Sanda and Muy Thai, the differences

[ChuanFa631987]

What exactly are the differences in striking and fighting strategy in Sanda and Muy Thai?
Some things I was wondering were if Sanda uses elbow strikes and if it has more kicks.
Also, for those who have tried both, which do you prefer?

[SevenStar]

san da prefers the sidekick ot the roundhouse, whereas it's the opposite for mt.

I don't think that san da has more kicks, but you may see more of them in competition, as mt tends to use only the teep, roundhouse and back kick most of the time.

The guys on this forum that train san da though can go into more detail than me about it, as I only train MT.

[norther practitioner]

sev,
have you considered fighting in any san da matches?

[lkfmdc]

Muay Thai and San Shou are like cousin arts, and share some common features. They are both arts that have developed clinch fighting to a high degree. However, the current formats have changed what it is that they do in that clinch.

Muay Thai and San Shou do almost the exact opposite thing in the clinch. For Muay Thai, the defender wants to stand upright, with your hips close to reduce the room for knees. The attacker wants to shift their hips back a bit to create room for those strikes.

For San Shou, the defender wants to pull their hips back and base out so they are not thrown. The attacker wants to drive forward and get close. If the defender were to stand straight up, hips close, they would get thrown.

making any sense yet? :)

A Muay Thai defensive postion gets you thorwn. A San Shou defensive position open s you up for knees.

Currently, a lot of san shou fighters have sloppy shoots. They go in with the head down. With knees, this would get them KTFO. Then again, we discourage it in san shou as well! If you look at the world tapes, with the higher level fighters, you will see guys get KTFO from kicks when they bend their heads down. It is not a proper technique

My guys, because they cross train not only in knees but also in submission, know to keep their heads up (not to eat the knee, not to get guillotined).

Of course, there is also the fact that when you try to knee, you are only on one leg. Muay Thai already has within it many ways of grabbing the knee and exploiting this weakness, but of course in San Shou you are not limited in how you can throw the guy once you've grabbed the knee. Particularly grape vining the leg and hooking between the leg works and both are illegal in current Muay Thai.

In a san da format, a fighter has to alternate between the knee game and the throwing game. The knee would prevent sloppy shoots, but as MMA has shown, would not eliminate them totally.

Elbows would not change the game much, they are close range strikes, meaning that using them also puts you close enough to throw.

blocking the knee strike There are several methods of blocking a straight knee strike. The first and foremost line of defense is to maintain the superior position in the clinch and launch your own attack. Neck wrestling to obtain the inside position must be practiced diligently. Of course, there are times when one loses the superior position

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by norther practitioner
sev,
have you considered fighting in any san da matches?

actually, yeah. Some boxing too. we've talked about san shou, but are currently looking at boxing, since there's alot of it locally.

[norther practitioner]

cool, gu luck.

[Suntzu]

BIGGEST difference...... is the clock..... 2 minutes of a san shou round is.... well.... it ain't 2 minutes that's fa sho......

[Akhilleus]

The biggest difference is that in muay thai you could win a national title...sooner...

[Pork Chop]

errr i think that was an east coast title :p

[Ray Pina]

"If the defender were to stand straight up, hips close, they would get thrown." ..... I can attest to that.

"2 minutes of a san shou round is.... well.... it ain't 2 minutes that's fa sho......" ... I can attest to that too:o

[DragonzRage]

"2 minutes of a san shou round is.... well.... it ain't 2 minutes that's fa sho......"

...which depends on your conditioning :)

[Ray Pina]

Conditioning of course. But conditioning is like money.... everybody wants it and strives for it but how much can you realistically get?

I'll be 31 in May and I'm an editor. I can't condition like the 18 year old and I can't spend like the stockbrocker.

So it's more important for me to learn how to watch my budget. Get done what needs to get done by using what I have intelligently.

I've learned to accept this within the past 8 or 9 months and have been training wiser. At the same time, this does not mean that I don't have certain condition.

