Jue Yuan and Damo

[r.(shaolin)]

Althought a number of history articles posted on aboutshaolin.com are a mixture of myth and fact (in some case even their facts are questionable), it is still interesting and worth a read.

A recent article posted by the editorial team call "Bodhidharma is not a Myth" speaks about a stele found in March of 2004.

Apparently the stele was found in San Men Xia County and is dated Nov 25, 772 AD, from the Tang Dynasty. It is recorded as saying that 300 years after Damo's death the emperor of the time, gave Damo the new name/title, "Yuan Jue", at the request of Premier Guo Zi Yi.

The name "Jue Yuan" is a key figure in the development of Shaolin wushu and is part of the legends of many Shaolin traditions. However, Jue Yuan is generally place in a much later period. Our tradition places Jue Yuan in association with Bai Yufeng sometime in the Yuan Dynasty.

Wondering aloud, possibly Yuan Jue, Jue Yuan, and Damo were one and the same person.

r.

[mickey]

Greetings,

Romanizations are one thing; Chinese characters are another.

Though a very interesting hypothesis, one needs to see the Chinese characters for both Yuan Jue and Jue Yuan. And also one needs to determine the surname of each.

Save your excitement for when you strike gold. It may not be far away.

mickey

[mickey]

Question:

"dated November 25, 772 A.D."????

Either it is a translation error or a MAJOR hoax. The Chinese would have an eleventh month, 25th day. When did they start using the Western calender and years (772 A.D.-- come on!!!) for time reference?

mickey

[r.(shaolin)]

"one needs to see the Chinese characters for both Yuan Jue and Jue Yuan."

Yes you are right, and even if the characters are the same it is not
outside possiblities that the later Jue Yuan was a purposeful reference to Damo.

r.

[mickey]

Now assuming there is a translation error and the stele is correct and let us say that Yuan Jue and Jue Yuan are one and the same. That would mean that Bai YuFeng was privy to Damo's teachings; namely, the Muscle Tendon exercises and the Marrow Washing Techniques. If this was the case, the Five animals would be, at least, symbolically representative of those teachings:

Tiger: Bones
Leopard: Muscles > These would represent Muscle Tendon
Crane: Sinew

Snake: Sexual Essence
Dragon: Spirit >These two would represent Marrow Washing:
The transmutation of sexual energy to the brain to renew and liberate. (To me, the same as kundalini: the snake and dragon symbolizing the ida and the pingala)

I also thought the parallel reference may have been deliberate. If that was the case, it would only strengthen the belief that Damo brought more than meditation methods to China. Jue Yuan may have wanted to restore that glory.

Food for thought.

mickey

[r.(shaolin)]

"dated November 25, 772 A.D."????

:-))) The stele must have been dated – Nov. 25th, 772 AD, is the western equivalent no doubt. The article did not give the year name, but from the date it was in during the reign of Emperor Dai Zong of the Tang Dynasty. This emperor reigned from 762 (Year of Bao Ying) and 779 (Year of La Li).

r.

[GeneChing]

Interesting hypothesis. I'm curious about the source. r.(shaolin) can you provide some more details on the source?

[r.(shaolin)]

Hi Gene
As I said in my first post above, the source was an article posted on www.aboutshaolin.com and written by their editorial team. I've sent them an email concerning the Chinese character for, Yuan Jue.
The characters for Jue Yuan we use are Jue- meaning, become aware, awaken; and Yuan - meaning, distant remote, far away. Sort of appropriate for Damo :-))))


r.

[Sal Canzonieri]

Damo has been proven in many articles in China to have nothing to do with Shaolin, it wasn't until the 1600s that he was even mentioned in any literature and the whole story about him and Shaolin is from fictional sources. This has been researched throughly by people years ago.

And Jue Yuan is documented to be at Shaolin during the Yuan Dynasty.

[shixingrui]

Amitoufo, The stele was found at Kong Xian Si or Ding Lin Temple as it was also called. It is a stele that has information on it that speaks of Damo and his contribution to Meditation and the way of Chan. It was found during excavation of the Kong Xian Si Last year in March of 2004. According to the Stele the name Yuan Jue was given to Damo from the emperor well after his death. Kong Xian is the site of Damos burial. It is located in San Men Xia County which is near Luoyang.

