WCK marketing for fun and profit

[t_niehoff]

I thought it might be fun to list our favorite WCK marketing devices (that you or anyone can use to convince the public, without ever having to fight and demonstrate genuine WCK skill, that you -- and you alone -- have top-notch WCK) -- such as:

give yourself a title (grandmaster, master) -- what better way to convince the unwary public that someone has skill/knowledge than by sticking a title on your name?

reveal that you possess secret techniques/concepts -- another great way to sell to the unwary is by suggesting no one else can give them secret things (techniques, lineage, etc.) that only you have. How you got them may be another secret.

use associations -- somehow link yourself to Yip Man or Bruce Lee or the Shaolin Temple or some other notable person/organization (and, of course, you alone can claim that association).

make it sound easy -- the "you can defeat larger, stronger persons and with little or no strength of your own",
"WCK is designed for women and smaller persons to overcome larger persons", "you can become better fighters without fighting", "WCK is a conceptual art", etc.

explain in advance why you can't provide evidence of your claims -- "It must remain a secret" (presumably for the safety of the world!) to "This is too dangerous for 'sport'" (a variation of "WCK is for streetfighting" - but of course we're too genteel to streetfight).

use lots of descriptive adjectives (to hyperbole) -- keep repeating that WCK is a "superior art", "WCK is a conceptual art", etc. A variation is to use lots of esoteric and vague terms that sound impressive. And, drop how everything is a "concept".

when you can't fight, turn WCK into something else -- "WCK is a system of movement" or "WCK is a vehicle for spiritual growth", etc.

Anyone have any others?

[Nick Forrer]

That was pretty exhaustive..........

[Ultimatewingchun]

"I thought it might be fun to list our favorite WCK marketing devices (that you or anyone can use to convince the public, without ever having to fight and demonstrate genuine WCK skill, that you -- and you alone -- have top-notch WCK)." (Terence)


TALK LIKE A LAWYER ???



Just couldn't resist that one...

[Ernie]

Write a book !
and then get it on Oprah's book club

smoke opium and paint your house boat red

the kung fu suit and slippers works great taking a still with a screaming look on your face while you touch some guy that goes flying


start using chinese terms to confuse the western mind into thinking your saying really profound things

be a sheep herder :D

[reneritchie]

Beat both Fedor and Arlovski during a grand prix for the unified MMA HW Championship, then put out your instructionals.

[couch]

Use the name...

Bruce Lee

...in your ad campaign.

[Knifefighter]

- Impress prospective students with your chi sao abilities. Roll chi sao a bit with them after explaining that they must try to keep forward contact with your arms and try to slap your chest by going straight up the middle. Overwhelm them with little slappy slap hits and tell them that, in reaality, those would have been devastating, fight-ending blows.

- Impress people with your lineage, even though you have really not spent that much time face to face with your teacher, nor he with his.

- Explain all the WC theories and how these theories are superior to all other fighting theories.

- Talk about all the old Hong Kong rooftop fights and how those guys really proved that WC is a devastating fighting system.

- Explain how, in the old days when WC was developed, people had to fight for their lives so WC was designed to end the fight in just a couple of seconds

- Show how you can hit several times in a second and tell them that this would surely mean a knockout against your opponent.

- Tell them that WC has groundfighting that is as good as any groundfighting art.

- Explain how WC principles can be used for a variety of activities including steering your car.

[sihing]

***removed for personal attacks and attempt at bypassing the autocensor***

[Knifefighter]

I respect guys like Ernie, Terrence, Andrew and Victor because they are actually going out there, mixing it up, examining the weaknesses of WC and plugging up the holes. These guys are honest with themselves and with others.

I don't respect the pretend, "WC is all" theoretical fighters who are taking people's money and trying to brainwash them with a bunch of unproven theoretical hogwash.

[Knifefighter]

Here's how I would market a WC school with integrity.

- Bring in quality instructors from BJJ, wrestling, boxing and weapons arts to round out the weak parts of WC.

- Take out the BS, non-workable parts of WC and replace them with things that work.

- Field a team of MMA fighters.

- Show videos of my fighters using their techniques in competitions.

[Ultimatewingchun]

Dale:

Do you teach at the current time?

If not...did you ever have a school in the past?

[Knifefighter]

No, I don't have a school. Never have.

Why do you ask?

[Knifefighter]

I teach the occasional private self-defense or BJJ session at my gym and substitute occassionally at the gym where I train BJJ.

I don't run a school because I feel that you have to sacrifice your integrity to make a martial arts business a financial success.

[AndrewS]

Favorite marketing gimmick:

Being everything to everyone. Chi-kung? We got it! Cardio? We got it! Yoga? We got it!


After that, *has* to be the German instructor (with a huge school) who was pimping his organic bananas and the need for ultrafiltered water. Guess who was selling the water filters and the bananas?

Dale,

as for a wish list for Wing Chun with integrity- EBMAS is working on, though frankly we have a ways to go, as what you're describing requires infrastructure and a serious student base. In point of fact, what you're describing is pretty much my vision for a school. Dunno if I'll ever realize it, but helping make it happen is one of my goals.

