Words and actions and reality IMHO

[Sihing73]

Hello,

Lately I have noticed a lot of arguments that seem more personal than geared towards Wing Chun. It seems that there are several people on this forum who accuse others of "hiding" behind words or being armchair or keyboard theoriticians because they do not "fight" on a regular basis. Others may draw on "experience" to defend their viewpoints while others just follow the general tone and try to keep up.

Here is my simple viewpoint and I hope that it envokes more thought then argument. I am not posting this as a means of downing anyone else nor in an attempt to seem like I am some sort of practioner with the "answers". I am posting it because I think things have gotten a little out of hand and many people need to get back to reality.

1). Wing Chun is and can be a very effective martial/combat art.
2) Wing Chun with some modifications can be an effecitve ring art.
3) Wing Chun may have ground-fighting already inherent within it, but thus far no one has been too forthcoming with the specifics of what these "techniques" entail. Thus the conclusion is that WC as a whole does not include ground fighting.
4) Some of us are training our Wing Chun with the attitude that it is a growing thing and will naturaly evolve. Others want to keep it as close to tradition as possible.

The biggest obstacle I see is that those who advocate fighting and those who do not can not seem to resepct each others views. There are some who can but on the whole there is a lot of ego and if your not doing it my way you are wrong mentality present on this board. I think that both sides are guilty of "exactly" what they accuse the other side of, hiding behind words and not answering hard questions directly.

Those who keep saying that if you are not "fighting" you are not doing Wing Chun; to this I ask how are you "fighting"? If you are not mixing it up on the street where anything goes and the possibility of serious injury or death is present but are instead putting on some gear and sparring in class or against other styles, then you can't really claim to be "fighting". Can you? If you are taking it to the street for real then, IMHO, you are either very foolish or have serious mental issues, not to mention quite a few possible legal issues as well.

Lets face it, it is highly doubtful that anyone on this board is a true "fighter" or "warrior" in the realist sense of the words. But that does not mean we can not be effective when the need arises. There is a need to train as realisitically as possible and thus the place for "sparring" both inside and outside the system. But to put others down because they don"t meet your definition is kind of silly, imho.

FWIW, I doubt that there are many on this board who would meet my defination of a "true fighter". Someone who will do whatever it takes to win! As I tell my students, "I CHEAT!!" I will do anything to insure I walk away, even it it does not meet the approval of someone else. There are many who are much better than me in Wing Chun or other arts, yet few who have the mental will to do what it takes to win at all costs. I have been teaching for a litte while and when people visit I always allow them to attack me however and in whatever manner they wish. But, I do not "spar" on a regular basis so I would not be considered a "fighter" nor am I in excellent, or perhaps even good :p physical condition so again I must be deficient.

I have however used my Wing Chun on the street for real, not for practice. Since I am still here I figure it must be effective and perhaps I can pass on a portion of this effectiveness to my students. I am not trying to make them in the next UFC Champion but to give them some skills which might enable them to survive a real attack and make t home to their loved ones.

A reality which many do not want to face is that no matter how "skilled" you may be you are most likley to get hurt in a real fight. You must accept this fact and be prepared to fight on even if you are injured. A lot of this comes down to your mental state.

I normally do not like to put up my experience because it really does not make a difference for anyone else. Besides, any of us can manufacture things to improve our "Internet Image". But, for those who wish to tell me I do not know about real fighting I offer the following:

1) When younger I ran with a gang and was not the most pleasent person you would ever meet. One of the worst beating I took was from several others who used bicycle chains to teach me a lesson.
2) I have been stabbed and have stabbed others. I have also been shot and, while in the line of duty as a Police Officer shot others.
3) My uncle was Vice President of the Pagan Motorcycle Club and I saw first hand how some of its members trained for fighting. I have also dated someone from the Warlocks and also hung out with members of the Wheels of Soul and 49th Street Burners.
4) I have served in the US Army and also as a Police Officer for the Philadelphia Housing Authority and PA State Police, I have also worked as a Corrections Officer at Delaware County Prison.
5) I have been arrested a few times, the last time was for Aggravated Assualt on Police. (I won't get into the details but suffice it say my local Police Chief and I have known each other for years and we do not get along.) The matter has been resolved satisfactorily-hey I'm not in jail, am I?).
6) My sons mother had a drug problem and I had many instances while looking for her which opened my eyes to a lot of "practical" versus theoritical approaches to combat.
7) I have been robbed by one and more people and yes at times this was a gunpoint.
8) I am white and my wife is black, at times I have been in neighborhoods where I was the only white guy around. Sometimes this caused problems sometimes it did not. More often I have found people to be the same no matter where they are or come from.

