SNT w/weights?

[draggin dragon]

I'm sure this isn't an original idea. For all I know it is common practice in WC. I am only a beginner.

What is the advisibility of using weights while doing SNT? Wrist weights that would'nt interfere with hand movements. What would be the benefits vs. the negative consequences, if any?

Thank You.

[AmanuJRY]

The only thing I can say is, IMHO, the 'pressure' the weights create is different than the 'pressure' that is experienced in chi sau, so I don't believe you are really gaining anything. General fitness and that kind of weight training is the best in that regard. In relation to technique, the lop-sau, poon-sau and other chi sau related drills (or, to say just chi sau) should prove more than enough to develop technique specific endurance.
Also, IMO, the forms are not nessisarily meant for strength development, rather they are more for learning basic positions, coordination, and technical development. Having weights could ingrain a bad habit of being tense when you want to be *relaxed* or *soft*.

[anerlich]

I think you would want to use wrist weights, or the old-style Kung fu rings around the forearms. That would make some movements difficult (most notably the "wipe-off's" at the end of the form), but less so I think than holding little dumbells or similar.

You don't want to go too hard and fast due to the possibility of hyperextension injuries. I don't think you'd want to do it exclusively, either.

Personally, I doubt that this would do much to improve you technique, and IMO there are better ways to improve muscular strength and endurance.

When I was heavily into the WC weapons, I tried to work out how to do all the empty hand forms with butterfly swords, sticks and the pole - an interesting exercise for its own sake but also developing attributes more directly attributable to WC.

Some people scoff at punching with weights, others swear by it. Why not try it out for a month or so and see if it helps or not? Not much of a downside with that approach.

[RedJunkRebel]

Yip Man is known to have used the Kung Fu rings at times when practicing SNT. Wrist weights sound like a great idea. Try going through the form once with them on and then once without and feel how light and quick your hands feel with out them.

[jonp]

personally i wouldnt even go there.

you wanna train with weights, train with weights, you wanna train forms, train forms.

if something presses down on your arm you huen round it, training with a weight would give you this impulse continually.

probably screw with your balance too.

theres so much to work on within the forms anyway i dont see why you would want to add another thing.

suppliment your forms practice with some compound exercises, ie deadlifts and squats.

imo

peace

[t_niehoff]

In my view, the sets (like SNT) are generally not for training but are for learning and for teaching.

[Vajramusti]

Draggin dragon- Curious- do you havea wing chun teacher?

Whay does he say? I think that the use of weights in slt defeats the purposes of the slt.

Using weights separately- is another matter because
the purpose would likely be different--- strength, therapy etc.

[couch]

I really think that it has to do with what your kwoon's SNT is trying to develop.

As Vajramusti said, talk to your Sifu.

I know that in my kwoon, my Sifu likes us to perform the SNT without any tension whatsoever. Like an isotonic movement.

But another kwoon's WC that I practised wanted constant forward pressure.

See what the goal of your SNT is and go from there. I also agree with AmanuJRY in that in Chi Sao and sparring, energies may feel a bit messed up after having those weights on.

Good luck in your search,
Couch

[draggin dragon]

Yes, I have a Sifu & I will be sure to seek his guidance before attempting anything like this. I was just curious to get opinions & you all have supplied a lot of good ones.

Thanks again.

[old jong]

Originally posted by t_niehoff
In my view, the sets (like SNT) are generally not for training but are for learning and for teaching.

Again,that explains a lot!

[dfl]

Originally posted by t_niehoff
In my view, the sets (like SNT) are generally not for training but are for learning and for teaching.

That's an interesting viewpoint. Am I correct to assume that after you have learned from the sets, you "discard the useless" and just skip to the "pressure testing" as your main training methodology?
Do you mind elaborating on what it is you learn from the sets and what you teach with them?

[Matrix]

Originally posted by RedJunkRebel
Yip Man is known to have used the Kung Fu rings at times when practicing SNT.

[Vajramusti]

Matrix-

as discussed before someone- possibly Bruce Lee had given him those rings and he just posed with them.

No one that I know who knew him well have suggested to date that he used them for slt.