The DEWTO- the Danish WT group- is exactly what you've described, and more. They have a few fight clips up on their site, have an active BJJ program (and some weird Scandanavian grappling), have some guys from a Copenhagen MMA gym teaching MMA-based grappling, have been doing full-contact escrima for years (geared up, granted), as well as a full-contact WT program for over a decade. Add to that 2 hrs a week of mandatory free instructor training, and a sweet facililty with its own bar (beer only as of a few years back, though I heard they were trying to get a hard liquor license), and I can honestly say that someone has gotten it completely right. Check the site for some old clips of their fights.

Later,

Andrew

[donbdc]

We hire prostitutes for after practice massages. CLASS SIZE HAS DOUBLED

[old jong]

Originally posted by Knifefighter
I teach the occasional private self-defense or BJJ session at my gym and substitute occassionally at the gym where I train BJJ.

I don't run a school because I feel that you have to sacrifice your integrity to make a martial arts business a financial success.
Did the Gracies sacrified their integrity?

[Ultimatewingchun]

Not everybody who runs a successful commercial school (or chain of schools) has sacrificed integrity.

"But it's easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than it is for a rich man to enter the Kingdom of Heaven."

[Wayfaring]

FREE BEER.

2 magic marketing words that always produce stampedes.

I have no idea if it works for WCK, but it is usually the only suggestion I can ever come up with if anyone asks me for a marketing idea.



:D

[Knifefighter]

Originally posted by old jong
Did the Gracies sacrified their integrity? I believe some with very succesful schools have done so.

[Edmund]

Originally posted by Wayfaring
FREE BEER.

2 magic marketing words that always produce stampedes.



Once everyone has come around to get the beer your unravel the front part of the sign to show: "ALCOHOL FREE BEER".

[Ultimatewingchun]

Have been teaching for many years now...usually carried between 20 and 30 students...and at one point, for about a six month period - had 40 students enrolled in the school.

But for the last 3 years - I only have about 8 students who come regularly...and occasionally two or three of my older advanced students show up (who haven't been around much lately because they've moved to New Jersey or Connecticut, or whatever).

Only want three more regularly-attending students...to make 11 students and me...so that usually there will never be more than six pairs of people working out on the floor at any given time.

And these last three years have been extremely productive - precisely because so much attention can be given to everyone...and after awhile there are no more beginners...in theory - everyone will be an advanced student in the not-too-distant future.

What am I getting at?

Smaller classes get better results.

Can remember one night (during the period wherein 40 students were enrolled in the school)...when there were 29 people on the floor - and me....for a 2 hour class.

Wouldn't want to do that anymore.

Not fair to them - not fair to me.

[sihing]

I've been teaching for over 10 yrs now, and I get more enjoyment out of that than anything else in Wing Chun. There's been too many times to count that I've come into class not feeling good about things and felt refreshed after. The reason for this is that you are giving away apart of yourself in a selfless way and helping others become better people.

I prefer to teach more advanced students but recently part of my duties at the school is to teach at one of our satellite schools at this new recreation center, so for the last month and a bit I have 15 kids ranging from 4 to 13yrs and 4 older students ranging from 15 to 40yrs. I didn't think I would enjoy it that much but its turned out to be fun and a good time had by all.

There is definetly a way to teach to a commercial success and not lose integrity or quality. Of course you cannot do it all yourself, but over time you will get help with students progressing to instructors. It's unreal how much teaching others will improve your own techniques and understanding of the WC system.

James

[Phil Redmond]

You can always name a style after yourself.
PR

[Phil Redmond]

Originally posted by Knifefighter
I respect guys like Ernie, Terrence, Andrew and Victor because they are actually going out there, mixing it up, examining the weaknesses of WC and plugging up the holes. These guys are honest with themselves and with others.

I don't respect the pretend, "WC is all" theoretical fighters who are taking people's money and trying to brainwash them with a bunch of unproven theoretical hogwash.
Hmmm, I don't see my name there :D
PR

[Fresh]

Originally posted by Phil Redmond
Hmmm, I don't see my name there :D
PR

Thats because you come off like some one reasonble. You could qualify to if you would antagonize people more and write A LOT LOUDER.:D

[Nick Forrer]

Originally posted by Knifefighter
I believe some with very succesful schools have done so.

Dale:

Interested: In what way do you feel they have sacrificed their integrity? Giving out belts too easily? Charging too much? With-holding techniques?

[Phil Redmond]

Originally posted by Fresh
Thats because you come off like some one reasonble. You could qualify to if you would antagonize people more and write A LOT LOUDER.:D
The only thing I can say to that is thanks. :)
PR

[Knifefighter]

Originally posted by Phil Redmond
Hmmm, I don't see my name there :D
PR Phil- I would definitely include you in there.

[Knifefighter]

Originally posted by Nick Forrer
In what way do you feel they have sacrificed their integrity? Giving out belts too easily? Charging too much? With-holding techniques? I've seen some withholding of techniques, taking advantage of some of the students, marketing BS, etc.

