The art of Mimicry

[morbicid]

Ive read that we are more confident what we imitate than in what we originate.

I visited a new martial arts school in town. Tae kwon do. I was told that most of my techniques were incorrect and innefective. Likely because I stopped training traditionally years ago. Most of my moves are modified for competition's sake. I asked "don't you believe in improvising a bit for efficiency, or simply to put your own spin on something for fun?" He said NO. NEVER. He said he believes in using all traditional stances and techniques, even during a fight. And that I would also have to do this to train at his school. I was extremely disappointed in his inability to even hear me speak. I'm not trying to tell him how to run his business, but he successfully drove me away from his school.

I told him that in any full contact tae kwon do match this strategy would get him destroyed. Just because some man, at some point in time, decided to do a technique a certain way, he refuses to acknowlege the competetive sport that tae kwon do has evolved to. To acknowlege tradition is great, but to ignore change seems stubborn and ignorant. Is it any surprise that they don't spar at anything more than light contact?

[Samurai Jack]

Originally posted by morbicid
I told him that in any full contact tae kwon do match this strategy would get him destroyed.

LOL! So you found a tae kwon do teacher who isn't interested in sport, and you're complaining?!?!

The fact that the guy expected you to do it his way, instead of bending over backwards to get another student to pay him, says more about his training philosophy than anything else.

So you disagree. Big deal. Dosen't mean you're right, or better. Sport tae kwon do is easy to find. Ditto for a McDojo that'll tell you whatever you want to hear for the right price.

A traditional martial arts school? Now that's a rare gem.

[morbicid]

"Big deal. Dosen't mean you're right, or better. Sport tae kwon do is easy to find"

That was my biggest problem with him. He insisted that I was "wrong". Why does someone who is different have to be "wrong". I respect his honoring of tradition, but he ignores the sport. And he does not respect my way of training.

Being in the military, I've travelled a lot now. Other schools, traditional or not, that I've trained with are more open to the different kinds of students who come and go, and the different ideals they have as a martial artist. It seems to make for a better exchange of ideas thoughout. Sort of like this forum.

[Samurai Jack]

Originally posted by morbicid
I was told that most of my techniques were incorrect and innefective. Likely because I stopped training traditionally years ago. Most of my moves are modified for competition's sake.

Okay. You were there and we weren't. But I can't help but play a little devil's advocate, if for no other reason than the simple fact that most of the changes made in tae kwon do for the sake of sport really have made it much less effective than it traditionally was.

For example, when was the last time you saw a tae kwon do competition where the fighters kicked to the knee? What about the head? What about the groin? What about head butts, knees and elbows, joint locks, and (gasp) effective punches? All of these things are in the traditional syllabus. So why aren't the sport "fighters" using them? Could it be because such techniques aren't allowed in competition?

Maybe the guy was a jerk, but I think he has a point. I can definately empathize with traditionalists who critisize what's going on with martial arts today. My own beloved Aikido is full-to-bursting with airy fairy, tie dye wearin', patchouli stinkin', ki projectin', nonesense spoutin' practitioners who've dumbed down an extremly effective martial art and given it a bad name. They don't get what the founder was trying to do at all, and their misunderstanding has led to alot of watering down.

God, someday little old ladies'll be doing Aikido at the YMCA, and kindergarteners will be getting blackbelts in Tae Kwon Do! Er... wait... just a minute...

(Gets off soapbox, straightens tie, walks away shaking head)

[morbicid]

that was a funny paragraph about aikido :) how do u feel about what steven seagal (spelling?) has done / not done for the martial art ???

I suppose you're right regarding the lack of realistic techniques in sport tae kwon do ( such as leg kicks/ hand techniques/ etc). But wouldn't you agree that never sparring or competing with anything more than light contact is a bit hippocrytical for such a "traditional" school ? If they're traditional techniques are more effective, why don't they show me with some contact sparring ? Not a fight, just a friendly sparring match. When they spar, they barely touch each other and it's basically all pretend. At least the sport competitions, the full contact aspect lets you experience how to block/ evade/ attack an opponent who's moving with real intent to hit.

[Fu-Pow]

My POV.

Firstly, if you sign up to train somewhere you shouldn't argue with the teacher. If you don't respect the teacher then don't bother signing up.

Secondly, Tae Kwon Do is mostly crap. Move on to something better whether that is Kung Fu, Traditional Karate, Muy Thai or what have you.

