Of Martial Arts and Liberty

[Melissa]

Of Martial Arts and Liberty

I started out in the martial arts here in the west Denver area, 6 ½ years ago at the age of 50. I was with my first school for 4 ¾ years but then things went downhill there. Then I tried another school for 1¼ year but that didn't work out either. Since then I've tried two other schools and looked at three more but still haven't gotten back
into martial arts again and it's disturbing me because I really loved it, when I felt like it was good for me.

But it seems like schools are their own worst enemies ( aren't we all! ). At best, with any school I've tried, it always seemed like a 60/40 situation, at best 70/30, where I liked most of what was going on, but had significant problems with the other part.

Eventually the significant problem aspect would get to where I just couldn't enjoy the place anymore and had to move on. It's like a pair of shoes that mostly fits but just rubs you wrong in certain places, and after awhile it starts getting so sore that you don't feel like wearing them anymore.

I'm sure working people who have never even studied martial arts, can still relate to that, in the perspective of the workplace. It happens with jobs too, doesn't it.

One disturbing thing I've noticed when I was looking at the last 2 schools I've visited, was that they both indicated that their student base has fallen off for about the last 7 months. Is this just a local thing or national? I wonder.

I can think of a couple of reasons for it though, both possibly nationwide.

The first is the "everybody else's style sucks" problem. It seems that, at every school I've been with, if you talk about other schools or styles, they're always quick to bash the other ones and say how they suck. It's not just the students doing this, the teachers too. But think about that. If lots of students and teachers are going around saying how every other style and school sucks, what impression
does the public get of martial arts? Why they all must suck. No wonder the numbers of students are falling off!

I've always looked with trepidation at such practices because it makes the whole field look bad. There's an old saying, that "you don't have to put out someone else's light, for yours to shine", and this is true everywhere, and we may be seeing the results of such negativity now in
the martial arts.

And the other possible reason I'm thinking of, for the fall off of students, would make that first reason even more crucial to alleviate. One frustrated teacher couldn't understand why the number of students would be falling off, especially in light of the national experience of 9/11. Why wouldn't many, many more people be interested in the empowerment that martial arts training offers?

Well for one thing, the economy also took a dive after 9/11 and for most people, putting food on the table is a much higher priority than paying for martial arts training. The jobs just haven't been there, from what I've seen since 9/11. The Sunday Denver Post jobs section is pathetic, only about 2 pages now? I can remember times when it was maybe 15-20 pages.

9/11 was a traumatic event for this country and I think it really traumatized and depressed most people. It left us feeling vulnerable and afraid, in ways we'd never felt that way before, and I think an awful lot of people have been pretty depressed ever since. And it's not something the average person sees martial arts training as being a
cure for, after all these were terrorists doing mass murder, not just attacking individual people on the street with their fists. And the average person has no idea what a powerful antidepressant and how uplifting martial arts can be, at it's best.

But I think it also has to be understood in the political context. Socialism has been slowly taking over this country for the last 40 years ( some would say twice that long ), in the guise of liberalism. A propaganda machine has been at work, with most of the news media at the center of it, and they've been making most Americans less independent and more like servile sheep.

What was the message sent after 9/11? It wasn't that everyone should arm and train in martial arts, so they could defend themselves, it was that the responsibility for protecting us doesn't lie with the independence of the individual, in the truest original American sense.
No, the message is that the government is the sole shepherd responsible for protecting the sheep from wolves. The government should spend massive amounts of money on what's really an impossible task anyway.

The people are ready to give up anything, pay any price, just so they never have to see something like 9/11 ( or worse! ) happen again, not realizing it's an impossible task, for individuals and certainly for the government.

With all the hundreds of billions spent on security since 9/11, who is more secure from it? Why the government is! "To serve and protect" the government, that should be the slogan! With all that money spent, not a single American on the street is anymore safe than they used to be,
but we have lost more freedom.

"Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." - Benjamin Franklin

I've observed in previous posts to this blog, that it seems like the global socialists are working symbiotically with Al Qaeda to bring down the west, because it serves their common interests.

Socialists have always known that they had to destroy to conquer. ( Hitler, a "Nationalist Socialist" knew it too. ) They have to bring the whole system to it's knees, and then take it over, like they did in Germany, Russia, China, Cuba, Vietnam, and so many other places. So who better to help them with that than Al Qaeda?

So all the while, the liberals ( socialists ) are cranking on the biased media propaganda machine, putting out that brainwashing message that people can't possibly be free and independent anymore, not in this technological age, no. They have to depend on government to protect them, while being increasingly disarmed and helpless themselves. Dependent on the shepherd to protect them, as servile sheep.

So it's no wonder that interest in the martial arts may be waning. First the schools are helping in their own demise from within, and then the whole culture is being brainwashed to be dependent and servile. Look at UK, where it's practically illegal to defend oneself, and certainly not if there's a risk of hurting the criminal.

And they've been propagating that attitude over to us here in the states for years now. Another gunban, more laws that say people can't defend themselves.

If a schoolyard bully picks on a good kid and the good kid fights back, the socialists running the schools suspend them both for "violence", never once differentiating between the initiation of force, and defensive or retaliatory force. That's a libertarian thing, no one wants any part of that! Liberalism ( socialism ) is the opposite of libertarianism.

So here we are, with martial arts teachers who can't understand why interest seems to be waning, but it seems very apparent to me. Must just be my unusual perspective, I suppose.

But if I were them, I'd work hard to see that teachers and students would quit bashing other schools and styles, and I'd work hard to improve that 60/40 problem and increase the good things about their schools while reducing the things that turn people off. And I'd work hard to teach people about the real principles of liberty and the spirit of independence that originally made this country so great.

It astounds me that any martial arts teacher could be a liberal ( socialist ) but I've seen it. From my libertarian Objectivist perspective it's like working against one's own self interest, but hey, people do that all the time, don't they, without even realizing it.

But I think the schools and teachers need to step back and take a long hard look at what they're doing, if the martial arts are to be saved in this country, along with our liberty and independence. Otherwise they could both die out, and few people might ever understand why.

