Too many applications?

[web777]

There is usually more than 1 application per move. My question is does it ever go too far?? i.e. a block and strike (basic application) but the block can also be used as a throw or the block and the strike can be used as a joint lock...etc. Are we going off course of what the move was actually designed for? Are we making up new techiniques for an existing move? If so, there is techniques in everything such as brushing our teeth (elbows to the right, elbows down and spit at your apponent) or opening a car door. Am I looking too deep into kung fu?? Any input??

[MasterKiller]

Sometimes, a cigar is just a cigar.

[Pork Chop]

Well the method and the power help to define the shape... but even then there's still a bit of room for interpretation...

[ShaolinTiger00]

This is what happens when you're fighting an imaginary opponent.

[SaekSan]

"This is what happens when you're fighting an imaginary opponent."

WORD!

:D

[morbicid]

i suppose almost any bodily movement can be used to hurt someone if they're in the wrong place at the wrong time. (or is it right place at the right time ?)

Like if i go to open my car door, and some guy's face is in the way I might accidentally poke one of his eyes out right ?

Or if I were to kneel down to tie my shoe, I might unknowlingly evade a ninja's kick toward my head! Which would be totally sweet. From that point on I could name the technique as a "deadly ninja evading / shoe-tying multi-purpose technique!.

[red5angel]

I think part of being a martial artist is looking for and discovering adaptability.

For instance if you train a particulr punch, but find it also works wel in some instances as a lock or a block, then why not use it as such as well?

Not only that, but as you train all of these things, when you get into a situation where your using it, whether sparring, competition or real life, those little nuances may come out in that moment of decision.

Here's my opinion on simple vs complex and why most people really fail to get most TMA.

Sport fighting arts are designed to be used in a time constraint. They are also designed to train a person as quickly as possible to begin competing. Sports fighters also acknoweldge across the board that you're limited to the time you will be in your prime and able to compete at the best of you ability. This isn't a flaw, it's just what they do.
Most TMA, in theory are designed to be ways of fighting for life or death. Not only that but most TMA back in the day, whatever that is, were designed for people who pretty much dedicated their lives to it. Of course you didn't have TV, Radio, Movies and so on to distract you, so filling your space with martial training, even if you had a job that occupied long hours of your day, wasn't hard.
Many TMA are designed to eventually train you to adapt to any number of situations you may come across. This requires a serious amount of time and repetition to do effectively. this also requires the ability to adapt and to use a technique anyway you can find a use for it. Fighting is extremely dynamic, especially when you're in genuine conflict, and so you have to be prepared for anything.

[PangQuan]

I think red just pretty much summed it up with that last one. Could not have said it better myself.

[IronFist]

Actually I would agree with ST00 over Red :D

[red5angel]

other then a shot at traditional training I'm not sure I get ST00's point.

[morbicid]

it doesnt matter how you apply the technique... as long as u can get super p-- off and FLIP OUT (all the time). Is that what you're getting at web ?

[HearWa]

Actually, I've had a theory for awhile related to this issue I've wanted to try out.

What would be funny and interesting to do is learn some type of dance and try to interpret the "self defense" applications inherit in it. I really believe this is possible. Alot of martial artists seem to be masters of pulling something from nothing. This would be good if they made that something from nothing into something, but it always seems to end up to be nothing, or something close to it. Whew!

If you could use these applications, however, does this mean that good dancing = good self defense? This is a question I'll leave for the reader to decide. ;)

[web777]

Well... I sometimes find myself looking for the most abstract application for a specific move. Then I think to myself that I'm veering off to what I should be concentrating on - the opvious application.

[joedoe]

I noticed somthing interesting last night while watching some of our guys do a lion dance. I was thinking about how similar the lion dance is to capoeira - the drumming/music, the stylised fight/dance. Even some of the moves are similar.

Anyway, I will now return you to normal programming. :D

[IronFist]

Because every move doesn't have a million applications against a resisting, moving opponent who is trying to hit you back. If you hit your opponent that's good. However you end up hitting him is what you meant to do. A motion from a form does not have 10 different applications in a real fight because you'll never be in that position against an opponent who stays still long enough for you to do that.

[joedoe]

Originally posted by IronFist
Because every move doesn't have a million applications against a resisting, moving opponent who is trying to hit you back. If you hit your opponent that's good. However you end up hitting him is what you meant to do. A motion from a form does not have 10 different applications in a real fight because you'll never be in that position against an opponent who stays still long enough for you to do that.

But if you learn to understand how a punch can become a block and vice versa, then you can transition from attack to defence and back to attack very quickly and easily.

[morbicid]

a lot of this sounds great in theory, but i wouldnt be willing to try out all these different applications in a real life situation.

i believe i would be happy if i was lucky enough to apply a technique for its original intention against another skilled fighter in a fight...without wondering if i can transition my punch into a block at the last minute and maybe turn that block into some type of offensive attack at the same time.