Likewise, you'll often hear me disagree about lifting weight, that it trains to fight against weight/resistance and can actually harm your punching power because you may train the biceb to get involved when it should be purely tricep and vice a versa .... this does not mean I don't have power. In fact, most of the guys I've competed against were bigger than me, yet if you see the fights they tend to be avoiding confrontation, clinching, running .... this of course is smart and a sign of experience.:D

[Water Dragon]

Train harder. I'm 31 and we regularly go 4-5 6 minute rounds in BJJ 3-4 3 minute rounds in Boxing and Muay Thai and 2-3 5 minute rounds in NHB. It hurts, but it's doable. And I smoke.

[Suntzu]

...which depends on your conditioning unless you are a state sponsored chinese fighter that trains 8 hours a day since you were 3 years old...... 3 rounds of san da is a whole 'nother he|| compared to muay thai.......... and 3 rounds of in the ring with some guy that is trying to take your head off doesn't even compare to training......

[Merryprankster]

I can't condition like the 18 year old

Yeah you can. What Water said.

[SimonM]

Ok come on... I am 26 and overweight enough that I border on obese (I used to do more than border :P) and - depending on intensity - I can spar bare handed for 15 - 30 minutes in one go. I'm not talking 7 2-4 minute rounds, I mean steady through the session. So basically I agree with Merryprankster; a 31 year old should still be able to train hard.

[DragonzRage]

"3 rounds of san da is a whole 'nother he|| compared to muay thai.......... "

-umm...bull$hit.

"and 3 rounds of in the ring with some guy that is trying to take your head off doesn't even compare to training......"

-thanks, but I don't need you to tell me. been there done that:rolleyes:

[Mr Punch]

When I box I do seven to ten three-minute rounds with 30 secs break in between. And that's usually after groundwork classes (an hour and a half also including a few five-minute rounds with 30 sec breaks and loads of stuff like 40 sprawl drills followed by twenty shoot drills and twenty shoots and sprawls... etc etc yawn snooze coma... ya get the picture!)...

But, everybody's bodies and capacities are different... so saying 'You should be able to do this' is a bit ridiculous.

I mean, I can also have sex for twenty-five seconds... bet there's not many of you that can say that! :D

[Merryprankster]

I can spar bare handed for 15 - 30 minutes in one go.

I can roll for an hour or longer, depending. This isn't what I'm talking about.

I'm talking about the ability to take your heart rate to about 85-90% of your projected maximum and leave it there for five or six minutes. Very different requirements on both cellular metabolism and CV system.

[David Jamieson]

san da and muay thai....

they're both pretty similar. couple of differences in the rules.

But here in the west, they are both basically kickboxing.

People like to think of them as reality fighting because all the hitting and stuff.

It's all good if you're into that sort of thing. I enjoy good sparring and the science of combatives. But it can just lead to a big ego stretch (regardless of all the guys who say "leave your ego behind etc etc, that is mostly bull****, after all, it's competitive, so take it from there.)

anyway, if ya like to take whacks at folks, and get a few taken at you, it really doesn't make a difference what you decide to train.

But excuses like I'm fat I can't do it, close the door on you before you get in. NObody is gonna coddle you into training like that, you either do it or do not do it. period.

[/rant]

[Merryprankster]

But it can just lead to a big ego stretch

It can, but the people who engage in this will never be the best they can.

You have to train like it's the most important thing in your life and fight like it doesn't matter.

People with big ego problems tend to train like it's mildly important and fight like it's the most important thing.

They tend to lose against evenly matched opponents.

[David Jamieson]

ah, ego is ego, everyone has one, some people have an overinflated one.

maybe they won't be the best they can be (whatever that means) but a person have an overinflated sense of self doesn't mean they can't beat your ass into the ground consistently no matter how "true" you are to your training.

face it, some guys are *******s and they also train hard and they kick ass.