I actually have a dream for a new school along these lines, something I call my "School of Dreams" ( build it and they will come ), and I envision building it with the philosophy I've learned about from Objectivism and true libertarianism, which I've put together into a proposed Objective Liberty Party.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ Objective_Liberty_Party/

I also envision it being an American shaolin thing, sort of a
combination of the shaolin and the Jedi from Star wars. I think if it were to work out and propagate, it could have the potential of saving this country, possibly the whole world, from what I sense could be the coming dark ages that socialism could sink us into. And there isn't much time, I think the plunge into darkness has been accelerated since 9/11.

So I'm looking for people who understand liberty and how the martial arts could be worked into this ambitious plan of mine, people who would be willing to fund and teach it, and promote it across the land. People for whom martial arts and liberty are a passion. Imagine that.

http://www.lakewoodcolorado.com/AmericanShaolin.htm
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Martial_Arts_School_of_Dream/

"All men dream: but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds wake in the day to find that it was vanity: but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act their dream with open eyes, to make it possible." - T.E. Lawrence [1888-1935]

Yours In Liberty, Melissa - Colorado, U.S.A.
Management Consultant

[norther practitioner]

wow, another coloradian....


welcome to the board.

[norther practitioner]

A few questions

1. Would you need to fall into the polical view category to practice in this school?

2. Would you assume that anyone who classifies themselves of left of central would be a socialist?

3. Why would social beliefs in the political nature effect ones ability to transmit a skill?

[Melissa]

Originally posted by MasterKiller
Gee, what a refreshingingly unbiased point of view... :rolleyes:


Bias? Mea culpa, I'm biased pro-liberty and against tyranny. No apologies for that.

[Melissa]

Originally posted by norther practitioner
A few questions

1. Would you need to fall into the polical view category to practice in this school?

No, but the school would be run that way.


2. Would you assume that anyone who classifies themselves of left of central would be a socialist?

I think that liberals are nowdays, and I even used to be one, until some things changed me.


3. Why would social beliefs in the political nature effect ones ability to transmit a skill?

They wouldn't, but they do influence the whole ambiance of a school. At one school I attended, for example, the teachers made faces at Bush before the elections, and actually implied that we should vote for Kerry. I've also seen teachers that pushed animal superiority causes in their school. ( what some people call animal rights but it was really superiority )

It's also not in the self interest of a school, IMO, to support causes which in the long run would harm the martial arts, for example dependency on government to protect people, and pacifism at any cost, as I mentioned in my post.

[norther practitioner]

Why not just a policy of keeping the politics out of the school?

[tug]

FYI - be careful where you tread here, melissa, politics and martial arts just don't seem to mix well, and there are a lot of strong opinions around here. (which is why I usually don't post to political threads)

Anyway, good to have you. Please don't take offense, but given your age and gender, I am very interested in your experiences in martial arts and otherwise.

[norther practitioner]

It seems to me that you are trying to alienate people as you once felt alienated in politcal view at a martial art school. Knowing the Denver area, I can prob. guess in a few shots where you have studied.... Either way, as tug said, tread lightly when it comes to politics around here. It can tend to get ugly. Come down to Federal this weekend, there should be a lot of lion dances and demos and such.

[Melissa]

Originally posted by norther practitioner
Why not just a policy of keeping the politics out of the school?

Because everything the teachers and the school do, either helps or hurts the interests of martial arts.

[Melissa]

Originally posted by tug
FYI - be careful where you tread here, melissa, politics and martial arts just don't seem to mix well, and there are a lot of strong opinions around here. (which is why I usually don't post to political threads)

Anyway, good to have you. Please don't take offense, but given your age and gender, I am very interested in your experiences in martial arts and otherwise.

http://www.lakewoodcolorado.net/ussd.htm
http://www.lakewoodcolorado.net/csc.htm

I left the later one in October of last year and tried another school for a couple of months, then another one for a month, and I'm now without anything and very frustrated.

[norther practitioner]

The teachers should really know their stuff and not confuse students with different teachers who teach the same material all kinds of different ways.


Be careful with stuff like this, there is a difference to teaching styles that will help some people learn. On my college ski team, my coach would try to get me to do something, and explain, and explain, then I'd look at the assistant coach, he'd say the same thing, a different way, then I'd be like Oh... I've had this same experience with a lot of stuff in the martial arts.

[MasterKiller]

Originally posted by Melissa
http://www.lakewoodcolorado.net/ussd.htm
http://www.lakewoodcolorado.net/csc.htm

I left the later one in October of last year and tried another school for a couple of months, then another one for a month, and I'm now without anything and very frustrated. USSD straight to CSC. Oh man.

[norther practitioner]

Because everything the teachers and the school do, either helps or hurts the interests of martial arts.

You're saying that your opinion is the best for the martial arts, and that is the one that should be associated with this school?

In case anyone wants to skip it, she's put in time with USSD and Shaolin Do.

[Melissa]

Originally posted by MasterKiller
USSD straight to CSC. Oh man.

Elaborate. :)

[tug]

(shaolin-do or not, I believe she will hand you your a$$)

[norther practitioner]

Melissa, there have been many a thread, even one current thread on Shaolin do (on the Shaolin forum), and a few on USSD in the past (which is just a bunk point to many now). In lew of keeping your thread on topic, lets either start a new thread or bring it to another thread more relevant.

[MasterKiller]

Elaborate. The origins and practices of these systems are highly contested and debated in Chinese Martial Arts circles. There is a seacrh function on the top of your screen. Use to search for anything containing Shaolin-Do, Sin The, USSD, or Steve Demasco.


Originally posted by tug
(shaolin-do or not, I believe she will hand you your a$$) Anytime a 57 year-old woman beats me down, I'll change my screen name to MasterBater. No offense intended, Melissa.

[Melissa]

Originally posted by MasterKiller
The origins and practices of these systems are highly contested and debated in Chinese Martial Arts circles. There is a seacrh function on the top of your screen. Use to search for anything containing Shaolin-Do, Sin The, USSD, or Steve Demasco.


