Mantis Dart throwing

[pest]

Reading some history on mantis cave and came across Ma Han Qing, found him under "Tai Ji Mei Hua Tang Lang (Supreme Plum Flower Praying Mantis Boxing)"

It mentions he learned the art of dart throwing and I was curious if that is still being taught in the mantis world today. Dose anyone have some info on this?

(If anyone wants the website ... http://www.geocities.com/mantiscave/mahan.htm)

~Pest

[Three Harmonies]

Pest,
Greetings. I am a disciple of Hu Xi Lin, who in turn was a disciple of 30 years to Ma Han Qin Laoshi. I have spoken with both my teacher and my kung fu uncle Ilya Profatilov Laoshi regarding this matter, and it was not in Ma Laoshis Mantis training where he learned dart throwing (Fei Chang if I remember right). Ma Laoshi was already an accomplished Cha Quan master by the time he started learning Mantis. So the darts are from the Muslim long fist style.
Hope this helps.

Cheers
Jake :D

[Oso]

Is this a rope dart or a throwing dart?

[Three Harmonies]

Throwing dart. Like little Shuriken (Ninja Stars). Basically they look like mini spear heads with a tassle on them.
But keep in mind what happened to Butter on Southpark when the boys started ****ing around with sharp objects!! :D

Cheers
Jake :cool:

[pest]

Thanks everyone for the quick responce.

Three Harmonies, it helps alot thank you :D. Was dart throwing passed down in your family?

Is there any ranged weapons taught traditionaly in mantis?

Thanks again :D
~Pest

[mantis108]

Well, I have an old article from the "New Martial Hero" magazine about dart throwing and rope dart of CCK TCPM. I think these were "voccational" skills. Mostly, they are for people who work in the convey escort services.

I will post the article on my upcoming website as a tribute to the late Sifu Kwong Kwan Wei who was featured in it as well. Unfortunately it is entirely in Chinese with a few pictures. I will try to do a translation of it.

Mantis108

[Oso]

Interesting.

I like throwing things. played w/ stars and spikes but never tassled darts. Anyone got a good source?

Also, were these considered distractions or were they employed for maiming or killing?

[tanglang69]

this is a test post. having problems with my computer.

[yu shan]

Nice avatar tanglang69.

[tanglang69]

thanks sifu,

I am trying to make it a bit clearer, but at 50 x 50 pixels, oh boy.

See you soon.

Oved
tanglang69:D

[Oso]

so, is this dart thrown from the palm, point forward with the tassle acting as fletching (stabilizing it's flight)?

I've tossed straight spikes w/ no tassle/fletching but there is a limit to maximum range based on spike weight and length.

Does anyone know maximum ranges or anything?

Robert, I know you have talked about the use of the bow tactically before....any thoughts here?

[mantis108]

The dart is considered a concealed weapon. So it usually is about palm size so that your palm can easily hide it. In the old days, people hide them in their belts or sashs. Sometime you would see people that carried a small shoulder bag kind of like the monk's bag these day but smaller. That's the bag for the "Biao".

In our style's weapon forms, there is often an ending move that is actually a representation of the dart throwing. It is to mian and/or kill when you are in a jam.

These days, I play dart throwing (usually with a ball point pen) with weapon sparring (Nunchuku mostly) with my students. We use foam Nunchukus. The rule is simple: you may use your dart (ball point pen) which is tucked in your belt if you lost you weapon or your weapon is tangled up with your opponents (quicker draw usually wins). It would consider a draw if you end the game with the dart hit. You win by disarming your opponent's weapon and/or dodge the dart. A lot of times, the dart never hits the target because of over excitment or the opponent see you throwing (telegraphing to much). It's a lot of fun and teaches quick decision making and reflects.

Here's a tip: I am a lefty so I use my right to hold my weapon and throw the dart with my left. Sometimes I reverse that. It confuses the he!! out of the guys. lol... :D

Warm regards

Mantis108

[Oso]

ok, so 'maim and kill'

how do you see that as plausible?

targets? if so, which ones.

poisen?

insane strength allowing deep penetration to vitals?

The philosophy I've 'grown up' with is that stars/spikes/darts or nuisance weapons only meant for distraction or at most to be somewhat debilitating to vision or mobility.

I'm not opposed to the thought of killing w/ a spike but the only one I've ever used that I thought was potentially lethal was an 8" round punch that we sharpened into points. they weighed around 4oz or so (that's pretty heavy considering). At 10' or less I could get it to fully penetrate 1/2" pine plywood.

so, I'm very curious about the methodology and the technology of these spikes of old.


btw, I just figured out why you use 'warm regards' all the time...wishfull thinking :p

[mantis108]

Well, the thing with darts and projectile weapons is that they are more efficient if they hit vital targets. It is said that a person can normally withstand 6 to 7 bullet shots as long as no vital points are hit. Projectiles that are launched by hand aren't going to be as powerful as bullets. But pain is pain. A person who is pumped or intoxicated will have a higher threshold for pain anyway. So in that sense, yes the darts would function no more than a nuisance much less the punches on the ground. BTW, speed kills and it a matter of where do you hit.

Here's the thing, you are not supposed to relie on the darts but you must have faith that it will be able to do serious harm to the opponent. That's the mindset of using weapons like that IMHO. If your darts only delay or distract your opponent, by all means go in with the bare hands to finish the job. It's not necessarily be all end all tool. At least, I don't see it as such. It gives you an edge and it could be a matter of life and death in certain cases. That happened to GM Chiu. It's like Mushasi. Use the short sword if you have to. Do whatever it take to save yourself.

I don't like weapon myself (too bloody and too ulgy if hurt). But it's part of the tradition, so we still try our best to keep up. Other than that, I like hand to hand.

Warm regards

Robert

PS now I really have to send my ninjas after you since you have decipher my secrect(s). ;) lol....

[EarthDragon]

Andy Miles. you replied YES, then posted 8step.com?????? what does that site have to do with the topic for this thread????
just curious

[pest]

Mantis108, I liked that description. Would it be fair to say dust or powders could function the same way as darts could for distractions? could you substitute the dart/projectile for dust?

I heard once weapons are just extentions of our bodies, would ranged weapons fall into this description aswell?

~Pest

[BeiTangLang]

Originally posted by pest
Mantis108, I liked that description. Would it be fair to say dust or powders could function the same way as darts could for distractions? could you substitute the dart/projectile for dust?

I heard once weapons are just extentions of our bodies, would ranged weapons fall into this description aswell?

~Pest

Weaopns are indeed just extensions of the body,....however;
A dart, knive sword or any other "hard" weapon would be more effective than powders or dusts....
Imagine your fist hitting a target-----directed weapon, hit or miss. Very little chance of hitting yourself.
Imagine a f@rt----a generaly directed substance that may effect you as well as your target. You may in fact get yourself with such a substance as well as your enemy. Stay up-wind!; Use with caution! LOL!

[pest]

Originally posted by BeiTangLang

Imagine a f@rt----a generaly directed substance that may effect you as well as your target. You may in fact get yourself with such a substance as well as your enemy. Stay up-wind!; Use with caution! LOL!

good point!

~pest

[tanglang69]

As a Baton and Pepper Spray instructor for the Border Patrol, I always have to point out to the agents that when they use their spray, they have to be aware of wind direction. Never spray upwind or else. Same thing with the dust.

Well gotta go.

Oved