As far as the belts, I would go the opposite way... withholding belts to prevent potential competition.

[couch]

Originally posted by Knifefighter

As far as the belts, I would go the opposite way... withholding belts to prevent potential competition.

At the Kenpo Karate McDojo that I went to a while back made us swear not to tell anyone where I was training and not allow to train anywhere else or look at any other schools while training there. If you did, you were expelled.

Also, the contracts there I'm sure helped their business.

But I digress...what I wanted to comment on was belts. They would hand out the belts quickly in the beginning to make you feel like you were progressing and then delay and put off private lessons and gradings as you came up to get more dough outta you!

And just my two cents about larger schools...I agree that some schools may keep their integrity of the system, but I think it's harder. At the various placed I've learned from: I've seen poor consistency between seniors, juniors being promoted early to instructor level and they end up teaching me, the *Chief Instructor* not instructing at all - more concerned with marketing and $$$, phone scripts, rules on the wall, punching in lines to fill in the time, etc.

Because a martial art is so personal, in larger schools, I feel that it would be harder to NOT create carbon copies of everyone.

"A teacher is a mere catalyst..."

Peace,
Kenton Sefcik

[Zhuge Liang]

Hi Terrence,


...snip...

Anyone have any others? [/B]

How about being ridiculously narrow-minded, refusing to see things from points of view other than your own, and relentlessly denigrating anything and anyone that doesn't fit into your world-view?

Oh, and suggesting, whether implicitly or explicitly, that your personal world view is the true world view.

Marketing Sell: Agree with what I say or you're stupid/ignorant/various labels/fill-in-the-blank.

Target Audience: Gee, I don't want to be stupid/ignorant/various labels/fill-in-the-black. I'd better agree with you!

Generalizations are fun!

;)

Regards,
Alan

[canglong]

Terence,
For someone who purports to keep it real this topics seems a far cry from that.

Everyone needs to feel sorrow to appreciate happiness, when we experience the negative we gain understanding of the positive. If your teacher were no different than any other what value would you find in him.

This thread would seem to indicate a lack of appreciation for your own teacher, his teachings and wing chun in general there is no knowledge being shared here beyond common this would be expected from hendrik. If it is your intention to be seen as a talkinghead with no clear point or knowledge to share then congratulations are in order.

[t_niehoff]

canglong wrote:

Terence,
For someone who purports to keep it real this topics seems a far cry from that.

**Isn't marketing in WCK a "real" phenomenon? Don't you think it is a problem in the WCK community? Or do you think these sorts of tactics are fine and dandy? If you do think they are a problem, doesn't discussing those problems help people recignize them for what they are?

Everyone needs to feel sorrow to appreciate happiness, when we experience the negative we gain understanding of the positive. If your teacher were no different than any other what value would you find in him.

**What has that do do with the topic at hand?

This thread would seem to indicate a lack of appreciation for your own teacher, his teachings and wing chun in general there is no knowledge being shared here beyond common this would be expected from hendrik. If it is your intention to be seen as a talkinghead with no clear point or knowledge to share then congratulations are in order.

**How does discussing WCK marketing tactics show a "lack of appreciation for your own teacher, his teachings and wing chun in general"?

[t_niehoff]

Alan,

Marketing involves using certain tactics to sell something; I have nothing for sale.

You may not like my "results oriented" POV. I expect many don't. And I don't care if anyone agrees with me or not (personally, I prefer them not to because I think much progress comes from conflict) -- what I care about is proof.

[canglong]

Don't you think it is a problem in the WCK community? In a business sense the wing chun community is no different than any other. So any conceived or legitimate problem would be consistent with that of the nature of any business community nothing more and nothing less.
**What has that do do with the topic at hand? The point is without bad marketing you would not recognize good marketing.
**How does discussing WCK marketing tactics show a "lack of appreciation for your own teacher, his teachings and wing chun in general"? It shows a clear focus on your neighbors house when your main focus of interest is best served when you focus on your own house.

[Phil Redmond]

Originally posted by Knifefighter
Phil- I would definitely include you in there.
Even though I'm only a beginner in BJJ?
Thanks Dude,
Phil

[Zhuge Liang]

Hi Terrence,


Originally posted by t_niehoff
Alan,

Marketing involves using certain tactics to sell something; I have nothing for sale.

You may not like my "results oriented" POV. I expect many don't.

Since I don't have anything to sell either, I guess neither of us can be accused marketing, and that our respective critiques don't apply to one another. :)

And I actually don't disagree with your approach in training. In fact, you have made many points that I agree with. I just don't buy that it's the one true method for everyone.


And I don't care if anyone agrees with me or not (personally, I prefer them not to because I think much progress comes from conflict) -- what I care about is proof.

I certainly have no problems with that, although I wonder if an internet forum is the best place to look for such "proof." And although progress can definitely come from conflict, if conflict gets to the point where everybody starts name-calling, becomes defensive, and are unwilling to listen to one another, I wonder how much progress can be achieved? There's got to be a better balance in there somewhere, don't you agree?

