How do you condition without going against Tai Chi principles?

[Tai Chi Shawn]

OK, I'm not trying to win the award for most consecutive posts in a 24 hour period. I just happen to have a little extra time this last day or so. A rare thing for me.

My dilemma: I don't want to be a fat Tai Chi stylist. Wu training encourages you to look to Chi, not muscle strength for power, speed, etc. I have heard it further stated that muscle-developing exercises are counter-productive to Tai Chi training. Well ... thats great if you're one of those guys who can eat cheese burgers and stay ripped even while sitting behind a computer all day. I know guys like that, but I'm not one of them. I eat well, and I exercise and I can't drop a gawddamm ounce of weight. I used to teach Kempo professionally, and it took 4 months of 70 hours per week of training/teaching to finally drop some weight. When I stopped teaching, I gained it ALL back in 3 weeks. I sh#t you not, three weeks.

My question: what strength and leanness training can I do that will not interfere with the goals of Tai Chi? I know its a loaded question, but does anyone have a similar experience and a suggestion or 2?

shawn

[Pilgrim666]

Tai Chi Shawn,

Just remember, bacon is not a vegetable.

Mike

[count]

You might try about an hour of footwork drills, and do some free sparring. That wouldn't violate any martial principles, let alone Tai Chi ones.:D

[Chief Fox]

Don't know if it violates the principals of tai chi but you could go running a few times a week. It's quick, it's easy and you can do it just about anywhere. Add some pushups, pullups and situps and you're doing pretty good.

[SPJ]

Yes.

Actually, you need both. We have to learn how to relax and then focus Qi and Jing to a certain part of the body while the rest of the body is totally relaxed and just relaying the Jing without stops.

On the other hand, you also need your regular workout.

Chen Tai Ji Lao Jia Yi Lu or Chen Chang Xing's form first routine.

It is used to learn how to be soft, flexible and circular all the time.

Use your body to move your arms and hands. Yi Shen Dai Bei.

Er Lu Pao Zui, or cannon fist 2nd routine.

You use your hand to lead the body. Yi Shou Ling Shen.

[SPJ]

First routine focuses on how to be gentle and Peng Lu Ji An.

Second routine focuses on how to be hard and Fa Jing with Cai Lei Zhou Kao.

These are how I was trained with Chen Tai Ji.

So you need to learn how to be soft and hard both.

In the beginning, we all learn the moves first and then get them right everytime.

Whenever you practice everyday, you are already conditioning all of your body.

[Tai Chi Shawn]

Pilgrim666: Thats enough outta you, wiseguy! :) My eating habits are really quite good. I'm vegetarian, and my diet consists mainly of fruits, vegetables, nuts, legumes and some dairy. Little to no bread, pasta etc. Technically I should be ripped.

OK, I appreciate the "try running, and push ups" comments, but I likely should have made a few things more clear.

-I know how to exercise.
-I was was told specifically by Sifu that push ups, sit ups, etc., cause the muscles to become tight, thus defeating the "stay loose and fluid" objective.
-My metabolism is "super-naturally" slow. I don't mean slow. And I don't mean I'm lazy. I mean defying science and logic, stumping doctors and a nutritionist slow. Inspite of my level of activity, which is high.

I'm looking for a little feedback from someone who has similar experience, or knows someone who trained thier asses off and got nowhere, but later found a solution. One that, of course, is martial arts based.

shawn

[Brad]

Personally, I think your teacher is just flat out wrong about the push ups and ab work thing, as that's what I was originally going to write when I first saw your post :P My teacher also has his students do handstands. I was also going to recomend looking at different wieght lifting exercieses(consult an expert first, though). If you wieghtlift, you want to make sure to lift for power and not bulk(which is why I recomended talking to an expert first).

Running, push-ups, ab work, etc. are really the best ways I can think of to contribute to wieghtloss. Also, pay attention to when you eat... like eating a meal right before bed isn't a good idea, eat some carb/protean thing(like a turkey sandwhich) imediately after a hard workout might help contribute to building stronger muscles. Maybe think about seeing a doctor(thyroid problem might prevent you from losing wieght). It's hard to see give good advice though without actually seeing what your workout and diet routines are like though. Can you describe in more detail?

[imperialtaichi]

Originally posted by Brad

I was also going to recomend looking at different wieght lifting exercieses(consult an expert first, though). If you wieghtlift, you want to make sure to lift for power and not bulk(which is why I recomended talking to an expert first).



You can also try to exercise with the Tai Chi long spear. From what I know the Yang family practiced with it during the Qing dynasty. Start with a standard 1.5m one, then work towards a long heavy one (such as 4m at 6cm diameter).

The idea is to "dance" with it with minimal strength. This trains your ability to have fine motor skills even under tremendous stress. If you do it properly, you will be able to get a pretty good work out, improve your Tai Chi skills, and without bulking up on muscles.

