The Sweet Sound “Wing Chun”…

[Ali Hamad Rahim]

I believe the true sound of “Wing Chun” is nothing more than the principles & concepts of the system,, when studied & learned correctly it becomes the heart or engine of the Wing Chun’s fighting techniques… you need a number of good attributes (principles & concepts) to bring your “Wing Chun” to life (empowering the simple techniques that you may have in your arsenal),, knowledge of principles & concepts will also help keep you calm and sure of your fighting techniques… Just as a house being built,, you start off with a good foundation to the house fame work or skeleton of the house,, then the walls,, windows & roof… Probably not in that order but all together makes a home… If the foundation,, walls or roof are not strong,, then the house will crumble…

Originally posted by old jong:

I understand what you mean but let me illustrate my point on this subject of "categorization" Let's take a jazz player as an example. If he wants to improvise freely, he must first learn and practice many categorized skills witch include; many types of scales, chords, arpegios, patterns, substitutions, ETC...He must do his "wood shedding" as it is said in the field. Then, using his knowledge he can "flow" with it in an intuitive manner and blow on a tune or theme. This is the same with any martial art. There are things to be learned and ingrained in the nervous system before it can be applied in a natural and flowing manner in actual combat. This is when you can forget about it and simply play as said Miles Davis before.

-Michel.

montrealwingchun.com (http://montrealwingchun.com)

Old Jong speaks of an individual that had to learn many different musical concepts and principles before he/she could play with any precision or confidence that would give their music the flavorful quality sound that audiences crave… This idea can be expanded to a group; a band comes together to cover a song,, each musician has to learn their part, putting their instruments together to come to one conclusion,, which is the song played the way it is supposed to be played…

Here are some examples of principles and concepts that will bring your Sil Lim Tao to life:

1. Stay with what comes follow what goes…
2. He goes hard,, you go soft… (and vice versa)
3. He goes fast, you go slow… (and vice versa)
4. Always maintain chum in both top and bottom
triangles…
5. Attack the attack…

There are many more principles & concepts… Learning and mastering “Wing Chun” principles & concepts will make your “Wing Chun” stronger and stronger. It will bring movements of the “Sil Lim Tao form” to life so that they become fighting tools… Fighting according to the “Wing Chun principles & concepts” in most cases can always defeat technique. While one is just thinking of throwing & kicking,, they will have no substance behind their techniques and are often wild and unsure of themselves in combat… Adding principles and concepts to the throwing & kicking techniques will develop substance in your “Wing Chun”… It’s just my opinion. I am not saying it’s the right way or the wrong way, I’m just saying it is…

Ali Hamad Rahim.

detroitwingchun.com (http://detroitwingchun.com)

[jonp]

yea interesting stuff

i think if you understand the principles and concepts and have an idea of what wingchun is about then applications etc.. can reveal themselves to you.

many people i know train application after application when a grasp of the concept behind the application would allow them to explore wing chun for themselves rather than relying on being told how to do something.

i agree with what jong said too, training attributes and skills that make u more able to deal with situations that occur, rather than trying to predict situations and training to counter them.

peace.

[t_niehoff]

I have a different view -- IMO and IME reliance on "concepts" (or principles) is primarily for beginners. Concepts are broad guidlelines that are typically valid and are context specific (something often overlooked). They provide beginners some sense of order (guidance) in their attempts to apply their WCK tools. As one progresses in skill, their reliance on "concepts" diminishes.

[jonp]

you may well be right t. but as i am a beginner then i find these principles invaluble in my learning.

im still in the process of sharpening my tools, ie perfecting their technique and learning how to apply them, and to be honest i think ill be at this stage for quite some time.

so, are you saying that as your attributes build you know what you are capable of and/or what is possible with your tools, so you need the concepts less and less? (and are therefore free to apply your wck as you feel?)