[David Jamieson]

I disagree that TKD is crap. It's actually quite demanding and there are many reputable teachers of it.

The same could be said for anything really. There's crap kungfu out there, crap karate, crap mma, you name it and there is a crap version of it somewhere being played out as I type this.

But, that doesn't mean it's all crap.

[SPJ]

All in due time.

True. Everyone may have his or her own intepretations, expressions and functionalities in just about everything in life and not the least in MA.

If you go to a cooking school, this is how is done by the teacher chef. Fine, learn his style well and dissecting every ingredient of it.

When you are done with the lessons well in the classes.

The time to incorporate your own flavor will come.

I studied Tang Tui, Mantis, Tong Bei long before Tai Ji and Ba gua.

I have to resist every temptation to voice a different oppinion just about everything.

I started with standing stances and steps. Everything starts over.

Overtime, I picked up something totally different from before.

People may tend to critize what they are learning. Take a note. Try to understand why the teacher said a certain thing in a certain way. The reason why.

This is the way the teacher thinks how to be done and why.

That is the way you think that would be better. Put it in notes.

Resolve the differences by yourself. If the teacher is not open to discuss. May be the time is later.

[Fu-Pow]

Originally posted by Kung Lek
I disagree that TKD is crap. It's actually quite demanding and there are many reputable teachers of it.

The same could be said for anything really. There's crap kungfu out there, crap karate, crap mma, you name it and there is a crap version of it somewhere being played out as I type this.

But, that doesn't mean it's all crap.

Well, we'll have to agree to disagree then. I agree that there are crappy versions of each art. But I've yet to see any Tae Kwon Do that I didn't eventually come to think was crap. Also, I've seen most people (including myself) move out of Tae Kwon Do eventually in favor of other arts.

Tae Kwon Do is a good art for kids, mostly because IMO it is not as practical and there is less chance of them hurting someone. It teaches them some flexibility, discipline and foundational stances. But if you are serious about MA I think that eventually you would move on to something that is more challenging and more practical.

Just my 2 cents.

[morbicid]

I would definetly agree that 90 % of the tkd schools out there are total garbage. Since moving away from Ny, I've looked everywhere for a good school, but it's all money and babysitting people's kids. I've been in and out of tkd schools for over 10 yrs now.

However, before you rule out tkd entirely, I would advise taking a look at the olympic style sparring ( steven lopez, juan moreno, etc. ). Did you see any of the olympic games last year?

here is are some decent clips of tkd sparring:
http://www.darshantkd.com/Adam.htm
not great/ but pretty good.
generally, it's the guys who are creative, and who stray away from the traditional approach who get anywhere in competitions. Freakish speed doesn't hurt either :)

[SimonM]

Well if your new teacher is telling you that you do everything all wrong than there is a simple way to solve that problem. Respectfully and politely ask him to cross hands with you. If you win than the teacher may not have had anything to teach you anyway. If you lose however be prepared to admit that you were doing it all wrong and to eat some serious humble pie.:D

[David Jamieson]

so quick to talk **** about something is not indicative of tkd being crappy. :p

:rolleyes:

You can't tell me that tkd is not a good workout and that their kicking is ineffective.

If it was so crappy, it wouldn't be an olympic sport (which means olympic level athletic training which would shame a lot of people here including many a sensei and sifu)

people are so quick to get on the negative gang rape bandwagon about something.

I did tkd for 4 years, it was good and I got a lot out of it.
Complaining about schools and methods will only get you a big bag of complaints. It doesn't take you forward anywhere.

so either of you actually train tkd for any longer than it took you to decide to leave and hop on over tyo something else?

pffft.

[Fu-Pow]

Originally posted by morbicid
I would definetly agree that 90 % of the tkd schools out there are total garbage. Since moving away from Ny, I've looked everywhere for a good school, but it's all money and babysitting people's kids. I've been in and out of tkd schools for over 10 yrs now.

However, before you rule out tkd entirely, I would advise taking a look at the olympic style sparring ( steven lopez, juan moreno, etc. ). Did you see any of the olympic games last year?

No I didn't get a chance to.



here is are some decent clips of tkd sparring:
http://www.darshantkd.com/Adam.htm
not great/ but pretty good.
generally, it's the guys who are creative, and who stray away from the traditional approach who get anywhere in competitions. Freakish speed doesn't hurt either :)

Thanks for the clips. It gives us something tangible to discuss.