The bottom line is that in reality none of this matters. My experience is my own and it has helpd to shape my perception of what is the reality of combat. Each of you on this forum myst do the same thing. However, do not put someone else down because they have a different pov or do not meet your definition of whatever. Chances are there is someone on this board who would look at you and say you don't fit into the same definition either.

My advice, FWIW, is to take everything with a grain of salt. Ask questions but keep your mind open. You may then come away with something useful instead of the usual egotistical blather which is often the case.

Sorry for the length of this post and please do not think I am in any way trying to puff myself up. I admit there are many on this forum much much better than I at Wing Chun. I just think it is funny how many who claim to be doing one thing are actually fooling themselves and may be in for a rude awakening if they ever do fight for real on the street. Every art has the tools needed to survive, it really just depends on your attitude and your base in reality.

Peace,

Dave

[Ernie]

Dave ,
there is no puffing up when you are humble and honest enough to share your real life

the best thread i have read in a long , long time

a true reality check
peace and good training
ernie

[Phil Redmond]

There are a few combat vets here Dave who know what life and death combat is. Your post was really good. Hopefully it'll help us respect each other more.
Phil

[sihing]

Originally posted by Sihing73
Hello,

Lately I have noticed a lot of arguments that seem more personal than geared towards Wing Chun. It seems that there are several people on this forum who accuse others of "hiding" behind words or being armchair or keyboard theoriticians because they do not "fight" on a regular basis. Others may draw on "experience" to defend their viewpoints while others just follow the general tone and try to keep up.

Here is my simple viewpoint and I hope that it envokes more thought then argument. I am not posting this as a means of downing anyone else nor in an attempt to seem like I am some sort of practioner with the "answers". I am posting it because I think things have gotten a little out of hand and many people need to get back to reality.

1). Wing Chun is and can be a very effective martial/combat art.
2) Wing Chun with some modifications can be an effecitve ring art.
3) Wing Chun may have ground-fighting already inherent within it, but thus far no one has been too forthcoming with the specifics of what these "techniques" entail. Thus the conclusion is that WC as a whole does not include ground fighting.
4) Some of us are training our Wing Chun with the attitude that it is a growing thing and will naturaly evolve. Others want to keep it as close to tradition as possible.

The biggest obstacle I see is that those who advocate fighting and those who do not can not seem to resepct each others views. There are some who can but on the whole there is a lot of ego and if your not doing it my way you are wrong mentality present on this board. I think that both sides are guilty of "exactly" what they accuse the other side of, hiding behind words and not answering hard questions directly.

Those who keep saying that if you are not "fighting" you are not doing Wing Chun; to this I ask how are you "fighting"? If you are not mixing it up on the street where anything goes and the possibility of serious injury or death is present but are instead putting on some gear and sparring in class or against other styles, then you can't really claim to be "fighting". Can you? If you are taking it to the street for real then, IMHO, you are either very foolish or have serious mental issues, not to mention quite a few possible legal issues as well.

Lets face it, it is highly doubtful that anyone on this board is a true "fighter" or "warrior" in the realist sense of the words. But that does not mean we can not be effective when the need arises. There is a need to train as realisitically as possible and thus the place for "sparring" both inside and outside the system. But to put others down because they don"t meet your definition is kind of silly, imho.

FWIW, I doubt that there are many on this board who would meet my defination of a "true fighter". Someone who will do whatever it takes to win! As I tell my students, "I CHEAT!!" I will do anything to insure I walk away, even it it does not meet the approval of someone else. There are many who are much better than me in Wing Chun or other arts, yet few who have the mental will to do what it takes to win at all costs. I have been teaching for a litte while and when people visit I always allow them to attack me however and in whatever manner they wish. But, I do not "spar" on a regular basis so I would not be considered a "fighter" nor am I in excellent, or perhaps even good :p physical condition so again I must be deficient.