Oh my.


Anytime a 57 year-old woman beats me down, I'll change my screen name to MasterBater. No offense intended, Melissa.


:D

[Melissa]

Originally posted by norther practitioner
Melissa, there have been many a thread, even one current thread on Shaolin do (on the Shaolin forum), and a few on USSD in the past (which is just a bunk point to many now). In lew of keeping your thread on topic, lets either start a new thread or bring it to another thread more relevant.


Ok, please start one, I'm curious now. I did a quick search and there's massive random amounts of material so I'm not sure what you were alluding to.

[FatherDog]

Originally posted by Melissa

But I think it also has to be understood in the political context. Socialism has been slowly taking over this country for the last 40 years ( some would say twice that long ), in the guise of liberalism. A propaganda machine has been at work, with most of the news media at the center of it, and they've been making most Americans less independent and more like servile sheep.

What was the message sent after 9/11? It wasn't that everyone should arm and train in martial arts, so they could defend themselves, it was that the responsibility for protecting us doesn't lie with the independence of the individual, in the truest original American sense.
No, the message is that the government is the sole shepherd responsible for protecting the sheep from wolves. The government should spend massive amounts of money on what's really an impossible task anyway.

The people are ready to give up anything, pay any price, just so they never have to see something like 9/11 ( or worse! ) happen again, not realizing it's an impossible task, for individuals and certainly for the government.

With all the hundreds of billions spent on security since 9/11, who is more secure from it? Why the government is! "To serve and protect" the government, that should be the slogan! With all that money spent, not a single American on the street is anymore safe than they used to be,
but we have lost more freedom.

"Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." - Benjamin Franklin

I've observed in previous posts to this blog, that it seems like the global socialists are working symbiotically with Al Qaeda to bring down the west, because it serves their common interests.

Socialists have always known that they had to destroy to conquer. ( Hitler, a "Nationalist Socialist" knew it too. ) They have to bring the whole system to it's knees, and then take it over, like they did in Germany, Russia, China, Cuba, Vietnam, and so many other places. So who better to help them with that than Al Qaeda?

So all the while, the liberals ( socialists ) are cranking on the biased media propaganda machine, putting out that brainwashing message that people can't possibly be free and independent anymore, not in this technological age, no. They have to depend on government to protect them, while being increasingly disarmed and helpless themselves. Dependent on the shepherd to protect them, as servile sheep.

If being an Objectivist wasn't enough to dismiss you as a crank (and it isn't.... quite) blaming the millions in spending on government security by a neoconservative Republican administration on liberals and socialists, equating liberals with socialists, equating socialists with Nazis (here's a hint - National Socialism wasn't socialism, any more than the People's Republic of China is a Republic) and claiming that socialists and Al Queda have any common ground whatsoever would be more than enough.

[norther practitioner]

I propose that the school be called the " American Shaolin Academy ", or ASA. It will be shaolin style, customized for Americans and promoted not just as training but as an actual lifestyle with philosophy being taught as part of the classes, teaching people sound moral principles based in Chinese ch’an ( zen ) philosophy and wisdom, Objectivist ethics ( the philosophy of Ayn Rand, based on rational self interest ) , much of which was derrived from the ideas of Thomas Jefferson, and the basic principles of individualism and liberty. The aim would be for students to eventually become modern "Jedi" style Shaolin knights in the sense of the Star Wars movies and the spirit of the ancient Shaolin. Good people doing good things in the world and working for true liberty based in inalienable individual rights. Dignity and respect will be shown to all good people and the school will be accepting of people of all races, religions, national origins, colors and sexual orientations.

woh... Um, so some of this seems pretty cool.... but it seems that you are almost trying to gather an army (an evil army to the "socialist") of whatever polical view you have.

[Melissa]

Originally posted by MasterKiller
The origins and practices of these systems are highly contested and debated in Chinese Martial Arts circles. ...



By the way, from everything I've heard, it seems like anything and everything is debatable in martial arts circles. :)

[brothernumber9]

Is there an assumption, or an observation from experience, that these martial arts schools and perhaps most martial arts schools instill the discipline, morality, confidence, and independence that I assume would be general human guidelines or resulting attributes/behaviors for this objective socialist marital arts school(s)? Or do I assume too much. The whole shaolin/jedi aspect brings up hokey images in my head. I'm sure it was just a sort of ideal representation of the positive aspects garnered from each.

I don't know about Denver, but there are schools that already function better than 70/30 of what I assume Melissa is looking for in a martial arts school; I may be assuming too much again; that don't bad mouth (too much) other schools, and don't force or subvert beleifs to those that don't want to accept any particular part of what is taught or open to learn.

[tug]

Anytime a 57 year-old woman beats me down, I'll change my screen name to MasterBater. No offense intended, Melissa.

Can't wait to see it!














I'm out!!

[norther practitioner]

It will be shaolin style, customized for Americans

lol:D

I think you've already studied two of them...:p

Joking aside, what would be customized for Americans, the forms or the rules for sparring?

[norther practitioner]

It will be shaolin style

which one?

[red5angel]

I'm torn on where to start on this thread so I will start with this:


I'll change my screen name to MasterBater.

that's pretty much how I see it anyway ;)

So if I'm reading you right Melissa, you want to start a martial arts school based on certain political principles?





By the way, from everything I've heard, it seems like anything and everything is debatable in martial arts circles.

I'ts a fundamental truth of the martial arts! :D

[Jhapa]

here are couple of long threads on SD, it's a long read.

http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=32782

http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=34962

[tug]

Melissa, it seems you have started something substantial here.

Props, and keep discussing!!

[red5angel]

Socialism has been slowly taking over this country for the last 40 years ( some would say twice that long ), in the guise of liberalism. A propaganda machine has been at work, with most of the news media at the center of it, and they've been making most Americans less independent and more like servile sheep.