Cheers,
John

[Brad]

Good idea, I forgot about that kind of training :-) It's popular with xingyi and baji guys too, and Chen stylists do that kind of thing, but with a staff (maybe they use spear sometimes too, I don't know).

[Vash]

. . . If someone says "weight training will make you stiff" or in any way implies weight training or resistance training as a whole is not good for all activities, then the someone is wrong.

Utterly, completely, without doubt, wrong.

As for weight loss, of course I would recommend iron training.

As for diet, I'd recommend you start hammerin' down on the protein shakes - whey since your a vege . . . veget . . . one of them people who doesn't eat the greatest thing in the culinary history of the fukcing world. Try to get at least 1 gram of protein (not soy - avoid soy like the de-manning plague it is) per pound of body weight.

Oh, you do stance training? Resistance training.

You move against the force of gravity? Resistance training.

You bend/twist/move at all in Tai Chi? Resistance training.

Muscle move the body. They must have some measure of tension to do this. Yes, the intent is to be relaxed, but if you're too relaxed, you're falling down so that I can more efficiently stomp on your crotch.

And eat some meat.

[Brad]

What's wrong with soy? Just wondering, because my parents are allways giving me all this soy junk(soy milk, soy sloppy joes, etc.)

[Vash]

Increases aromatization of testosterone into estrogen.

[Tai Chi Shawn]

Wow Vash, did you grow up with repressive vegetarian parents?

kidding :D

You're right about resistance training being evident in just about everything. I do eat protein (fish, milk, eggs), though I stopped downing protein shakes (yes whey - I don't do soy) because I was gaining weight quicker on them (no it wasn't muscle - unless muscle collects around your neck, gut and thighs). Understand, I gain weight eating goddam celery. I know its impossible by any nutritionist standards - I had one tell me I must be lying to him, cause its not possible. Well ... I live the unfortunate truth of it. I work my ASS off and reap no rewards (ok, yes other than the excess weight I'm strong and healthy, but you get my point. Besides, chicks don't give you credit for looking good on the inside).

I've thought about the thyroid thing. I may check that out next.

shawn

[Vash]

Not exactly - BBQ was the top, bottom, and middle of the food pyramid (may it burn in an undying hell).

I'm just amazed that so many would say "this is not good" when it is so easy to find out why it is "that dayum good."

As for the weight thing . . . I'm not a nutritionist. I'm not even a doctor, though I play one when a nice lookin' girl wants. I do, however, feel you would be much impressed with your fat loss (ne'er equate the numbers on the scale with your actual progress - use it as a reference, but not as your goal) were you to integrate full-body weight training, high intensity interval training (energy system work) into your life.

I promise it will help, because Vash and. Wrong don't fit in the same sentence.

[Vash]

Also, try mixing your protein drinks with water or juice in place of milk - it may taste like sun-dried ass, but'll get some of the calories out.

Good luck. Let us know your decision, progress.

[Tai Chi Shawn]

Thanks Vash. Chances are I'm not going to join a gym, but I'll start doing the ole' "work out with your own body weight" thing. I have a number of those types of workouts in my head still (I had a personal trainer years ago - he was big on "no weights, but your body's weight").

I'll report back on my progress, later.

shawn

[cam]

Hi Shawn, maybe you're just blessed with a slow metabolism. My only suggestion is to practice till your legs are shaking, then practice some more!

[Shooter]

swim breast-stroke continuously for 45-50 minutes 3 days a week along with a good 1 hour heavy-bag routine 5 days a week

[Tai Chi Shawn]

Originally posted by Vash
. . . Yes, the intent is to be relaxed, but if you're too relaxed, you're falling down so that I can more efficiently stomp on your crotch.

Jeeez Vash, ... you wouldn't really "stomp on my crotch" would you?

By the way, I'm still laughing about "sun-dried ass"

Nice one.

Hey Cam - I'd rather be "cursed" with a hot body.

END TRANSMISSION

[lltdow]

Hey Shawn,

I was also told that lifting was bad for Taiji by a bunch of my friends but something about it never sounded right. I talked to a trainer about how to keep the muscles conditioned with out getting tight. Her first comment was to increase my stretching, the more I stretched the less likely I was to get stiff. Secondly, to increase my aerobic workouts such as jogging. And, lastly she suggested if I wanted to work with weights, to do more reps at a slower pace with a lighter weight.

Let me know what you think.

LLTDOW

[count]

Lifting weights is not bad for tai chi. It may be bad for you. (Don't panic Vash, it may be good for you) Clearly, exercise effects muscle bulk which may interfere with a certain range of motion. Clearly, muscle bulk is not an indication of fitness or conditioning either. Clearly, every body is different. A good teacher may tell you to avoid weight lifting and tell the guy next to you something else. Do you have a good teacher? Ask him.