What I see in those clips is pretty indicative of what I see in most TKD. NO HANDS!!!!

If you look at most kung fu styles there is a balance of 50/50 hand strkes to foot strikes up to 99/1 hand strikes to foot strikes .

The reason I think is that hands are simply faster than feet and you can do more with them. In addition, you can use your hands without comprimising your balance. The same can't be said of kicks.

I've seen some very fast kickers and it's good to have fast hands and fast feet but I think that your hands have a greater potential for speed and effectiveness.

Just my 2 cents.

[red5angel]

My guess is you probbaly didn't quite understand what he said. I"m getting from your post that this guy claims he fights EXACTLY how he trains but I highly doubt it.



Secondly, Tae Kwon Do is mostly crap. Move on to something better whether that is Kung Fu, Traditional Karate, Muy Thai or what have you.



ah, to count the ways your an idiot Fu Pow........but I'll try:


1 - "But I've yet to see any Tae Kwon Do that I didn't eventually come to think was crap. "

I'm sure you're an expert TKD artist who has spent a lot of time studying TKD....

2 - "Tae Kwon Do is a good art for kids, mostly because IMO it is not as practical and there is less chance of them hurting someone"

So trying to explain why you think TKD sucks, you again use your opinion as proof? Just like #1 above?

3 - "But if you are serious about MA I think that eventually you would move on to something that is more challenging and more practical."

Where to start? how about - so simple equates to crappy? interesting. And TKD isn't a challenge? I'd challenge you to join a good TKD school and see if that doesn't change.

4 - "What I see in those clips is pretty indicative of what I see in most TKD. NO HANDS!!!!

Ah yes a basic and misunderstood complaint about TKD. Frankly, I know 3 TKD students who don't need to use their hands to win most fights they get into. They are that fast and that good with them. Of course they work a hell of a lot at being that good. Imagine that, the quality of their skill is directly related to how hard they work.

5 - "If you look at most kung fu styles there is a balance of 50/50 hand strkes to foot strikes up to 99/1 hand strikes to foot strikes . "

I know a couple that arent' even close to 50/50

[SPJ]

There are many schools of MA using the feet more.

Afro-Brazillian Capoeria.

Shadowless flying kicks or Wu Ying Jiao from Huang Fei Hong.

Chuo Jiao school, the hands are used as secondary to assist the feet attacks. They have hands down and jump kicks to your chin and many other flying kicks.

Chuo Jiao means stabbing feet.

On and on.

[SPJ]

A link to Chuo Jiao;

A Link (http://wulin.proboards31.com/index.cgi?board=northern&action=display&num=1101804540)

A lot of kickings at shin, sweeping the feet or Sao Tui, facing the back as if retreating and hind kick in your face, on and on.

:cool:

[SPJ]

By the way;

How many kicking methods in TKD?

:D

[Fu-Pow]

ah, to count the ways your an idiot Fu Pow........but I'll try:

You are entitled to your opinion. You are not entitled to call me an idiot. As another martial artist are you challenging my martial knowledge and my character? Do you wish to proceed with that challenge?

[Fu-Pow]

Originally posted by SPJ
There are many schools of MA using the feet more.

Afro-Brazillian Capoeria.

Shadowless flying kicks or Wu Ying Jiao from Huang Fei Hong.

Chuo Jiao school, the hands are used as secondary to assist the feet attacks. They have hands down and jump kicks to your chin and many other flying kicks.

Chuo Jiao means stabbing feet.

On and on.

On and on? Or the exceptions that proves the rule? I think the latter.

Of the 300 or so CMAs MOST do not focus primarily on kicking for what I believe are the reasons that I have mentioned. Some northern styles include kicking in an approximately 50/50 ratio. Usually those kicks are done in combination with hand strikes. Southern styles rely even more on hands over kicks.

[red5angel]

You are not entitled to call me an idiot

I am, have and probably will continue to do so.




Do you wish to proceed with that challenge?

