Piercing Power

[Yaksha]

the less surface area you contact, and shorter the amout of time during contact, the more the force unfolds into the opponet rather than bouncing back into your arm, and the more force delivered in that short amount of time, the more piercing power.

Think of a wild cat pouncing, a thunderbolt striking, or a wave crashing into a rock. That is the manner in which you have to move your body to strike in that way. You must be relaxed until you make contact, THEN you deliver force. Its like using a yo-yo or cracking a whip. The same kind of attitudes and reflexes involved.

Would you say that is an accurate description of piercing power?

[Vajramusti]

Very possibly

[t_niehoff]

In my view WCK has more than 1 type of punch, and each of those has different (body)mechanics that naturally produces different results/effects on the target. And, the method (the strategic battleplan or approach to fighting) of WCK is different than boxing's, so naturally the WCK tools (used to implement that method) will be different than boxing's tools (though there may be some things that are similar).

Since you seem to be talking about the jik chung choi, instead of the esoteric descriptions I think it more productive to focus on results (is it working?). For example, the airshield test -- stand in YJKYM and have a training partner holding an airshield on his chest run toward you from across the room (keeping his chest facing you for target value). When he comes into range, strike the shield with your jik chung choi (punch) without stepping (remaining in YJKYM) or turning. This tests your basic punch's mechanics, and you'll know if you have the (body)mechanics down or not -- if you have the mechanics working then you should remain rooted (stationary) while your opponent should not only be stopped cold (like he ran into a wall) but actually knocked sharply backward with a jolt that feels like it has penetrated (*piercing power*) through the airshield; if you don't have the mechanics, your punch will collapse or you'll be knocked backward or otherwise fail.

There's no value in talking about "cracking the whip" or "cat pouncing" and things like that IME.

[Nick Forrer]

Here are some notes I jotted down recently about the wc punch.

How is power generated?

a) from the local muscles in the arm (extending)

b) from the torque of the waist (turning)

c) From the forward motion of the body (stepping)

Everytime you hit your punch should have these 3 elements involved. In fact even when you punch whilst stepping back these elements are involved since c) is created by your opponents forward step

However all these elements can be found in a boxing punch so what distinguishes the wc punch?

- Ease with which it can be recycled (less chambering).

- Proximity to the target ( hands already halfway extended),

- elbow down (this creates a connection with the stance, meaning that all the returning force upon impact is channelled down through your stance into the ground and back out again, creating a force feedback loop that amplifies your pre-existing power)

- elbow rising as it goes forward, point of impact being short of the complete range of motion, which finishes beyond the target (thus you are punching through them and not at them (this helps uproot the target)).

[marcus_pasram]

Hey Yaksha,

I don't know about piercing power, but the quantity of Force transferred to your opponent will equal the quantity of force transferred back to you at the point of contact. No matter how quickly you hit, you can't get around that physical law.

Marcus


Originally posted by Yaksha
the less surface area you contact, and shorter the amout of time during contact, the more the force unfolds into the opponet rather than bouncing back into your arm, and the more force delivered in that short amount of time, the more piercing power.

Think of a wild cat pouncing, a thunderbolt striking, or a wave crashing into a rock. That is the manner in which you have to move your body to strike in that way. You must be relaxed until you make contact, THEN you deliver force. Its like using a yo-yo or cracking a whip. The same kind of attitudes and reflexes involved.

Would you say that is an accurate description of piercing power?

[IRONMONK]

hi guys ,

when you punch someone do u hit straight through (parallel to the ground) or do you hit at an angle upward/downwards into your opponent?

[Simon Mc]

"the quantity of Force transferred to your opponent will equal the quantity of force transferred back to you at the point of contact. No matter how quickly you hit, you can't get around that physical law"

This is an interesting point an I'm interested if it's accurate or not. I'd like to say that I'm definitely not a scientist in any way and have only a basic knowledge of Newtons laws regarding the conservation of momentum. And life.

His Second law states basically that F=MA and the third law states that "every action has an equal and opposite reaction".

From my study of Mechanics I would say that *some* force is transferred back to the attacker, but depending on the strike on your opponent (in this cause I'll pressume "piercing" refers to seeking to go through your opponent) the rest should be dissapated by the displacement of your opponent.