[old jong]

Learning Wing Chun is not about "having a view" or something. A practitioner has to assume that he don't know before being able to learn something.The principles can be analysed but more importantly,they have to be ingrained to a very deep level.If a student start to have "views" and think more about applications rather than development,he actually stop learning.He is a Wing Chun drop-out and a failure in regard to the system.He limits himself to what he can make work and discard what he can't make to work,thinking that it is of no value if he can't use it in sparring.
Wing Chun is a lot more that a tan,fook or bong sau.It is a life long learning endavour if it is taken seriously.It is a lot more easier to simply turn it into MMA and enjoy more rapid and superficial results.It always depend on the practitioner inrerests and expectations and if he needs to reassure himself about his secret feelings of insecurity.

[t_niehoff]

jonp,

Yeah, that's sort of what I mean -- as your *skill* and *experience* increases, you rely on them because you can. Beginners don't have experience to draw on in making "decisions" so rules or concepts fill that gap; but these are contextual and don't always provide adequate guidance.

-------

oldjong,

Principles aren't "ingrained", habits are. The "principles" help to guide us in terms of what good fighting habits to ingrain. Experience, however, replaces concepts. Sometimes that experience tells us to do what the principles told us (after all, that's why they were used in the first place); sometimes our experience tells us to violate those principles (general ideas). WCK is like any physical activity -- like swimming it can be a lifelong activity, but it doesn't need to be.

[old jong]

Originally posted by t_niehoff


-oldjong,
Principles aren't "ingrained", habits are. The "principles" help to guide us in terms of what good fighting habits to ingrain. Experience, however, replaces concepts. Sometimes that experience tells us to do what the principles told us (after all, that's why they were used in the first place); sometimes our experience tells us to violate those principles (general ideas). WCK is like any physical activity -- like swimming it can be a lifelong activity, but it doesn't need to be.

No!...Principles are to be ingrained.Habits are only habits and they can be bad or good depending on your understanding of the principles.Also,personal experiences can make us do many crasy things if we don't take care.This is the main reason that so many people fall back on other things when they realise that they did not study and practiced enough on these principles.I understand that many will not make Wing Chun a life long activity.All have their own reasons,good or bad.

[Ernie]

The sweet sound of wing Chun
Sounds like a bunch of chicks fighting over a one size fits all prom dress at a Nordstrom’s woman’s half yearly sale
:eek:

[t_niehoff]

Principles/concepts are theory (ideas); you can't engrain a theory. A person can't do or perform a concept or a principle, they can only do or perform an action. Ask someone to show you a concept and they'll perform some action that they say "demonstrates" that idea. So if you have some idea that gives you a general guideline (concept or principle) for actions, you can use that as a guide to engrain those habitual actions (habits). For example, you can teach a student the "concept" of always stepping with the foot closest to the direction he wants to move (move the front foot first if stepping forward, back foot first if stepping back, right foot first if stepping to the right). That concept gives the beginner some guidance in developing certain movement habits.

[old jong]

Originally posted by t_niehoff
Principles/concepts are theory (ideas); you can't engrain a theory. A person can't do or perform a concept or a principle, they can only do or perform an action. Ask someone to show you a concept and they'll perform some action that they say "demonstrates" that idea. So if you have some idea that gives you a general guideline (concept or principle) for actions, you can use that as a guide to engrain those habitual actions (habits). For example, you can teach a student the "concept" of always stepping with the foot closest to the direction he wants to move (move the front foot first if stepping forward, back foot first if stepping back, right foot first if stepping to the right). That concept gives the beginner some guidance in developing certain movement habits.

You chose to view principles as theory. (ideas) without any profound development values.Others see things differently and understand that the principles are in fact the
training method inherent in Wing Chun ,not just some guidelines or trick ideas.

[Kevin Bell]

Seriously when it was deserved and you've hit the threat so hard you ripped the ligaments in his neck and he's sparked out cold... Well theres no sweeter sound

[Ali Hamad Rahim]

I believe that the main essential of a car is its fluids (oil, radiator fluid, transmission fluid and or water in the battery)… These things must be kept up @ all times,, if not the car will run badly or even break down… I believe that the principle of wing chun must always come in to play during the entire life of your wing chun development,, just as a car,, if not it will break down also.

Ali Hamad Rahim.

[detroitwingchun.com (http://detroitwingchun.com)

[Spark]

Originally posted by Ernie
The sweet sound of wing Chun
Sounds like a bunch of chicks fighting over a one size fits all prom dress at a Nordstrom’s woman’s half yearly sale
:eek:

What's a Nordstrom?

