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Nick Forrer
01-31-2005, 05:28 AM
Found this on Steve Morris' web site


'As part of my trip to China an interview had been arranged with the leading boxing masters of Fuzhou City, Fujian who represented the systems of the Dragon, Lion, Tiger, Crane, Dog, Rooster, Lohan and Five Ancestor Fist. Whilst their demonstration of form was not particularly revealing (I had seen much of it before, and far better, by way of Yap Leung and his master Yap Ching-Hai), what they had to say with regards to Okinawan karate was extremely revealing—and they were in a good position to judge as they had acted as hosts on numerous occasions to those of Okinawa, Japan and the West who had travelled to Fuzhou in search of their roots. Whilst the masters didn't dispute the historical evidence of the martial art connections between Okinawa and Fujian dating back to the early 14th Century, what they did dispute was the claim that there was any similarity, other than a superficial one, between their respective practices. The Okinawan systems, according to Li Yi Duan, then Vice Chairman of the Fuzhou Martial Arts Association, lacked in what he termed 'essentials.' So as to clarify this statement, I asked the masters what they thought about the way the fundamental form of Sanchin (which embodies those three internal and external essentials of Fujian Boxing) was practiced on the island of Okinawa, and they just laughed. When I asked them what they thought about the way the form is practiced in Japan they laughed even more; some of them had to wipe away the tears. Because of the age of some of the masters I didn't dare ask them what they thought about the way the form is practiced in the West as I didn't want to be responsible for giving any of them a coronary. However, Yap's observation of a 'Western master' attempting to perform 'shaking' energy within a Fujian form might help: he said 'he just wobbled.'
The masters of Fuzhou, despite the visits of some of the leading representatives of karate in the world, simply failed to acknowledge the deformed offspring named karate that had been born of a previous relationship between Fujian and Okinawa. In the same way, the masters of Okinawa, Japan and the West who had visited Fuzhou in search of their roots had failed to recognize and realize the significance of the roots of Fujian boxing from which the profusion of systems had evolved. From its introduction into the Okinawan school curriculum by Itosu Ankoh (1832-1915) at the turn of the 20th century and its later introduction into the colleges, universities, naval and military academies of Japan, Tode (or karate as it later came to be known) was altered in order to accomodate military precision marching en masse, everybody moving off at exactly the same time in exactly the same direction and in exactly the same prescribed manner to the beat of Bushido and a miliary barked-out cammand, and it has been simplified and misrepresented by every karate master and practitioner since. So that all that remains of the Tode systems of the Fujian province are the old worn-out skins and feathers into which the modern practitioners of Shin Budo have climbed. The term 'kara' within karate doesn't represent the vast emptiness of ku that some wishfully imagine, but the emptiness one associates with an old rusting and battered tin can from which all the essential ingredients have been removed long ago, so that only its empty, hollow-sounding, distorted shape remains.