In real life terms, the effects of a car crash would illustrate my point - the car that gets hit gets wrote off and the bumper only takes marginal damage - (unless it's a head on but I'm visualising a moving body striking a stationary one).

This is a topic that interests me, particulary the point already raised of body unity. I noticed that my seniors could displace me much easier / further with their chain punches whilst it was a struggle to move them with mine. It's definitely one of many things I'm looking of working on.

For me the ultimate display of this kind of blow is Brad Pitt's performance on the boxer at the gypsy site.Classic. I think I'm right that Geoff Thompson also works on the generation of a "one hit" powerful pre-emptive strike but I may be digressing. So I'll end.

Simon.

Xin Nian Kuai le!

[Nick Forrer]

A good quote from aristotle i found recently

'The animal that moves does so by pushing against that which is beneath it'.

[dej2]

I agree with t_niehoff

There are mulitple types of Wing Chun punches.

* 1. chair kuen = pulling vertical punch
* 2. chaap kuen = low punch

Faan kuen = circling punch either inside or outside
* 3. ngoi faan kuen = inside whip punch
* 4. hoi faan kuen = outside whip punch

* 5. doi gok kuen = diagonal punch
* 6. chour kuen = hammerfist
* 7. joong-lo kuen = drilling punch

Chun geng kuen= one inch punch

Fung ngan kuen or fung an kuen = phoenix eye punch with the index knuckle forward

Lin wan kuen = continuous chain punching


Here is a section on punching from the Wing Chun Archives web site.

http://www.wingchunkuen.com/why/articles/contemporary/gordon_punching.html

Eight Fists
The most used and recognized Wing Chun punch is the pulling vertical punch "chair kuen". It is said that all other punches are a variation based on this simple yet very important punch. The proper structure is by holding the fist vertical, the whole fist should make contact with the intended target, with the bottom three knuckles emphasized. By holding the fist in a vertical position, the muscles in the arm are kept in their most relaxed and natural position. This position also considers the skeletal structure of the arm. Basically, the skeletal alignment is very strong structurally while the muscles are being kept relaxed, allowing for fast punches with the explosive release of energy into the opponent. The punch explodes forward like a bullet. The elbow is forced inward and down by keeping the fist vertical, this position promotes trapping, a method used in conjunction with the attacking hand. The elbow should work like a piston pushing and pulling the fist to its proper placement, along the elbow line. The rear elbow's position also helps to defend against mid level body attacks. Even though this punch travels in a straight line, it contains drilling movement, without this the punch is dead, not to mention there a greater possibility of damaging the elbow. This punch is considered an uprooting technique because of the rising path it travels. It starts at the height of the sternum and drills upward until the motion completes at shoulder height, thus, uprooting the opponent if properly placed. When the fist is in the rear position, do not bend the wrist, keep it in the same position as it would be when extended.

Drilling punch "joung-lo kuen" is a mid level punch that travels down the centerline and stops with the elbow about a fist away from the practitioners own body with palm facing upward. This punch drills forward and makes contact with the entire fist, while focusing on the front two knuckles because of the angle of the fist. This punch has forward energy with a slight upward drill; it may also be used similar to a boxer's uppercut. Don't extend this punch; keep it close to the body and bring your body to the target.

Low punch "chaap kuen" is a straight punch focused at a low-level area. The entire fist makes contact while the focus is on the first two knuckles. The angle of the fist is almost horizontal. A low vertical punch would make contact with the index finger first, putting the wrist in a vulnerable position. While practicing this punch, it should be aimed forward, not to the floor. Again, like all the punches, there must be drilling motion within this punch.

Inside whipping punch "ngoi faan kuen" is a straight punch that starts with a small circle which travels to a straight line. This punch travels on the centerline and is used to move around something in its path with a circular movement. The elbow must not float outward from the side of the body otherwise this punch would become a back-fist, which is not a Wing Chun punch. The elbow must be behind the fist to power it forward. The entire fist will make contact with the lower three knuckles emphasized. A whipping type of energy should be used with is punch.

Outside whipping punch " hoi faan kuen" is very similar to the inside whipping punch except that it circles to the outside of the centerline and proceeds back to the centerline. This punch also uses a whipping motion and is used to move around something that is blocking its intended target. Keep the circles very small for both the inside and outside whipping punches otherwise you will open yourself up for an attack. Again, the entire fist makes contact with the lower three knuckles emphasized.