[joedoe]

Originally posted by morbicid
a lot of this sounds great in theory, but i wouldnt be willing to try out all these different applications in a real life situation.

i believe i would be happy if i was lucky enough to apply a technique for its original intention against another skilled fighter in a fight...without wondering if i can transition my punch into a block at the last minute and maybe turn that block into some type of offensive attack at the same time.

True. However what I am getting at is that if you can train that into your reactions (and I have found I do this to a certain degree in sparring at least), then isn't that better?

Don't get me wrong, I agree with the less-is-more philosophy in this case, but the principle of it is not bad.

[morbicid]

i hear u, but is it really necessary to quote me ... right below my post ? :)

[joedoe]

I do that because numerous times I have replied to someone, only to have someone else reply to something else in the thread, so my reply looks out of place. It just makes it clear who I am replying to, that's all :)

[PHILBERT]

Originally posted by MasterKiller
Sometimes, a cigar is just a cigar.

But you can do more with a cigar than just smoke it.

[cerebus]

MK was right with the Freudian cigar quote. People often get too carried away with trying to make a simple technique into something complex. A punch turns into a complex join-lock throw with a simultaneous dim mak death-point strike. :rolleyes:

Sometimes a punch is just a punch.

[PHILBERT]

My gym teacher in Junior High would chew cigars. When he played golf, he'd put the cigar in his mouth and just bite down on it and chew. On the 9th hole he spit it out, put in another. Never smoked them.

[mickey]

web777,

To answer your question, it never goes too far. This is what learning is all about. Enjoy all that comes to you. The key is that you have to validate everything through trial and error.

Have tons of fun!

mickey

[IronFist]

Originally posted by PHILBERT
My gym teacher in Junior High would chew cigars. When he played golf, he'd put the cigar in his mouth and just bite down on it and chew. On the 9th hole he spit it out, put in another. Never smoked them.

Strange. Was it like half eaten through at this point? Can you still get cancer from eating cigars?

[joedoe]

yes

[count]

Nicely put cjurakpt. Maybe a bit wordy but...:p In all seriousness, nicely put.:)

web777, I'm not sure how long you have been learning. If you look at the posts, it's clear that people sometimes think only about what's in front of them. In reality, it's a 3 dimensional world though. The problem is trying to think about it to much. Keep training and don't think so much. Now if I could only follow my own advice...

Kung fu is a wonderful path. Stay on it for a while and see what you can see.

[count]

LOL:D

[SimonM]

... is that a lot of people don't bother ever applying them. Forms are important but you must also practice the applications first against a cooperative opponent and then gradually increasing resistance until it is a completely resisting opponent you are practicing with. Until then you haven't really learned to apply anything at all.

[Knifefighter]

Originally posted by red5angel
Sports fighters also acknoweldge across the board that you're limited to the time you will be in your prime and able to compete at the best of you ability. This applies to all hard physical activities icluding self-defense, street fighting, and "life and death" physical confrontations.

[Knifefighter]

Trying to make several applications out of one technique in a form seems about as efficient as trying to learn a boxing hook punch from a judo hip toss.

[PHILBERT]

I admit, I said what I said at first about cigars to make everyone think Bill Clinton references, with the intention of responding saying there is more than just those 2 ways to enjoy a cigar.

[PangQuan]

Originally posted by PHILBERT
My gym teacher in Junior High would chew cigars. When he played golf, he'd put the cigar in his mouth and just bite down on it and chew. On the 9th hole he spit it out, put in another. Never smoked them.

LMAO !

[joedoe]

Originally posted by Knifefighter
Trying to make several applications out of one technique in a form seems about as efficient as trying to learn a boxing hook punch from a judo hip toss.

I think you are taking that analogy a bit far. In most cases, the alternate applications are the result of something as minute as a turn of the wrist or a slight change of force (or target). For a very simple example, a straight punch may be aimed at the face, but a slight turn of your body and some downward force on the punch would allow you to intercept a counter punch on the same side.

[count]

Right on Joe. Hooks can be used for hooking too. The point is, was it a bridge or just a punch? I'm not going to argue semantics with you. Forms is just a method of learning something. Not a training method. Applications come from experience and understanding. Experience and understand come from lot's of places. Why limit yourself to one idea?

[PangQuan]

When I think about what forms are good for, other than the obvious, I always think about the traditional chinese belief of what is the qualification of a true master is.

A true master will be able to apply all of the training he has endured without deliberate concious thought, It will become first nature.

Training in forms, (dont get me wrong, acutally application is every bit as important as forms, its all part of the big picture) will highly improve your muscle memory, stabilizer muscles, and at the same time it will work your intire brain, due to the fact that you are continuously using both hemispheres through ambidextrious movement.

People can deny forms all that they want, it in no way degrades the training you recieve from them. You see, at the root and core of true gong fu, and attainment of actual mastership, hard work, dedication, belief, and most important of all, patients.