Peace

[Sal Canzonieri]

Amitoufo, The stele was found at Kong Xian Si or Ding Lin Temple as it was also called. It is a stele that has information on it that speaks of Damo and his contribution to Meditation and the way of Chan. It was found during excavation of the Kong Xian Si Last year in March of 2004. According to the Stele the name Yuan Jue was given to Damo from the emperor well after his death. Kong Xian is the site of Damos burial. It is located in San Men Xia County which is near Luoyang.

Peace

I didnt say he didn't exist. And I should have said that he had nothing to do with Shaolin Martial arts. Even Shaolin admits this today, if you ask them.
The stele said nothing about his contribution to Shaolin martial arts, only his contribution to Buddhism and Chan.

Also, the Jue Yuan I am talking about is not Juan Yue that is Damo.

But, since Monk Jue Yuan (not his birth name) took the 18 Lohan forms and remolded them into a 172 move form, they might have given him a nickname such as Jue Yuan cause it was very close to Yuan Jue, who was the legendary founder of the 18 Lohan style at Shaolin.

But that give me another idea, it wasn't til about 1644 that Damo was started to be seen as the founder of the Lohan style at Shaolin. And this was in a forged preface to a book (there is another thread here that goes into great detail about that).
The person that wrote this fake preface might have confused Monk Jue Yuan, who certainly did work to develop the 18 Lohan style at Shaolin and make it greater, with the name Yuan Jue which the emperor gave to Damo.
he might have thought it was the same person and started all the legends about Damo being part of Shaolin Lohan Quan ancestory.

[r.(shaolin)]

"Monk Jue Yuan,who certainly did work to develop the 18 Lohan style at Shaolin"

As with Damo and Shaolin, Jue Yuan and the development of Shaolin comes from the mid 1600's and is as well, a myth. As with Damo, the Jue Yuan myth is persistent (with variations) among a number of Shaolin traditions. As I say elsewhere, we connect Yue Yuan to Shaolin Wu Xing and to the narrow blade sword expert Bai Yu-Feng and not 18 Lohan style.

r.

shixingrui, thanks for the added info. Can you post the Chinese characters of Yuan Yue
as they appear on the stele?

[Sal Canzonieri]

"Monk Jue Yuan,who certainly did work to develop the 18 Lohan style at Shaolin"

As with Damo and Shaolin, Jue Yuan and the development of Shaolin comes from the mid 1600's and is as well, a myth. As with Damo, the Jue Yuan myth is persistent (with variations) among a number of Shaolin traditions. As I say elsewhere, we connect Yue Yuan to Shaolin Wu Xing and to the narrow blade sword expert Bai Yu-Feng and not 18 Lohan style.

r.

I'm very interested in the legend of Jue Yuan and it being said that he augmented the lohan forms to make the Wu Xing.

So, what more can you tell me about him?
Isn't there records at Shaolin that mention him and his work?

What about the story that Jue Yuan worked with Li Shou and Bai Yu Feng to develop forms. And that he eventually studied internal arts with Bai's teacher Ma Zi Long, at the White Horse temple in Loyang.

[r.(shaolin)]

Based on our tradition the Jue Yuan/Bai Yu Feng event happened sometime during the Jin Dynasty between the latter part of Northern Song Dynasty and the beginning of the Yuan Dynasty. There are other traditions that place this event later, during the Ming Dynasty or even later, during the Qing Dynasty. This speculation is likely based on the observation that earliest recorded version of the myth, is in a document called "Shao lin Si Zhi" by Ye Feng (1623-1687) and others which was written sometime during the mid or late 1600's .

One of the often included features of this myth says that there was an increase in the number of postures from 18 to 72, and then to 173. There is speculation that these 18 postures refers to an 18 hands qigong set / 18 lohan chi gung and that from these 18 postures, 72 movements were developed, etc. In my view this makes absolutely no sense. Others say that it wasn't postures but rather 18 sets that were still practiced at Shaolin and there was an expansion of Shaolin's curriculum to 72 and then to 173 sets.