Inside diagonal punch "ngoi doi gok kuen" appears similar to a boxers hook except that the whole body turns, drilling the punch into the center, ending with the fist on the centerline. This fist can be used when a straight line cannot. The fist is at the height of the sternum when practicing in the air, while the angle of the fist is in between being horizontal and vertical (palm facing yourself). The elbow is out slightly, while sunk. The entire fist makes contact with this punch.

Outside diagonal punch "hoi doi gok kuen" travels from the opposite shoulder and heads in a straight line to the centerline. This punch cuts inward to find or create an opening in an opponent's structure. This fist can be used when you do not have the centerline. Quite often, outside facing footwork is used with this punch. The entire fist makes contact with the lower three knuckles emphasized.

Hammer fist "chour kuen" makes contact with the bottom side of the fist. In order to structurally support the fist, the thumb must be placed on top of the index finger rather than on the side. This fist may be applied in any angle needed, high or low. Any type of chopping motion may be replaced with the hammer fist.

[t_niehoff]

Nick,

From my perspective, the core power of WCK (at least as I practice it), comes from a certain body mechanic that is associated with the YJKYM, and doesn't rely on stepping or torquing with the body (those are additional mechanics that can be done independently or combined). Nor does the power of the jik chung choi (in YJKYM) come from the extension of the arm (as the power is generated by the body). The drill I described tests our development of that mechanic.

Simon, Marcus, et. al.,

Just like it isn't helpful or productive to talk about the power (punch) being a "lightning bolt" it doesn't help to think about it from a (pseudo) physics POV. You can't learn or develop any physical skill that way. (It reminds me of the cartoon where the nerdish kid on the basketball team diagrams with scientific and mathematical computations how to sink the basket and then goes out on the court and makes the "magical" shot! In real life, it doesn't work that way.).

Mechanics (using our body in a specific way) are based on feeling and involve using some specific *result* to guide the adjustment of how you are using your body to achieve that result. For example, if you want to learn a good forehand drive in tennis, someone would first show you the basic "form" of a forehand, and then have you actually hit the ball with it telling you to try to get it into the court. Then they would work -- drill -- on developing your mechanics (the best way to maximize the results you're looking for) which is how you obtain real power in your drive. You judge your development (improvement of mechanics) based on how well power is transmitted to the ball (does it blast off your racket like a rocket) and your ability to keep it in the court (with control, placement, etc.) -- results. It is important to note that there is more to a forehand than just hitting the ball as hard as you can, and good mechanics allow us to get "maximum results with minimum effort" (to quote the kuen kuit). And it's the same with the WCK punch -- there's more to it that simply extending the arm as forcefully as possible. Good mechanics are like a lever. Thinking about F=MA won't make your forehand or your punch any better

[Knifefighter]

Originally posted by crimsonking
In detail - deep musculature (especially in the torso). What specific muscles are you referring to?

[SAAMAG]

His first post basically described the JKD as bruce lee said it.

A whip, instead of a hammer.

The generation of power quite frankly, is generated through relaxation in application, no matter the punch.

And some wing chun kuen, doesn't have all the punches that someone mentioned, those are the punches as Augustine Fong catagorizes them as I remember my studies correctly. Too many different names for basically the same punch, they're only coming from different directions....to me there's no need to make 4 punches in a curriculum that are basically the same. The whipping punch is still the straight punch, only coming from a bong position or something of the like depending on whether it's inside or outside whipping, the diagonal punch, is the same as the chair kuen except the angle that you're punching from....do you really think it's necessary to catagorize it as a "different" punch? And then like I said, some lineages don't have all the catagorizations at all.

[Simon Mc]

I think you mis-understand my point and the motivation behind my post.

I am simply interested if the point regarding power transference is correct or not.

In the style of Wing Chun I study we don't do the hand / skin strengthening exercises that I know some flavours go for. Instead we concentrate on strengthening the wrist (among other mechanics) by striking the wallbag in particular. From my limited understanding this is the conduit and focus for the power behind the punch. The aim is to get as much of your body weight focused through this conduit and into your opponent.

To be honest I couldn't give a monkeys for algebraic formula. All i want to know if that when push comes to chain punch I can neutralise the attacker.

This is of pertinent interest to me because unfortunately one of the only times I've had to fight a few years back I was highly inebriated. The guy came at me and due to many factors (my level, confidence and state of drunkeness) I advanced with chain punches.