One cam use many things as supplements or demonstrating something. Hung Gar, a much harder style, uses those rings for some drills.

[Matrix]

Joy,

Sorry, I didn't see that post.

[Vajramusti]

Someone with photo shop skills had piled on even more rings on his hands!!
Cant believe everything that one sees or hears!

[Matrix]

Originally posted by Vajramusti
Cant believe everything that one sees or hears! ......or reads. ;)

[Mark Rasmus]

Originally posted by t_niehoff
In my view, the sets (like SNT) are generally not for training but are for learning and for teaching.

Hi Terence,

Here are a couple questions?
1. I wonder why Yip Man is said to have taken 1 hour to do
his Sil Lim Tao form?
2. Why do so many people consider the praying thice to Buddha section of Sil Lim Tao to be a chi kung exercise.
Just another View
Mark Rasmus

http://au.geocities.com/markrasmus/retreat.html

[45degree fist]

if your just starting, SNT is about self awarness. body lines, reference points and basic WC motions. forget about energy right now

[John Weiland]

Originally posted by draggin dragon
I'm sure this isn't an original idea. For all I know it is common practice in WC. I am only a beginner.

What is the advisibility of using weights while doing SNT? Wrist weights that would'nt interfere with hand movements. What would be the benefits vs. the negative consequences, if any?

Thank You.
This doesn't really apply to standing in SLT, but there's a savvy five-year student in my school who sometimes uses weights on his ankles when he practices Wing Chun. Just an option if you'd like to give it a try.

To me, it brings to mind the old joke:

"Why are you hitting yourself in the head?"

"It feels great when you stop."

Regards

[AmanuJRY]

Ankle weights is good practice, IMO. I've used them in practicing leg techniques.

[Mark Rasmus]

Originally posted by 45degree fist
if your just starting, SNT is about self awarness. body lines, reference points and basic WC motions. forget about energy right now


I agree with you here. My take on it is that breath meditation is the theme of the form while:
1. Discern and relax the bone alignment. (through the movements)
2. Discern and relax the joints and tendons. (through the movements)
3. Discern and relax the fascia and skin surface. (through the movements)
4. Discern and relax through the hairs on your skin.(through the movements)

This calms and relaxes the physical fabrications
Then move onto discerning the bodies energy field in several stages. Then discern the states of mind which I break into the four Buddhist form mindstate(Jhanas) and four formless mindstates.
All these are stages of my approach to refining SLT with breath meditation as its theme. I believe that the breath connects mind energy and body together to work as one unit.
Here is a sutra from the Buddhist Canon on breath meditation. I encorporate the above exercises into the first four points listed below. There is a bit of synthesizing to make it work but the theme is the same. The latter points (4-16)refer to mind states. They are further defined in other sutras which need to be cross referenced to be understood. Ultimately it leads to deeper levels of awareness and body connection within yourself and your environment.
Mark Rasmus


Breath Meditaton
.
"Now how is mindfulness of in-&-out breathing developed & pursued so as to bring the four frames of reference to their culmination?

"There is the case where a monk, having gone to the wilderness, to the shade of a tree, or to an empty building, sits down folding his legs crosswise, holding his body erect, and setting mindfulness to the fore. Always mindful, he breathes in; mindful he breathes out.

"[1] Breathing in long, he discerns that he is breathing in long; or breathing out long, he discerns that he is breathing out long. [2] Or breathing in short, he discerns that he is breathing in short; or breathing out short, he discerns that he is breathing out short. [3] He trains himself to breathe in sensitive to the entire body, and to breathe out sensitive to the entire body. [4] He trains himself to breathe in calming the bodily processes, and to breathe out calming the bodily processes.

"[5] He trains himself to breathe in sensitive to rapture, and to breathe out sensitive to rapture. [6] He trains himself to breathe in sensitive to pleasure, and to breathe out sensitive to pleasure. [7] He trains himself to breathe in sensitive to mental processes, and to breathe out sensitive to mental processes. [8] He trains himself to breathe in calming mental processes, and to breathe out calming mental processes.