I in no way claim to be a master, I am a very, very long way from what I consider to be a master, which is not a highly appreciated consideration among many in this world. BUT, I have done my homework.

This is why there are so many applications to each movement, because the traditional martial arts are designed to create traditional masters, and a traditional master, in using true gong fu will be able to, adapt and use the application for the movement, or "form" he is in at that precise moment, that best suits the situation. And like stated above, application comes from experience and understanding. This is the link that completes the chain of training to actual application.

[Pork Chop]

Originally posted by Knifefighter
Trying to make several applications out of one technique in a form seems about as efficient as trying to learn a boxing hook punch from a judo hip toss.

Something about this quote got me so excited I almost kicked my mom in the face....

errr...

Ogoshi is a popular hip throw.

In execution it's like a boxing hook, where the hips turn all the way through.

The shape (like in shadowboxing) would be similar; but I doubt the method would be the same; and the power is almost assuredly different.

On the other hand, the shape, method, and power match up for multiple techniques in certain forms.

Problems are whether or not you're taught the method & power; whether you know how to use it once you get there; and whether you know which is the proper tool for the situation.

Originally each variation was a separate drill trained in the classroom. Drills came first, forms came last.

Trying to get drills & usage when just given forms is difficult and I imagine could fall into the category of your criticism.

Doing drills first, for use with fighting, and learning forms later to help remember them all would be similar to "shadow wrestling" all of the Judo shodan throws, with a good flow, so you could remember them in the absence of a regular class & sensei.

Don't look at me though; coz at this point I prefer Muay Thai. LOL

[count]

Originally posted by BMore Banga


Doing drills first, for use with fighting, and learning forms later to help remember them all would be similar to "shadow wrestling" all of the Judo shodan throws, with a good flow, so you could remember them in the absence of a regular class & sensei.


Is this different from any traditional martial arts training?

[Pork Chop]

Originally posted by count
Is this different from any traditional martial arts training?

Well I was kinda trying to explain use and purpose.

A lot of people see traditional people learning forms and assume that they always reverse engineer the form to extract the fighting.
You and I both know that isn't always the case.

Sometimes you may have to reverse engineer to extract the fighting; but that's not really the ideal situation.

My point in posting a reply wasn't to say that the inefficience is always the case; but to say that it could exist if conditions and training were less than ideal.

Ideally, you spend a good deal of time drilling the heck out of a particular section: like piquan in hsing yi, single palm change in bagua, ng lou choy in mantis, or gwa-sow-charp in choy lay fut.
You drill the striking parts on hitting stuff (like bags).
You drill the manipulation aspects (for lack of a better term) with a partner.

Sure the partner work is cooperative at first, but the goal is to work towards resistance; just takes a lil while to get there.

Even a good 2 person form isn't always done 'cooperatively'; in certain cases you should really try to nail the other guy and he should try to prevent it.

I think it's important to have the right teacher, student base, and training situation in order to really go anywhere.

I also think it's asking a lot of a student to extract fighting from forms; especially if the method & power are not clearly explained to put the shape in perspective (and narrow down the number of possible appz).

Not really trying to bash TCMA or sing it's praises, just doing my best to explain it with my limited understanding.

The Thai crack is more of where I'm at in my struggle to find the right place for me.

[Becca]

A lot of people see traditional people learning forms and assume that they always reverse engineer the form to extract the fighting.
Most of the stylistic differences is not in how you punch and kick. Apunch is a punch, ect... The differences are in how use use them. You don't extract the fighting from the form, you learn how the creator of the form strung punches, kicks, sweeps, ect to gether to fight effectivly. You don't take the fighting from the form, you take the wisdom of how a great fighter used to fight from the form. You practice it, study it, then make it your own. You retain the knowledge of how it was taught to you so the message does not get lost, but you don't try to use it in a fight that way 'cause that isn't your fighting style. it is the style of the form's creator.

[Becca]

You is making me wish I was better with my Japanese nomenclature.:o So I will blend the concept with my English-translated CMA concepts and hope some well-intentioned JMA-ist will help with the proper terms...

There is a three-stage learning curve taught by TJMA. Level one is the beginner, were you learn the basics. Level two is the novice, were you come to understand what you have learned. Level three is the student, were you go out and figure out were this teaching fits into the scheme of "things", i.e. how practical it is and how it fits with you. this is a time of great growth and sometimes ultimate failure as an artist. Only after you have fully reconsiled all the little parts and forged a new whole can you truelly be a deciple of a style. If the new whole does not "fit", one either quits or founds one's own style. A person who calles themselves a master is not allways a master, because you must be a master of all, not just some. Otherwise you are just a teacher.

[red5angel]

This applies to all hard physical activities icluding self-defense, street fighting, and "life and death" physical confrontations.

to a certain point I agree, you'r always going to be better in your prime, but the paradigms are different. A competitor gets into the sport to compete. He knows he has a limited amount of time before the young kids overtake him or her and they cannot compete any more on a serious level.
One who is training for self defense should know that while in his or her prime they have a better chance, the overall goal is to just be able to handle yourself in a situation taht may come up.