The force of my punches put the other guy down but the resultant force also caused me to loose my own footing in a scene a lot less classy than Rocky v Apollo the rematch. Drunkeness not doubt played a major part but sometimes you can't choose when confrontations occur.

I know there's no "magic punch", no matter how cool it looks on TV. Right now I'm not able to do a lot of partner work else I would play with the punch as my seniors have done on my torso before and see what works. Therefore, I think.

Simon.

[SAAMAG]

Sounds to me like you fell because you were drunk, not because of anything to do with the punching.

The punches work - punch from the heart, keep the arms loose until impact, snap your wrist, power comes from the ground-you need to have body unity and and good stance foundation for this. Without balance, power cannot be generated. Remember to drive in with your body , and not lean forward, be aggressive with your footwork, and punch him! If he's still there...punch him again, and again.

[Simon Mc]

Vankuen,

You'll get no argument from me! It's a bit hazy if I fell on contact or over his feet when I was admiring my work as he was struggling to get up. How it all ended up is a long story but to keep it short - reprecussions. Again, old lesson - if you can avoid a fight do so but there's times...thankfuly few.

Back to my point which I do apologise if it's off thread - I'm new posting here.

That experience was a drunken one but actually punching something solid does raise some interesting question. In the UK (not there now) whole lessons would go pass without me punching anything.WTF.

My latter experience of punching airshields, wallbags, chest protectors, and people tell me that there is a whole mixed bag of structural mechanics that I should try to understand, if not employ. Specifically what I've been trying to convey is dealing with the force that comes and harnessing the force created. Example - I can't move the man infront of me like I should and my stance is rocked.

Right now I'm thinking about one of my si-soqs talking about "finishing the step" and locking the knees. The points you raised were also good and I do try to be mindful of them.

Don't worry, if I could ask my seniors / Sifu I would but I'm working overseas at the moment.

Oh and Vankuen I dig what you're saying, in the words of my Si-fu,

"To be kind to your opponent is to be cruel to yourself"

Peace,

Simon.

[AndrewS]

Simon,

you fell because you were p*ssed, you b*st*rd. You get my email yet?

Here's a nice drill set for you- get a 6-8 lb rubber medicine ball (or a 4 and a 10 so you can work one for power one for more speed). Hold it elbows in (like the piercing hands in CK) and fire it at a wall, standing at a distance where you can catch it without having to change levels too much. Fire the ball at the wall, catch and absorb, then fire again as fast as possible after the catch, absorbing with the body as much as possible and with the arm as little as possible. Do sets of 20. Then do roughly the same thing with the turn. Next, do this drill, throwing the ball the same way but with a step, stepping back quickly, then stepping into the ball as it rebounds (probably a bit off-center), trying to catch it with your lead foot midair, absorb, and fire it back at the wall as you close the stance down. The last one is easier with a partner, btw.

Later,

Andrew

[Simon Mc]

Andrew,

Yep and it was great to hear from you. I'll fire one back (specifically to ask about that active bong reply) but I'm getting ready for the only week's holiday we get here in Taiwan for Chinese New Year which for me starts later on today.

Thanks for the drill btw. I'll look to get a medicine ball ASAP. The weird thing about Taiwan is it's not how you'd expect it to be. The electronics aren't really that much cheaper (apart from PC's) and there's hardly any MA shops. When my training partner gets back from the states I'll try a few things on him as well.

All the best,

Simon.

[old jong]

Originally posted by dej2



Here is a section on punching from the Wing Chun Archives web site.

http://www.wingchunkuen.com/why/articles/contemporary/gordon_punching.html

Eight Fists
The most used and recognized Wing Chun punch is the pulling vertical punch "chair kuen". It is said that all other punches are a variation based on this simple yet very important punch. The proper structure is by holding the fist vertical, the whole fist should make contact with the intended target, with the bottom three knuckles emphasized. By holding the fist in a vertical position, the muscles in the arm are kept in their most relaxed and natural position. This position also considers the skeletal structure of the arm. Basically, the skeletal alignment is very strong structurally while the muscles are being kept relaxed, allowing for fast punches with the explosive release of energy into the opponent. The punch explodes forward like a bullet. The elbow is forced inward and down by keeping the fist vertical, this position promotes trapping, a method used in conjunction with the attacking hand. The elbow should work like a piston pushing and pulling the fist to its proper placement, along the elbow line. The rear elbow's position also helps to defend against mid level body attacks. Even though this punch travels in a straight line, it contains drilling movement, without this the punch is dead, not to mention there a greater possibility of damaging the elbow. This punch is considered an uprooting technique because of the rising path it travels. It starts at the height of the sternum and drills upward until the motion completes at shoulder height, thus, uprooting the opponent if properly placed. When the fist is in the rear position, do not bend the wrist, keep it in the same position as it would be when extended.

