuable both defensively and offensively! It still looked like Karate though. For what it is worth.

Cheers
Jake :D

[Oso]

I'm not talking about looking like a bug.

I totally understand about capturing the spirit of the style's metaphorical animal. My first 7 years of training was hung gar and it was all about that...and I get the spirit of the mantis pretty well though I don't always feel I can get my body to work it.

I'm talking about fighting with the tools w/ train with.

{huh, just kinda realized I jumped threads a bit with my last post. It really belongs on my thread questioning posture/stance usage}

[Three Harmonies]

Okay. In that case the majority of the stances are used as takedowns (Kao Die). Fancy trips. I too have had trouble getting Yu Huan Bu (or Qi Xing Bu depending on terminology) too work well. I usually use Xiao Deng Shan Bu (or some variant thereof) when I take folks down.
Jake :D

[Oso]

hokay...so, what you are saying is that there isn't this 'neutral' stance that is trained in traditional mantis?

It just seems to me that in a fighting context there should be a zero place that everything else flows from.

you are not always attacking or always defending. sometimes you are trying to figure out wtf to do with this guy who seems like he's about to whip your azz.

my teacher in hung gar had a basic stance he called a 't' stance that he taught us to fight from and we worked application and transitions from this neutral stance to all the others.

my last teacher (stylistically a mongrel) had a base stance that we worked from which was present in the forms and from which we also trained applications and transitions to other stances.

I agree that the stances are used for throws, that's been consistant througout my martial training.

[Three Harmonies]

Maybe I am not following you, but a "neatural" stance is what I consider a fighting stance, which is basically a boxing stance, or like Bung Bo stated, a modified San Ti from Xing Yi

Cheers
Jake :D

[Oso]

right, we are talking about the same thing.

But, why are we talking about our 'neutral' fighting posture as something from another style? And, niether xing yi or western boxing figure into the development of mantis.

just trying to make sense of it all. :p

thanks for the discussion.

[Three Harmonies]

Okay Oso, i'm really trying here....so hang tight! You know you are my favorite crazy white dude from Asheville right?? ;)
I am trying to see through the glasses you have on, but am having a tough time. The way I understand fighting (in general), is that one should stand ina posture as follows:
Chin tucked, shoulders slightly forward but not slouching, one hand/foot ahead of the other, elbows hanging down and tight to the body, hands clenched in a loose fist held up and in front of the body/face, knees slightly bent with a springy-ness too them, weight pretty evenly distributed sometimes shifting back and forth a bit, feet firm and solid on the ground but with an alertness to them ready to spring into action. etc.
Now I call this a fighting stance. THis is what I fight out of regardless of style. I used the boxing stance and xing yi's san ti only as examples. Nomenclature means little to me, so you call, whatever fits the above bill, it whatever you want. For me utilizing the specific stances of Mantis or Xing Yi, is when I execute a technique of some sorts, not when I am squaring off. Does this make better sense? Is there such thing as worse sense? Am I rambling on and on and on and on..................

Hope this helps. This much thinking makes my brain hurt ya' big Oso!

Jake :D

[mantisben]

I'll assume by "Stance" in the case of Neutral Stance and/or Fighting Stance we mean "Pre-Fighting Posture", since the word "Stance", to me, kind of defines what is happening from the waist down, where as posture would define what is happening from the waist down, and from the waist up.

Anyway, I think the best Pre-Fighting posture would be the one that allows you to execute the offensive and defensive techniques for your fighting style most effectively. For example, a Wing Chun pre-fighting posture may involve holding the hands along the center-line, since this would be most ideal for executing the Wing Chun techniques of offense and defense. On the other hand, Choy Lee Fut fighters might not see the Wing Chun posture as most effective for executing their circular strikes.

Wrestlers have their own pre-fighting posture which, I'm guessing, looks nothing like what Wing Chun or Choy Lee Fut fighters use.

[Oso]

first, understand I'm not debating that what you are describing isn't a good posture. it is. it's basically what I do...although sometimes I flip out and use a rediculously low stance but usually when I'm tired and have retreated to a tactic of waiting for full commitment on my opponents part and generally take a hit in the process of crushing my opponent with some crazy grizzly ninja shiat. ;)

second, my points have been about taking what i've always used as a pre fighting posture and trying to find an analog within the new mantis stuff I'm learning.

In both of my previous long term training experiences, there was a posture taught in the basic training as the pre fighting posture and, in the case of the second teacher, it was in every form we did.

So far what I've seen from mantis I would actually say that the 'catches cicada' posture might be thought of as the PFC but i really hate trying to fight from there. But, every set I do, with the exception of your BYTT, starts from there.

anyway, just exploring.

[-N-]

Originally posted by Three Harmonies
Chin tucked, shoulders slightly forward but not slouching, one hand/foot ahead of the other, elbows hanging down and tight to the body, hands clenched in a loose fist held up and in front of the body/face, knees slightly bent with a springy-ness too them, weight pretty evenly distributed sometimes shifting back and forth a bit, feet firm and solid on the ground but with an alertness to them ready to spring into action. etc. That is what I use for the most part. I learned it as monkey stance.

N.

[-N-]

Originally posted by Oso
So far what I've seen from mantis I would actually say that the 'catches cicada' posture might be thought of as the PFC but i really hate trying to fight from there. But, every set I do, with the exception of your BYTT, starts from there.How about this... pre fighting posture can be feet together, hands down at sides(if you're wanting to look at the forms). My teacher used to have us practice standing flat footed with our arms crossed and the other person attacking.