Trying to make several applications out of one technique in a form seems about as efficient as trying to learn a boxing hook punch from a judo hip toss.


actually, you'd be wrong. It's highly efficient to learn how to use a technique in multiple ways. It gives you options when the situation arises wher ethe technique most likely doesn't work quite the way you studied it if you only used it one way. Don't let your distaste for TMA and forms get the better of you here knifefighter.

[Pork Chop]

becca

forms contain techniques.

sometimes you gotta learn how the technique works on your own; just being it in a form.

for your family/style's bread and butter techniques; the traditional way was to drill the individual technique and its usage first and put them together in a form later.

the first way can be confusing and inefficient; especially when you don't have the keys to unlock the understanding (method = faht = fah and power = ging = jing).

your personal preference on the execution of the technique shouldn't make such a huge difference; because it should still fall under the same principles, method, and power- just a different manner of expression.

i don't know much about white dragon, so i really can't give an example you'd be familiar with; but a lot of times the determining factors of whether a move in a form is a grab and a punch, versus a 1-2 (jab-cross) are the method, principle, and power that the technique falls under.

this is the importance of the written kuen po of the techniques in forms; the oral tradition; and the old poems for each technique that each describe how the technique works.

[Pork Chop]

red5angel


actually, you'd be wrong. It's highly efficient to learn how to use a technique in multiple ways. It gives you options when the situation arises wher ethe technique most likely doesn't work quite the way you studied it if you only used it one way.

Not trying to pick on you here, but the manner in which you do this is important.

For example, if you train a crescant kick that hits with the side of the foot, or hits more like an axe kick; you train hitting with each one. If you're wrestling and figure out how to shoot a single leg takedown with head outside the leg, as well as head inside the leg; you train being able to pull off each one. If you have a backfist that you use to bash through someone's guard, but also develop a version that's more of a downward pull; training to be able to execute both is important. All of these examples are good for giving you options to adjust to the situation you're presented with.

A "not so good" example of multiple usage is say an unintuitive move in the form where you can think of 5,000 applications; but don't work on drilling the landing a single one. At some point it just becomes cataloging for the sake of cataloging; mental monkey spankin.

If I can figure out a new usage of a jab, it don't do me a whole lot of good if i don't practise pulling it off.

I think the case knifefighter's discussing is more consistant with the second group of examples; where you see some arm waving, out of context, and come up with a thousand ideas on what it could do; but don't take the time to hone any of 'em.

[Knifefighter]

Originally posted by cjurakpt
so, the question is, at what point does one create a new form that, while retaining the principles, reflects one's own insight / development? where does this generative principle come from? how does one know it's original, and not just a re-mix of someone ele's composition? IF one is going to create a form, each movement in it should come directly from applications that one has done during fighting.

Assuming a form is worth anything in the first place, every movement in it should have been taken from successful application in direct fighting experience.

[Knifefighter]

Originally posted by red5angel
to a certain point I agree, you'r always going to be better in your prime, but the paradigms are different. A competitor gets into the sport to compete. He knows he has a limited amount of time before the young kids overtake him or her and they cannot compete any more on a serious level.
One who is training for self defense should know that while in his or her prime they have a better chance, the overall goal is to just be able to handle yourself in a situation taht may come up. Not evrybody competes just for the sake of competition. Many people compete to improve their self defense abilities.

[PangQuan]

If we look at all martial arts as a whole, generally all of the traditional methods that have been established, were done so through many years of study, much through the process of elimination. Generation upon generation went into the entire process, this is why a master would pass everything onto one person, they spent years waiting for the right person to represent the lineage that they themselves inherited. Through all of these studies, practices, fights (competition, and life/death situations) what was developed, was developed through the means of practicallity as a whole in regards to the high point of what the entire training regeme is aimed at reaching. By this standard what is in use in a particular martial art, from any style, is what the originators have found to be effective within the entire life to death process. So by that means, it is all effective, there is no point in anyone saying "only how i train is correct" because frankly, each of us are doing the right training, what is different with each of our styles, schools, and so on, is where you will find your high point in that life to death process. One styles system of training may develop highly powerfull punches, yet lack in kicks, where another will be the opposite, while one may have a balance of both (not as strong as eithers strength, yet not as weak as eithers weakness). It is all about where you feel comfortable and what your peronality and body type will excell the most. So you see it is completely futile for anyone to argue whos style/training is best, for it is all equal, and again, it comes down to the individual. BUt you can talk all the cr@p you want about those McDojo's. Those fools that do actually pass of the lies deserve to feel the shame of inferiority.

[ShaolinTiger00]

Ogoshi is a popular hip throw.