Drilling punch "joung-lo kuen" is a mid level punch that travels down the centerline and stops with the elbow about a fist away from the practitioners own body with palm facing upward. This punch drills forward and makes contact with the entire fist, while focusing on the front two knuckles because of the angle of the fist. This punch has forward energy with a slight upward drill; it may also be used similar to a boxer's uppercut. Don't extend this punch; keep it close to the body and bring your body to the target.

Low punch "chaap kuen" is a straight punch focused at a low-level area. The entire fist makes contact while the focus is on the first two knuckles. The angle of the fist is almost horizontal. A low vertical punch would make contact with the index finger first, putting the wrist in a vulnerable position. While practicing this punch, it should be aimed forward, not to the floor. Again, like all the punches, there must be drilling motion within this punch.

Inside whipping punch "ngoi faan kuen" is a straight punch that starts with a small circle which travels to a straight line. This punch travels on the centerline and is used to move around something in its path with a circular movement. The elbow must not float outward from the side of the body otherwise this punch would become a back-fist, which is not a Wing Chun punch. The elbow must be behind the fist to power it forward. The entire fist will make contact with the lower three knuckles emphasized. A whipping type of energy should be used with is punch.

Outside whipping punch " hoi faan kuen" is very similar to the inside whipping punch except that it circles to the outside of the centerline and proceeds back to the centerline. This punch also uses a whipping motion and is used to move around something that is blocking its intended target. Keep the circles very small for both the inside and outside whipping punches otherwise you will open yourself up for an attack. Again, the entire fist makes contact with the lower three knuckles emphasized.

Inside diagonal punch "ngoi doi gok kuen" appears similar to a boxers hook except that the whole body turns, drilling the punch into the center, ending with the fist on the centerline. This fist can be used when a straight line cannot. The fist is at the height of the sternum when practicing in the air, while the angle of the fist is in between being horizontal and vertical (palm facing yourself). The elbow is out slightly, while sunk. The entire fist makes contact with this punch.

Outside diagonal punch "hoi doi gok kuen" travels from the opposite shoulder and heads in a straight line to the centerline. This punch cuts inward to find or create an opening in an opponent's structure. This fist can be used when you do not have the centerline. Quite often, outside facing footwork is used with this punch. The entire fist makes contact with the lower three knuckles emphasized.

Hammer fist "chour kuen" makes contact with the bottom side of the fist. In order to structurally support the fist, the thumb must be placed on top of the index finger rather than on the side. This fist may be applied in any angle needed, high or low. Any type of chopping motion may be replaced with the hammer fist.

This was written by my Sifu: Patrick Gordon.



( From Vankuen) Too many different names for basically the same punch, they're only coming from different directions....to me there's no need to make 4 punches in a curriculum that are basically the same. The whipping punch is still the straight punch, only coming from a bong position or something of the like depending on whether it's inside or outside whipping, the diagonal punch, is the same as the chair kuen except the angle that you're punching from....do you really think it's necessary to catagorize it as a "different" punch? And then like I said, some lineages don't have all the catagorizations at all.

Since these punches take different routes to reach their target,they also need to be trained specifiquely to produce correct power and energy.I know that most Wing Chun lines don't catagorize them but,IMO,doing so helps in training them and having them in our practical arsenal more than just knowing them in a theoric way.

[Yaksha]

I was taught with the statement "it is what it is."

I would ask my instructor "whats the name of that technique?"

Then he'd show me the technique and say "that's its name."

I would ask what a movement is good for and he'd say "whatever you use it for, thats what its for." and "figure it out."

He said its not the techniques but the transition from one technique to another that was most important, so the categorization is just a distraction to training rather than a benefit.