Telephone tough guy eh? I gave you your chance, you decided to throw up the usual internet tough guy arguments. Chicago is a nice enough city to visit on its own, I'm giving you an excuse to fly over and check out the city and prove to atleast two members of KFM that you are as tough as you say you are. My guess is you'll choke on it and rely on the age old excuse that it's not worth the travel/money to make the trip.
That's ok with me though. I don't think you have half of what you think you do, as your knowledge of the martial arts indicates. Otherwise, I'll be in Chicago and hopefully meeting up with WD for a beer on saturday night. You want to "knock someone the fukk out" I suggest you step up and stop talking like pansy. You want to play for points do it on your own time. You want to show me you can fight, then come do so.

[SPJ]

You would know Shaolin.

There are many stamping feet Zhen Jiao and leg sweeps, Sao tui.

It is like 65 % in every routine or form.

[Fu-Pow]

Please email your email address to fu_pow@hotmail.com. We can set this up off the forum as they keep shutting down these kinds of threads.

[SPJ]

Shaolin Quan Fa;

What is the main character?

Sao Tui Duo. Leg sweeps many.

There are tornado kicks in Shaolin and even Tai Ji.

[SPJ]

Does TKD do a tornado kick?

Xuan Fen Tui are in all schools of CMA.

[Fu-Pow]

Originally posted by SPJ
You would know Shaolin.

There are many stamping feet Zhen Jiao and leg sweeps, Sao tui.

It is like 65 % in every routine or form.

I would categorize those more as leg attacks than kicks. They are intended to destroy your opponents balance rather than inflict damage like when you strike.

If you include leg attacks as "kicks" then I can see your argument. However, the TKD that I am familiar with is more about striking the opponents body with a kick. Not destroying his root.

[red5angel]

Does TKD do a tornado kick?

Yes, I saw one used effectively, no hands involved, in a real fight.

TKD has alot of kicks that look a lot like alot of other arts. The leg can only do so many things on the human body so while they might be called different things you'd probably recognize quite a bit even if you studied another art.

Most TKD people train for tournemants and you score more for kicks. This makes most TKD people excel at kicks compared to their equivelants in other sports, but weaker using their hands. of course you'd never see a submission grappler complain about using grappling techniques 90% of the time ;)

[SPJ]

Agreed.

[Fu-Pow]

Originally posted by red5angel
[B]Yes, I saw one used effectively, no hands involved, in a real fight.

Who was the fight against and what were the circumstances?

[Fu-Pow]

Originally posted by SPJ
Agreed.

With me or red5?:confused:

[red5angel]

The first fight involved a small korean guy against a much much larger opponent. I"d say Kit, a freind of mine, weighed in around 130lbs and was about 5'2", Chad, his opponent, was around 260lbs, 6'2" or more and was a football player/wrestler. They squared off, Chad threw a couple of punches and Kit hit him with a tornado kick, in the face, that took Chad out of the fight.

[SPJ]

OOPS;

Both.

The 2 immediately previous posts.

:D

[Fu-Pow]

Originally posted by red5angel
The first fight involved a small korean guy against a much much larger opponent. I"d say Kit, a freind of mine, weighed in around 130lbs and was about 5'2", Chad, his opponent, was around 260lbs, 6'2" or more and was a football player/wrestler. They squared off, Chad threw a couple of punches and Kit hit him with a tornado kick, in the face, that took Chad out of the fight.

Interesting story Red5.

I'm still waiting for your email address at fu_pow@hotmail.com.

I'm fully prepared to come out to Chicago. Let's set it up via email so it doesn't get shutdown.

[red5angel]

email sent

[Fu-Pow]

Negotiations in progress.

[PangQuan]

This is a pretty interesting thread, personally I know someone who would probably break your ribs using TKD if you stepped up. But hey, im not proposing a match. Its just a fact, hes good, he knows hes good. He practices for comp and for actual combat effect. He also is in my Shaolin school. Its like I always say (it always seems to come back to this) "Its not the martial art that makes the martial artist, its the martial artist that makes the martial art". Now I dont count myself among the sage elite, but I am pretty confident that those words of mine hold some truthfull wisdom, just a smidge at least. I have sparred with him, him using his TKD, and me using the shaolin. There are some pretty deceptive moves in TKD and some pretty powerfull ones to boot. My teacher teaches us to achknowledge, and respect each martial art for its diversity, uniqueness and tradition. For this attitude lies along the path of enlightenment. But of course some of us never said we wanted any sort of enlightenment did we?:p

[red5angel]

in the shaolin longfist school I went to they had TKD classes as well. The instructor there ws this little guy, about 5'7", probably around 130lbs or so. His kicks were so fast it was insane, I've never seen anyone kick faster. He kicked me once sparring (by the way, this guys hands were pretty good too but he studied traditional TKD with emphasis on the sport) and he kicked me hard enough to know if weren't wearing the chest protector I probably would have went down.