Breast stroke fits right in with tai chi motion, but seems to me, the most relaxing stroke to do. Maybe if you push it hard you might get a conditioning workout. What do you think about butterfly stroke? ;)

[Shooter]

try breast-stroking a mile in under 40 minutes.

[cam]

That's a curse I could live with. Maybe try something like Pilates, they talk about working with the core all the time and you'll meet lots of cuties!
There are a lot of good suggestions out there Shawn, though I thought Tai Chi should be enough, at least you don't have to sacrifice your body,(knees) to get in shape

[Tai Chi Shawn]

Yeah - my knees still bother me. Thanks Temple Kung Fu ... those jerks!

There's a reeeeeeeeeeeeeeal sweetie at my school, though I've only seen her once.

Pilates babes ... yeah, you're right. Though I might get busted staring at clevage. Being a man is good. I don't appologize for that comment either. :D

shawn

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings...

Mmmm.. breast-stroking.. Mmmmm...... oops, sorry, got distracted..

Gymnastics, break-dancing, rock climbing, Taiji ball QiGong with varying sizes and weights... stance training, trance-dance for hours.. custom diet prepared by a knowledgable nutritionist.. swimming (i favor the back-stroke).. make every physical task a mindful training in principles..

Be well..

[Pilgrim666]

Shawn,

Above all, I think that you should focus mostly on your health. If you're heavier than you want to be, so be it, as long as you're not overweight or unhealthy. I don't want to give you some cheesy philosophy that you should accept yourself and love yourself. Personally, if I were in your situation, I'd way (weigh -haha) way my image of myself against what it would take to change that i.e. I simply could not partake of a fitness/ diet regimen where I was forcing myself to eat things I didn't enjoy (not to be construed as a knock against vegetarianism at all). What I'm trying to say is that I eat well and if it means I carry a bit of weight, so be it. If I'm healthy with a bit of weight, screw it - that's fine with me.

Sorry, I rambled. I think I had a point in there...I do understand your pursuit of slimness, though.

Did you ever read Asterix and Obelix when you were young? Obelix was 'larger' but man could that dude fight!

In the end, if oprah and dr. phil have taught us anything, it's that if you're a big, fat lardo, it's not your fault!

[lltdow]

There are a lot of cuties in Pilates classes as well as Yoga classes.

Both will increase your flexibility and core strength, two key assets in Taiji. Plus, you don't see to many fat yoga or pilates instructors.

LLTDOW

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..


In the end, if oprah and dr. phil have taught us anything, it's that if you're a big, fat lardo, it's not your fault!
"we are what we have chosen to be.. the beauty of it is that we are free to choose again and again".. If Oprah and Phil taught us anything it's how to avoid taking responsibility for our own existence.. choose who you want to be and do it, period. If you are comfortable with excess weight, fine.. just don't blame it anything other than your own choices.. unless, of course, you have a real medical condition.. genetics are tendencies and can largely be overcome with diligent effort, just another choice depending on what one chooses to be...

Be well...

[littlelaugh]

Hi Shawn,

I find that practicing yoga gives me a lot of strength. I think some people have the wrong impression about it in that they think it's all about flexibility. Really you work all your muscle groups with vinyasa and standing poses while becoming very flexible. The idea is to do all this fluidly, with long breaths, effort without tension. You might find that it complements your tai chi well.

I too have a slow metabolism. In fact, at one point I gained twenty pounds while playing 3 soccer games per week and it wasn't muscle. I found that I really had to adjust my diet because it was all about the foods that I was eating.

I second or third the idea of getting your thyroid checked. If your doctor is mystified you might want to check in with an endocrinologist. These doctors really understand thyroid problems, blood sugar issues and metabolism.

Cheers,

Laugh

[Ray Pina]

Since I've been focusing on the internal side of things, since I had a stomach problem about 2-3 months ago, I've lost 15 lbs and have never felt better. For the most part, it's been a change of mind, I just don't get urges like I used to, I find myself skipping dinner for the first time .... maybe just havong some oatmeal or cereal or dumplings for dinner. Not every night, but 2 or 3 times out of the week.

On a physical side, two man drills, punching drills, groundwork, etc. You'd even be surprised what walking the circle and the up/down of the opening Taiji can do .... without increasing your heart rate too.

[Tai Chi Shawn]

Thanks for the solid info, everyone. And, just so no one thinks of me as Orca, I'm 5'7 at 196lbs., with a lot of muscle development. In truth, I have about 25 lbs. of fat I should loose. Its not that I'm huge, its that what I have seems so resilient as to defeat my every effort to loose it.