I have however used my Wing Chun on the street for real, not for practice. Since I am still here I figure it must be effective and perhaps I can pass on a portion of this effectiveness to my students. I am not trying to make them in the next UFC Champion but to give them some skills which might enable them to survive a real attack and make t home to their loved ones.

A reality which many do not want to face is that no matter how "skilled" you may be you are most likley to get hurt in a real fight. You must accept this fact and be prepared to fight on even if you are injured. A lot of this comes down to your mental state.

I normally do not like to put up my experience because it really does not make a difference for anyone else. Besides, any of us can manufacture things to improve our "Internet Image". But, for those who wish to tell me I do not know about real fighting I offer the following:

1) When younger I ran with a gang and was not the most pleasent person you would ever meet. One of the worst beating I took was from several others who used bicycle chains to teach me a lesson.
2) I have been stabbed and have stabbed others. I have also been shot and, while in the line of duty as a Police Officer shot others.
3) My uncle was Vice President of the Pagan Motorcycle Club and I saw first hand how some of its members trained for fighting. I have also dated someone from the Warlocks and also hung out with members of the Wheels of Soul and 49th Street Burners.
4) I have served in the US Army and also as a Police Officer for the Philadelphia Housing Authority and PA State Police, I have also worked as a Corrections Officer at Delaware County Prison.
5) I have been arrested a few times, the last time was for Aggravated Assualt on Police. (I won't get into the details but suffice it say my local Police Chief and I have known each other for years and we do not get along.) The matter has been resolved satisfactorily-hey I'm not in jail, am I?).
6) My sons mother had a drug problem and I had many instances while looking for her which opened my eyes to a lot of "practical" versus theoritical approaches to combat.
7) I have been robbed by one and more people and yes at times this was a gunpoint.
8) I am white and my wife is black, at times I have been in neighborhoods where I was the only white guy around. Sometimes this caused problems sometimes it did not. More often I have found people to be the same no matter where they are or come from.

The bottom line is that in reality none of this matters. My experience is my own and it has helpd to shape my perception of what is the reality of combat. Each of you on this forum myst do the same thing. However, do not put someone else down because they have a different pov or do not meet your definition of whatever. Chances are there is someone on this board who would look at you and say you don't fit into the same definition either.

My advice, FWIW, is to take everything with a grain of salt. Ask questions but keep your mind open. You may then come away with something useful instead of the usual egotistical blather which is often the case.

Sorry for the length of this post and please do not think I am in any way trying to puff myself up. I admit there are many on this forum much much better than I at Wing Chun. I just think it is funny how many who claim to be doing one thing are actually fooling themselves and may be in for a rude awakening if they ever do fight for real on the street. Every art has the tools needed to survive, it really just depends on your attitude and your base in reality.

Peace,

Dave

Good post Dave, and allot of great points were brought up. As soon as the name calling and labeling begins (even though those that are doing just that are in denial about the very act) things start going down hill. Respect of others has to be first and foremost, because simply no one will ever be able to fully understand another's experience and/or POV.

As for Wing Chun combat effectiveness, you have to IMO look at the Art on it own, and judge it based on what it will teach someone. Looking at individual attributes is great, but since all of us are different and in possession of various strength's and weaknesses, it would seem to me that it would be impossible to make any statements or claims of superiority in fighting methods or training methods since not everyone can do what one individual can or be willing to do it in the first place. As a teacher of WC I can only pass down what has been taught to me, and ensure that the person learning from me has a good understanding of what is being taught to them. It is still the individual’s responsibility to first be consistent enough in their practice to be able to absorb the art into their system, and second, to actually be able to use it when involved in a self defense situation. When a 5 year practitioner of WC gets into a fight and drops his hands and fails to get any attack of their own off and loses the fight, is it Wing Chun's fault or the individuals? The individuals. And this applies to anyone learning any MA.