Regards,
Alan

[Miles Teg]

In the typical fashion:
You say W.C has its roots in shaolin and that it is a combination of all the best techniques from different martial arts. Then you crap on about how everything is based on logic and how you can defeat larger oponents and how the founder was a women...Throw words around like efficient, cutting edge, deadly, superior, devastating, intelligent.....

Then you introduce good old Yip Man. Then you say how you or your teacher was a back door student and the system was handed down to them as successor and dont forget to mention that you learnt all the secret techniques. Better mention that other students/lineages didn't learn the real W.C.

Talk about all the people you've beaten in the past that nobody has ever heard of or throw in a famous person and say how you beat them when they were like 15 of something. As someone mentioned throwing Bruce Lee in the mix is always good.

Oh and dont forget to charge people who want to watch a class.

[anerlich]

Then you say how you or your teacher was a back door student

I've heard of "closed door" students but not "back door" students. Perhaps there's a marketing angle there for the sexually adventurous or the pink dollar .... :p

[Miles Teg]

lol! (I knew something seemed strange when I wrote it)

Well at least it would be an orginal angle. "I learnt the real system in exchange for sexual favours". Actually it would help with the whole secretive thing and act as a good excuse for why none of the students saw this back door master.

[Chango]

Terence and others,
I have no problem with what anyone else says. I know who I am. If some one makes claims about what they teach it simply does not affect me. It does not take long for someone to identify the truth. All they have to do is learn something first hand. If what you do and who you claim you are makes you happy. Have at it!

Promotion is a part of business. Some have less then noble approaches to business practices. But that is thier cross to bare. I see no reason to set out to disprove anyone about anything. I honestly feel the truth always rises in time. Wing/Weng Chun is a great system.

The more people we can get interested in Wing/Weng chun the better our chances are for future Generations. Anyone being dishonest will eventually have to face the truth. I think some of the best students come from a previous back ground in WCK or the likes of it. So that being said I see no point in this thread or what point if any it would serve. I think it can serve as a excellent way for some people to take cheap shots at others without actually giving names. But hey what would a Wing/Weng chun sight be without shots being thrown? LOL! just when things begin to almost take a constructive shape etc..... Boom this thread comes out of the blue! LOL! But of course this forum is for entertainment. Things never get to boring around here!

Chango

[t_niehoff]

Chango wrote:

I have no problem with what anyone else says.

**Past actions seem to prove otherwise.

I know who I am. If some one makes claims about what they teach it simply does not affect me. It does not take long for someone to identify the truth. All they have to do is learn something first hand.

**That's not true -- lots of things have taken quite a while to uncover. And sometimes, even when they are disproven folks continue to believe them (for a viariety of reasons).

If what you do and who you claim you are makes you happy. Have at it!

**I agree, if they kept it to themselves. But by making public claims, doesn't that change things?

Promotion is a part of business. Some have less then noble approaches to business practices. But that is thier cross to bare. I see no reason to set out to disprove anyone about anything. I honestly feel the truth always rises in time. Wing/Weng Chun is a great system.

**I think everyone will agree that there is good promotion and bad promotion -- the UFCs were originally a Gracie promotion device, permitting them to show how effective their grooundfighting was. It worked. But to say that deceptive marketing is not a problem! They have laws prohibiting it with regard to most products (so that money isn't taken fraudulantly). It's not a matter of the "truth" coming to light someday . . . many folks are taken to the cleaners during that time.

The more people we can get interested in Wing/Weng chun the better our chances are for future Generations.

**IMO that's nonsense. It's not quantity of people, it's the quality of people. Millions of theoreticans won't make the art stronger, though it might make some people richer.

Anyone being dishonest will eventually have to face the truth.

**And in the meantime, they take folks money, give the art a bad name, etc.

I think some of the best students come from a previous back ground in WCK or the likes of it. So that being said I see no point in this thread or what point if any it would serve.

**The point is that if we can clarify what bad marketing practices are, then we can recognize them, and help folks avoid them. Moreoever, wecan let those folks know who are engaging in them that we're onto them. It would seem to me that this would actually promote a healthier WCK community. Saying, let folks say whatever they want to get money from because someday the truth will be revealed doesn't promote honesty or integrity.

I think it can serve as a excellent way for some people to take cheap shots at others without actually giving names.

**If someone isn't doing these things, how could anyone take a cheap shot at them? And if they are, then I don't think any shot would be cheap.

But hey what would a Wing/Weng chun sight be without shots being thrown? LOL! just when things begin to almost take a constructive shape etc..... Boom this thread comes out of the blue! LOL!

**"Comes out of the blue"? New threads pop up all the time; new discussions start everyday.

But of course this forum is for entertainment. Things never get to boring around here!

**It can be entertaining and informative.

[Bartje]

Terence: "Marketing involves using certain tactics to sell something; I have nothing for sale . . .

Bartje: marketing also involves 'selling' of other things like opinions etc.