[Ali Hamad Rahim]

Originally posted by Yaksha
the less surface area you contact, and shorter the amout of time during contact, the more the force unfolds into the opponet rather than bouncing back into your arm, and the more force delivered in that short amount of time, the more piercing power.

Think of a wild cat pouncing, a thunderbolt striking, or a wave crashing into a rock. That is the manner in which you have to move your body to strike in that way. You must be relaxed until you make contact, THEN you deliver force. Its like using a yo-yo or cracking a whip. The same kind of attitudes and reflexes involved.

Would you say that is an accurate description of piercing power?




Oh!!! Yaksha,, that’s a super bad post you put up there (a very good one)… In some words we call that Negative Space within the Steiner Point System (the body unity concept)… What we do is find and hold correct structure (that’s what ever your system may call correct)... We try not to give out a lot of movement that says intent or something that someone can pick up on your timing with… We always attack the attack by using a half step Toi Mah footwork (rat stepping),, no more then one full step before bridge contact,, because if you have to take more then one step you’ll be chasing your opponent, which means that you did not find a successful fighting line and can easily run into a hard counterattack… If you cannot find a fighting line upon bridge contact, you will have no control and chum over your opponent structure,, and if he or she is halfway good they will find a defensive position just out of shear panic… We cover a lot of ground from very little movement… The ground we cover is all within our opponent's defensive structure,, straight too the mother line or throat,, simply by attacking your opponent's attack he or she does most of the work for you,, they practically cover the long range distance… That’s when Toi Mah comes into play,, wedging or piercing in some words such as gen lik sao (tendon use)… Using defensive structure when wedging (half triangle) with good structure and a relaxed body you are piercing within your opponent's defensive structure with none of the shock clashing back on you,, that’s when the offensive structure comes into play (full triangle,, hands are now shooting out on the bridge) with proper structure cutting straight into the mother line,, with control and chum…

Hey Mike OJ. Nice too still see you around. A lot has been going on while I’ve been away, huh. Stay strong “Big Papa”...


Ali Hamad Rahim.

detroitwingchun.com (http://detroitwingchun.com)

[old jong]

Originally posted by Yaksha
He said its not the techniques but the transition from one technique to another that was most important, so the categorization is just a distraction to training rather than a benefit.

I understand what you mean but let me illustrate my point on this subject of "categorisation"
Let's take a jazz player as an example. If he wants to improvise freely,he must first learn and practice many categorised skills witch include; many types of scales,chords,arpegios,patterns,substitutions,ETC. ..He must do his "woodshedding" as it is said in the field. Then,using his knowledge he can "flow" with it in an intuitive manner and blow on a tune or theme.
This is the same with any martial art. There are things to be learned and ingrained in the nervous system before it can be applied in a natural and flowing manner in actual combat.This is when you can forget about it and simply play as said Miles Davis before.

[Phil Redmond]

Originally posted by old jong
I understand what you mean but let me illustrate my point on this subject of "categorisation"
Let's take a jazz player as an example. If he wants to improvise freely,he must first learn and practice many categorised skills witch include; many types of scales,chords,arpegios,patterns,substitutions,ETC. ..He must do his "woodshedding" as it is said in the field. Then,using his knowledge he can "flow" with it in an intuitive manner and blow on a tune or theme.
This is the same with any martial art. There are things to be learned and ingrained in the nervous system before it can be applied in a natural and flowing manner in actual combat.This is when you can forget about it and simply play as said Miles Davis before.
I know that drill . .pun intended. ;)
PR

[old jong]

Originally posted by Ali Hamad Rahim

Hey Mike OJ. Nice too still see you around. A lot has been going on while I’ve been away, huh. Stay strong “Big Papa”...
Ali Hamad Rahim.
detroitwingchun.com (http://detroitwingchun.com)

Hey Ali!
Always doing my best!...That was a nice Wing Chun post BTW!...
Keep on with it! ;)

[old jong]

Originally posted by Phil Redmond
I know that drill . .pun intended. ;)
PR

I have to admit that I had a thought about you when writing this post!...;) :D

[Vajramusti]

Good post Ali.

joy

[Vajramusti]

Phil-

Since the Mao revolution "Shaolin" has been largely emasculated and politicized IMO.

Even re Tibetan buddhism the PRC communist party decides on who the Panchen Lama will be.

Politics both ways- with the PRC after tourist dollars and folks going to shaolin for nostalgia and various other reasons including publicity.