Thyroid, food, exercise - I agree that the answer is in there, somewhere. Lilkely more variations are needed to discover the actual problem. My eating habits are solid, but possibly wrong for my needs. My level of activity is high, but maybe its all the wrong stuff. Its frustrating as hell.

Cam, to your point, yes I'm happy that I'm strong and healthy. I'm athletically inclined and pretty quick - a big surprise to some sparring opponents in the past who assumed I was heavy because I sat on my ass and ate chips or something. This weight thing is just a part of my training I want to fine tune. If I don't carry the extra weight, I don't have to work as hard. Chi vs. strength, etc. blahblahblah.

Dead horse thoroughly beaten. Onward and upward. Chicks galore etc etc etc

shawn

[Chief Fox]

I'm sticking with the go running to loose weight. I run 3 times a week now and 4 or 5 times a week during the summer. It's a great wy to loose weight and then keep it off. It'll boost your metabolism too.

For those that think lifting weights atomatically means bulking up YOU ARE WRONG! Lifting weights will make you stronger, it can increase your flexibility and will boost your metabolism. Bulking up requires that you eat A LOT. The increased tissue size just doesn't come out of thin air. It is a result of an increase in calories. If you eat more while also lifting, you will increase in size or bulk up. Body builders eat all the time. If you just maintain your normal calorie intake while lifting, you'll burn body fat, get stronger and boost your metabolism.

Back on topic: Tai Chi Shawn, go for a run. :D

[Ray Pina]

Well said. Without muscle what can your chi do for you in terms of physical expression or power issueance?

The reason I avoid lifting weights though is two fold: 1) it trains the mind to fight weight/resistance 2) I didn't believe my master when he said it, but I did find my punching power actually decrease after 3 weeks of lifting. This was about a year ago.

[Surf Taut]

Hi folks, new to the board.

It seems a common misconception that being muscular is against internal principles. This couldn't be further from the truth. Firm, toned, buffed muscles shouldn't be confused with tensing the muscles. The latter being totally against the aforementioned principles. It all boils down to relaxing and letting your structure and alignment work as nature meant it to. Nothing mystical about it. I think the chinese term is "song", relaxed but firm [not sure if this is the correct term here]. Not relaxed like a wet noodle.

Shawn, if you are trying to lose weight in hopes of improving your Taiji, you might want to rethink that. Remember, bigger is always better :D especially in internal. [i.e., without being flabby or obese]

[count]

Hi surf,

Welcome to the wackiest forum on earth. :D For the most part, I don't disagree with your first post. But it is a common misconception that what is good for one is good for everyone. Unfortunately, nothing could be further from the truth. Some people learning the so called "internal martial arts" should ask someone who knows whether weight training at certain times in their development would be an aid or detriment. ;)

[Ai Lek Ou Seun]

Problem with most weight training is it develops the belly of the muscle at the expense of developing the tendons.

Taiji is all about tendon power.

If you are working your muscles and joints through the full range of motion then there is no conflict.

For this purpose I recommend body weight exercises, calisthenics and some types of weighted exercises.

[Surf Taut]

Hi Count & thanks.

Yeah, I agree. Everyone needs to find what works for them. Whether they learn it on their own or from someone/somewhere else.

I guess my point being that weight training or whatever training should not be detrimental to his Taiji as long as he adheres to the principles of the art.

[One Finger Zen]

Good posts here, and I think basically the view on the whole is that you can be physically strong AND relaxed/ supple/ adhere to the taiji principles.

I weight train and do Hung Quan or Hung Gar/Kuen. I'm pretty muscly yet I can easily relax and stick to the principles. In my opinion, it helps to be physically fit.

For exercise, Chen Lao Jia Yi Lu is definitely a good one to practice. Takes a good 10 minutes to get through and you can do it extra slow and emphasize on the fa jing. The stances can also be quite low if you prefer- a lot of people differ their opinion on that. I practice this form almost shaolin style in terms of stance height- really helps with rooting and leg strength. Ma bu is also a good stance in the hung gar to practice (everyday) but a lot of people hate having to do this static stance and more to the point, it isn't relevant to the taiji in principle.

So, practice more :D

[wdl]

Vash is right on the money. Assuming your not trying to bench 400lbs weight training isn't going to make you tighter. Especially if your doing low weight/high rep and stretching right, which is primarily what you need anyway. Running on the other hand for me personally is a problem. It tightens my hip flexors and no matter how much I stretch if I run 2-3 times a week I loose flexibility. If it has the same effect on you, that would of course interfere with your Tai Chi. So keep an eye on it. But a good weight training routine
plus a jump rope will go a long way without having to run.

-Will

[Vash]

**** straight I'm on the money.

I'm like Meatwad. But pretty.

As for the weight training, high reps/low weight is more apt to be a detriment to your training than the reverse - more fatigue, etc.