In execution it's like a boxing hook, where the hips turn all the way through

Sorry, but I strongly disagree. it's not even close. the kuzushi, the shoulder, the pivot of the foot., the arm, the posture of the body. very very very very different.

[Knifefighter]

Originally posted by PangQuan
BUt you can talk all the cr@p you want about those McDojo's. Those fools that do actually pass of the lies deserve to feel the shame of inferiority. And how does one determine what's a McDojo and what's the real deal?

[Knifefighter]

Originally posted by ShaolinTiger00
Sorry, but I strongly disagree. it's not even close. the kuzushi, the shoulder, the pivot of the foot., the arm, the posture of the body. very very very very different. But not to those who are pulling new applications from their forms. They think it is all the same.

[Rockwood]

>> IF one is going to create a form, each movement in it should come directly from applications that one has done during fighting. >>


In my experience in traditional IMA, this is not true.

Maybe this is true in karate where a kata is a "pretend fight" but in the IMA, the forms are simple movements that are NOT Supposed to be mimicing a fight.

Each form is designed to teach a feeling, a rhythm,a momentum, a certain body sense that can be used in fighting. The specific moves they use are not as important as the type of "energy" that one is utilizing.

In Chinese they call this "Jing" or "Jin" or "Ching" depending on the writing style.

The goal is to train these Jings until they are built into the body for spontaneous use. The techniques are all spontaneous and intuitive.

This makes a lot more sense to me than "I block, you kick" type of forms. It can be a lot of work to create a Jing and figure out how to use it. Thats why teachers beat you, so you learn the Jing.

Anyways, just a little something from the IMA world.


-Jess O

[Fu-Pow]

Originally posted by Rockwood
>> IF one is going to create a form, each movement in it should come directly from applications that one has done during fighting. >>


In my experience in traditional IMA, this is not true.

Maybe this is true in karate where a kata is a "pretend fight" but in the IMA, the forms are simple movements that are NOT Supposed to be mimicing a fight.

Each form is designed to teach a feeling, a rhythm,a momentum, a certain body sense that can be used in fighting. The specific moves they use are not as important as the type of "energy" that one is utilizing.

In Chinese they call this "Jing" or "Jin" or "Ching" depending on the writing style.

The goal is to train these Jings until they are built into the body for spontaneous use. The techniques are all spontaneous and intuitive.

This makes a lot more sense to me than "I block, you kick" type of forms. It can be a lot of work to create a Jing and figure out how to use it. Thats why teachers beat you, so you learn the Jing.

Anyways, just a little something from the IMA world.
-Jess O

Beautifully put. And I think you can extend that idea into the EMA world as well. The gings/jin might be different but the concept is similar.

They say that when you reach a high level in Taiji when you execute any type of movement that the force comes out of all of your joints and out in all directions.

Therefore any part of your body that that the opponent comes in contact with they will be bounced off.

When one part of your body moves, all parts move.

Forms are not "prearranged fighting patterns." Rather, they are tools to develop jin and to be able to explore the many facets of expressing that jin.

So learning many forms is not necessarily to learn MORE techniques. It is to learn more subtle or more advanced ways to express jin. To give you more flexibility of jin expression.

The form is just a tool that can take you to a higher level but at which during free fighting you must cast off in favor of free martial expression.

This is where Bruce Lee was heading with JKD. A lot of people took Bruce Lee to mean that you don't need form at all. But Bruce Lee was a classical wing chun guy before he learned JKD. He learned to express jin through his wing chun training to which he later added parts of other arts to make up for wing chun's deficits.

IMHO, to understand any movement in kung fu, you must be able to execute the external Form (the first step, ie when you mimic your teacher), understand/feel the internal Jin that belies the Form (which in the long run may force you to modify the external Form) and the bigger Strategy that the Form and Jin are supposed to fit into (ie what function do the Jin and Form serve in the overall strategy of the system.)

Then you've got to take all that and learn to apply it in real time.

Which may force you to modify all of the above. ;)

A lot of people have Form, not many have Jin, even less understand how Form and Jin fit into Strategy. And even fewer people can take Form, Jin and Strategy and apply it in real time.

Maybe it'd just be better if we all bought boxing gloves and started hitting stuff????:D

[PangQuan]

Originally posted by Knifefighter
And how does one determine what's a McDojo and what's the real deal?

Unfortunately that involves an experienced martial artist visiting said school and testing it through various methods. Then exposing it to everyone they assosiate with in the martial community.

[red5angel]

Bmore Banga - we partly agree. I believe in one of my earlier posts, possibly the first one, I'm too lazy to go look, I stated that with the right amount of training having a list of options and training them is a good way to go about it. I've never claimed it was the most efficient, but efficiency is determined by the goal.


Not evrybody competes just for the sake of competition. Many people compete to improve their self defense abilities.

sure but I think that's the exception and not the rule. I don't think anyone goes into competing seriously with the sole purpose of increasing their ability to defend themselves. That ability to defend themselves is a more of an acceptable byproduct.