It was by way of this regimentation of emotions, thoughts, sensations and actions through precision marching en masse, as well as daily beatings ('Bentatsu') and wrapping themselves in the most superficial features of the code of the warrior by which they were willing to sacrifice their lives ('Gyokusai'), that the youth of Japan and Okinawa were indoctrinated into those Emperor, ultranationalistic military and fascistic ideologies which were to lead to hostilities with China (1844-45), Russia (1904-5) and later during Japan's blackest period (Showa) of her long history: the occupation of Manchuria in 1931 and the Asian Pacific War (1936-45), during which crimes against peace and humanity committed by the Japanese are amongst the most heinous ever recorded (for further reading I suggest The Rape of Nanking by Iris Chang, Japanese Imperial Conspiracy by David Berganini, Hidden Horror by Yuki Tanaka and last but by no means least, Kempeitai by Raymond Lamont-Brown). For me, watching men, women and children in small groups, let alone in their hundreds (or as in Korea, in their thousands) marching en masse to an ideological beat and military barked-out command is abhorrent and has nothing to do with the martial arts in the true sense of the term, and everything to do with the indoctrination of those who engage in such practices into an ideology within which they are required to forfeit their free will and delegate the responsibility for their lives to a supreme authority, who they mistakenly believe to be a wise benefactor having their best interests at heart but who in truth is just another exploitive, self-aggrandizing piece of **** who has somehow managed to float to the top.
Anyway—back to Fuzhou and my interview with the masters. Although the morning session went well, the afternoon session was to take a turn for the worse. I spent some time literally playing with a Five Ancestor Boxer named Tao Jian during chi sau, while Cai Chu Xian, a Dog Boxer and the chief instructor of the Fuzhou Wushu Martial Arts Association, sat in the corner snarling and growling throughout the proceedings, presumably ****ed off that I was making his favourite student look like a complete idiot. On the conclusion of the 'play,' Cai approached me, hands outstretched as if to engage hands; but instead, he rapidly changed level and came in low with vicious intent. The problem for Cai, though, was that I was used to people coming in low from my Earlham Street days, and I hip sprawled and stayed on my feet, and after neutralizing his next move, pummelled a hand inside and managed to lift and toss him clean over a coffee table and on to a couch, where I held him down until he appeared to have quietened. When I released him, however, he came at me again, this time slipping. I rebounded him back on to the couch where I held him down by his throat with one hand whilst wagging a threatening finger at one of his bulging eye balls with the other and saying, 'No!' as if admonishing a naughty puppy. His lips were turning purple and he was spluttering and gasping for breath, so I decided to let him go. Fortunately for him he decided to sit and stay: if he had come again (which I wish he had) he would have been in serious need of a vet!
My last recollection of Cai was of him shooting by on his scooter, his face black as thunder, with Tao sheepishly tucked in behind him. I laughed and waved goodbye, but neither of them responded. I wonder why.
Mr. Li Yi Duan, who had witnessed the incident, said that nobody had ever done that before, to which I replied, 'More's the pity. Maybe if they had, he would have learnt something.' Cai, it might interest the reader to know, apart from being Head Coach, was also the student of a number of famous masters, including Wan Lai Sheng and Chen Yi-Jiu; he is the author of Fujian Ground Boxing and is seven years my junior (I was fifty at the time and still recovering from a viral infection that had reduced my normal weight of around fifteen stone to just over ten and a half) .
The consequence of this incident was that all doors in China were effectively closed to me. An interview with Wu Bin, the head of all martial arts in China, was cancelled, as was a meeting with Tony Flores' Pakua teacher (Tony had accompanied Whitehead and me to Fuzhou). Perhaps these masters were afraid a similar incident might occur with them. '

