Genetic Edge

[PangQuan]

Just curious on others thoughts. How would you say your genetic coding effects your longterm outcome with the study of CMA. Do you think that someone who stems from a long line of martial artists will have a genetic edge over those that do not come from such a background? In other words, would someone who has ancestors that stretched alot in turn have the born ability to reach higher levels of flexability than someone who's genetic lineage is that of a people who did not stretch? So would you believe that a chinese person, based on their ethnic background, would have an advantage over a someone who hails europian, african, or native north, central, or south american ethnic descent?

Now what about mutts, like me, who have a little of it all?

[GeneChing]

If you beleive that, you're a Lamarckian and you can easily explain neck length in giraffes.

[joedoe]

Yes, it is a known fact that you can only kick arse using CMA if you are actually Chinese. :D

Seriously though, there are probably some differences that provide advantageous attributes but ultimately the key is how you train and how hard you train.

[PangQuan]

LOL, I have not heard of that man yet, made for an interesting read though. Thanks. Im not quite sure that I believe that. It is just something a few people and I were discussing last night. It is an interesting theory. It has its evidence and it has its discredits. In a sense I could see how it could be possible, not sure. For instance, I was able to imediately sit in full lotus when first introduced to it, (possibly due to Indian heritage) while others have a hard time with that without ever having practiced it. But I am quite sceptical, partially due to the fact that I dont like the thought of having an ethnic disadvantage in any area.

[norther practitioner]

Well it is said now of the longer necked dinosaurs that it wasn't the same as in giraffes, it was more for grazing larger amounts of area on the surface....;)

[PangQuan]

lol, that creates a very amusing mental animation of the evolutionary progress.

[PangQuan]

hey gene, have you seen the holo post on other section?

[joedoe]

Well, I have one example (though that is hardly statistically significant). My sigung was an exceptional martial artist. I know everyone thinks that of their teachers, but I believe he truly was. He had an incredible 'internal' strength even at the age of 80. I have trained with his son all of my martial arts life, and it appears that his son has inherited that strength. And it appears his son has too.

I am sure there are plenty of other examples of inherited strength (Chen family taiji I think? And Wong Fei Hung?). But the point is, how do you know you haven't inherited some amazing strength as well? ;) Even if you haven't, what is to say you cannot develop it? As far as I am concerned it is up to you, not your genetics :)

[PangQuan]

I hear that, and i totally believe it is up to the individual. It is just neat to hear all of your ideas on the subject. Oh, and i have inherited something amazing.

[IronFist]

A guy who comes from a family full of MAs may be better at MAs than the average person but it has nothing to do with the fact that his family are MAs. It may just be that his grandpa tried MA and found out he had the genetics to be good, and then his dad, and then him.

Genetics do play a role, but you can't affect them with what you do. If you have the genes to be a good MA you have the genes to be a good MA regardless of if you do MA or not.

[PangQuan]

ironfist,

That makes alot of sense.

[IronFist]

Originally posted by PangQuan
For instance, I was able to imediately sit in full lotus when first introduced to it, (possibly due to Indian heritage)

It could be that genetically your family has looser hips or whatever, but it has nothing to do with the fact that your parents sat in the Lotus a lot when they were younger, which is what PangQuan was asking. Your parents could both be handicapped and their genes extracted to create you and you would have the exact same genes and ability to sit in the lotus position.


while others have a hard time with that without ever having practiced it. But I am quite sceptical, partially due to the fact that I dont like the thought of having an ethnic disadvantage in any area.

Too bad everyone is not created equal. There is some research to suggest that black people have less myostatin, a muscle inhibiting enzyme, and are therefore more genetically suited to build more muscle easier than other people. The few times this has been brought up it was a good discussion but a few people had a fit and said we were being racist, etc. Some people can't handle the fact that everyone might not have exactly the same chances as everyone else in the world.

So, back to your point. Your ability to sit in the lotus position on your first try may be genetic, but it's not because your parents sat in the lotus position before they had you.