N.

[Oso]

That is what I use for the most part. I learned it as monkey stance.

great, that's what I'm talking about. Is it part of your normal, basic posture set or something else taught seperately or later?


How about this... pre fighting posture can be feet together, hands down at sides(if you're wanting to look at the forms). My teacher used to have us practice standing flat footed with our arms crossed and the other person attacking.

ok, the first part of that is just kinda silly. I know you guys think I'm just being stubborn but I'm not. I'm also not talking about looking like the forms but utilizing what the forms and other specific training is supposed to be teaching us.

The second part is right on and is how I have trained and teach self defense applications. The philosophy being that you don't want to especially give away that you know 'kung fu' by immediately dropping into a stance.

Also, apologies to Tianan as it seems this thread has been totally hijacked...I tried to take the question to another thread. Hopefully it's OT enough to stay though I wish more people would chime in.

[Hua Lin Laoshi]

You sound like I feel sometimes. Either not quite getting the point across or others not quite understanding your mindset.

If I understand correctly it is an interesting observation. You're looking for a zero-point or postureless posture that all others flow from.

I think we all fight like this yet nowhere is it found in any of the forms. Maybe in the old days they actually fought from the basic stances and we've just progressed since then. Or maybe they never stood waiting and went right into attacks until it was over. Real fights don't have time for waiting, especially if it's life or death.

My neutral stance is about what has been described although if I'm feeling good and confident I'll set myself in a cat or wide horse just to taunt or pysch out my opponent.

I also switch between motionless and continous movement to see which causes the most trouble for my opponent. Each opponent is different and you have to find out what gives you the advantage against that particular fighter. I really don't believe fighting only one way.

[-N-]

Originally posted by Oso
great, that's what I'm talking about. Is it part of your normal, basic posture set or something else taught seperately or later? We do this from the start as part of training how to stand and step.


Originally posted by Oso
ok, the first part of that is just kinda silly. I know you guys think I'm just being stubborn but I'm not. Maybe only just slightly silly. But formwise, in that starting position, we are supposed to be balanced, alert, relaxed, and ready move.

My teacher also had us practice applications from that starting position as well.

N.

[Oso]

If I understand correctly it is an interesting observation. You're looking for a zero-point or postureless posture that all others flow from.

correct but more specifically, something identifiable as 'mantis'. not necessarily buglike but something that is in the curriculum and/or forms.

like -N-'s stance being taught to him as a monkey stance. that was exactly what I was looking for.


Or maybe they never stood waiting and went right into attacks until it was over.

maybe not. but in a fight or sports match w/ an evenly matched opponent there will be times when you are just circling or moving while you figure out a stratagem or a way out of the situation because you are afraid you are about to get your ass handed to you.

I agree with the rest of the comments in your post.


-N-

We do this from the start as part of training how to stand and step.

My first teacher did this with us and the neutral stance was part of our initial stepping method training but not in later forms.

The posture from my second teacher was used in initial training but was also present in the sets.

another teacher that I did not study very much with utilized the xing yi posture everyone is referring to (because part of the system was xing yi) but had an emphasis on a 'natural posture' that actually had some specific things you were supposed to do.

the shorinji kempo folks I'm friends with have a 'kempo fighting stance' that is their base and I'm pretty sure it's present in their sets as well.

just some examples from my personal experience and the base of my inquiry.


Maybe only just slightly silly. But formwise, in that starting position, we are supposed to be balanced, alert, relaxed, and ready move.

right, gotcha. we used to practice from a variety of 'inobvious stances': leaning against a wall, one foot on a chair, sitting.

[-N-]

Originally posted by Oso
My first teacher did this with us and the neutral stance was part of our initial stepping method training but not in later forms.
We train this neutral stance more than any other.

It shows up in our version of Chop Chui. At the first turn around we go to the koi ma sam chui sequence. We use 3 fast monkey steps rather than bow and arrow stance here. This is considered the advanced way to do the sequence.

N.

[Oso]

I don't know chop chui but I get the gist of using the monkey stepping instead of the hill climbing. thanks.

[Hua Lin Laoshi]

So then what's the (mantis) name of this monkey stance and is there a picture of it anywhere?

I'm interested as well. Wah Lum forms mostly start with feet together (after the bow) and jump right into the first move, like Bung Bo. There really is no 'I'm ready to fight now' stance.

[-N-]

Originally posted by Oso
I don't know chop chui but I get the gist of using the monkey stepping instead of the hill climbing. thanks. Here ya go, Oso. Some pics from Sifu Tony Chuy's site. 1st three pics (hill climbing version) on the 4th line are known as koi ma sam chui.

http://www.northernmantis.com/tsahpchoy.html

Typical would be several fast monkey steps to blitz, and a low stance with a power move to finish off if necessary. In this case, the 4th pic on that line, stealing heart punch.

N.

[Oso]

ok, I've seen that page before, gotcha...I think Sifu Albright used to have chop choi on his old website too...it's not in Pong Lai, or at least in the Pong Lai lower levels.

As Jake mentioned above, stances are used for throws and I totally agree...I finish our basic throw dong pu(sp? maybe it's deng bu) throw in a hill climbing..haha, makes sense as deng bu.

I know, sorta know that is, Jake's White Ape steals the peach and it seems like the movement you are referencing in chop choi is similar to a sequence in the middle of the first road of the White Ape...but it is done with what Jake calls small mountain climbing and is certainly forward moving and agressive.