SaMantis
01-31-2005, 10:09 AM
The consequence of this incident was that all doors in China were effectively closed to me. An interview with Wu Bin, the head of all martial arts in China, was cancelled, as was a meeting with Tony Flores' Pakua teacher (Tony had accompanied Whitehead and me to Fuzhou). Perhaps these masters were afraid a similar incident might occur with them.


Yeah ... afraid. And maybe they were cancelled because Mr. Morris caused a martial arts master with significant connections to lose face. One would think, with all of Mr. Morris' expertise in Okinawan MA, he would know the concept of "face" in Asian society. Being a good fighter doesn't excuse bad manners.

I think Mr. Morris was playing that fun game where exponents of JMA try to expose exponents of CMA as "sick men of Asia."

BTW where is that excerpt from? Can you post the URL?

Pork Chop
01-31-2005, 10:26 AM
that the youth of Japan and Okinawa were indoctrinated into those Emperor, ultranationalistic military and fascistic ideologies


that somabich needs to stop lumping okinawa in there.
it's an island that weathered it's own fair share of atrocities during world war 2 from it's "benevolent" japanese occupiers.

okinawan martial arts were not taught to the military while it was still in okinawa: only after it migrated north to mainland.

I would think an "expert" would know better.

Nick Forrer
01-31-2005, 10:32 AM
Originally posted by SaMantis
I think Mr. Morris was playing that fun game where exponents of JMA try to expose exponents of CMA as "sick men of Asia."


I can see why youd infer that from the quote but if you read the rest of his bio 'exposing masters' is not confined to CMA. He did the same thing to JMA.

Heres another quote:

'Everybody makes mistakes in their lives, and the biggest in mine were when I put on a gi and wore it for eight years, and then after taking it off when I decided to put it back on again and reassociate myself with those who practice karate in the belief that by doing so I could convince them that their fighting and training practices were completely worthless..........The reader should not conclude by the tenor of this article that I believe all Japanese martial arts to be worthless. Far from it. The only ones that are worthless are those that are quasi-martial in nature; i.e., those that represent unarmed personal combat in a superficial and idealized way. Nobody can deny the combative effectiveness of Takeda Sokaku Minamoto (1858-1943), the 'Little Tengu' (goblin) or the Oshikiuchi system of his clan, the Aizu, which Sokaku would later draw upon in creating Daito Ryu, a reality-based jiu-jutsu system second to none. Nor can you dispute the effectiveness of modern Japanese sports-oriented combative MMA systems. Indeed, if it wasn't for the initiative taken by men like Funaki Masakatsu, founder of Pancrase, long before the popularization of NHB in the West, the world of MMA would not be what it is today. The Japanese contribution to NHB and submission wrestling has been tremendous and if MMA had existed when I was booted out of the Army, Funaki's dojo would have been the first place I could have been heading for and not the Kyokushin Kai dojo of Bob Bolton and Steve Arneil. What is immediately noticeable about those Japanese who practice MMA is that although as fighters they put their quasi-martial arts counterparts to shame, they do not, like quasi-martial arts heroes, wear the personas of superiority and invincibility. Perhaps it has something to do with their willingness, like real warriors, to put their lives on the line in the figurative sense, repeatedly and in open competition, and not only run the risk of defeat but, win or lose, the inevitable injuries that come with reality-based fighting.
Pretend warriors, on the other hand, are never prepared to put their reputations on the line in open competitions, let alone run the risk of serious injury. Indeed, the only injuries they are likely ever to sustain are if a choreographed display or the breaking of prepared materials in sheer or over their bodies doesn't go according to plan, or if their intended victim in a dojo kumite by some miracle decides to fight back, or if in a game of tag they accidentally get hit. One of the best recorded moments of things not quiet going according to plan is captured on 1958 film footage (now on video) of Tohei Koichi (8th Dan Aikido and 5th Dan Judo at the time) taking on an ageing, overweight, out of condition news reporter with obviously no martial arts experience either of the East or the West, but nevertheless intending to put up some kind of fight. What the film clearly shows, though it is often cited as testament to Tohei and Aikido's effectiveness, is Tohei, the senior disciple of Ueshiba Morihei, experiencing great difficulty in controlling and finally subduing our totally exhausted pot-bellied hero with a 'Judo choke.' After witnessing Tohei's performance it doesn't require much imagination to speculate what would have happened to Tohei if the news reporter had had the fighting capabilities of a Tito Ortiz! The perfect moves executed within a choreographed display or some over-regulated competitive fight bear no resemblance (other than superficial) to those moves executed within an unarmed combat with no rules, regulations or conventions, or a reality-based replicated competitive situation. In other words, within a realistic unarmed combat there is no such thing as a perfect move, only what works best for you at the time, and anybody who believes or practices otherwise has got to be living in La La Land. Practice is essentially about, within a realistic combative environment (actual or replicated) learning how to avoid making mistakes and being punished for them and punishing others for their mistakes while anticipating how they might attempt to prevent you from doing so.
'

steve morris web (http://www.morrisnoholdsbarred.co.uk)

Vash
01-31-2005, 10:35 AM
Indeed. Though i've only met a few Okinawans, and befriended only one, I've heard nothing of "love" for the Japanese portion of their society. My friend, and his father even moreso, insisted that Okinawa was only a part of Japan "by law or by force." And they both had a love for their own culture, in particular the martial arts.