[IronFist]

PangQuan, the other thing you should think about is that a young person in a family full of MAs would probably be exposed to it a lot earlier than someone who didn't come from a family full of MAs. Childhood instruction often produces better lifetime results than if you start later. Look at how easily little kids pick up foreign languages vs. someone who starts at 16 or 18 or 30. Look at how many world champion gymnasts started training at 4. Yes, they had the genes to be flexible and strong, but they also started training young.

[PangQuan]

~bows down~

:p

[PangQuan]

Hey speaking of genetics, have you read anything about that "genetic doping" that has been circulating the news. I wonder if we are gonna start seeing Super MA's soon. 20 foot high front jumping snap kicks.

[Becca]

:p That's not how that works, goofball. It's sposed to keep your muscles and such from aging as fast, not give super human strength. Kinda like how blood dopping don't mean your lungs are any better, only that you have more blood to carry the oxygen.

[MasterKiller]

http://www.straightdope.com/classics/a2_193.html

[GeneChing]

hey gene, have you seen the holo post on other section? nope.

As to the question, I do beleive that Chinese have an advantage but it's cultural/environmental, not genetic. Labor is cheap in China, so people have to work harder to survive. Chinese people work hard due to their population density, and hard work is what it takes for good CMA. Also there's no language barrier. People don't ask what qi means. And many of them squat to defecate, which builds more leg strength. That's a big factor, when you think about it. A deep squat daily from childhood gives you much better legs than an American Standard toilet. We've been undone by modern plumbing ;) There are a lot of reasons why Chinese people tend to excel at CMA, but genetics is a minor factor, if one at all.

[PangQuan]

That makes alot of sense. So kind of what your saying is that we are more so a product of our invironment versus a product of our lineage. The fish only gets as big as the bowl allows?

[PangQuan]

Originally posted by Becca
:p That's not how that works, goofball. It's sposed to keep your muscles and such from aging as fast, not give super human strength. Kinda like how blood dopping don't mean your lungs are any better, only that you have more blood to carry the oxygen.

The arcticle in The Oregonian (portland oregon newspaper) on gene doping specifies otherwise, how it works is by introducing a genetically developed code into your system, which can slow muscle atrophy, speed up your immune system, and develop the ability to grow muscle mass faster. There have been many studies and experiements done, including one where "super strong" lab mice were created, these mice were each able of running one hour longer than any ordinary mice. The point of the newspaper arcticle was how the sports dopping committie is trying to stop it before it starts. I dont remember the scientists name but he says as of now he is not able to SAFELY introduce this into the human genitic strand. Which by the way is completely undetectable through blood or urine samples and appears as part of your ordinary genetic make up.

~edit~ oops i think it was not immune system but your metabolism that is sped up.

[PangQuan]

This type of genetic manipulation has been done on humans in the past few years, used to help cure disease, most of the cases were failures, however a few were successfull. The dangerous part about gene doping is that once you undergo the process it is not reversable. You are stuck with it forever. Well, until it kills you anyhow.

[Fu-Pow]

There is an interesting book called Taboo (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/158648026X/qid=1108079712/sr=8-9/ref=pd_bbs_9/002-5547185-5068857?v=glance&s=books&n=507846) that deals with the different "races" and how they measure up in certain categories such as speed, development, etc.

The majority of the book is about East and West Africans. The West Africans being excellent sprinters and East Africans being the best distance runners.

If I recall correctly there was some mention in this book that Asians, very generally, have faster hand-eye coordination.

That is why they tend to excel in sports that require excellent hand/eye coordination and it could have something to do with why they excel at martial arts as well.

Never did the follow up to see where the author was getting that info....

Anyways, back to Pang Quan original question. Gene Ching called correctly when he referred to it as Lamarckism. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lamarckism)Lamarck believed that traits could be inherited by the actions of the parent. In other words, traits could be "acquired" from generation to generation. It was a nice attempt to explain evolution and hang on to biblical creationism.

Utlimately, this hypothesis has proven false and the Darwinian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Darwinian) "descent with modification" has been proven many times over. Darwins hypothesis has been further modified to include Punctuated Equilibrium (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Punctuated_equilibrium) or sudden burst of evolution.