But not to those who are pulling new applications from their forms. They think it is all the same.

I tend to go the other direction and feel that sometimes people think about it too much. I cna't use the example ST00 and whoever are arguing, the Ogoshi, I don't know what that is but I've seen a lot of martial arts claim that their punch, which appears tobe very similar to other punches, is actually quite different. There are broad categories of difference but it only breaks down so far. more oftne in my mind what changes is only the context and how your art prefers to approach a particular technique.



This is where Bruce Lee was heading with JKD. A lot of people took Bruce Lee to mean that you don't need form at all. But Bruce Lee was a classical wing chun guy before he learned JKD. He learned to express jin through his wing chun training to which he later added parts of other arts to make up for wing chun's deficits.


actually he just got ****ed off cause he couldn't get what he wanted form the traditional guys, and his ego led him to believe he had all the answers.

[MasterKiller]

Originally posted by red5angel
Bmore Banga - we partly agree. I believe in one of my earlier posts, possibly the first one, I'm too lazy to go look, I stated that with the right amount of training having a list of options and training them is a good way to go about it. I've never claimed it was the most efficient, but efficiency is determined by the goal.


Originally posted by red5angel
actually, you'd be wrong. It's highly efficient to learn how to use a technique in multiple ways. It gives you options when the situation arises wher ethe technique most likely doesn't work quite the way you studied it if you only used it one way. Don't let your distaste for TMA and forms get the better of you here knifefighter.
:D

[count]

Originally posted by Knifefighter
And how does one determine what's a McDojo and what's the real deal?
If the student thinks you learn to fight by learning forms, it might be a McDojo. But than, you might not know if you don't understand what forms are for. IMO, a person could advance in martial arts even in a McDojo. It just depends how well they can train themselves. Even the best teacher can't give you skill.

This is a good discussion even if some people are commenting on something they don't know about instead of asking questions. Personally, I didn't enter in this for a debate. I think web777 had a valid question. In my IME, a good one which might not have one good answer. In any case, a student who asks questions and attempts to explore their practice and find there own answers, deserves encouragment. Nothing more and nothing less.

[red5angel]

right ;)

[Pork Chop]

Originally posted by ShaolinTiger00
Sorry, but I strongly disagree. it's not even close. the kuzushi, the shoulder, the pivot of the foot., the arm, the posture of the body. very very very very different.

By "shape" I mean "a guy with his arm bent, twisting".

Might not be the BEST example, but shape wise they're somewhat similar.

The kuzushi, the balance, the shoulder usage, where you put your weight, and probably even the pivot would be aspects of the method and power.

I'm not married to that example. I'm sure you could think of other techniques where if all context removed and you were looking at still photos (not video) of the individual postures; that they could kinda look similar.

My point is to say that the shape of the move doesn't really mean anything, you need to understand the method and power to know how to use it; in the case of the hook & ogoshi the methods & powers are very different; so you end up with very different usage.

[Yum Cha]

Nice to see we can get some real discussion without collapsing into beating the forms vs fighting "dead mule."

I find myself at odds with a lot of what is being said, yet finding elements that I can agree with. Granted, my style is slightly different to a lot of mainstream Kung Fu.

I can't comment on right or wrong, I can only add my perspective to the fray.

Firstly, I am guilty as the next guy of "deconstructing" forms, however I am being taught to teach without doing that. My question was Why? I was told more or less, "because its not teaching for them, its your self indulgence - they can't understand like you understand."

Are forms Fighting? Are forms physical training? Both, neither? Something else? Does it matter????

Forms are about repetition, about the physical. To turn them into intellectual studies is counter productive unless you want to intellectually debate the matter, not physically. Its all to much talk when it should be physical. When the physical pieces of the puzzle gain in number, a physical understanding comes to the student OF THEIR OWN. Once you find these "treasures" they are yours forever, you don't forget them under pressure.

The saying goes, it is a journey of 10,000 steps, not 10,000 words, in a nutshell.

The goal is that from every position you find yourself, your body automatically adjusts to familiar weight, position and application to complete the next phase of the attack. Some people call it the Listening touch, sensitivity, whatever....

Now, consider that in most styles, an attack, or an execution is not a single strike, it might involve 2 or three in a combination that cause a predictable reaction in your opponent, even a resisting opponent. ( i.e. You hit him in the face, the guard goes up, and he goes back.)

Now, things don't always go as planned, and sometimes in the middle of a combination, you are jammed, stymied or simply blocked, good training will simply enable you to adapt and continue because there will be a physical bookmark for that situation as well, and your touch will trigger another familiar physical response. Stop to think and you lose the edge.

So, given the opportunity to intellectually discuss a move, or a combination, the same amount of time simply repeating the move or combination will add more to your fighting effectiveness, and take you closer to the 'formlessness" of instinctual reaction to any given physical circumstance found in "real world" confrontations. Likewise, every individual may not find the same techniques in the same form training, to each their own strengths and weaknesses.