:D

[SAAMAG]

Originally posted by old jong
Learning Wing Chun is not about "having a view" or something. A practitioner has to assume that he don't know before being able to learn something.The principles can be analysed but more importantly,they have to be ingrained to a very deep level.If a student start to have "views" and think more about applications rather than development,he actually stop learning.He is a Wing Chun drop-out and a failure in regard to the system.He limits himself to what he can make work and discard what he can't make to work,thinking that it is of no value if he can't use it in sparring.
Wing Chun is a lot more that a tan,fook or bong sau.It is a life long learning endavour if it is taken seriously

Hey OJ, I think what you're trying to say here is that one needs to go beyond the technique level and combine it with the concepts behind it all, what makes wing chun actually "work" (in theory). If this is so, then I wholeheartily agree with you there. The techniques provide a means to end, a methodology of applying a technique. Is it the only method one can use an example of the theory? No...but that's how we all grow and develop in different ways even though we all practice wing chun.



It is a lot more easier to simply turn it into MMA and enjoy more rapid and superficial results.It always depend on the practitioner inrerests and expectations and if he needs to reassure himself about his secret feelings of insecurity.

I must disagree with you on this one, and you probably knew this was coming...from at least someone. People that practice more then one art usually do so either out the love of learning different things, or because they've found through application that it may be more suitable (in real life) to learn these things in order to become a more "complete" individual. The results, to me, are no more superficial then assuming techniques will work without testing them. In all honesty, the results, are more real then any found in the typical wing chun kwoon. The insecurity you speak of, comes from knowing that although you have faith in your art, the "other guys" just might be onto something, and you don't want to feel as if you've wasted all your time learning one art and becoming no more an effective fighter then you were 20 years ago. (This is not in regards to you personally Jong, but to those who have that mindset....so no disrespect is intended.)

Just my two cents

[Ernie]

Originally posted by Spark
What's a Nordstrom?

:D
http://store.nordstrom.com/Default.asp?&cm_ven=google&cm_cat=search&cm_pla=keyword&cm_ite=nordstrom

:D

[old jong]

Originally posted by Vankuen

I must disagree with you on this one, and you probably knew this was coming...from at least someone. People that practice more then one art usually do so either out the love of learning different things, or because they've found through application that it may be more suitable (in real life) to learn these things in order to become a more "complete" individual. The results, to me, are no more superficial then assuming techniques will work without testing them. In all honesty, the results, are more real then any found in the typical wing chun kwoon. The insecurity you speak of, comes from knowing that although you have faith in your art, the "other guys" just might be onto something, and you don't want to feel as if you've wasted all your time learning one art and becoming no more an effective fighter then you were 20 years ago. (This is not in regards to you personally Jong, but to those who have that mindset....so no disrespect is intended.)

Just my two cents

What I meant was that it is a lot easier to learn a collection of crude moves than ingraining a suttle system like Wing Chun.Most (IMO) practitioners quit studying seriously before they reach this level or start compensating with various things outside of the system.

Crosstraining is not the same thing IMO.

[Ali Hamad Rahim]

Originally posted by Ernie
The sweet sound of wing Chun
Sounds like a bunch of chicks fighting over a one size fits all prom dress at a Nordstrom’s woman’s half yearly sale
:eek:

;) Be careful,, seems like a personal experienced to me…

Ali Hamad Rahim.

detroitwingchun.com (http://detroitwingchun.com)

[Ali Hamad Rahim]

;)

[Ernie]

Originally posted by Ali Hamad Rahim
;) Be careful,, seems like a personal experienced to me…

Ali Hamad Rahim.

detroitwingchun.com (http://detroitwingchun.com)
hey i'm not the one wearing a dress [ head dress ] ;)

[Ali Hamad Rahim]

Originally posted by Ernie
hey i'm not the one wearing a dress [ head dress ] ;)

I ran right into that one... The garm is not a dress,, the kefia and kufa [ head dress ],, they are all traditional muslum wear...
I see that one's religon is not sacred on this forum,, I'm the one who needs to be careful... I guess its all in fun anyway...

ps

I wear pants under the garm.... ;) take care Ernie...