Anyone that has read any of my posts knows that I have a very high respect for WC effectiveness, and would list it as #1 for overall effectiveness in the MA, but I do not look at myself as invincible or undefeatable, as no one is. But IMO WC has developed my ability and effectiveness to the highest it would ever be to defend myself, more so than any other MA. Simple. This is not a blind man’s faith, as I have tons of hours of research under my belt with other MA and Martial Artist, some on hand and some just personal research from various sources. And from that research I have gained a deep respect for other MA, and different forms of Wing Chun also, so the impression in my posts in not to say that I have the "golden egg" and every one else's is white.


James

[Knifefighter]

Originally posted by Sihing73
Those who keep saying that if you are not "fighting" you are not doing Wing Chun; to this I ask how are you "fighting"? If you are not mixing it up on the street where anything goes and the possibility of serious injury or death is present but are instead putting on some gear and sparring in class or against other styles, then you can't really claim to be "fighting". Can you? If you are taking it to the street for real then, IMHO, you are either very foolish or have serious mental issues, not to mention quite a few possible legal issues as well. I'd be willing to bet most of the guys who are on the "fighting" side of the argument have had a few street scraps in their time.


Originally posted by Sihing73
I have been teaching for a litte while and when people visit I always allow them to attack me however and in whatever manner they wish. Having a prospective student come at you with his uncommitted, single-step attack is hardly close to being realistic.


Originally posted by Sihing73
A reality which many do not want to face is that no matter how "skilled" you may be you are most likley to get hurt in a real fight. You must accept this fact and be prepared to fight on even if you are injured. A lot of this comes down to your mental state. There are lots of skilled fighters who have had street fights and come out completely unscathed.

[Sihing73]

Hello,

Crimsonking makes a good point; one should not simply add things just for the sake of adding them. Nor should one discount what is within the system. It is difficult to find a balance and recognize what is needed to be added and what is needed to be studied further. Of course, this is also a highly personal choice and is again open to interpretation. Some people on the forum would tend to be of the mind that one should complete the system before making any changes. Others would tend to feel that if one has an immediate need then one should address that need in whatever fashion is best for the individual. Which is better to continue trying to do things in a manner consistent with "tradition" for lack of a better term knowing one is not going to be ready to use it for some time or to explore and add something which is practical and useful much quicker? I guess it depends on the actual need at the time.

Knifefighter, you continue to express the mindset which I am speaking about. Sorry if this offends you but it is how I happen to feel. You speak out against Wing Chun on a Wing Chun Forum. If you did this to spur us to look deeper into our Wing Chun I would be grateful. The feeling I get though is that you like to point out how everyone who does not think like you or train like you is wrong and how Wing Chun is in reality an inferior art in some way. Of course, judging from your profile you must be used to inferior arts as you seem to need five (5) different arts to have an effective system, perhaps more. Do you have one which provides the foundation on which to build or do you simply add whatever seems to be the flavor of the month?

I am sure many of those from the fighting side have had a few scraps: However my point is that if you want to claim you are training and preparing for real fights you must be engaging in real fights with a real possibility of injury. Gearing up and going at it in the ring is far different than facing someone who really intends to harm you. For example I see by your profile that you train in the Dog Brothers and other FMA's. So I have a question for you; How many scars do you have from training with the knife, if you train with live blades? Do you have any and if not how can you even begin to consider training with a blade to be realistic? FWIW I have several including a severed tendin in my left hand from a rather nasty cut requiring a bit of surgery to repair.

I do not only invite "prospective" students to attack me in whatever manner they wish I extend this offer to anyone who wants to, this has included visits from other MA's as well as some interesting street thugs. I have had more people decide not to join a class because it is too "brutal" in terms of how I fight then have joined. My classes are very small and I tend to like it that way. Of course, this is not the same as a real street fight.

I would be willing to bet that for every one (1) skilled fighter you can find that has escaped totally unscathed from a real street fight I would be able to find many more who were injured in some way.