I really liked the boat analogy. You need the boat, but you will eventually need to leave the boat alone.

Things you discover about forms physically are much more valuable than things you discover about forms intellectually.

Some forms have conditioning and movement fundamentals that wash across all the actual fighting techniques, beyond their application in the form. Core physical attitudes.

So, on the narrow topic of forms as a COMPONENT of training to fight, the value is not in telling a student, but in letting them discover things by themselves, and ensuring that they always continue looking deeper and deeper.

A fishing rod, not a fish.

And, if you don't have the patience to fish, you deserve neither the rod, nor the fish. There are some plus sides to being in a non-commercial setting.

The student may wish to learn fast, but the teacher may wish for them to learn properly. Few students have the natural talent to do both, however many more can learn properly with time.

AS for making up forms...not my cup of tea. Got enough trouble handling what my Sifu gave to me. More is not the answer in my book.

Cheers

[omarthefish]

I'd try to reframe the whole idea of finding multiple applictions for a technique.

A "technique" to me by definition has some particular specific application. Certain moves aren't really techniques per se. You could have a method, a technique for disrupting someone's balance. That's pretty general. You could also have something very specific like a right cross. But I get lost on the whole idea of multiple applications for specific moves is this:

Applications, to me are just examples of how you can do things. Ultimately your "technique" is nothing more than, "hit him in the face" or "throw him on the ground" or "dodge".

If you try to "use a technique" to throw someone, your kind of missing the point. Every single instance, every throw, every punch, every block, is going to be just a little bit different. You learn a bunch of specific examples and maybe even drill them with your partner at varying levels of force but if you are set on ANY particular way of doing things THAT is what is "dead" training to me. "Live" training, in my world, does not have to do with how hard you hit the pads or how "fully resisting" your opponent is. It is a question of wether or not you are really dealing with a lving, breathing, ever changing, actually acting and reacting human being.

So I "punch" is "a block"? Get rid of the labels. He punches at me and I throw my arm up to stop it form hitting me. I don't use a block. I use my arm. If your throwing out techniques like a robot then you are not being creative human being. We learn a few rules of thumb about human motion and are given some good examples of how things CAN pan out but learning techniques is really an entry level kind of training.

[Shooter]

excellent

[Akhilleus]

Originally posted by Morbicid:

"i suppose almost any bodily movement can be used to hurt someone if they're in the wrong place at the wrong time. (or is it right place at the right time ?)

Like if i go to open my car door, and some guy's face is in the way I might accidentally poke one of his eyes out right ?

Or if I were to kneel down to tie my shoe, I might unknowlingly evade a ninja's kick toward my head! Which would be totally sweet. From that point on I could name the technique as a "deadly ninja evading / shoe-tying multi-purpose technique!."

LOL...but true...too often have I heard, when being shown a new move..."This one here is a block...this could also be a joint lock...it could even be this..." and its like umm...well can you make even ONE of those work?

[Akhilleus]

What about, when on the ground, key locks? Aren't they very similar in some ways whether you are locking the arm or the leg? The arm is just thumb toward elbow, thumb toward elbow, and the leg is thumb toward ankle, thumb toward elbow right? Of course the set ups and the positioning of your body are much different...I'm no expert on submissions though...

Oh and ma bu stance is good for training leg strength and camping

[omarthefish]

I'm glad so far at least one person got my post. Kind of a struggle to articulate. But this one got me thinking in metaphores again:


Originally posted by Akhilleus
[B]What about, when on the ground, key locks?

Ever carve a raw chicken? I mean like do the work of cutting it into wings, breasts, thighs and drumsticks on your own but without having a meat cleaver on hand. You have to pop the joints out for the drumsticks so you can cut past them without ruining the edge on your filet knife. It can be tricky at first untill you figure out which way to grab the leg and which way to twist it to make the joint pop out. Same thing for the wings.

Other thatn chokes, that's what most submission are except your doing it on a person. The reason people think grappling is evolving at such an incredible pace and that new techniqques are CONSTANTLY being invented/discovered is because each person find their own way to get a grip on the arm and to twist it the right way to pop the joint out. But in the end, the technique is "pop the joint out". For chokes the technique is "close the arteries".

Each chef has his own way of popping the chicken legs out. Yesterday wrapping dumplings we all laughed at each others technique for getting the things wrapped up with all the filling stuffed inside. I expect that each of us will find out own solutions to any spacial relationship problem presented to us.

This approach has been around for a while in many martial arts. I'm a bit surprised I don't see it being more explicitly addressed in all these threads I see around the net on submission grappling. You see it here and there but not nearly enough.

[Akhilleus]

OIC...

Yeah I thought your post about dead training and creativity was right on the money...