Two things, Socialism isn't all that bad. I've said it before and I'll say it again, I think that the economy should be kept capitalist and government and medical quarters should be nationalised.

But as far as Americans being sheep.....That's been going on for decades :)



not realizing it's an impossible task, for individuals and certainly for the government.

I'm not sure I'd agree it was impossible. For certain I don't think it's 100%, but you'll notice that since 9/11/01, it's been pretty quiet on that front.


I've observed in previous posts to this blog, that it seems like the global socialists are working symbiotically with Al Qaeda to bring down the west, because it serves their common interests.


France anyway, but that's because we blew their cover in Iraq :D


So all the while, the liberals ( socialists ) are cranking on the biased media propaganda machine, putting out that brainwashing message that people can't possibly be free and independent anymore, not in this technological age, no

I see you've been lurking on this forum for a while! :D :P


I think you have some interesting ideas but I think mixing politics and martial arts is a disaster. If you haven't been on this board long, spend a month or two participating in the politically based threads to see what I mean.

Personally I think a good martial arts school should be devoid of political or religious doctrine. For one, you're going to attract extremists, or those leading towards extreme views. The same sort of people are going to automatically devolve and apropriate the first issue you have, that of tearing apart those things which are not them. Suddenly not only will your school be filled with people who strongly identify with your political bent, but that sort of identity will most likely spread to other things. People like that often need to beling and part of the human drive to belong is to cast those who do not belong, aspersions.

[Melissa]

Originally posted by tug
Melissa, it seems you have started something substantial here.

Props, and keep discussing!!

"They do not argue. No one argues with them." -- The Tao

I didn't come to argue. I realize everything is debatable and apparently everyone here will debate everything. :)

I just wanted to post my piece and I did. Take care. :)

[red5angel]

sometimes it's not about arguing but about expounding on what you're trying to say. I find I learn the most in a discussion then any other way.

Posting your ideas and not providing any further input accomplishes nothing.

[Melissa]

Originally posted by red5angel
sometimes it's not about arguing but about expounding on what you're trying to say. I find I learn the most in a discussion then any other way.

Posting your ideas and not providing any further input accomplishes nothing.

Ok, but no matter what I say, people go off on half a dozen tangents with it, and twist it into something I didn't say. All I was saying was that I thought a school should be run as a business under the principles of liberty, not that politics should be pushed on students or even discussed with them.

Anyway I'm out of here.

[red5angel]

Ok, but no matter what I say, people go off on half a dozen tangents with it, and twist it into something I didn't say. All I was saying was that I thought a school should be run as a business under the principles of liberty, not that politics should be pushed on students or even discussed with them.

sure but that's why you discuss it. You say something and we interpret it how we're gonna interpret it. If that's wrong, it's important for you to atleast get those things straight, in my opinion.
I certainly hope you're not running away from it because some of us don't agree with you. It seemed like it was panning out to be an interesting discussion.

[tug]

Anyway I'm out of here

No, don't go! I'm with Red, this is quite interesting.

[Melissa]

Originally posted by tug
No, don't go! I'm with Red, this is quite interesting.


How so? I explained that I'm not into pushing politics in the school, but want to use Objectivist libertarian philosophy to run it with.

I have a vision for a dream school that apparently no one else cares about. If I win the big Powerball I intend to build it. Otherwise it's meaningless, I suppose.

What else is there to discuss?

[red5angel]

Melissa, I get this strange sort of picture of you. On the one hand you have these websites, and a strong sense of what it is you're looking for. On the other it seems that when you're challenged on your beliefs - and don't get me wrong, other then a couple oif asshats on this forum, and there are plenty - I think most of us on this thread are just interested to hear more of what you are trying to say. I admit I don't completely understand what you are shooting for and so have tried to open a dialogue with you to see what more you have to say about it. With kungfu and with politics you have to be prepared to at the least, just explain yourself more, if not defend yourself from those who do not agree with you.

[norther practitioner]

How can I safetly assume that when in your first post, you explained how evil socialists are, you wouldn't look at someone differently?

[morbicid]

perhaps with the increased security in this country, people feel that it isn't quite as necessary to defend themselves from being physically attacked. Although I doubt it. Just another perspective.

However, I also serious doubt that the lack of interest in MA has much to do with government control and "brain washing". As long as there are still muggings and fights on the streets, this shows that the american people still have some "fight" in them. As even the bad guys in these situations represent Americans.

Although it would be quite a dream to live in such a non-violent society that there is no longer a need for self defense.

Mainly, what I see is a shift of interest from Traditional Martial Arts to the new, more tangible competitive martial arts of these times. Brazilian Jiu Jitsu is booming, as are many types of UFC type fighting etc. It seems that Americans have more faith in these systems as they've been proven to work in major televised events (UFC). Just stirring up the pot I suppose.

[Starchaser107]

am I an evil socialist?:(

[norther practitioner]

Yes star, you most certainly are...

[Starchaser107]

why don't they like me :(

[wdl]

I don't really see the need in creating another set of MA schools when some common sense in respecting one another will do.

The problem I see with creating a school governed out of objectivity and libertarian principles is a clear sense of authority. How would a ruleset created in this fashion change things? He who owns the school still owns the school and runs the show.

-Will

[Fu-Pow]

I see objectivism as being kind of a dead end. Been there done that.

The egoic-rational worldview is an important stepping stone on the pathway of liberation, however, it has it own problems and limitations.

The next step on the pathway to liberation is pluralistic relativism, not necessarily socialism. Pluralistic relativism is the worldview that pervades academy at the moment (not socialism.)

It says that Truth is not absolute but is rather contextual. But again pluralistic relativism has its own limitations, mainly that it critiques the worldview that any one view point is more valid that the other. However, by doing so it claims its own viewpoint as the most valid. Hence a contradiction.....

Anyways, I'm not sure where I'm going with this. Just had to put in my two cents.

Basically, some of the aims of "objectivism" you might want to include in your school eg goal setting, self-esteem building, self-discipline, etc.

However, there are levels beyond that.....way beyond that.

Peace.