As for Fu-Pow's Muscles v Tendons "argument," please do the following:

1. Get a clue. I think they sell them at Wal-Mart.
2. Swallow it.
3. Drink some Miracle Grow.
4. Shake it like your mamma told ya.
5. Let the clue blossom and grow into a full-blown concept, and stop post utter garbage as relates to weight training.

Yes, it is possible in weight training for muscular strength and development (strength being a key concept here) to outpace the tendons. But, it's not exactly overly common. And following a sensible training program, employing good form with a weight you can handle for the prescribed number of repetitions will help keep your superiorly developed tendons from ripping free of your tension-free muscles.

You don't move because of your tendons. They attach bone to muscle. So, if you have punk-ass muscles, you will have punk-ass tendons.

Thus have I spoken, thus do it be.

[scholar]

The cross trainings that have been recommended to me by my seniors are:

1. Swimming

2. Hiking (not jogging)

3. Sprinting (not jogging)

4. Bike riding

These, they say, will benefit T'ai Chi training. Resistance training with weights isn't recommended as it tends to shorten and thicken the muscles, which is the opposite of the effect we are looking for in our other training. Our weight training is in our weapons and throws, weight bearing through a complete range of motion that encourages coordination instead of dumbbells in a limited range of motion that encourages repetitive strain injury. Long, loose and coordinated; not short, thick and tight.

I have found that I have gained a good amount of weight over the years as I've done T'ai Chi. This I ascribe to two main factors, an increased appetite from training all the time and genetics. All my relatives gained weight as they aged. While I feel it helps my fighting, that isn't a good excuse, I know and have known T'ai Chi masters, men and women, who could easily clean my clock who are (or were) as skinny as a rail. What I do like about it is that I feel much better than I did when I was thin. I have a lot more energy and I don't catch illnesses the way I used to. I haven't had a cold in years!

[Vash]

Originally posted by scholar
Resistance training with weights isn't recommended as it tends to shorten and thicken the muscles

If you don't follow a full ROM, use bad form, and just do bench press all the time, I can see that.

Not if you stick to a good program, though.

[wiz cool c]

What ways are there to develope strength in the internal arts without weight training. What I know so far is weapon forms standing and vigorus pushing and boxing. Are there any other ways that anyone knows of.

[Fu-Pow]

Originally posted by Vash
If you don't follow a full ROM, use bad form, and just do bench press all the time, I can see that.

Not if you stick to a good program, though.

Taiji's idea of ROM (Range of Motion) and weightliftings idea of range of motion are not the same. That is, Taiji seeks to increase the range of motion (and simultaneously coordinate it.)

[Fu-Pow]

Originally posted by wiz cool c
What ways are there to develope strength in the internal arts without weight training. What I know so far is weapon forms standing and vigorus pushing and boxing. Are there any other ways that anyone knows of.

You don't have to be "strong" in the classical sense. You have to have to have Peng Jin. This occurs when you have the right combination and balance of Wai Jin (outside energy/skill) and Nei Jin (inside energy/skill).

[Vash]

Originally posted by Fu-Pow
Taiji's idea of ROM (Range of Motion) and weightliftings idea of range of motion are not the same. That is, Taiji seeks to increase the range of motion (and simultaneously coordinate it.)

First, there is only ONE idea of ROM - it refers ONLY to the range of motion in a joint.

If one is stronger throughout the range of motion, how exactly would one be less coordinated?

Aw, phuckit.

[ketchup]

I would say, if its not a thyroid problem and the above suggestions don't work, to just accept it. It's probably the way you're naturally supposed to be- accept it. Beauty comes in many forms. Embrace it-

[Fu-Pow]

Originally posted by Vash
First, there is only ONE idea of ROM - it refers ONLY to the range of motion in a joint.

If one is stronger throughout the range of motion, how exactly would one be less coordinated?

Aw, phuckit.

The range of joint motion in Nei Jia is greater than what is required for weight lifting. Typical weight lifting does not strengthen muscles through the full range of motion (in the Nei Jia sense). It reinforces movement patterns that only work within a limited range. This leads to stiff, uncoordinated movement.

General conditioning, yes. Classical weight training, no.

That is, weight lifting will do nothing for your Peng Jin which is the root of internal skill.

[Vash]

Originally posted by Fu-Pow
The range of joint motion in Nei Jia is greater than what is required for weight lifting. Typical weight lifting does not strengthen muscles through the full range of motion (in the Nei Jia sense). It reinforces movement patterns that only work within a limited range. This leads to stiff, uncoordinated movement.

General conditioning, yes. Classical weight training, no.

That is, weight lifting will do nothing for your Peng Jin which is the root of internal skill.

Dayum, if that was any more wrong, the thread would have imploded.