Terence: "... "results oriented" POV"

Bartje: . . . is also an aspect of Marketing . . .

rgds

Bartje

[t_niehoff]

Some might see "product testing" as a marketing device. I see it as a means to determine whether the marketing claims are true or not.

[Chango]

Terence,
I can only say that I have no issue with someone making public claims. I do what I do and in the end the people that I'm fortune enough to come in contact with will hopefully see what I'm all about. The other guys talking loud about themselves have very little influence on me. Wing/Weng Chun has so much to offer the world I don't see any point in chasing down anyone who claims to be something they are not. In public or in private it simply has nothing to do with what I do. Maybe you can't see it this way and feel a need to cruisade against anyone you feel who is not fit to make what ever claims. But for me it seems to be a waiste of time and energy. Hey maybe you can help some people. Who knows.
heck just for the record I have get mine in here. LOL!

Bad Marketing tool.
1. Claim to be a student of one grandmaster becuase you some type of relationship and photos with him even though your kung fu is nothing like his. (just using his face and Name)

2. Take concepts and ideas from various lineages put them in your own psudo-lineage of a system. Then claim all lineages had these things or your the only one gifted enough to see them.
while bad mouthing other established Grandmasters.

3.Claim to know one system then when the person pays and use his/her resources to get to you to learn. Waiste both of thier time by telling them your opinion of what your version is of what they already know.

4. Write articles about any Grand master of lineage that has been published with out using thier name in attempts to gain yourself a name by argueing public with some one with recognition.

5. discount the importance of Mo Duk and ettiquette to excuse your lack of real credentials. Also minimize the importatance of a notable Sifu/master/Grand Master recognizing your qualifications to teach and pass on the system so you can teach becuase you think your ready.

6. leach and latch on and attack anyone that seems to be finding sucess in creating interest in what they are doing. So you can be viewed as thier contemporary.

LOL! these are some new ones for the list. All in fun and for entertainment. But once again what ever you do is fine with me. It does not affect me in any way. It's your own Karma etc...

Chango

[t_niehoff]

Chango wrote:

I can only say that I have no issue with someone making public claims. I do what I do and in the end the people that I'm fortune enough to come in contact with will hopefully see what I'm all about. The other guys talking loud about themselves have very little influence on me. Wing/Weng Chun has so much to offer the world

**"Much to offer the world"? OK . . . .

I don't see any point in chasing down anyone who claims to be something they are not. In public or in private it simply has nothing to do with what I do. Maybe you can't see it this way and feel a need to cruisade against anyone you feel who is not fit to make what ever claims. But for me it seems to be a waiste of time and energy. Hey maybe you can help some people. Who knows.

**Are we "chasing anyone down" here?

heck just for the record I have get mine in here. LOL!

**It's nice to see that after criticizing me for bringing the topic up and telling me how you "don't see any point" to these discussions and how it "has nothing to do with what you do" and then you join in!

Bad Marketing tool.
1. Claim to be a student of one grandmaster becuase you some type of relationship and photos with him even though your kung fu is nothing like his. (just using his face and Name)

**What is "kung fu"? Are you saying one person's hard work done over time is nothing like someone else's hard work done over time? Or are you talking about the personal expression of fighting skills? IME, individuals should remain individuals, and their marital art expression should be invividual. Do you think instructor and trainee should "look alike"?

2. Take concepts and ideas from various lineages put them in your own psudo-lineage of a system. Then claim all lineages had these things or your the only one gifted enough to see them.
while bad mouthing other established Grandmasters.

**You keep using the "grandmaster" title? Who awards these titles? What makes someone a grandmaster? You have an interesting perspective thinking "concepts and ideas" are property belonging to some "lineage".

3.Claim to know one system then when the person pays and use his/her resources to get to you to learn. Waiste both of thier time by telling them your opinion of what your version is of what they already know.

**I have no idea what you're talking about.

4. Write articles about any Grand master of lineage that has been published with out using thier name in attempts to gain yourself a name by argueing public with some one with recognition.

**Ah, I get it -- don't criticize a "grandmaster" publically.

5. discount the importance of Mo Duk and ettiquette to excuse your lack of real credentials. Also minimize the importatance of a notable Sifu/master/Grand Master recognizing your qualifications to teach and pass on the system so you can teach becuase you think your ready.

**Why do you think your notions of "mo duk and ettiquette" should be imposed on others? Isn't the question of whether someone is ready to teach something determined by their results (teaching)?

6. leach and latch on and attack anyone that seems to be finding sucess in creating interest in what they are doing. So you can be viewed as thier contemporary.

**Do you think of questioning or criticism as an "attack"?

LOL! these are some new ones for the list. All in fun and for entertainment. But once again what ever you do is fine with me. It does not affect me in any way. It's your own Karma etc..