;)

[SPJ]

It is a good topic.

However, there are so many topics covered. It is very difficult to respond to all.

I will try.

On 9-11, The WTC was a symbol of capitalism or free market economy. It too also represented a power. Adam Smith is to let the market determine the price and cost of goods and services. This is the best or most efficency to bring the best service and lowest cost of goods to the consumers.

WTC was a target for many and many groups for one reason or another.

On the other hand, WTC also represents human spirits. That people may come together without borders; trade and do business together.

The economy of 21 century.

China becomes the factory of the world. EU and NAFTA are twin markets conglomerated on either side of the Atlantic.

China factor is not to be ignored.

Boeing lost business to Air bus. Just you wait, in 10 to 20 years. China made cars and airplanes will win business over Airbus.

The governments lost control of its borders and economy literally. GATT and now WTO.

Money follows money. Adam Smiths.

We see more liberty than any other periods in human history.

Internet gives instant info faster than newspaper, radio or TV.

European use Euro dollar. They call themself citizen of EU. French, German schools teach German and French. There is no border among EU. The only distinction is the lingo and culture.

Heck, culture is merging, too.

Everyone is wearing Nike, listening to Sony, driving Honda, from Paris, Berlin, Moscow, all the way to Beijing and Shanghai.

The world is changing fast before we can blink our eyes.

[SimonM]

Your attempt to shape discourse in such a manner as to equate liberalism (by way of socialism) with Naziism is noted. Twerp.

I'm Socialist and proud of it and I hate right wing bloody fachists who like to call Socialists Nazis. Hitler was no socialist.

And next time you start another stupid vitriolic bash the left thread please put the letters OT in front of it.

[SPJ]

Loss of the government control over its own fate.

The undercurrent will rise as more restrictions.

No more free trade, no dumping, imposed tariff etc.

The world may lose WTC twin towers.

The world is still heading toward what WTC represents.

[SPJ]

So far I cover economy liberty.

Political liberty next time.

[SimonM]

Originally posted by SPJ


No more free trade, no dumping, imposed tariff etc.



The end of NAFTA is one of my sincerest wishes.

[SPJ]

Indiviualism vs socialism.

Like it or not. People are social animals and flourish as a group.

Social circles, from friends, family, school, church, communities, city, state, country and planet earth.

If you put several people together, there would be agreements, pact or arrangements that bind us together.

If the farmer does not farm, if the teacher does not teach, if the soldier does not fight, if the police does not patrol, if ---

And yes, we are in stone age. We hunt, we farm, we fight, we defend, we --- all in a day's work.

So there is a need to have a society.

Comes with it the need to have a social pact.

[SPJ]

What form of a pact?

If people elected to represent the people, or the money helps them elected?

The representatives are representing interests of people or business or special interests group?

Check and balance.

Yes, the president elected would work for the greater interests of the people and not special or business interests.

Who are the people?

Yes, individuals.

The living conditions of individuals, education, health care, retirement, etc.

[SPJ]

Lao Tzu had seen and experienced over 600 years of wars in China.

If he or they lived around 2400 years ago. China was in warring states from 3000 years ago till Qin Shi Huang united China.

Most of the great minds flourished during the darkest periods of Chinese history. One thousand years of never ending wars.

A government does few laws, few wars, few taxations, so that people have time to farm, study and contribute to economics.

Sun Tzu said Bin Zer Xiong Qi Yei.

Military or war is an dangerous instrument. Do not use it lightly. Do not use it often.

Why? properties destroyed, lives lost. For 10 months of warfare, it would take 25 to 30 years to rebuild or recuperate. Well, this was the number crushing 2400 years ago in China.

The lesson is not to engage in war lightly. Were the one thousand years of lessons lessons enough?

[SPJ]

If we gave birth and raised the boys and girls to be 20 years old and able to fight, ya, it takes 20 years to replace a young boy or girl lost in war. Actually, lives lost are not "replaceable".

Properties destroyed, where is the money to rebuild?

Not a single state survived with warring all the time during warring state period in China.

We have so much to lose in war than to gain.

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

Everyone has a favored "ism".. isms isolate and divide peoples, cultures already do that quite well.. why confuse the issue?

Next, we will see people asking us to take an oath.. "to protect truth, justice and the American way".. truth and justice, possibly (depending on one's interpretations).. but, the American way seems to be morphing into a beast whose intentions are not yet clear.. i suggest we reserve judgement until the "American way" is more clearly defined..

I applaud any school that promotes ethics (WuDe).. but, there is a difference between promoting and codifying.. i am deeply interested in philosophical implications relative to CMA.. but, i see philosophy as a dynamic and evolutionary process of "understanding", not a rigid code or independent system..

Liberty, ahhh... what is it? who truly has it? how much is enough? We compromise. Tax us enough to protect us from others (and ourselves, apparently) and provide services only affordable en mass.. Martial Arts and artists are notoriously independent entities (discounting mercenary situations).. i favor the solitude of my own journey over one designed with agendas, regardless of perceived merits.. Organizations become self-serving out of necessity and add another devisive aspect to the already chaotic issue laden existence we experience.. let common-sense, responsibility and accountability set the course.. let sincerity and compassion guide the journey, and if the path is blocked.. appropriately remove the obstacle or go around it.. If like-minded people agree on a purpose and goal, let it be evaluated in the interests of ALL people..

"ists" and "isms".. are meaningless without the individuals that empower them.. create yourself, or others will do it for you.. act in the interests of ALL peoples or the excluded will breed conflict..

There exists a process for assuring liberty, it IS political.. the problem is too little action.. too much fear of losing the comforts of existing society in favor of one more aligned with one's personal beliefs.. Liberty is bought and paid for with sacrifice.. the more liberty you have the less will be provided for you.. the issue is how much one is willing to assume responsibility for the liberties they desire..

It is not irrational to assume that 99% of martial arts taught in the US have already been "Americanized".. the distinction being preservation of a truly Traditional Style vs. developing a comprehensive personal defense system.. and, somewhere in the middle, the lovely placebo we usually think of as Martial Arts..