[Fu-Pow]

Originally posted by Vash
Dayum, if that was any more wrong, the thread would have imploded.

You practice karate so what does it matter to you anyways?

You're not trying to develop Peng Jin for karate are you?

:confused:

[MasterKiller]

Originally posted by Fu-Pow
You practice karate so what does it matter to you anyways?

You're not trying to develop Peng Jin for karate are you?

:confused: He's a certified personal trainer commenting on your obvious confusion about weight training.

[Vash]

Originally posted by MasterKiller
He's a certified personal trainer commenting on your obvious confusion about weight training.

Dayum, Masterkiller is all over the correct like red5 on a fat girl.

[Fu-Pow]

What is "obvious" is that you guys are more interested in trying to have a Fu-Pow internet slam fest rather than actually sharing any information.

Sorry, not gonna play that game.

If you guys really wanted to discuss this then I would see some counter-points to the points that I've tried to make.

Instead, and what is typical of an attempted internet tag team is snappy one liners, catchy soundbites and appeals to authority.

If I see one more post on this forum about "the correct" I think I'm going to barf.....

Get over it guys.....it's sooooooooo 2 years ago.

:rolleyes: ;) :D

[Vash]

Originally posted by Fu-Pow
What is "obvious" is that you guys are more interested in trying to have a Fu-Pow internet slam fest rather than actually sharing any information.

Sorry, not gonna play that game.

If you guys really wanted to discuss this then I would see some counter-points to the points that I've tried to make.

Instead, and what is typical of an attempted internet tag team is snappy one liners, catchy soundbites and appeals to authority.

If I see one more post on this forum about "the correct" I think I'm going to barf.....

Get over it guys.....it's sooooooooo 2 years ago.

:rolleyes: ;) :D

All right, some counter-points:

1. If you weight train correctly, you move through the full range of a joint's motion.

2. Muscles are attached to bones via the tendons. With proper weight training, the strength and hypertrophy increases of the muscle will not outpace the tendon, thus allowing proper function of the bone, muscle, and even the tendon - the function being, of course, to move the bone.

3. Muscles move the bone. Not the tendons. The tendons let the muscles do their job. The muscles move through tension. How much tension you can generate in a muscle is maximized by cyclic taxation of the CNS and the musculature. That does not mean you become more tense, it means you can put out more force safely. The more force you can handle, the more efficiently you can handle less force.

4. You bear weight every day. We fight gravity. you don't get to go through life without picking heavy siht up. That's how it works.

5. The human body is designed to adapt to stressors - without the stressors, the adaptation can lead to a less-than-optimumally-functional organism.

6. The internal arts are chock-full of stories of strong mofos. They did not get to be strong mofos by standing in San Ti all day. In a vacuum. A gravity-free vacuum. Which is the only place the body will not be feeling external stress.

The correct has been massaged, steamed, acupunctured, manicured, pedicured, and laid all over this thread.

[Vash]

Originally posted by delibandit
Second, he's certified by who? That's like saying someone has a blackbelt. Like, who cares, these days that could mean anything, including he bought it at the local MA store and certified himself in his own style.

I'm certified through the International Sports Sciences Association. Google Charles Staley and Fred Hatfield.


I think he studies Isshinryu here: http://www.wolffdojo.com/

Looks like a serious school.

I never said our web-fu was strong.

As I understand it, the thing is a template from Century. Most of the text isn't ours.

At least, I hope not.

[Vash]

Personal training as it stands is a self-regulated industry.

The ISSA has no campus as such, but there are many seminars one can attend all over the country. Generally, they're two to three days long, and present either an overview of the course material, or work on specific areas of training.

If I were officially a senior in college, I'd be with the NSCA as well. Though their material differs little from that of the ISSA, they are a much more recognized name, and are a top-notch training group.

Man, 12 hours a semester may be easy, but I'm gonna be in school for ever.

Wait . . . pretty, easy girls in college.

No complaints, then.

And you don't have to do a bodybuilder's routine with non KB exercises.

I don't.

[MasterKiller]

Originally posted by Vash
I'm certified through the International Sports Sciences Association. Google Charles Staley and Fred Hatfield.



I never said our web-fu was strong.

As I understand it, the thing is a template from Century. Most of the text isn't ours.

At least, I hope not. Fess up. Which one are you.

http://www.wolffdojo.com/albumImageView/view/StudentPhotos.pml?photoId=9735

[Vash]

Actually, I'm not in any of the pictures :(

Most of them were taken just before I healed up and returned to class.

I'm not even pictured on the instructor's page, though I'm listed (it's the last name on the list).

[Fu-Pow]

Originally posted by delibandit
[B]First of all, developing peng jing is not the big goal of taiji.