Hope that helps.

Peace.

[PangQuan]

yeah, thats cool, thanks. So is it true that native africans have an extra muscle in their leg, and that native americans have an extra tendon?

[Becca]

Actually, it isn't so much as an extra tendon, it is a tendon that most peeps o f European desent are less likely to have. It's the one that allows your pinky finger to move independantly of your ring finger. (ever notice that when you move your pinky, your ring finger moves, too?)

Do you have a link to that artical? I've read several over the last two years on this topic, and from what I've found, the lab mice who do develop the super endurence aren't any stronger. Rather, they can keep going longer due to improvements of the cardio vascular and circulitory system. In short, they age slower and opperate more efficiently to begin with.

I'll have to see if I can find some on-line links to these articals. My scanner's fritzing out again.

[PangQuan]

Ya, now that you mention it they said that they had an increased endurance. It quoted "super strong mice" but did not specify what that meant. It was an arcticle in the sports section of The Oregonian. Geared towards what the sport dopping regulation commitie was doing about growing concerns for the future of genetic sport enhancement.

[Shaolinlueb]

so chinese have stronger horse stances and can jump higher cause they squat when they go to the bathroom gene huh? that means the ladies are twice as strong as the guys! oh i love it thats a new idea!!! I'm gonna write an article on it! but i will need years of research and mathmatic formula's to back it up. :(

[PangQuan]

i was told that there was a tendon in the leg that was extra. I am a portion native american, thats the only reason im curious. but now that you mention it i can move my pinky idependantly.

[MasterKiller]

Super Mice:

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/08/24/tech/main637939.shtml

[IronFist]

Originally posted by Fu-Pow
If I recall correctly there was some mention in this book that Asians, very generally, have faster hand-eye coordination.

That is why they tend to excel in sports that require excellent hand/eye coordination and it could have something to do with why they excel at martial arts as well.


Um, hello, Ping Pong :D

[IronFist]

I can move my pinky just fine by itself, but I can't move my ring finger very far without my middle finger moving along with it. It's kind of annoying, actually.

[tug]

It's the one that allows your pinky finger to move independantly of your ring finger. (ever notice that when you move your pinky, your ring finger moves, too?)

Well, I'm of Eastern European descent, and I can move both my pinkie and ring finger independently of each other.

Do I get a prize? :D

[Fu-Pow]

Originally posted by IronFist
Um, hello, Ping Pong :D

Yep, ping pong, badmitten, etc. :D ;)

[PangQuan]

Originally posted by tug
Well, I'm of Eastern European descent, and I can move both my pinkie and ring finger independently of each other.

Do I get a prize? :D

yes.

[Becca]

Tug- congrats, you are part of the 15% of your/our heratige who can.

Just remembered a neat little test to see if you have the tendon. This ought to be even more informative for those who do have it, as they can compare to those who don't.

hold your bare forearm palm up. Curl each finger independantly while watching the area of your inner wrist where the vains show just under the skin. You may have to move your pinky and/or ring finger using your other hand; for this test it don't have to be moving itself, just be moving independantly of the others. For each finger moved, you will see a slight deperession made by the activated tendon. Those who are missing a tendon will not see a definate depression made when moving the pinky, only some shifting of muscles around the metacarples.:cool:

Theoretically, this test could be done with the leg tendon, as well, but most peeps' feet are too leathery and callused for good results.

[Becca]

Originally posted by MasterKiller
Super Mice:

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/08/24/tech/main637939.shtml
Thanx! That wasn't one i'd read, but it says about the same. I will defanently find a way to get the artical I have from a medical journal that goes in depth into the metabolism aspect of it. It was interesting enough to keep me glued to it, even though I had to look up every 5th word in the dictionary to understand it.:p It made a good case of how a more efficient metabolism made for fewer waste byproducts for the blood to have to clear away durring periods of heavy exertion, all but eliminating nasty side effects like runner's stitch and delaying muscle burn. The decrease of these byproducts meant the body didn't have to divert as many resources to house keeping, so to speak, and could dedicate more resources to bringing fresh nutrients to the working muscle groups.