[Yum Cha]

Omar, works for me too. Just barbecued a chicken yesterday. :D

[count]

Omar,

I thought your post was great. But that last one made me so hungry I had to go get some chicken.:p Preachin' to the choir here, but I decided early in this thread not to argue the semantics of technique or applications.

I thought it was more about someone making personal discoveries in their form. To me forms are just a way of laying out a system and passing it on. Really nothing to do with learning fighting or self preservation. Not even a training method. If people are finding different things from forms, that's fine. But since a few have made the argument that forms are about fighting techniques (or aplications), maybe someone can explain why the need for multiple forms? Why the stylistic differences between schools?

[web777]

Originally posted by Akhilleus

LOL...but true...too often have I heard, when being shown a new move in a form...in external kung fu and also in tai chi..."This one here is a block...this could also be a joint lock...it could even be this..." and its like umm...well can you make even ONE of those work? [/B]

That's sorta like how I felt but each technique that was shown to me worked! I guess my question is not how effective it is (which they are) but was these moves designed for multiple applications. Or are we discovering new techniques from just a simple block and punch?

[SimonM]

Originally posted by PangQuan


Training in forms... will highly improve your muscle memory, stabilizer muscles.


This is essentially what I am refering to when I speak of forms as important too. Also forms teach (when propperly instructed) important concepts as continuous fluid motion and linking of principles. These are important lessons for a fighter. I think that what is important to remember about forms is that at a legitimate school they are one of several training tools used, not the only one.

Thanks Sevenstar, I more meant that anyway, just couldn't put my finger on the word I wanted. ;)

[SevenStar]

think in terms of principles, not techniques...

[red5angel]

think in terms of principles, not techniques...


Exactly!

[Fu-Pow]

Originally posted by count
But since a few have made the argument that forms are about fighting techniques (or aplications), maybe someone can explain why the need for multiple forms? Why the stylistic differences between schools?


External Shape (Form, Structure, Specific technique)
Internal Jin (Body Mechanics)
Real-time Application (Experience, Timing, Strategy)

Thinking about it more, I changed my earlier "Big Three."

IMHO, those are the 3 main "factors" when you dissect a Martial Arts movement.

They all inter-relate in some fashion.

Different styles develop because if you change any one of the factors the other three change as well. Focus on different Jins, Shapes modify and Real-time Applications change to suit the needs of the individual practitioner.

Why multiple hands sets? If you look at hand sets not only as a catalogue of Shapes/Techniques but also as a means to develop Jin: different hand sets express different Jins or may explore a certain aspects of specific Jin.

For example, in Chen Taji. The Yi Lu hand set explores long Peng Jin. The Pao Chui hand set explores short, explosive Peng Jin.

They are the same Jin just expressed through a different External Shape.

The end goal is more flexiblity in Real-Time application.



Audi5000

:D

[SPJ]

In response to the first post.

Yes, there are at least 108 apps of any single move.

There are the left, right, front, rear, top and down: totally 6 directions and 8 zones.

If you consider use your right hand or left hand, then there are 6x6 apps.

If you consider high(head), mid (abdomen/chest) and low (groins and legs) levels, then 6x6+6x6+6x6= 108.

If consider 8x8+8x8+8x8= 192.

If consider 6 directions at 3 levels= 3x6=18, 18 with hand moves and 18 with feet moves then 18x18= 324.

On and on.

[count]

Now that's 3 dimensional thinking. A bit linear for my taste, but than, I'm a bagua man.;)

[SPJ]

Excellent point.

Everything x 8 again.

In Tai Ji circle, there are infinite moves and apps in the circle or a ball.

:D

[count]

:cool:

[Becca]

Originally posted by BMore Banga

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by ShaolinTiger00
Sorry, but I strongly disagree. it's not even close. the kuzushi, the shoulder, the pivot of the foot., the arm, the posture of the body. very very very very different.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

By "shape" I mean "a guy with his arm bent, twisting".

Might not be the BEST example, but shape wise they're somewhat similar.

The kuzushi, the balance, the shoulder usage, where you put your weight, and probably even the pivot would be aspects of the method and power.

I'm not married to that example. I'm sure you could think of other techniques where if all context removed and you were looking at still photos (not video) of the individual postures; that they could kinda look similar.

My point is to say that the shape of the move doesn't really mean anything, you need to understand the method and power to know how to use it; in the case of the hook & ogoshi the methods & powers are very different; so you end up with very different usage.

This set of comments and replies is exactly the point I was trying to make about making the form your own. From each point of view, both of you are right. But that doesn't meen that's how the creator of the form did it.

Grandmaster Pai hasn't been gone long, so when my sifu says to me that is not how it should look, I know he's telling me a fact based on his own observance of seeing the Grandmaster perform.

While your description of how a form is made is accurate, that is not how they are passed on through the generations. What I was describing was how to use these forms without comprimising yourself or the integrety of your teachings. I personally find it easier to keep the two seperate in my mind. This seperatness keeps them seperate in reality, as well.