To everyone else I appoligize for my tone but I am a bit tired of some of the nonsense. No one has a monopoly on effective street defense. Doubtless there are examples from both sides of the coin who can make thier viewpoints work as well as many who can not. Some people like the term "dry land swimming". Well, IMHO, if you claim to be a true fighter yet do not expose yourself to possible real life threatening injury then perhaps you are guilty of swimming on dry land as well. I am not advocating seeking out real fights, I am simply pointing out that the same brush used ot paint others may be turned on you as well.

If you do not agree with me then that is fine and your right. However, it is highly doubtful that any of us has the right to pass judgement on anyone else, myself included without being privy to all of their experiences.

Peace,

Dave

[sihing]

Another Good couple of post by Dave and Crimsonking. The fact of the matter is, IMO, anyone with high quality skill in WC will be hard to beat, and this is also true of anyone of similar high quality from most any "High" quality Martial Art.

As usual most on here are scared of the Grapplers, at least this month they are. Last month it was the Muay Thai people, but February is among us now so I guess we will be switching to them soon. Anyways, unless you are in the closet, most all of us have seen what they all have to offer. As a professional MA, those that teach it or promote the arts to others, you have to gain a keen eye (or you should) as to what the competition has to offer in comparison to what you offer and also in the realm of what they have to offer in regards to combat effectiveness. All of the above Arts are dangerous Arts as they allow one to lay major damage on someone that is unprepared or non expecting, so to underestimate them would be a mistake. The same should hold true for those looking at WC, underestimate it and you make it even easier for us to win in the end. No one, at least I can't recall anyone, claiming the fact that the other MA represent no skill or effectiveness. IMO it is just not to the same degree that WC does.


James

[Knifefighter]

Originally posted by Sihing73
The feeling I get though is that you like to point out how everyone who does not think like you or train like you is wrong and how Wing Chun is in reality an inferior art in some way.

I do not only invite "prospective" students to attack me in whatever manner they wish I extend this offer to anyone who wants to, this has included visits from other MA's as well as some interesting street thugs.

Of course, this is not the same as a real street fight. In this case, I was just pointing out the probable BS in your statement about having people attack you in your school. If they were really attaking you, it would be pretty much like a street fight. And if this was occurring on a regular basiss, the chances are, you would most likely get your ass handed to you occasionally.


Originally posted by Sihing73
Of course, judging from your profile you must be used to inferior arts as you seem to need five (5) different arts to have an effective system, perhaps more. Do you have one which provides the foundation on which to build or do you simply add whatever seems to be the flavor of the month?Wrestling 30 years, boxing & Muay Thai 20 years; stick and knife work 20 years; BJJ 11 years. Each of these has particular weaknesses. Together, they make a pretty strong combination, I believe.
BTW, Which one of these would be the flavor of the month?



Originally posted by Sihing73
So I have a question for you; How many scars do you have from training with the knife, if you train with live blades? Do you have any and if not how can you even begin to consider training with a blade to be realistic? I've had two visits to the emergency room to get stiched up from live blades. Once through my hand and the other into my side.

I've also had my ribs broken in a Dog Bros fight after being stabbed with an unsharpened steel blade.

I am in agreement with you regarding unrealistic blade training, however. I consider my knife training to be the least realistic of everything I do. It's much harder to go 100% with edged weapons in a realistic manner and stay alive than it is to do the same unarmed or with sticks.

[Sihing73]

Originally posted by Knifefighter
In this case, I was just pointing out the probable BS in your statement about having people attack you in your school. If they were really attaking you, it would be pretty much like a street fight. And if this was occurring on a regular basiss, the chances are, you would most likely get your ass handed to you occasionally.

Wrestling 30 years, boxing & Muay Thai 20 years; stick and knife work 20 years; BJJ 11 years. Each of these has particular weaknesses. Together, they make a pretty strong combination, I believe.
BTW, Which one of these would be the flavor of the month?


I've had two visits to the emergency room to get stiched up from live blades. Once through my hand and the other into my side.

I've also had my ribs broken in a Dog Bros fight after being stabbed with an unsharpened steel blade.

I am in agreement with you regarding unrealistic blade training, however. I consider my knife training to be the least realistic of everything I do. It's much harder to go 100% with edged weapons in a realistic manner and stay alive than it is to do the same unarmed or with sticks.