I admired Moore's restraint given the silly monk's behavior.
He aint no buddhist in my books.

joy

[Ali Hamad Rahim]

Originally posted by Vajramusti
Good post Ali.

joy



Thanks Joy!!! Always a pleasure talking with you…

Ali Hamad Rahim.

detroitwingchun.com (http://detroitwingchun.com)

[Ali Hamad Rahim]

Originally posted by old jong
I understand what you mean but let me illustrate my point on this subject of "categorisation"
Let's take a jazz player as an example. If he wants to improvise freely,he must first learn and practice many categorised skills witch include; many types of scales,chords,arpegios,patterns,substitutions,ETC. ..He must do his "woodshedding" as it is said in the field. Then,using his knowledge he can "flow" with it in an intuitive manner and blow on a tune or theme.
This is the same with any martial art. There are things to be learned and ingrained in the nervous system before it can be applied in a natural and flowing manner in actual combat.This is when you can forget about it and simply play as said Miles Davis before.


You the man Mike,, you the man!!!



Ali Hamad Rahim.

detroitwingchun.com (http://detroitwingchun.com)

[Mark Rasmus]

Hello Members
Here is a copy of a handout I give to my students to help understand our method of developing shooting force.
Mark


Wing Chun
1 & 3 inch punch training
by Mark Rasmus

Stand in front of the wall bag in a neutral stance.
Place your fist on the bag with the bottom three knuckles touching.
Feel the center of gravity (COG) of the bag and the wall through
your knuckles, especially pay attention to the footing/foundations
of the wall. Feeling the footing/foundation of the wall is important
as it represents the root of the structure. You are concerned with
feeling three things at this point, 1. COG. 2. Point of contact. 3.
Root/connection to gravity.

Slowly unfold your hand until the middle two fingers are touching
the pad, maintain feeling of the COG and root through your fingers.

Load the first bow

From shoulder to finger, relax, sink and stretch/expand out your
whole arm so it feels like every joint is fully open and the fascia
is stretched out. Hang the shoulder down to ensure there is no
floating in the shoulder. Your elbow should bend and drop down to
allow for the extra space created in the expansion. The pressure
through the fingers should remain less than 125 grams. The elbow
should drop vertically, there should be a 90deg angle between the
triangle of your arm and the ground. A feeling of roundness should
exist in the arm from fingers to shoulder. Continue feeling the COG
and the root through your fingers.

Load the second bow

Relax the mid point of the scapula so it pushes out as the upper
back rounds and the chest hollows. A feeling of rising in the back
may occur, allow it to rise due to the hollowing in the chest but
let it settle and sink naturally with relaxed mind. You will notice
that the rounding of the back will generate a longer bridge,
compensate by bending the elbow a little further downwards. Continue
feeling the COG and the root through your fingers. The bend in the
elbow at this point is the angle of the lead guard position and
represents the optimal angle for absorbing and delivering strikes.

Load the third and fifth bow

Relax and sink your waist and hips downwards. This will stretch the
third bow, being the muscles of the back as well as the whole spine
as you keep your head suspended from above. The dropping of the
waist through relaxation will generate sinking and compression in
the legs being the fifth bow. Relax your foot and let it become
heavy, relax the ankle, let it become heavy, relax the calf, let it
become heavy, relax the knee, let it become heavy, relax the upper
leg, let it become heavy, relax and open the hip joint. Allow a
feeling of relaxation to flow from your hip into the ground as the
legs get compressed and the spine stretches open. Continue feeling
the COG and the root of your target through your fingers.

Preparing the 4th bow, the hips, waist, tailbone, lower dan tien.

The 4th bow is more like a ball than a bow. It is elastic on the
outside and hollow on the inside as it encases your COG in emptiness
making it invisible to your training partners senses. It encompasses
the tailbone which connects the spine to the base as well as
controlling and amplifying the forces passing through it. The
principles of activating the base energy center also apply but will
be covered later in more depth. The tailbone should be tucked under
and the lower back straightened. The anus and testicles should be
relaxed inwards, but if this distracts you incorporate it later. The
buttocks should be relaxed and hang comfortably.

The vertical circle

Relax from your fingers down through your body to your root so there
is a stream of relaxation moving downwards. Sink your mind down
through the root under the root of your target and back up through
the wall to the bag into your fingers forming a loop. Now mentally
allow relaxation to move through this vertical circle until it
becomes a strong sensation of sinking in your body and you feel that
the target has been absorbed to be an extension of yourself.