And I've spoken often with a Fuzhou kung fu practitioner, and have heard nothing deragatory with regards to OMA practice - it was pointedly different, but not put-down upon.

And the author of the piece seems to have an attitude which I don't rightly care for.

OMA > JMA :eek: :D

SPJ
01-31-2005, 10:40 AM
Okinawa is in mid distance between the southern island of Kyushu and Taiwan.

It controls the entrance of the East China Sea out to the western Pacific ocean.

It was a Chinese isle and "changed" hands about 400 years ago.

Japan never considered the isle an integral part of Japan. Or the islanders are not equal to the 4 main islanders (Kyushu, Honshu, Hokaido etc).

There are huge US air force, marine and naval bases there after WWII. The US servicemen stationed there picked up karate do and brought them home.

Soon Karate becomes the most popular MA across the globe.

Vash
01-31-2005, 10:41 AM
Originally posted by Steve Morris
Only teh MMA/NHB worx!1!1111!!1one!!!1[/URL]

Perhaps an over simplification, but still somewhat apt, I think.

I've known a few MMA/NHB fighters, all of them incredibly nice guys. None of them put down "classical" training, except to say that forms training should not be the primary method of preparation.

Certainly the man has skill as a fighter and a trainer, but he's an asshat. And I don't work kindly with asshats.

SPJ
01-31-2005, 10:44 AM
With US middle east policy for the century, and logistical support from the Pacific via Malaca strait, Indian Ocean all the way to the Persian Gulf.

Okinawa now sits the headquarter and command of the US Pacific fleet.

An interesting map (http://www.well.com/user/nobumasa/loc.html)

SPJ
01-31-2005, 11:07 AM
My Japanese is broken and so is My Chinese Pinyin.

Does Tode mean Tang Hand or China Hand?

Vash
01-31-2005, 11:08 AM
Originally posted by SPJ
My Japanese is broken and so is My Chinese Pinyin.

Is Tode means Tang Hand or China Hand?

Yes.

SPJ
01-31-2005, 11:11 AM
Here is the thing.

Okinawa karate or OMA may predate Japan's taking over of the pearl of East China Sea. It was a trading isle for fishermen and tradesmen.

The linking of OMA with Japan's militarism?

David Jamieson
01-31-2005, 11:41 AM
I think it's all good actually, and ultimately up to the person using whatever art they choose or even several.

To cast dispersion on an arts practice because 'you' can defeat it says nothing of the art really, only the practitioners.

There are a heck of a lot of crappy martial artists in the world.
There are very few good ones in form and function.

the number of crappy fighters is pretty equal across teh board no matter what the practice.

h2h is competitive or recreational, it lost it's practicality for the most long ago. It stil has use in law enforcement and to a small degree the military, but martial art practice is becoming more and more esoteric with every passing day.

i think that people like Morris fail to see the distinction between who the are and what they are doing and what they are doing and who they are.

SaMantis
01-31-2005, 11:53 AM
Thank you for posting the link, Nick.

I don't have a problem with Mr. Morris exposing martial arts frauds, if that's what he wants to do then fine. But according to the first excerpt you posted, he traveled to Fujian for the purposes of verifying the connection between area CMA and Okinawan MA. If this is how he represented himself, then the masters in question met with him expecting a polite discourse on history and martial theory, followed by trading hands to show either similarities or differences in technique (thereby either proving or disproving Morris' theory).

They did not expect Mr. Morris to make a senior student "look like a complete idiot" and then pitch his sifu over the coffee table and onto the couch. (I have a theory that living rooms don't make good MMA arenas.) At any rate he did not accomplish his objective (establishing a historical link) and he ended any chance to convince CMA masters that his ideas have merit.

SPJ
01-31-2005, 12:13 PM
Sorry to interrupt.