Be well...

[SPJ]

The world and the US;

The world was protesting against "non-stop" foreign military interventions.

Afganstan-> Iraq-> Iran (?)-> North Korea (?)-> Syria (?)-> ???

They pinned their hopes on American people to reverse the course.

However, President Bush was awarded a second chance by the second closest election in US history.

His cabinet is mostly with new faces but familiar.

Dr. Rice is to renew diplomatic initiatives to repair damages post Iraq intervention.

Rumsfeld is to stay put and stabilize Afganstan and Iraq.

---

[The Willow Sword]

You think too much. just train.


PEACE,,,TWS

[SPJ]

If it ain't broken, don't fix it.

Address to the Union.

To privatize or give liberty to the most successful social program in human history. The social security.

Democrats may only watch on the sideline. Because Republican has the house and senate.

Blowing federal deficits.

---

The truth is both absolute and relative. Why? the truth is all encompassing and universal.

----

[red5angel]

Melissa holds a very strong opinion

I have a hard time believing that. At the first sign of being challenged she gave up and bailed out. Either she was trying to just spout her message off as quickly as possible, or she was expecting a much different reaction to what she had to say. Either way, "strong" is not a word I would use to describe someones opinion when they have a hard time engaging in a discussion of it.
Frankly I'm disappointed. While I don't agree with most of what melissa has to say, I was tricked into believing she was interested in actually making a discussion of this.

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

"Faith without works is dead".. the desire for liberty without the deeds necessary to manifest it, is just an empty wish.. If you truly believe it, you will act upon your beliefs.. otherwise it is just idle chatter.. analyze your deeds, there is your beliefs..

To remain inactive in politics is to assert your concern is empty.. the Gov't is empowered mostly by lack of understanding the issues (or intentional issue deflections by the same gov't) AND by the lack of social conscience/action..

Liberty is for those willing to acquire it.. if it is "given" to you, you get what you pay for.. if you pay nothing you are only using the concept at the pleasure of the provider, it may be withdrawn..

Be well..

[SPJ]

Agreed.

To make a political process work or efficient, it needs the participation of the majority of the people.

People do worry about their health care and retirement.

The social security sytem should be left unchanged for the most part.

To tackle malpractice lawsuits to lower cost of health insurance and premium for practicing doctors. A good step in the right direction.

Every thing needs check and balance.

The truth is in the middle or relative.

If we go to extremes in either directions, we will then be in serious troubles.

[Ming Yue]

I was following this with interest. Initially it sounded like a big advertisement for her blog agenda, but I too hoped this would go somewhere. Perhaps she hasn't been challenged to this degree yet and is formulating a response. I was pleased to see SPJ and TaiChi Bob jump in, nice counterperspective.

Give her some time, she may be back...

[ZIM]

Interesting.

I don't see as many problems with mixing politics and martial arts, partly because so many of our arts were founded for the expressed purpose of upholding various political positions.

That said, it isn't seen so much nowadays. In the West, it seems the import of MAs was done with an emphasis on other aspects [religion, philosophy] possibly because some arts came in on the coat-tails of that larger interest for the first generation of teachers.

Speculation, I'll admit.

All of that said, one may agree or not with the particular viewpoint, but nothing stops you from forming an all-Lefty MA association or whatever. As a Libertarian, I suspect Melissa would have no problem whatever with that.

Might make for some awesome tourneys. :D

[norther practitioner]

I think we scared her away....

[Yum Cha]

God, give me strength to accept the things I cannot change, and to fight like hell against the things I can...

I'll bite....I love this kinda Sh1t.

Firstly, what sense is it in discussing MA when this post wasn't about MA. It was a self-promo for a right-wing blogger.

There are those who believe that in doing what is best for themselves, that they are dutifully riding Adam Smith's invisible hand and making the world a better place. Competition and self-interest bring about the best allocation of scarce resources for the betterment of society.

There are others that believe that human beings are not resources with a market value, and that they need a more managed allocation based upon need. That consensus, debate and compromise are the tools to measure the need and distribute the resources. Thy Brother's keeper.

Unfortunately, it appears education seems to be the province of the latter, and the enemy of the former.

To whit,

German National Socialism (NAZI) is "Socialism?" BWAAhahahahahahhhhh. I'm surprised more people didn't regurgitate on that. Why not just wear a sign around your neck that says, "I'm with stupid" and an arrow pointing up? I spent most my young adulthood in Germany with forces there to clean up that mess. Let me give you the education you should have had if you had graduated high school, if indeed you did.

You see, Nazi's were Facists, the antithesis of Socialists. Hitler, Mussolini and their "Mit Machers" were intent on binding government and corporations into a "benevolent" (ha!) totalitarian entity that would control the economy for the good of the leaders and their cadre, essentially managing the population as market resources. Sure, pump a few quick Reich Marks into their pockets, fire up a few industrial jobs building weapons, unite them against a common foe (the Jews, based upon visceral religious differentiations) and take them to war without a peep, you know, the Chosen People, preemptive self defense.....

So, by those criteria, by that simple example, do we see any parallels? Are you trying to say the Bush Government is Socialist too? BWAHAHAHahahahah.

Back in your Bloox.

So, based upon this total demonstration of ignorance, or worse, a badly veiled attempt to tar with a tainted brush, what else is your self-promotional diatribe worth? Probably just as little as your vain attempts to study MA. Be GONE! Good riddance to such garbage. Go back to your blogg where you belong, preach to the choir and go home feeling good about your self centered, greedy, grubby little life of avarice. Life Coach? I wonder if Goebbles ever considered himself a "Life Coach"...

Any reasonable individual knows that neither extreme is worthy, that there is a middle ground that will work the most good for the most people.

There are of course, many many people who are not interested in the greatest good, they are interested in their own "Lord of the Flies" preditation upon those whom they can overcome. Thus was the first confederation of spirits formed, to counter this Survival of the Fittest feral mentality.