The competitive environment attracts egoism (and repels it quickly too) and there are plenty of egoists. More so than you will find in nude tai chi class for instance. :p

Or a karate club loaded up with gawky and geaky kids standing on one leg all night. lol

[Water Dragon]

I don't know KL. I've seen lots og big ego guys walk through our door. As a general rule, they don't come back. I think it's because their ego simply can't take the @ss whooping that is a regular part of training. It's the humble, quiet guys who do best at my gym. Even the 1 or 2 ****y guys who stayed have mellowed out quite a bit.

[Merryprankster]

Exactly WD.

It takes humility to walk in, get *****ed day in and out, and keep coming back.

A big ego can't handle that. Much safer for them to find another activity.

People who think competitive sports are about egos don't understand competitors.

Bullies are different, and don't usually make it very far unless they are just blessed with enormous talent.

This doesn't make great competitors nice guys....plenty of non-bullies out there who are *******s!

IN high school, the football players always came out for wrestling. They were tough, they were strong, they could hack it, right?

Nah. We usually had one out of ten or twelve stay. They were used to skating by on attributes. Then they got *****ed by some ****y looking skinny kid. Couldn't handle it.

[Mr Punch]

Yep, precisely.

Here's (http://observer.guardian.co.uk/osm/story/0,6903,1404039,00.html) one famous example of an ego losing someone's career. There are hundreds more.

I don't have an ego cos I always get my ass wupped! :D

[David Jamieson]

a big ego without skill is one thing.

a big ego with skill to back it is another thing entirely.

as a for instance, I point to Muhammed Ali.

In his heyday, a total egotistical guy and he could wallop the crap out of anyone basically.

If ya don't know enough, I agree, it is best to shut up and listen and take your lessons like a tablespoon of buckleys. Learn from your errors and move forward.

But I am not under the impression that -no ego- is the rule amongst ma-ists in any category. There is plenty of ego in all genres. Which is also perfectly human in nature.

[Pork Chop]

Originally posted by DragonzRage
"3 rounds of san da is a whole 'nother he|| compared to muay thai.......... "

-umm...bull$hit.



Actually; he's got a point...
A Muay thai round will always be of a specific length...
A San Da round can stretch to almost 10 minutes because they stop the clock on takedowns....
Also a bigger energy output when you're talking about repeatedly picking up someone of equal or similar weight...

FYI Suntzu's done both to a pretty high level regionally; so he's speaking from experience.

[Water Dragon]

Originally posted by Kung Lek

face it, some guys are *******s and they also train hard and they kick ass.

The competitive environment attracts egoism (and repels it quickly too) and there are plenty of egoists. More so than you will find in nude tai chi class for instance. :p


A lot of this has to do with what the instructor will or will not tolerate. I can tell you that it wont happen in my class. I've never seen anyone thrown out yet, but I have seen peple chastised for unacceptable behavior and told that they would not be welcome at the gym if it continued.

Personally, I wont train at a gym with @ssholes. Too dangerous when big egos are involved.

[lkfmdc]

The average San Da round is around 4 minutes and 15 seconds, most MT is a set 2 minute round...

MT is all knees

San da is knees and throws, lots of throws...

Draw your own conclusions as to which is more intense

As for being 31 and not being able to condition, I am OLDER than that.... I still do the same conditioning my fighters do! I was just in Gresham Oregon with Randy Couture, he's older than me and trains HARDER....

[Akhilleus]

I think it depends on the person and the tempo of the fight...some san da matches could be more intense than some muay thai matches...and vise versa...I don't think one is more intense than the other...but I don't know much about san da...

[ShaolinTiger00]

**** broken link..

[DragonzRage]

"FYI Suntzu's done both to a pretty high level regionally; so he's speaking from experience."