Actually, from my viewpoint that is totally wrong. Peng Jin is the most fundamental jin to Taiji. All other Jins including Lu, Ji and An as well as Listening Jin develop from Peng Jin. I'm not talking the technique Peng, I'm talking about the Body Mechanics. The are several well known masters who have advocated calling Taiji Quan, Peng Jin Quan because it is so fundamental. I'm not sure of your background or level of experience but I have to strongly disagree.

[Fu-Pow]

Originally posted by Vash
[B]All right, some counter-points:

1. If you weight train correctly, you move through the full range of a joint's motion.

What I'm talking about is classical weight training exercises ie bench press, military press, lat pull downs, bicep curls etc. Even if done properly the joint does not move through the full range of motion. The reason: every joint can move in 3 planes, even if only slighly, therefore any motion that takes the joint through the 3 planes is going to be spiral. The classical exercises get most of the muscle but they don't get all the way out to the tendons. Mostly they just work the "belly" of the muscle.


2. Muscles are attached to bones via the tendons. With proper weight training, the strength and hypertrophy increases of the muscle will not outpace the tendon, thus allowing proper function of the bone, muscle, and even the tendon - the function being, of course, to move the bone.

"Proper" "Correct", these are subjective terms, because we are limited to words I don't know what you are referring to. However, as I stated above, even when done "correctly" those exercises will not help with Taiji.





3. Muscles move the bone. Not the tendons. The tendons let the muscles do their job. The muscles move through tension. How much tension you can generate in a muscle is maximized by cyclic taxation of the CNS and the musculature. That does not mean you become more tense, it means you can put out more force safely. The more force you can handle, the more efficiently you can handle less force.

Muscles can shorten or lengthen. Concentric and eccentric contraction. In Taijij the muscles stay long.




4. You bear weight every day. We fight gravity. you don't get to go through life without picking heavy siht up. That's how it works.

And you've heard about the Taiji master who could throw people across the room but couldn't pick up a bowling ball? Different kinds of strength, Wai Jin and Nei Jin.



5. The human body is designed to adapt to stressors - without the stressors, the adaptation can lead to a less-than-optimumally-functional organism

6. The internal arts are chock-full of stories of strong mofos. They did not get to be strong mofos by standing in San Ti all day. In a vacuum. A gravity-free vacuum. Which is the only place the body will not be feeling external stress.

But where is the stress? On the outside or on the inside. In Taiji practice when you do standing meditation you try to relax all the muscles in your body. If a part of your body becomes tensed you feel it and it tells you that you are "holding on" somewhere. You have to learn to relax the outside (Wai) and let the inside (Nei) do the work.


The correct has been massaged, steamed, acupunctured, manicured, pedicured, and laid all over this thread.

I warned you .....*barfs all over himself*;)

[Fu-Pow]

I was talking about :

Peng as in swell; expand; inflate

character= http://www.chinalanguage.com/cgi-bin/char.cgi?81A8

Jin as in vigor; energy; strength [2] spirit [3] an air; manner

character= http://www.chinalanguage.com/cgi-bin/char.cgi?52C1

Ahhh......I see on the character dictionary that Jin and Jing are interchangeable pronunciations but the meaning is the same.

So Fa Jin(g) means to express strength/energy. I think usually in Taiji this refers to expressing short explosive energy like as in Kao, Zhao, Cai or Lie rather than Peng, Lu, Ji or An.

BTW, I wasn't trying to bag on your experience I just didn't understand why a Taiji guy would be arguing against the significance of Peng Jin to Taiji. You're lucky to have a good teacher....I am too! ;) :D

[Toby]

Give up Vash.

[Vash]

Originally posted by Toby
Give up Vash.

Indeed.

What the **** do you mean the muscles don't shorten in TJ? If you move, one shortens, one lengthens! That is the ONLY way to move.

Alas. **** on you. I am right, you are wrong.

Thus have I spoken, thus do it be.

[scotty1]

This old chestnut again.

That thing about the master who couldn't pick up a bowling ball is ridiculous. I'd rather be able to carry my shopping home form the market than throw someone across the room when I was old!
What would be the point?

:confused:

Vash, glad you're on this thread. Weight training may not be the most appropriate strength training method for tai chi, but you're dispelling myths and I'm learning a lot, cheers.

Wiz Cool C, for strength training we do weight punching, rolls, handstands, and the neigung:

24 exercises that strengthen and condition the body specifically for tai chi, or martial arts in general. Dunno how many styles have similar. I know the Wu family system has them, I've heard them referenced as the 24 forms.

[Vash]

Originally posted by scotty1
Vash, glad you're on this thread. Weight training may not be the most appropriate strength training method for tai chi, but you're dispelling myths and I'm learning a lot, cheers.