Hello,

Fair enough, I have had my a** handed to me on more than one occassion. I do not have people "challenge" me on a regular basis. My point is that the door and opportunity is always there. If I get beat then so be it, I hope to learn from it. Of course this is still a much different animal than a real street fight. ;)

I do not know which would be the flavor of the month but I would again stress my belief in the need for a firm foundation in one art before interjecting others. Sounds like your foundation would be more boxing and MT, ??

I know the ER visits as well. Sometimes from my own stupidity. I also train Pekiti Tirsia so I am familiar with some rather intense training and the people who partake in such.

The point about being unable to go full out with a live blade serves to illustrate the point I am trying to make about claiming to do "real fighting". Kind of hard to do either without incurring some type of injury.

Peace,

Dave

[sihing]

Just a quick observation about Dale's comment regarding live Blade work. Again this is an individual choice and not everyone will work, full out 100% against someone with live blades, which IMO is not worth the risk of gain combat effectiveness. Both of you Dale and Dave have had hospital visit due to live blade work, what happens when the blade hits the wrong spot and there is no time for the hospital visit to happen? Of course I do not believe that you just learn slowly how to defend yourself against a knife wielding attacker and have it work instantly on the street, you have to increase the intensity and randomness of the training to make it realistic as possible, same holds true with any aspect of MA training, so in this case Dale may hold the absolute best way to achieve that but at what expense. Even Ernie has been sidelined to due over excursion in training and is suffering for it. There has to be a moderation of methods, and going to extremes at times will happen but to stay there long will cost someone something.

James

[Ernie]

James-Even Ernie has been sidelined to due over excursion in training and is suffering for it. There has to be a moderation of methods, and going to extremes at times will happen but to stay there long will cost someone something.


dude this is not ballet this is training for fighting , injuries are par for the course.

i have suffered way worse injuries , snowboarding,mountain biking , rafting , car crashes etc.........


safety is first of course but if 2 people are really trying to hit each other there will be some damage

hell even dancers pull a muscle :D

an so what if i'm hurt sure it sucks , but my footwrk is getting worked my timing , my stick and knife sparring is going along no problem , single hand sparring against guys that can use both
even wing chun , since i can't be explosive or take any push or pull on my bad arm i have to use things like feeling , position and footwork in a more passive lighter quiter way

though i did recently work out with a visitor from a school that is big on holding the wrist and dynamic strength in there wing chun with cooked my bad arm and caused me to relapse

this is my bad judgement i should not have stayed in the game once i saw the style he used but i'm stupid that way:D

[sihing]

Like I said moderation is the key, not total absence of or total obsession with whatever the activity is. You have been injured and now re-injured again because of maybe your obsession with it, I don't know. Yes you can do other things to supplement while you recover, as you don't just want to sit around and do nothing, that's good. Bruce Lee did the same thing and it's fair to say that if he didn't die before his time (which some speculate that the overtraining/obsession thing may have had a hand in his early departure) that he may not have been able to continue to do the things he did on screen, just due to training injuries and such. My own Sifu has done this and has to watch at times that he doesn't re-injure the things that have caused him concern.

Just a few months ago a provincial MA magazine editor was in the office to confirm some advertising and discuss an article on Sifu, the guy is a Muay Thai practitioner and becoming an instructor and walked in with a big brace/cast on his left knee. He was sparring and got caught with a low round kick to his knee, and low and behold he now needs two surgeries to repair it all. To say the least he was quite upset about it and with his partner. I'm not saying you shouldn't go out there and mix things up, and things will happen but when serious injuries occur like this one then that line in the sand, at least for me, has been crossed and the cost of effective training has gone over budget, IMO. Plus I'm a puss when it comes to pain threshold, lol.


James

[Knifefighter]

Here's a great post from the main forum regarding training more realistically:


Senior Member


Registered: Dec 1969
Location: boston harbor
Posts: 517
quote:

Originally posted by HearWa
Ok, let's change it to the origional stated topic then.

Got anything useful to say? I don't, that's why I asked the
question!




Okay. Well i don't know if this would be considered useful to you or not but i'll take a
stab at it...