Well then I will respectfully disagree with him. IMO, it's a pretty asinine blanket statement from someone who should know better. The two sports are a lot more similar than they are different, and to generalize that one is sooo much harder then the other is ridiculous. It depends a lot more on the individual fighters (their strategies, the pace they set, how they match up, etc). Keep in mind that by the logic that Sanda is extremely more intense than Muay Thai, it should follow that Sanda fighters have much better conditioning. In reality, if you compare Chinese sanda guys with thai fighters, the opposite is often true. Case in point: Zhang Jiapo vs Gaolan Kaovichet in K-1 Max.

[Water Dragon]

I think that Dragonzrage and SunTzu should challenge each other to an internet death match.

[Pork Chop]

Originally posted by DragonzRage
Well then I will respectfully disagree with him.

Well as long as you're respectful about it. :p

Personally, I'd rather fight in the shorter rounds.
How you can say that they are more similar than they are different and then ignore the fact that the rounds in one are double the length (on average) is equally asinine. :)

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by EvolutionFist
Conditioning of course. But conditioning is like money.... everybody wants it and strives for it but how much can you realistically get?

I'll be 31 in May and I'm an editor. I can't condition like the 18 year old and I can't spend like the stockbrocker.

sure you can. One of my bjj coaches is 38, and he places in the top three at pretty much every national level tournament he enters. His goal is to get invited to compete in the abu dhabi. My other bjj boach is 29... almost 30 - and he also places in pretty much every national level competition he enters.

My thai coach is 30, and he competes avidly.

At 31, you're still young - Don't let the thought of "being too old" handicap you. Now, if you were 51, that'd be a different story...

So it's more important for me to learn how to watch my budget. Get done what needs to get done by using what I have intelligently.


Likewise, you'll often hear me disagree about lifting weight, that it trains to fight against weight/resistance and can actually harm your punching power because you may train the biceb to get involved when it should be purely tricep and vice a versa ....

if you are on the right type of lifting program, I can't see this as being an issue.

[Akhilleus]

I think that Dragonzrage and SunTzu should challenge each other to an internet death match.

Oooh you just gave me great idea for another Baltimore San Shou movie...check back in a couple days!

[Water Dragon]

Originally posted by Akhilleus
Oooh you just gave me great idea for another Baltimore San Shou movie...check back in a couple days!

Me and my big mouf.

[Suntzu]

and to generalize that one is sooo much harder then the other is ridiculous. i never said "sooooo much harder".... i said "whole 'nother he||"...... both are he||..... but san da is a whole 'nother he||.....
In reality, if you compare Chinese sanda guys with thai fighters, the opposite is often true. Case in point: Zhang Jiapo vs Gaolan Kaovichet in K-1 Max. also check out Jhon Igo vs Andy Sauyer(sp?) in the S-cup.... or Liu Hai Long(sp?) vs some random thai in the china vs thailand fights :rolleyes: ..... or Jose Palacios vs Boy not sure of his last name from the Fairtex camp........
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Akhilleus
Oooh you just gave me great idea for another Baltimore San Shou movie...check back in a couple days!
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Me and my big mouf. :D

[ShaolinTiger00]

While it's wrong to talk in absolutes, it is without a doubt much harder to fight a round of sanshou or sanda than a round of muay thai. Everyone here who has ever fought sanshou can attest to this, myself included.

Grappling takes energy. Wrestlers are some of the best conditioned people on the planet.

They have to be.

and Liu Hai Long is a bad man!

[Water Dragon]

Ya know, I guess I'm the opposite of most people. Straight Boxing, I'll eat punches all day. Muay Thai, I do a lot better but I'm still not too comfortable. San Shou, I'm a lot happier. I guess I just feel a lot more comfortable in the clinch.

You'd think I'b be happiest with MMA, but that's not the case either.

[Merryprankster]

WD,

maybe you're just not working hard enough.... :D

[Water Dragon]

I dunno about that. Trying to not get my ass whooped is a full time job no matter what the format! :D