**I guess . . . if you beleive in things like karma.

[canglong]

**Are we "chasing anyone down" here? If not its just another example of someone claiming one bad apple spoils the whole bunch which is incorrect and a waste of time.
**It's nice to see that after criticizing me for bringing the topic up and telling me how you "don't see any point" to these discussions and how it "has nothing to do with what you do" and then you join in! This is akin to someone saying I saw 2 students and one teacher fighting on the playground today.
**You keep using the "grandmaster" title? Who awards these titles? What makes someone a grandmaster? You have an interesting perspective thinking "concepts and ideas" are property belonging to some "lineage". Your perspective is actually the interesting one. Some concepts and ideas today that might be considered intellectual property is not the point. The point is if you can give credit to or even acknowledge your Sifu then you should be able to understand that credit of your Sifu's knowledge should always be bestowed upon the correct group or individuals that introduced this knowledge to your Sifu and so on and so forth, this too is one way of keeping the history of the art alive.
**Ah, I get it -- don't criticize a "grandmaster" publically. Why do you feel the need to critizie anyone publically.
**Why do you think your notions of "mo duk and ettiquette" should be imposed on others? Isn't the question of whether someone is ready to teach something determined by their results (teaching)? Mo duk can be considered the rule of law surely you of all people can understand the need for it.
**Do you think of questioning or criticism as an "attack"? The are a number of variables that actually would determine this first and foremost the manner of delivery comes to mind.

[lawrenceofidaho]

Originally posted by canglong
If not its just another example of someone claiming one bad apple spoils the whole bunch which is incorrect and a waste of time.

People generally buy apples with an expectation that it will taste good and provide them with a certain amount of nutrition, -just as people begin martial arts training with expectations of learning some functional fighting techniques, and not just being spoon fed a bunch of B.S. from their instructors (who are "supposed" to know better).

"One bad apple" doesn't necessarily spoil the whole bunch, but isn't it important to know what kinds of things you should be looking for if you wish to avoid one of those bad apples so you don't purchase one of them by mistake?

I can't imagine why anyone would begrudge individuals from educating others on how to spot bad apples, (excepting a farmer who tries to peddle such questionable fruit himself.)

:confused:

-Lawrence

[canglong]

Lawrence
The apple you won't eat may taste pretty good to others.

[Chango]

Hello Terence,
Once again I only did this all in fun you know entertainment purposes. LOL! It is clear that you have missed my point. I don't think you will get it this time around so I will just agree to disagree with you.

It seems you have no respect for anyone who has earned a position as a instructor. Regardless if I disagree with them or not I would not use the public format to show my differences. It is simply a question of tact at that point. If a person has been recognized by a lineage to be quaified to represent them. I personally feel a certian amount of respect is due. If not for the lineage but for the hardwork that is put into the training to get there. Not to mention that if that person has students. Atleast out of respect for them. Maybe this was not a lesson your Sifu has given you. But I find that this helps me to interact with other martial artist in a more positive way. This basic courtesy seems to me to be one of the most basic form of "mo duk".

I think you and I have a very different approach to things. I seek deeper understanding of what people have to offer. Even if I disagree with them. It seems by your words you seek to criticize and toss away what ever that does not fit in your box. I find that most martial artist and especieally Wing/weng chun folks strongly and honestly believe in what they are doing. This strong since of self sometimes gets in the way.

I have never personally seen someone publicly criticize one of them and they change thier mind. From Grand mast to sifu or the casual student. Maybe you find this method to be effective but that does not seem to be the case here on this forum or other places. So maybe if you try to understand what I'm telling you. You might see what I meant by a waste of time. I simply participated in this becuase I enjoy word sparring with you. I think you know that after how many years of you and I posting on the opposite side of things? I find it funny how you still manage to fragment what I say and pose your arguement on my words taken out of context. For example:

**Ah, I get it -- don't criticize a "grandmaster" publically

No Terence if you read what I posted it would be the intentions of the said "Evil Market guy" to ride on the back of a persons noterity. By argueing with them. You know putting your name on the map in terms of people knowing who you are. This is a ploy sometimes used by the non-leading brand. do you get it now?

I thought my list was just as good as any that has been posted. Why do you have issue with mine? the last one was about the bait and switch tactic used by some instuctors. You know You agreed to learn this but they choose to teach you thier own version of that not having been recognized to be qualified to teach either of the systems. that sucks really bad and only the lowest of dogs would do such a thing do you not agree?

:D
Chango

[t_niehoff]

Chango wrote:

It seems you have no respect for anyone who has earned a position as a instructor. Regardless if I disagree with them or not I would not use the public format to show my differences. It is simply a question of tact at that point. If a person has been recognized by a lineage to be quaified to represent them. I personally feel a certian amount of respect is due. If not for the lineage but for the hardwork that is put into the training to get there. Not to mention that if that person has students. Atleast out of respect for them. Maybe this was not a lesson your Sifu has given you. But I find that this helps me to interact with other martial artist in a more positive way. This basic courtesy seems to me to be one of the most basic form of "mo duk".

**That may be *your* idea of "mo duk" but I don't subscribe to *your way* of thinking. These "instructors" are selling a product, a service. They have become part of a commerical world. So they **put themselves** into the position of anyone selling a service or product. The mere fact it is a chinese martial art doesn't in some way make them immune from facing questions of product quality, qualifications, etc.