Loading the fourth bow, the controller of the force

The stretch from the hip to the fingers is released to contract back
onto the hip. The compression in the legs is released to recoil onto
the hip, loading the hip with incredible energy. The hips, waist and
spine subtly spiral as the relaxed current of energy rebounds back
up the body and out through the bridge like a jolt of lightening
into the targets COG and disrupting its root. It should feel almost effortless but
powerful, as if it is an energetic reaction to the stretching and
compressing of the tendons, joints, muscles and fascia.
As you hit the target, awareness travels with the wave of force with
a feeling of emptiness that pervades all to fulfill the destiny of
the punch. On impact, stick to the target and follow the force as
you listen to the COG, root and effects of the punch.
Remember, quality before quantity.

Working with a partner.

Face your partner, both in a neutral stance with your partner
placing a phone book on his chest. Repeat the exercise as with the
wall bag with a greater emphasis on feeling your partners COG and
absorbing it into your contraction just prior to punching. The
vertical circle between you and your partner is a crucial part of
training and should be generated straight away. It allows you to
absorb your partner into your field of awareness and move his energy
field in accord with your will.

Wing Chun is a method of delivering powerful currents of
relaxation which contain consciousness to fulfill a task. Every time
you emit a wave of relaxation in the form of a punch you are in
essence sending out a part of yourself.
:D

http://au.geocities.com/markrasmus/retreat.html

[KPM]

Originally posted by Simon Mc

Thanks for the drill btw. I'll look to get a medicine ball ASAP. The weird thing about Taiwan is it's not how you'd expect it to be. The electronics aren't really that much cheaper (apart from PC's) and there's hardly any MA shops. When my training partner gets back from the states I'll try a few things on him as well.



---Go to a toystore and buy the cheapest rubber basketball you can find. Then cut two crossing slits in it to make an opening just big enough to fit the tip of a funnel thru. Then use the funnel to fill the ball with clay cat litter and close off the slits with duct tape. Whoala.....an 8-10 lb. medicine ball for about $8. :-)

Keith

[AndrewS]

Keith,

I don't think that will have the bounce he needs to do this drill. The medicine balls I use are basically weighted basketballs (and in fact, use them to play passing games to do active rest during my lifting).

Andrew

[SAAMAG]

are medicine balls really that expensive that one should go through the trouble of buying a basketball and filling it with kitty litter?

[KPM]

Originally posted by Vankuen
are medicine balls really that expensive that one should go through the trouble of buying a basketball and filling it with kitty litter?

---When I decided I wanted to experiment with one in my training I priced them at Galyan's. They were about $40 to $60 a piece depending on the size. Like Andrew stated, I discovered that some brands were simply weighted basketballs.....hence my idea. :-) I didn't figure I was going to spend a lot of time using a medicine ball and just wanted to experiment a bit. So $8 versus about $50 seemed like a good deal to me. :-)

Keith

[AndrewS]

The weighted basketball ones have some bounce, others are just dead weight (and are less useful for this sort of drill). Moreover, if you're looking for a heavy medicine ball (like over 16lbs), they can be hard to find.

Andrew

[Ali Hamad Rahim]

Originally posted by Nick Forrer
Here are some notes I jotted down recently about the wc punch.

How is power generated?

a) from the local muscles in the arm (extending)

b) from the torque of the waist (turning)

c) From the forward motion of the body (stepping)

Everytime you hit your punch should have these 3 elements involved. In fact even when you punch whilst stepping back these elements are involved since c) is created by your opponents forward step

However all these elements can be found in a boxing punch so what distinguishes the wc punch?

- Ease with which it can be recycled (less chambering).

- Proximity to the target ( hands already halfway extended),

- elbow down (this creates a connection with the stance, meaning that all the returning force upon impact is channelled down through your stance into the ground and back out again, creating a force feedback loop that amplifies your pre-existing power)

- elbow rising as it goes forward, point of impact being short of the complete range of motion, which finishes beyond the target (thus you are punching through them and not at them (this helps uproot the target)).

Good post,, Mr. Nick Forrer...

Ali Hamad Rahim.

detroitwingchun.com (http://detroitwingchun.com)