[Fu-Pow]

Originally posted by PangQuan
This is a pretty interesting thread, personally I know someone who would probably break your ribs using TKD if you stepped up. But hey, im not proposing a match. Its just a fact, hes good, he knows hes good. He practices for comp and for actual combat effect. He also is in my Shaolin school.

Why is he in your Shaoln school?


;)

[Fu-Pow]

Originally posted by red5angel
in the shaolin longfist school I went to they had TKD classes as well.

Why?

[PangQuan]

Because he views it as this, "TKD and other various similar sport related martial arts are for people, TCMA is for martial artists" Thats the way he tried to explain it to me when i asked him the very same question you now pose. You know hes the kind of guy who is constantly looking for ways to improve, once he saw what shaolin wushu is capable of doing for an individual, he decided it would be good for his training and life in general, (can you blame him?) Of course he has put in so much time to his TKD, he cannot just stop, especially when hes really good.

[red5angel]

These days it's cheaper to have several classes held in one school. The longfist school I attended had Traditional and Wushu training from one teacher. Taichi from the same teacher and another instructor taught TKD.

[Fu-Pow]

Originally posted by PangQuan
Because he views it as this, "TKD and other various similar sport related martial arts are for people, TCMA is for martial artists" Thats the way he tried to explain it to me when i asked him the very same question you now pose. You know hes the kind of guy who is constantly looking for ways to improve, once he saw what shaolin wushu is capable of doing for an individual, he decided it would be good for his training and life in general, (can you blame him?) Of course he has put in so much time to his TKD, he cannot just stop, especially when hes really good.

No disrespect. But that was my original point. It's not I think that TKD is completely ineffective as a martial art. Its that there are arts that are more effective. I agree, whether or not you reach the potential in any given art is entirely up to you. However, I think that there are arts that have a higher "ceiling" on the potential you can reach. If that makes sense.

[PangQuan]

I would like to hear the results of your metting, when it takes place (if, that is). Unless of course you two would consider that too personal. red/fu

[PangQuan]

Originally posted by Fu-Pow
No disrespect. But that was my original point. It's not I think that TKD is completely ineffective as a martial art. Its that there are arts that are more effective. I agree, whether or not you reach the potential in any given art is entirely up to you. However, I think that there are arts that have a higher "ceiling" on the potential you can reach. If that makes sense.

That does make sense, the "ceiling" analogy is a good one. And I personally agree with that. Yet that does not in anyway, classify any other martial art as "crap". I believe that was a tad bit over the line. :)

[Fu-Pow]

Originally posted by PangQuan
That does make sense, the "ceiling" analogy is a good one. And I personally agree with that. Yet that does not in anyway, classify any other martial art as "crap". I believe that was a tad bit over the line. :)

Again, no disrespect.

Read carefully what I wrote:


Secondly, Tae Kwon Do is mostly crap. Move on to something better whether that is Kung Fu, Traditional Karate, Muy Thai or what have you.

That mostly, "mostly" gets me off the hook
;) .

And someone agreed that "mostly" Tae Kwon Do schools are crap. But as Kung Lek pointed out there are crap versions of everything. Which is definitely true.

So that brings us back to the point we just discussed.

Some arts have a higher potential than others, whether or not you realize that potential is up to you.

Why waste your time with something that has a "low ceiling" when you could invest more of your time into something that would allow you to reach a higher potential?

I wrestle with this question all the time when deciding whether to focus more of my time on my Taiji or my Choy Lay Fut.

I believe Taiji has a higher potential for me. However, Choy Lay Fut is something that I've invested a lot of time in and IMO I've gotten pretty good at.

[red5angel]

No disrespect. But that was my original point. It's not I think that TKD is completely ineffective as a martial art


Secondly, Tae Kwon Do is mostly crap. Move on to something better whether that is Kung Fu, Traditional Karate, Muy Thai or what have you.


But I've yet to see any Tae Kwon Do that I didn't eventually come to think was crap.