I think you and I have a very different approach to things. I seek deeper understanding of what people have to offer. Even if I disagree with them. It seems by your words you seek to criticize and toss away what ever that does not fit in your box. I find that most martial artist and especieally Wing/weng chun folks strongly and honestly believe in what they are doing. This strong since of self sometimes gets in the way.

**I don't mind anyone selling anything. All I ask is that they don't use deceptive practices in selling their product. How can anyone rationally argue that it's fine to do so? We, as a society, don't want people practicing medicine that aren't qualified, we don't want them to make claims that they can't prove, etc. But that's fine with martial arts?

**BTW, if you are trying to rehash what went on between Benny and Robert, I'll be gald to publically talk about it but I don't think you really want to go there. As I've said before, if there was/is a disagreement between Benny and Robert, that is their affair. You and I weren't there (only Benny and Robert were) so we don't *know* what happened (only Benny and Robert do). You have one view as told to you by Benny; I have another view as told to me by Robert. So all we can do here is argue two hearsay POVs.

[Chango]

Terence,

<snip>**That may be *your* idea of "mo duk" but I don't subscribe to *your way* of thinking.

-I think this has been made aboundantly clear by this thread!LOL!

<snip>**I don't mind anyone selling anything. All I ask is that they don't use deceptive practices in selling their product. How can anyone rationally argue that it's fine to do so? We, as a society, don't want people practicing medicine that aren't qualified, we don't want them to make claims that they can't prove, etc. But that's fine with martial arts?

-I agree with what you have to say here about deceptive practices etc.... But I think you are looking past my point about showing the proper respect. I know this may be a hard idea to grasp but there are things out there that you may not know about some lineages Sifu's etc... and just becuase it does not fit in your little box. But once again I don't expect you to be able to see beyond your ego (I honestly don't mean this in a bad way) to possibly revisit where you like us all have been wrong about some things in the past. To handle it in the proper way helps in keeping your foot out of your mouth. It also helps others except the fact that you are human and could have misjudged something or someone.


<snip>**BTW, if you are trying to rehash what went on between Benny and Robert, I'll be gald to publically talk about it but I don't think you really want to go there. As I've said before, if there was/is a disagreement between Benny and Robert, that is their affair. You and I weren't there (only Benny and Robert were) so we don't *know* what happened (only Benny and Robert do). You have one view as told to you by Benny; I have another view as told to me by Robert. So all we can do here is argue two hearsay POVs.

-First of all if you wanted to go there I have no problem visiting that subject publicly or what ever. However I don't make it a point to speak for my Sifu or anybody else for that matter. But It's all been put on the table from square one. So you can keep the smug "you don't want to go there" act to yourself. However I was not actually referring to Robert. LOL! How ever through your being sensitive about the subject of the bait and switch tactic being some how connected to Robert and my Sifu's interaction. It really drives home my point about this type of thread being used as a cheap shot tool.


<snip>**Why do you think your notions of "mo duk and ettiquette" should be imposed on others?

- A better question would be why do you think your notion of what is good and not good martial arts be imposed on others? LOL! A man looks in the mirror and scows in the face of the retch standing before him. Then he realizes....Roflol!

<snip>**Isn't the question of whether someone is ready to teach something determined by their results (teaching)?

- once again your logic has a huge gap here! um Terence who else would be more qualified to tell others that you know enough to represent your lineage's teachings, methods, culture, phylosophy etc... then a recognized teacher themselves? I would like to know also how are you judging your results Chi sau skills? speaches on the subject? etc... LOL! there are many ways to judge these things your student could be gifted in one area and not in another does this reflect the ability of the teacher? I think the tradition of someone being recognized by his/her sifu to teach does still hold gravity for the most part. does it mean that this person is skilled in the area that you choose to judge them by? no! It just means they have the ability to help others alone thier own path within that particular lineage's teachings. I personally understand how challenging this can be as it takes alot giving and recieving on both ends.

As I said before people knowingly a willingly decieving the public will show thier true faces eventually. You may feel like threads like this will stop them from taking advantage of some. But I seriously doubt it. But hey if you feel like you are bringing some awarness. Then go on wit your bad self! It's fun to do. But I still question how effective it really is but of course I could be wrong and if I'am I would loose nothing by admitting it! Owed in part to my practice of good solid "mo duk".

Not to go all "halmark" on you. But Terence believe it or not I have respect for you as you are a martial artist as I'm a martial artist seeking only the truth in what we do. If you don't get it by now well you may never get it. What say you council? LOL!

Chango

(come on guys give some credit for the old 70's saying "go on wit your bad self")

[hunt1]

Jeez, after 7 years or so this nonsense is still going on!

Wing Chuns own version of West Side Story perhaps!?

On one side we have the "West Side Chus" the other side the" 20K Boys".

You've been at each other so long the show should be ready for Broadway!

So come on, stop the singing and dancing and get the rumble finished so the rest of the Wing Chun world doesnt have to hear it any longer!