Sure I lean Liberally, but I have conservative sympathies as well. I run a business. There is no granola in my home, no picture of Stalin over my hearth, no Fox on my TV and no Moore in my Video Collection. Its not about politics, its about perpetuation of ignorance in guise of knowledge, of self interest in guise of benevolence, of hate, racism and other sundry xenophobia in guise of responsibility.

Why the subterfuge, propaganda and misinformation? Lemmings? No, its because knowledge is power, ignorance is a weakness, evil preys on weakness and constantly must diffuse the light of truth. Make no mistake, true evil does exist.

I don't mind conflicting politics, that's the way its meant to be. If we are ever to have an informed debate on the values of our society, conservative and liberal, on change to meet a new world order, on TRUE Liberty and democracy, we can't afford such wolfs in sheeps clothing, managing linguistics, mis-informing with half-truths and short-sighted jingoistic song and dance, and worst of all, breeding separation, segregation and self interest. Gladstone and Disreali set the benchmark, and none have yet found their equal. Am I unreasonable? Well, lets have some reason and we'll see!

Just to perpetuate the topic a bit further, are there any mathematics/economics gurus out there that can succinctly explain why John Nash won the Nobel prize, what it was he proved? (He's the guy the book and movie "A Beautiful Mind" was written about).

[Mr Punch]

Originally posted by Melissa
But it seems like schools are their own worst enemies ( aren't we all! ). At best, with any school I've tried, it always seemed like a 60/40 situation, at best 70/30, where I liked most of what was going on, but had significant problems with the other part.In anyone with experience of martial arts, or as she says the workplace, I would say this could just as well be indicative of holding an extreme point of view which is therefore incompatible of fulfilling social relationship norms on an objective basis. You could counter that this would be losing your liberty if you felt you had nothing in common with the people surrounding you. I would say it's normal human give and take, and that without the objectivity and even a little bit of compromise you are not holding a libertarian point of view, but one of someone who wants the freedom but is not prepared to pay for it, at any level. This would mean you are also incapable of recognising freedoms in other people if they don't conform to your preconceived notion of freedom... which means that in turn you are following a knee-jerk pattern of belief without substantiation: a slave to your own ideal of freedom.

However, since this woman has only seven years tops experience in somewhat dubious MA, and her job is one of those phony 'leadership' jobs, advising the very sheep she despises who wouldn't exist if it weren't for her kind of dualistic point of view, I would just put this point of view down as part of a surprisingly scant life-experience (also based on her declaration of and wearing of her age as a badge as if it denotes some kind of useful experience) and naivity.

... There then follows a long and obvious, and mildly interesting comment on the state of MA studentship since 911.


Well for one thing, the economy also took a dive after 9/11 and for most people, putting food on the table is a much higher priority than paying for martial arts training. The jobs just haven't been there, from what I've seen since 9/11. The Sunday Denver Post jobs section is pathetic, only about 2 pages now? I can remember times when it was maybe 15-20 pages.Does anyone have the GDP for the last couple of years , or any other economic indicators? I'd be surprised if the economy has really taken such a dive. The dollar is weak for any number of reasons, including foreign exports of arms and training to countries like Syria by companies like Blackwater and Dyncorp but this doesn't effect the 'normal' person. Nor does it seem to effect the guys in charge with their $40 mill inaugurations and their huge unnaccountable contracts for destroying and rebuilding countries.

What will effect the 'normal person' however, and their pockets, is the climate of fear. While I'd guarantee that gun sales and home security sales have gone up, agreeing with Melissa on sheeplike mentalities, I would also suggest that the job market is always sluggish in times of political stress, and an unsure world. Thus the blame most certainly doesn't lie with these legions of socialists she says are leading the country, but with... er, the countries' leaders?

There are all manner of reasons why the job market could be slow: one of them is 911, some of them will be decisions by the current admin, very few of them will be hordes of socialists with their tacit support of international terrorists.


But I think it also has to be understood in the political context. Socialism has been slowly taking over this country for the last 40 years ( some would say twice that long ), in the guise of liberalism. A propaganda machine has been at work, with most of the news media at the center of it, and they've been making most Americans less independent and more like servile sheep.This is evidence of really being cracked, of really following knee-jerk nonsense without having the sense to make one's own judgments. The old communist scourge of the press... well I've also heard a lot about the rightwing Zionist stranglehold on the media, and the ultra-right Christian extremist media... and I tell you what I believe... something a lot more mundane and not very fun for people who watched too many sci-fi movies in the fifties, that the media is largely controlled by average, boring, selfish moneymakers, with more than a modicum of influence from the current government and the big businesses who are part of the same corporations. There is no conspiracy: don't watch the skies, watch your own attitudes!

Summing up the crux of this socialist scourge nonsense: where the hell are they? Are they really so clever as to remain completely hidden? Or are they even more cleverly pretending to be the neo-cons in the govt?! :D


What was the message sent after 9/11? It wasn't that everyone should arm and train in martial arts, so they could defend themselves, it was that the responsibility for protecting us doesn't lie with the independence of the individual, in the truest original American sense.It's really interesting that she says this. If I remember rightly, most MA schools reported a surge of membership after 911, as did gun clubs and sales. So what the clubs are now seeing is the return to the usual sluggish norm of fad hobbyists, themselves a higher than average occurance in mA schools. It's the turnover that's higher, not the drop-off rate. To many MA school owners who have not had any business or economic training and don't know how to keep or read records this may seem otherwise. Plus, even to those school owners who have attended some basic business classes at night-school, they would have had been taught the American standard business school practice of maximization of profits or turnover (McDojo business practice in MA terms) rather than one of the other more sensible business models leading to optimization and a more sustainable business plan than 'get-rich-quick'. Of course, I've never been to business school in the States, and I'm guessing, but based on talking with and dealing with a lot of American businessmen and their evangelistic business preaching models.