To put things in perspective, it is well documented that during the Northern Song, hundreds of martial sets were developed both for combat and for entertainment. For at least a hundred years before Jue Yuan and Bai Yufeng's time, sophisticated martial arts was already common. Single sets and sparring sets; barehanded and weapons sets; were commonly practiced by both the military and civilians alike. Fighting competitions, barehanded and with weapons, sponsored by both government and civilians were common. Martial arts were so popular that touring professionals did stage performances featuring wushu. Open-ring competitions had regulations and were organized by government organizations; some were also organized by civilians. It was also during the Song Dynasty, that the famous pledge, "Do not blame anybody if the contestant is beaten to death" was required to be signed by all competitors.
The government competitions resulted in appointments to military posts for winners and were held in the capital as well as in the prefectures. The most famous and largest of these competitions was held in Woo Guo Si (Temple) in Hang Zhou. To say that Shaolin wushu was developed out of 18 chi gung postures by an experienced martial artist coming from this milieu, is not believable.

The Jue Yuan/Bai Yu Feng myth is central to our tradition. Here are some of the features of the myth as per the older generations from out lineage.

Twelve sets were created by Venerable Jue Yuan of Shaolin Monastery and Master Bai Yu Feng, who’s ordination name was Qiu Yue Chan Shi.

Venerable Yuan Jue, of Shaolin Monastery came from Shanxi Province. He studied marital arts at Huashan (Xi Yue) - an art called Bai Ma Quan (White Horse).

Venerable Qiu Yue Chan Shi (Bai Yu Feng) became a librarian at Shaolin Monastery. He originally came from Shensi Province, and while in secular life, became a renowned expert in the narrow blade sword. Before coming to Shaolin Monastery Qiu Yue Chan Shi had been a hermit and obtained the Dao. He was recruited by Jue Yuan to improve Shaolin wushu. Jue Yuan had to beg Bai Yu Feng to come to the mountain because at first he was reluctant. When Venerable Qiu Yue Chan Shi (Bai Yu Feng) took the positon of librarian at Shaolin Monastery he found the records on older methods like Hua Quan revived them. Bai Yu Feng also reveiwed existing Shaolin techniques with Yuan Jue and creating a new system using: wuxing, five fist shapes, eight tetragrams and ten animals. Twelve sets were created before Qui Yue's untimely death.

[shixingrui]

I have not seen the stele up close and personal. I have seen photos only. THe photos are difficult to read from. I am planning a trip sometime at the end of May to visit Kong Xian Si. WHile I am there I will take my own photos and speak to the people that are there and see if I can find some answers there. WHen I do I will post the characters for you all.

Now another bit of information I was speaking with Shi Xing Ming this morning and asked if he could speak with his uncle Shi De Qian about having the name Jue Yuan or Yuan Jue at the temple. The first thing he spoke was that the name Jue Yuan was the name of the character that Jet Li played in the original Shaolin Temple movie.

peace

[RITTERKING1]

Its believed that Damo created shaolin kung fu.many researchers disagree. Like the famous researcher Tang Hao. I read the book of Sal Canzonieri (The Hidden History of the Chinese Internal Martial Arts) and i noticed that the name of Yue Juen (the creator of the shaolin 5 animal style together with Bai Yu Feng and Li Sou) the name given by the Tang dynasty to Damo (Yuen Jue) is but reversed.

If we refer with Damo to Jue Yuen, then the story is true. Jue Yuen collected old forms and lost shaolin knowledge and created the shaolin kung fu curriculum with base the 18 luohan techniques. the mythological Damo also created shaolin kung fu from the 18 luohans.

I noticed also in Sals book that Bai Yu Feng was called Jin na luo. He is the protector deity of shaolin martial arts, and that Li Sou the Dahong style introduced to the temple. The Dahong style included Hong quan, Pao quan and Taizu chang quan. Maybe he introduced the Hong quan style into the temple.