Tae Kwon Do is a good art for kids, mostly because IMO it is not as practical and there is less chance of them hurting someone

[morbicid]

you guys have discussed quite a bit since i started this thread

I can assure you all that there are just as many hand techniques in tkd as kicking techniqes. This includes finger jabs, palm strikes, joint locks, etc. The total number of kicking and punching techniques falls somewhere near 5 or 6 hundred (variations among diff. schools). There are, in fact, only so many ways the human body can move. Therefore, at an advanced level of training, there will be MANY similarities between diff. martial arts.

for demonstrational purposes (not practical), you will find 540 and 720 degree jump spinning kicks, backflips, etc. Some schools allow a lot of creativity, which only limits the student to his own acrobatic abilities.

For sport (sparring), you will mostly see simple roundhouse and some very basic spin kicks. Hand techniques do not score points, so you don't see them very much. It is merely a game designed to train reflexes and reation time.

In a fight however, you should see low kicks, eye pokes, groin kicks, throat punches etc. A real life situation calls for rigid techniques, if you are in real danger... this applies to most martial arts. Do not confuse sport with real-life application

[Fu-Pow]

Originally posted by morbicid
[B]

For sport (sparring), you will mostly see simple roundhouse and some very basic spin kicks. Hand techniques do not score points, so you don't see them very much. It is merely a game designed to train reflexes and reation time.

If hand techniques receive equal emphasis then why don't hand techniques score points during sparring? That just seems weird to restrict half of your arsenal when sparring. :confused: Is there a reason for this?

[morbicid]

That is a good question - and i'm not sure why it came to evolve that way. Only a "staggering punch" will score you a point. Which is often left to the judge's discretion.

I would say that tkd is to feet what boxing is to hands. The judges wanted a sport that emphasizes well placed kicking techniques. Fighters are certainly encouraged to kick if most punches won't score.

Also, tkd is more of a "distance closing" sport. Once fighters get tied up, in close, they are usually broken up. I've found that trying to close a distance of say 3 or 4 feet with a punch will often, but not always, make you eat a kick to the face or gut. Of coarse, there are always exceptions. And there are those who have made quite a name for themselves for their ability to win tkd matches with their hands (Such as Michael Jai White, who played mike tyson in the HBO Biography film "Tyson").

Once again, not to be confused with real life application. ;) I do love the game. And you can play it a lot longer than you can go around fighting people.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by morbicid
For sport (sparring), you will mostly see simple roundhouse and some very basic spin kicks. Hand techniques do not score points, so you don't see them very much. It is merely a game designed to train reflexes and reation time.

In a fight however, you should see low kicks, eye pokes, groin kicks, throat punches etc. A real life situation calls for rigid techniques, if you are in real danger... this applies to most martial arts. Do not confuse sport with real-life application

But you fight how you train - chances are that if you do lots of kicks and few punches in sparring, you will do the same in the street. That's not necessarily a bad think though - I've seen a tkd black belt kick butt in a fight using those kicks. on the same token, I've also seen one get mauled. It's all in how you use what you've got.

[morbicid]

I'm convinced that it's all about timing.

not the techniques you use, but when you use them... regardless of style. The sloppiest, most pathetic technique in the world can end a fight if executed at the right time.

[PangQuan]

Originally posted by morbicid
I'm convinced that it's all about timing.

not the techniques you use, but when you use them... regardless of style. The sloppiest, most pathetic technique in the world can end a fight if executed at the right time.

True dat. Its like women, ask em how they are doing at the wrong time, and boy, your gonna get an ear full, do it at the right time and you will get a smile and a "good, thanks"

[norther practitioner]

Originally posted by morbicid
I'm convinced that it's all about timing.

not the techniques you use, but when you use them... regardless of style. The sloppiest, most pathetic technique in the world can end a fight if executed at the right time.

Yeah, but a great technique, at the wrong time, while it might not win you the fight, it may help lead you in that direction.

[morbicid]

i dont really understand what you mean. Example ?

[PangQuan]

like an awsome side kick done at the wrong time may make your oppent falter when your intention was to break his ribs, yet that falter may give you an opening to follow through with another technique thus acomplishing your original goal. just an example. I think this is kind of what NP meant.

[morbicid]

couldn't a crappy side kick have the same effect ?

[PangQuan]

Possibly, unless your opponent is a seasoned fighter, then he will spot the crap before it can hit his boot, get what i mean? But if it is a legit throw, its like a good fake, on accident though.