Thanks. One of my biggest gripes, though, is that any type of resistance training, even bodyweight training, is technically weight training. Though, the term is most often employed to describe exercises wherein non-bodyweight or bodyweight+ equipment is used.

So, I suppose resistance training is a more apt term.


for strength training we do weight punching, rolls, handstands, and the neigung:

We need a "thumbs up" smiley.

In all honesty, I have no idea how, with the shear volume and accessibility of proper weight training knowledge, these myths maintain such a dominant position in the martial art's psychology.

It's them **** hippies, I'm sure of it.

[count]

Actually Vash, and I have been posting this all along, is the truth always lays somewhere in the middle. People will always think their expertise is the "be-all,-end-all" solution to a problem, when in fact there is none. A good professional will understand, each problem is unique and apply the right tool for the right job.

Weight training of any kind can be counter productive to developing certain characteristics of the "internal" martial arts. And I'm not only talking about pumping iron only. On the other hand, certain types will not be harmed by, in fact can benefit from it. So what is the point of even discussing/arguing about it? If a teacher says you should/shouln't do some kind of training, he probably has more information to work with than someone who has never even seen you.

[count]

Originally posted by delibandit
Do any of you on here even know what "internal" is? There's a lot of talk about internal this and internal that, but I seriously doubt that most of you even understand it.
do tell than. :)

[Fu-Pow]

Originally posted by Vash
[B]Indeed.

What the **** do you mean the muscles don't shorten in TJ? If you move, one shortens, one lengthens! That is the ONLY way to move.

Is it? I'm pretty sure that the muscle can lengthen and contract at the same time aka eccentric contraction. The individual fibers may contract but the muscles itself gets longer. Do you dispute this fact? You're the personal trainer.




Alas. **** on you. I am right, you are wrong.

Thus have I spoken, thus do it be. []

Is your name really Charleton Heston?

[Fu-Pow]

Weight training of any kind can be counter productive to developing certain characteristics of the "internal" martial arts. And I'm not only talking about pumping iron only. On the other hand, certain types will not be harmed by, in fact can benefit from it. So what is the point of even discussing/arguing about it? If a teacher says you should/shouln't do some kind of training, he probably has more information to work with than someone who has never even seen you. [/B]

I think that a general conditioning program (done the right way) can help whatever martial art you do. Push ups, sit ups, pull ups, pistols, sprinting, etc.

However, there are certain exercises that are so fundamentally opposed to the body priniciples that you are trying to develop that they harm rather than help your development.

In Taiji you want to be "through." That means that gravity transfers smoothly and evenly through your entire structure. From the top of your head to the small bones of your feet to your middle finger.

Taiji is one of the few arts that has this level of "throughness." And it is a requirement for Taiji to work effectively.

When you introduce excess tension through weight training. When you purposefully resist and incoming force (ie the weight) and do not transfer that weight through your entire structure then you are creating subtel points of tension and blockage into your body structure. If you are pushing against a person with high internal skill they will listen and "find" that blockage and exploit it. (If I personally knew how to exploit it then I wouldn't still be taking classes.)

I know this from first hand experience. I have 8 years invested in Wai Jia martial arts. Many consider CLF to be a very relaxed art. However, compared to Taiiji it is very tense. When pushing with my teacher he constantly finds points of tension (usually in my legs) and finds a way to knock me up, over or back.

Vash brings up an interesting point about everyday activities being like weight training. To some extent that is true. However, true Taiji masters are doing Taiji in their everyday activiites. They are using the minimum of effort to do everyday activities.

As it has been explained to me by teacher :In Nei Jia training first you learn to deal with your own body weight. To align your structure, release all tension and blockages and become "song" or relaxed. You develop Peng Jin or "inflated energy." Only when you have mastered that do you add anything extra like a Taiji ball or heavy Weapon.

At that point you are not creating blockages by lifting something heavy. You are "floating" the heavy object on this Peng energy. You are still Song on the outside. The weight transfers all the way through your structure, through your bones and tendons and into the ground.

Based on this knowledge I think that weight training could be detrimental to development early on and therefore I do not recommend it as an adjunct to Taiji training.

For other external martial arts it shouldn't be as much of a problem and would actually help your kung fu.

Peace.

[Vash]

Originally posted by Fu-Pow
Is it? I'm pretty sure that the muscle can lengthen and contract at the same time aka eccentric contraction. The individual fibers may contract but the muscles itself gets longer. Do you dispute this fact? You're the personal trainer.

Indeed, it is. Contraction, as you pointed out, does not equal shortening. But a muscle cannot take up less space without contraction. Even if I have someone else move my forearm nearer to my humerus, whilst I remain completely without muscular tension, the triceps will still lengthen and the biceps will still shorten.


Is your name really Charleton Heston?

No, it's Charlton Heston, bich.