"[9] He trains himself to breathe in sensitive to the mind, and to breathe out sensitive to the mind. [10] He trains himself to breathe in satisfying the mind, and to breathe out satisfying the mind. [11] He trains himself to breathe in steadying the mind, and to breathe out steadying the mind. [12] He trains himself to breathe in releasing the mind, and to breathe out releasing the mind.

"[13] He trains himself to breathe in focusing on inconstancy, and to breathe out focusing on inconstancy. [14] He trains himself to breathe in focusing on dispassion [literally, fading], and to breathe out focusing on dispassion. [15] He trains himself to breathe in focusing on cessation, and to breathe out focusing on cessation. [16] He trains himself to breathe in focusing on relinquishment, and to breathe out focusing on relinquishment.

http://au.geocities.com/markrasmus/retreat.html

[kungfu cowboy]

I wonder if a weighted vest would help training the legs and stance. The weight would be just around your core, like you just weighed more. Putting anything on your arms sounds like a real bad idea.

[t_niehoff]

Mark Rasmus wrote:

Hi Terence,

Here are a couple questions?
1. I wonder why Yip Man is said to have taken 1 hour to do
his Sil Lim Tao form?

**The operative word here is "said" -- there are lots of stories, lots of rumors, and folks use these to promote their views. And even if it is true, how can we say if there were benefits from doing that? I will concede that a set can -- not that it should or is best used this way -- be used as a means for solo training some limited aspects . For example, one can focus on performing the set quickly to promote speed (like YKS). But IME these things are better developed in other ways. As I said, the linked sets are principally learning/teaching devices, and they're used for that alone.

2. Why do so many people consider the praying thice to Buddha section of Sil Lim Tao to be a chi kung exercise.

**Anything can be made into a hei gung exercise if that's what someone wants to do. Of course, if one's objective is to develop fighitng skill hei gung is a waste of time, but that's another issue.

Just another View

**WCK carries a lot of "stories" and cultural baggage. Most of that just gets in the way of development.

--------------

dfl wrote:

That's an interesting viewpoint. Am I correct to assume that after you have learned from the sets, you "discard the useless" and just skip to the "pressure testing" as your main training methodology?
Do you mind elaborating on what it is you learn from the sets and what you teach with them

**The linked sets contain the core and derivative (from that core) movements and aspects of WCK's fighting method. I could choreograph a linked set that contains the core movements of western boxing arranged thematically, etc. in much the same way as WCK. In fact, if boxing were a chinese martial art, that's exactly what someone in the past would have done. And then there would be all those folks that would believe that the linked boxing set contained some magical training instead of just being a means to preserve and teach those core aspects. (And they'd make snotty remarks like Old Jong's -- "that explains a lot" -- beleiving as they do that somehow doing a prearranged pattern of boxing movements gave them some skill.).

**The answer to your question is that everytime I move, I do the forms, not the choreographed sequence that we call SNT, CK, BJ, but those elements that make up the linked sets. Performing a prearranged, linked sequence of movements is a great way to learn and preserve; it's not a very good way to develop any skill.

[AmanuJRY]

Originally posted by kungfu cowboy
I wonder if a weighted vest would help training the legs and stance. The weight would be just around your core, like you just weighed more. Putting anything on your arms sounds like a real bad idea.

Yeah, I have a 60 lb. weighted vest. It does help train the legs (imagine being 60 lbs. heavier, and then suddenly losing it), but It's no replacement for good weight training.

[anerlich]

Ankle weights is good practice, IMO. I've used them in practicing leg techniques.

Don't try running with them on (bad for your gait, increased risk of injury) or fast kicks (risk of hyperextension injuries).

Slow kicks with ankle weights are a great exercise.

[Mark Rasmus]

Originally posted by t_niehoff
**The operative word here is "said" -- there are lots of stories, lots of rumors, and folks use these to promote their views. And even if it is true, how can we say if there were benefits from doing that? I will concede that a set can -- not that it should or is best used this way -- be used as a means for solo training some limited aspects . For example, one can focus on performing the set quickly to promote speed (like YKS). But IME these things are better developed in other ways. As I said, the linked sets are principally learning/teaching devices, and they're used for that alone.