[Chango]

Hunt1,
what set you claimin? LOL!
I honestly have nothing against Terence. I admit I critcized the threads Validity. But I wrote it off as just fun thing to do. But joining in on the "fun" was some how unexceptable. Maybe he felt like I didn't have a right to join in once I criticized the thread. maybe I did not properly respect the thread. LOL!! It's all in fun for me at this point.

Chango

[anerlich]

I always like this angry retort by some poster whose identity I'd forgotten, along these lines:

"Wing Chun is a jealous mistress who allows you no consort with others."

Lineage and naming of successors can give some indication of legitimacy. There is however ample room for abuse in such a structure.

"So come on, stop the singing and dancing and get the rumble finished so the rest of the Wing Chun world doesnt have to hear it any longer!"

Yeah, right, let's get back to sniping against grapplers and crosstrainers.

[t_niehoff]

Chango,

**To keep it brief, I'll just touch the main points of your post --

I agree with what you have to say here about deceptive practices etc.... But I think you are looking past my point about showing the proper respect.

**Respect is earned, not demanded. And most often, many use "respect" and similar sentiments as a shield -- "how dare you ask such questions!", "you don't have the right status to ask such questions", etc.

A better question would be why do you think your notion of what is good and not good martial arts be imposed on others? LOL!

**Didn't you say above "I agree with what you have to say here about deceptive practices etc.... "? You can't have ot both ways -- that we ask the hard questions to determine whether or not the marketing is deceptive but at the same time show the proper respect (I guess we should call a swinder "grandmaster" to make you happy!).

once again your logic has a huge gap here! um Terence who else would be more qualified to tell others that you know enough to represent your lineage's teachings, methods, culture, phylosophy etc... then a recognized teacher themselves?

**You're missing the point -- I was talking about their ability as a teacher, not having access to the info. Someone can 'know enough to represent your lineage's teachings, methods, culture, phylosophy etc...' but not be able to teach it well to others. Einstein was by all accounts a terrible physics teacher. You judge someone teaching ability by their results. FWIW, I agree that access to the info is important and that's why lineage is important: it shows access to the info. That doesn't mean one is skilled or one can teach, however.

[curtis]

Hello guy!
I would like to jump in and say I am enjoying this topic.

As I see it the Martial Arts are a hard sell.
First off, only a few % of the public is entrested in the arts. Secondly, there are lots of arts to choose from. and Lastly how do you sell it to people who don't really have a lot of money to start with?
I find most M/Aest are not in the wealthy segment of the population.And if they are, they are normally cheep BUGGERS. ;-) ( I wont call anyone's name out, but I sorta fit into that deception too.)

So the Big question is how do you sell it. ITS THE BEST! well Ford tried that with the Ethel and It didn't work! (It was a very good car, just to far ahead of its time.)
Using Names to get people? those people you are really trying to sell don't care about names and Don't know the names anyhow.

Now here is a idea.
go to the local nursing home, and look for a old Chinese man,(you know the one who looks like Fu-Man-choo?) and pay him to sit in the connor of your school and watch classes.
you can go over to him every so often and talk to him in private,(out of hearing range of your students)
You can tell everyone he is a great master from china and your master. But because of his health and age, (somewhere around 200 yrs old.) he dos not want to deal with people anymore. but still wants to see his Art growing, So he stops by to watch.... Stuff like that!

Sound good?? people like to think that are getting something that no body else is getting, and private instructions from the GREATEST Martial arts teacher from china , just might impress them. ;-) I just cant go on!!! ;-) ha, ha...

All kidding aside, the martial arts are a hard sell. Those who do well must sell, and sell and sell there art. much like local gym. the biggest problem is, Is the teacher any good? and dose he have repor with the students, and lastly dose he teach the art well .(what ever art he/she dos.)

Perhaps we all could pitch in and get a new action star movie going. after all even chuck, and van-dam and not forgetting the Karate Kid. have helped out All the arts, by getting people excited about the Possibilities
As I see it that's the REAL trick.

[anerlich]

You can tell everyone he is a great master from china and your master. But because of his health and age, (somewhere around 200 yrs old.) he dos not want to deal with people anymore. but still wants to see his Art growing, So he stops by to watch.... Stuff like that!

I like your thinking, but I still think the standard model (where the great master is dead and so cannot get "creative" or fall off his chair or complain that you said he could watch TV) works better.

It's hard to argue with the dead, and your private conversations with them can be anything you want them to be. They can even change over time or be tailored for different marks^H^H^H^H^H prospective students!

[curtis]

Well I did suggest that he be somewhere around 200 yrs old! ;-)

he could die any time after your students get going. JUST THINK OF IT, Thay were lucky enough to train under THE GREATEST Grandmaster there ever was. Before he sadly died! :-)

[curtis]

If you want controversy, in two or three yrs, (you could use months if you wanted) Fu's son (Fu- on -u ) shows up to over see hes families art.
Then you can argue that, That's not the way Fu did it!
Or latter we have made a Fu modifations to the art, and We believe in our harts that , this NEW way is exactly what Fu would have done it if hes had lived,Just a little longer. ;-)