No, the message is that the government is the sole shepherd responsible for protecting the sheep from wolves. The government should spend massive amounts of money on what's really an impossible task anyway.Another obvious perspective, and one which I can largely agree with, except that the govt themselves were largely responsible for this POV with their media-circus of 'who was responsible' when all the time the general public didn't really believe that anyone was going to be held responsible... sure they can say this went wrong and that went wrong and although ultimately it wasn't really anyone's fault but the terrorists' there were some obvious miscarriages of justice, shady dealings and acts of gross incompetance on the US side that didn't help matters. Buuuut who cares? Nobody was held accountable; hell even the Pres (the son of Saddam Hussein's Number One Supporter, Business and Military advisor) got back in. There is never accountability in govt, but never before had it been so low.
The people are ready to give up anything, pay any price, ...but we have lost more freedom.

"Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." - Benjamin FranklinSo this next bit above is perfectly OK. I agree. But to associate it with some mythical socialist scourge is to let the govt off the hook again.
I've observed in previous posts to this blog, that it seems like the global socialists are working symbiotically with Al Qaeda to bring down the west, because it serves their common interests.This woman knows nothing about socialism, and nothing about Al Qaeda.
Socialists have always known that they had to destroy to conquer. ( Hitler, a "Nationalist Socialist" knew it too. ) They have to bring the whole system to it's knees, and then take it over, like they did in Germany, Russia, China, Cuba, Vietnam, and so many other places. So who better to help them with that than Al Qaeda?Again, paranoid fantasy. Too many B-movies. As already pointed out Hitler was not a socialist, although there were certain similarities with his political PsoV, nor was there a global conspiracy in these other places. Of course some of these people supported each other, but the so-called socialists who were in power in these countries often had very different agenda and were only forced together by lack of dialog and dualistic policies.
So all the while, the liberals ( socialists ) ... Dependent on the shepherd to protect them, as servile sheep.This bit's so 1950s it's embarrassing. and saying that liberals and socialists are the same is again naive, plain stupid, or just ignorant.

Look at UK, where it's practically illegal to defend oneself, and certainly not if there's a risk of hurting the criminal.As if she is not ignorant enough, now she's trying to show us some global ignorance. I wonder if she can show us the cases where this has been upheld? Or can she show us the law? The UK law on self defence is one of reasonable force, the same as in many of the States. The Tony Martin case to which she is probably referring as that's the typical knee-jerk case study (er... single case example) for this argument is so full of holes I could wash my vegetables in it.
Another gunban, more laws that say people can't defend themselves.Where?
...cont

edited for format

[Mr Punch]

Must just be my unusual perspective, I suppose.Not especially unusual, or was she being ironic? Certainly not unusual enough for me to want to increase the traffic on her blogs by actually clicking on one. And I'm with Red, she doesn't seem to have the balls to stick around and discuss now she's presented her view... just another blogger trolling for hits for her soapbox site.

Just thought I'd offer her a bit of a bashing, cos everyone else round here suddenly seems very polite for some reason. I'm going to do what I've just accused her of doing to, which is to bugger off after having posted a lot of passive-aggressive tripe, without being around to defend it! :D :p shrug! What the hey! I'm busy!
paraphrasing from Melissadreams... original spirit of america... dreaming... star wars... objective libertarian... dreams... jedi... etcThere is no conspiracy: don't watch the skies, watch your own attitudes!

[scotty1]

Look at UK, where it's practically illegal to defend oneself, and certainly not if there's a risk of hurting the criminal.

Not true. We can hit burglars with ashtrays if we want.

I think everyone's covered the rest of your post.

[red5angel]

there you go Mat, injecting common sense and an objective view on the subject. Shame on you ;)

[MoreMisfortune]

everybody should just question more ofently
what is really the use for sober phylosophical discussion?

none

carnival facts
well we were at this hotel. the white blonde receptionist was very cold and mean acting/looking.
so we began nicknaming her "Hitlers wife". Thanks to my cousin who likes history a lot that evolved to "Panzer tank" :D
we did this tour at the city on a van. the driver looked like a sort of hippy or ex-hippy (the hair, the beard, the slow talk, "nature" blah blah).
but at some point talking to my cousin he said his dad was a high rank on the military, from back in the dictaroship days. he commented something to the effect that things were much better and more functional in the country in those dicatorship days.
my cousin says he just agreed, you dont wanna risk arguing with that weird folk
that wasnt enough, at some point later the ex-hippy went further into his contradictory existance of being a hippy and a totalitarist nazi at the same time
he wondered and asked to my cousin "what would the world would be like if the germans had won WWII" before my cousin could ponderate on the subject he answered himself "the world would be a lot more well organizated" the not-so-ex-hippy said.

:D

[MoreMisfortune]

i forgot to add that i too find funny hitler being considered a "socialist"
lol i think its pure gold

now i gotta go, im hungry and i dont want the baby meat to burn

i also forgot i shouldnt be saying anything at all since im sober

[ZIM]

Originally posted by MoreMisfortune
i forgot to add that i too find funny hitler being considered a "socialist"
lol i think its pure gold
Not that it matters or anything, but just to throw it out:


"We are socialists, we are enemies of today's capitalistic economic system for the exploitation of the economically weak, with its unfair salaries, with its unseemly evaluation of a human being according to wealth and property instead of responsibility and performance, and we are all determined to destroy this system under all conditions." (Speech by Hitler of May 1, 1927. Quoted by Toland, 1976, p. 306)

:D

[red5angel]

"the world would be a lot more well organizated


This is actually probably true, but that doesn't mean it would be a better place.


The Nazis called themselves socialists, hence "Nazi", and thats' where people get confused.

[tug]

I think we scared her away....

Uhh, yeah.

[MoreMisfortune]

Originally posted by red5angel
This is actually probably true, but that doesn't mean it would be a better place.


The Nazis called themselves socialists, hence "Nazi", and thats' where people get confused.

exactly dude, he was pointing out as it being a good/better world solution
people are born confused, but this is just ridiculous
come on, nobody needs to be a scholar to know the difference

[rubthebuddha]

The Nazis called themselves socialists, hence "Nazi", and thats' where people get confused. and what does DPRC stand for again? ;)