Hi Terence,
You make good points. I have often thought of scrapping the forms and just teaching the movments and theories in stages as I feel there are better ways to practice chi kung and develop skill than in the form. But at the same time I want to hold some respect for the tradition.


Originally posted by t_niehoff

**Anything can be made into a hei gung exercise if that's what someone wants to do. Of course, if one's objective is to develop fighitng skill hei gung is a waste of time, but that's another issue.

There are some top fighters from the last generation who would not agree. Look at Master Huang Sheng Shyan for example. A reknowned Taiji master. He took on dozens of challenge matches, undefeated. When he was sixty he stepped in the ring with the Asian heavy weight wrestling champion and made him look like an idiot. I have a video of him standing a meter or so away from a person and then lifting his hands up and the person lifts off their feet and sling shots across the room, then another guy runs at him to receive the same and then a third person gets shot across the room, no physical bridge made.
Master Ma from Wu style did the same demo many times.
The Aikido founder is "said" to have done the same.
I have seen dozens of videos of unknown masters throwing groups of people around (strangers) without bridge contact. A tv station challeneged one guy to prove it wasnt hypnosis, so they took him too the zoo, he pushed over an elephant with out bridge contact.
The list and "stories" go on and on, so to put chi kung down is closing the door to the pinnacle of fighting skill.
Unfortunately to meet a qualified person is rare, but the basic tools of Chi kung are in Wing Chun never the less.
Just another View
Mark Rasmus

http://au.geocities.com/markrasmus/retreat.html

[AmanuJRY]

Originally posted by anerlich
Don't try running with them on (bad for your gait, increased risk of injury) or fast kicks (risk of hyperextension injuries).

Slow kicks with ankle weights are a great exercise.

Nothing like that. Just leg-lifts in kicking/intercepting shapes (not kicking), holding for balance, and circle and other stepping, etc. Although, running with the vest reminds me of boot camp.

[Matrix]

Originally posted by Mark Rasmus
I have often thought of scrapping the forms and just teaching the movments and theories in stages as I feel there are better ways to practice chi kung and develop skill than in the form. But at the same time I want to hold some respect for the tradition. Mark,
I think you would be doing your students a huge dis-service by removing the forms from Wing Chun training. It's more than tradition, IMO.

Just one person's opinion.

[Ultimatewingchun]

Agree with Bill 100% on this...

The forms are invaluable as a reference point to return to now and again...

and SLT does provide a breathing, mental focusing, chi development exercise that also reviews quite a bit of the essential moves and principles within the system.

We do SLT at 2 out of the three classes that I teach per week.

I never regret it.

[Matrix]

Victor,

Thanks for the confirmation.
We usually start each class with SLT, but it's done fairly quickly - about 5 minutes or so. We are expected to train the forms on our own time. Class time is best used in working with a partner.

Like you, I never regret time spent on forms.
There's a lot more to them than may be immediately apparent.

[Ultimatewingchun]

We do the same thing, Bill.

About 5 minutes on SLT.

Occasionally the more advanced students (and myself) do chum kiu or bil jee instead.

[RedJunkRebel]

Originally posted by Matrix
I never regret time spent on forms.
There's a lot more to them than may be immediately apparent. I agree.

The better you are at rooting, power generation and relaxation during your forms, the better tools you develop for its application with a partner.

[t_niehoff]

Mark Rasmus wrote:

There are some top fighters from the last generation who would not agree.

**No doubt that's true. Fighters from previous times believed all kinds of things, but that doesn't make them true.

Look at Master Huang Sheng Shyan for example. A reknowned Taiji master. He took on dozens of challenge matches, undefeated. When he was sixty he stepped in the ring with the Asian heavy weight wrestling champion and made him look like an idiot. I have a video of him standing a meter or so away from a person and then lifting his hands up and the person lifts off their feet and sling shots across the room, then another guy runs at him to receive the same and then a third person gets shot across the room, no physical bridge made.
Master Ma from Wu style did the same demo many times.
The Aikido founder is "said" to have done the same.
I have seen dozens of videos of unknown masters throwing groups of people around (strangers) without bridge contact. A tv station challeneged one guy to prove it wasnt hypnosis, so they took him too the zoo, he pushed over an elephant with out bridge contact.
The list and "stories" go on and on, so to put chi kung down is closing the door to the pinnacle of fighting skill.
Unfortunately to meet a qualified person is rare, but the basic tools of Chi kung are in Wing Chun never the less.