According to Meyr Shahars book Shaolin monastery, the henan shaolin temple was not destroyed during the Qing dynasty, but during the end of the Yuan dynasty by bandits. The Yuan mongols also prohibited the training of martial arts and so it is logical that Jue Yuan lived during the Ming dynasty and his work was to save the lost shaolin knowledge from the shaolin ruins.

All three of them with Jue Yuans 18 basic luohan techniques, created many luohan quan forms and many other styles.they can be called as the shaolin kung fu creators.

[RITTERKING1]

If we think with the same logic that Damo could be Yue Juen, then we can think the same about Qi Jiguang beeing shaolins Taizu.

Its said that abbot Fu Yu invited 16 or 18 masters to shaolin and added their arts into the shaolin curriculum. Qi Jiguang collected 2 stances from 16 styles and created his 32 posture tai zu form. a taizu (great ancestor) creating a taizu form.

Yu Dayou visited the temple and he didnt found good fighters as he said. he took two monks with him and teached them martial arts.the monks brought this arts then back and teached the other monks.Like the Song dynasty Taizu that send some of his generals to shaolin to teach the monks.

[David Jamieson]

The Shaolin Monastery was burned down 3 times in total and deserted in the era just prior to the rise of communism in China.

Bodhidharma is attributed with Wu Qin Xi (5 animal frolics) but was historically an itinerant monk bringing Buddhism to China in the 5th century CE.
It's possible he never existed as in that time, proliferators of ideas and such often gave attribution to a teacher despite their own creation of the thing they are transmitting.

The more important thing that Bodhidharma brought to Shaolin was ch'an (zen) which was born out of the then new Mahayana Buddhism and in particular the Lankavatara sutra.

[RITTERKING1]

In Sals book i read that Bai Yu Feng was called Jin na luo.Is that true?Can you tell me the source describing this Sal?Jin na luo is a mystery. he is the martial arts saint of the shaolin temple. Could Bai Yu Feng be this saint?that teached the monks their martial arts?

Which were Jue Yuans basic 18 luohan? are there any clues?if not can we guess?
Jue Yuan was a former soldier.also his style should be a hard one.his techniques must be the most common techniques used in many styles. I believe that they should look like Cai families Hua quans 18 luohan shi ba shou form. This was the basis form of the 18 luohan forms. We can find this techniques in the 18 luohan forms.

And whats about the 18 luohan form as a qigong set.maybe Jue Yuan had a hard 18 luohan form and Bai Yu Feng created an other softer qigong 18 luohan form.

[GeneChing]

Can you tell me the source describing this Sal?
Sal hasn't logged on here in two years. Perhaps he's lurking...


IJin na luo is a mystery. he is the martial arts saint of the shaolin temple.
Many connect Jinnaluo to Vajrapani. You've read this, right? Meat, Wine, and Fighting Monks: Did Shaolin Monks breach Buddhist Dietary Regulations? (http://www.kungfumagazine.com/ezine/article.php?article=521) by Meir Shahar.

[RITTERKING1]

Sal hasn't logged on here in two years. Perhaps he's lurking...


Many connect Jinnaluo to Vajrapani. You've read this, right? Meat, Wine, and Fighting Monks: Did Shaolin Monks breach Buddhist Dietary Regulations? (http://www.kungfumagazine.com/ezine/article.php?article=521) by Meir Shahar.

No. I just read it.Thank you Gene!

[GeneChing]

No. I just read it.Thank you Gene! Sure. Glad you found it worthy of the read.

Have you read Professor Shahar's book The Shaolin Monastery: History, Religion, and the Chinese Martial Arts (http://www.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?49464-The-Shaolin-Monastery-History-Religion-and-the-Chinese-Martial-Arts-by-Meir-Shahar)? That article was an excerpt, an early draft that he permitted us to publish prior to the publication of his book. If you're looking into Shaolin history, Meir's book is a must read.

[David Jamieson]

^ I concur.

Starting with Shahars book led me down another path to find the myth of hercules may have had some meat on it's bones.
Fascinating stuff, Vajrapani = Hercules, protector of the Buddha!
10281

2nd century CE depiction currently in the BM.