I have inlaws from Foo Chow or Fuzhou in Taiwan.

My favorite dish is Fu Zhou Nian Gau or rice cake.

Some of them practice crane style.

There is the southern Shaolin temple in Fu Jian province. I speak the Amoy or Ming Nan dialect. The province was divided by four rivers. The areas are mountainous and with lots of dialects.

Tiger boxing or Fu Quan is very popular in Taiwan. It was used in the Qing's Army to fight the French in Taiwan.

Five ancestors, crane, and tiger are all from the Southern Shaolin temple.

Karate linked to them ?

SPJ
01-31-2005, 12:21 PM
They are popular in south east Asia.

They influence Vietnam, Indonesia, Malaysia and Philipinos MA etc.

Oh Singapore has most of "oringinal" linages.

Including southern Mantis.

There are many Chinese migrated into the areas including Okinawa.

With them, the MA adapted into local scenes over 600 years.

Five ancestors are the 5 Shaolin monks survived Qing's destroying the temple.

Shaolin Wushu was forbidden in China during Qing rule. However, they survived in everywhere else.

Nick Forrer
01-31-2005, 12:25 PM
Morris *as i read him* holds the (common) view of a link between Okinawan karate and wing chun (which he studied with J Cheng in the 70s) the link being fujianese yong chun i.e. white crane.

OMA (originially farmers arts hence presence of sai and nunchukas - farmers tools) were appropriated by the Japanese and used as a tool of civilian indoctrination/militarisation (like TKD in Korea), taking the core power genration/movements out and replacing it with robotic postures and actions that could be used in mass drills. The combat ineffectiveness of this is then obscured by the institutional nature of JMA i.e. never fight back against a senior, point sparring/forms only etc.

Anyway gotta go watch Fighter in the wind (Mas Oyama bio pic film) now.

Vash
01-31-2005, 01:59 PM
Originally posted by Nick Forrer
OMA (originially farmers arts hence presence of sai and nunchukas - farmers tools)

Though that was a common belief, the history (what there is of it) is leaning towards it being developed by the upper class (peichin) and such.

joedoe
01-31-2005, 03:50 PM
Originally posted by SPJ
They are popular in south east Asia.

They influence Vietnam, Indonesia, Malaysia and Philipinos MA etc.

Oh Singapore has most of "oringinal" linages.

Including southern Mantis.

There are many Chinese migrated into the areas including Okinawa.

With them, the MA adapted into local scenes over 600 years.

Five ancestors are the 5 Shaolin monks survived Qing's destroying the temple.

Shaolin Wushu was forbidden in China during Qing rule. However, they survived in everywhere else.

I must correct you here. When you are talking about Wuzuquan (Ngor Chor Kun), the Five Ancestors are not the five survivors of Shaolin's destruction.

SPJ
01-31-2005, 06:08 PM
Agreed.

It was one of many legends.

Royal Dragon
01-31-2005, 06:53 PM
Let me ask just this,

How is a Sai, and Numchuaka used in farming?

To me they make much more sense as being martial weapons from day one, than the Farming theory anyday.

joedoe
01-31-2005, 07:01 PM
Originally posted by Royal Dragon
Let me ask just this,

How is a Sai, and Numchuaka used in farming?

To me they make much more sense as being martial weapons from day one, than the Farming theory anyday.

According to accepted legends, the sai were used to break up the soil before planting, or to poke holes in the ground for planting. The nunchaku were modified versions of the flail used to beat grain to remove the husks.

Personally, I think the sai would have been a terrible farming implement, and the nunchaku could possibly have been a farming flail.

Another good one is the tonfa - apparently the handle off the stone mill used to grind grain for flour.

Vash
01-31-2005, 09:17 PM
Right now, as far as nunchaku thought goes, is that the "original" nunchaku used as a weapon was a horse bridle - only vaguely similar to the accepted image.

The sai, as far as my research has led me, was originally a weapon used by those in the Sho's employ.