Seeing that you want to train your particular CMA with the intensity of a boxer, what
you need to understand is the methodology and mindset. You'll need to research what it
takes to train like this, and a lot of this is available info on the web. Look for training
blogs of professional fighters adn see what their training regimines are, see what their
livestyles are like, as this type of training intensity affects your diet, sleeping, lifestyle...
and then start to model your own training based on what these guys do.

Go to ringside.com and get some basic boxing training videos from john brown or mma
training from chuck liddle, even if you don't copy them exactly, you can use the
methodology to train your own, & some of these videos are real cheap. Also get some
quality training gear (boxing, san da or thai style pads, headgear, gloves, wraps, cup,
mouthpiece, shin-guards, bags, etc.) as you'll need this to train consistently with the
proper intensity w/o getting constantly sidelined with injuries. Resist the common CMA
inclination to obsess over antiquated training methods and gear, mixing some of the old
stuff in might be okay, but to train like a modern full contact fighter you will need to
esckew that anachronistic mentality and take full advantage of modern technology and
methods, this will enable you to 'train with the intensity of a boxer'. I'm sure you could
train real hard the old way too, but unless you want to live like a monk of old, the new
technology will allow you to train hard and smart and still have a life, and in the end the
modern training will probably win anyway, and the real fighters of old were not fools,
they would have jumped at the opportunity to use good modern gear.

If you have a chance to take boxing classes or MMA classes jump at the opportunity, as
this can teach you the training methodology which you could then use to train your own
CMA material. Don't worry about if not being real CMA anymore because youre not
doing your stereotypical form-intensive kung fooey reutines, as the core of the systems
are not in the 'fluff' anyway and you owe nothing to this stuff, find the core techniques,
the basics, the methods of power generation, and break them down to the elements and
then train these pieces in the way that a boxing coach would make yuo train this, with
the same intensity and focus.

Maybe you should get sifu Ross's new San Da training video to see how a modern san
da school trains traditional CMA techiques in a way that can compete with modern
fighters from other styles like boxing and mauy thai (i havent seen this but it might
answer some of your questions and give an idea of how you could achieve what youre
looking for).

Lastly, training like this is a lot of hard work, it strains and hurts you and pushes you
beyond how you would rationally push yourself. This is one big reason many
practitioners don't train like this, they'd rather focus on dressing up and playing games,
doing the relatively easy forms, not having to go anaerobic or having muscles
constantly broken down and rehealing and acheing, getting your nose broken or
knocked out. But this is real fight training; prancing around in silk pajamas worrying
about whether you did the salutation correct is not.
Get a coach if you can, otherwise its difficult to consistently push yourself like you'll
need to. Also, while not a nessesity to get into 'boxer' shape, training for competition
definately helps keep you focused and can provide the resisting opponent everyone
spends so much time theorizing about but seldom faces. Once you get a reutine down
and start to feel like youre getting somewhere, get yourself matched up for a ring fight
to really push yourself and focus your training, then compete, and adjust your training
based on the results, a perfect feedback loop. Don't worry about it 'corrupting' your
CMA style, it won't, and will ultimately help in the long run.

Remember, we're not beholden to some ancient style, as so many become a prisoner of
it, but use it and make it work for you, with the best technology and training methods
available!

[RedJunkRebel]

Originally posted by Sihing73
Lately I have noticed a lot of arguments that seem more personal than geared towards Wing Chun.

The biggest obstacle I see is that those who advocate fighting and those who do not can not seem to respect each others views. I think these two sentences sum it up. On too many are so concerned with being right and winning a debate that they can't just share in a respectful and professional way.

[kj]

Originally posted by RedJunkRebel
I think these two sentences sum it up. On too many are so concerned with being right and winning a debate that they can't just share in a respectful and professional way.

To their credit, there are some who have demonstrated the capability. They just don't tend to attract as much attention or commentary as ad hominem attacks and flaming posts.

Regards,
- kj

[sihing]

Originally posted by kj
To their credit, there are some who have demonstrated the capability. They just don't tend to attract as much attention or commentary as ad hominem attacks and flaming posts.

Regards,
- kj

True statements.