**This stuff (empty power) is pure nonsense. Breathing, coordinating it with our physical actions, using it to affect our mental state, etc. are all important in the context of fighting -- but you'll only get that from fighting, not from hei gung exercises (which is just one more way theoreticians try to turn fighitng methods into something else).

Just another View

**I'm not interested in views; I'm interested in evidence. Independently verifiable evidence.

[Kevin Bell]

Mark Rasmus:

[[Look at Master Huang Sheng Shyan for example. A reknowned Taiji master. He took on dozens of challenge matches, undefeated. When he was sixty he stepped in the ring with the Asian heavy weight wrestling champion and made him look like an idiot. I have a video of him standing a meter or so away from a person and then lifting his hands up and the person lifts off their feet and sling shots across the room, then another guy runs at him to receive the same and then a third person gets shot across the room, no physical bridge made.
Master Ma from Wu style did the same demo many times.
The Aikido founder is "said" to have done the same.
I have seen dozens of videos of unknown masters throwing groups of people around (strangers) without bridge contact. A tv station challeneged one guy to prove it wasnt hypnosis, so they took him too the zoo, he pushed over an elephant with out bridge contact.
The list and "stories" go on and on, so to put chi kung down is closing the door to the pinnacle of fighting skill.
Unfortunately to meet a qualified person is rare, but the basic tools of Chi kung are in Wing Chun never the less.]]

Lets just say a guy comes home finds one of these "Masters" in bed with his women would this mysterious power they have stop the other guy playing football with their head?? Call me a sceptic by all means but i dont think so!!!!

I met one of those guys who said he could punch me 30 something feet with his special power. That was before we gloved up to move around and i knocked him spark out. Man, even i was embarressed.

[Mark Rasmus]

Originally posted by t_niehoff


**This stuff (empty power) is pure nonsense. Breathing, coordinating it with our physical actions, using it to affect our mental state, etc. are all important in the context of fighting -- but you'll only get that from fighting, not from hei gung exercises (which is just one more way theoreticians try to turn fighitng methods into something else).

Just another View

**I'm not interested in views; I'm interested in evidence. Independently verifiable evidence.

Hi Terence

The people I mentioned above, did prove themselves and their methods. To say their skills are pure nonsense after having proved themselves on dozens of occasions in challenges and demos is well, "JUST JOUR VIEW".

I actually appreciate you posts very much, as you have knack of getting to the point of things, but this time I think you missed the point. But everyone has their own path.

Best to you

Mark Rasmus

[t_niehoff]

Mark,

Stories abound in martial arts, and lots of them are fantastic. Sure some people caught fish back in the day, but these fish continue to grow via the retelling into enormous proportions. It's the same with the HK "rooftop fights"; many have mythologized them into epic proportions. When we look at videos of those fights, however, we don't see great skill demonstrated, rather just a bunch of high-school aged kids (for the most part) with rather mundane skill/attributes. From what I've seen of these "masters" (and I've seen some of these videos you're talking about and some others you may not have seen), IMO folks back in the day, including the famous Shaloin monks, the great masters we revere, etc. were in reality not all that good by today's standards. They were just better than the competition (which stunk by today's standards).

Things like Kong Jing (empty power) simply defy the laws of physics (in other words, such things are impossible) and reflect the greatest problem with asian martial arts: magical thinking.
(

[Mark Rasmus]

Originally posted by t_niehoff
Things like Kong Jing (empty power) simply defy the laws of physics (in other words, such things are impossible) and reflect the greatest problem with asian martial arts: magical thinking.
(

Hi Terence,
There are too many examples of Kong Jing out there for me to agree that it is impossible. I am actually a very skeptical person and I think 9 out of 10 demos are mental programming. Its the 1 out of 10 that is unexplained.

Today is my last day on the net for a while.
I leave to Australia for a 7 week retreat tommorrow.
look forward to reading your future posts when I get back.
Best to You,
Mark Rasmus