Ali Hamad Rahim.

detroitwingchun.com (http://detroitwingchun.com)

[Ernie]

Originally posted by Ali Hamad Rahim
I ran right into that one... The garm is not a dress,, the kefia and kufa [ head dress ],, they are all traditional muslum wear...
I see that one's religon is not sacred on this forum,, I'm the one how needs to careful... I guess its all in fun anyway...

ps

I wear pants under the garm.... ;) take care Ernie...

back in the day i ran with some 5% er's from the nation
another life time ago

and yes nothing is sacred when my twisted sense of humor kicks in :D

peace be with you ;)

[Ali Hamad Rahim]

Originally posted by Kevin Bell
Seriously when it was deserved and you've hit the threat so hard you ripped the ligaments in his neck and he's sparked out cold... Well theres no sweeter sound

I've actually done that to someone before,, scared the h*ll out of me… you’re right,, thats a cool sound… but what worried me,, is what hit my mind after he hits the ground,, even when they desreved it,, but I always find a way to like it go... maybe ten seconds or so,, after I see his leg or arm twitching... only then will I find a of sigh of relief… take care Kevin... ;)

Ali Hamad Rahim.

detroitwingchun.com (http://detroitwingchun.com)

[Ali Hamad Rahim]

Here is a clip of my students working out,, before we start working on the DVD footage this morning… Nelson demonstrates an anti grapping technique @ the end of the clip,, using pure “Wing Chun”… Showing how attacking the attack,, timing,,using the wedge and chumming can work against a double-leg take down or waist tackle… Me myself,, just having fun… They are in my furnished basement,, so were not able to go full contact…

Here is that clip (http://detroitwingchun.com/pool.htm)

Ali Hamad Rahim.

detroitwingchun.com (http://detroitwingchun.com)

[old jong]

Hey Ali!
One thing is certain I can beat you....At pool!...;) :D

[Ali Hamad Rahim]

Old Jong,, we just love you here in Detroit... stay tight "Big Mike"...

Ali Hamad Rahim.

detroitwingchun.com (http://detroitwingchun.com)

[old jong]

Hey Ali! We have to meet one of these days!...;)

[Kevin Bell]

Originally posted by Ali Hamad Rahim
I've actually done that to someone before,, scared the h*ll out of me… you’re right,, thats a cool sound… but what worried me,, is what hit my mind after he hits the ground,, even when they desreved it,, but I always find a way to like it go... maybe ten seconds or so,, after I see his leg or arm twitching... only then will I find a of sigh of relief… take care Kevin... ;)

Ali Hamad Rahim.

detroitwingchun.com (http://detroitwingchun.com)

Actually that was one of two citizens arrests ive had the misfortune to be involved in. The guy smashed into me whilst i was minding my own business walking out of a record shop pushing my daughter in her pushchair, he was caught stealing with an acomplice and a fight broke out with the security guards. I fell over the pushchair got up pi##ed off.I looked up saying something along the lines of "what the ####'s going on" to which he replied by punching me square on the forehead. He must of thought he put me away because he turnt around to beckon his accomplice to run as he turned back around he ran into a right hander. Out cold for what seemed like ages, ambulance crew/police turned up etc and he couldnt straighten his head due to a "cricked" neck and a busted jaw ha ha.. Personally i felt no remorse and couldnt of cared less about his condition in fact it took all my resolve not continue...Funny thing was i was thinking about Wing Chun prior to that as the record i just bought was recommened to me by the guy who taught me Wing Chun.

Weezer green album i recommend it!!

Cheers
Kev

[Ali Hamad Rahim]

Thats cool,, I see you dig the “Sex Pistol”… when I was a young fellow I use to play in a band called “Son of Sam”,, it was “Punk Rock” of course… I use to hang out with “Wally” & “Big John” from the “The Exploited”… My band also open up for “GBH”,, “Angelic Upstarts”,, "Discharge" and the “Clash”,, Boy those was the good old days… I was out my mind then,, you talk about your Marsh Pits,, ( “Slam Dancing”),, man I’m blessed to be alive…

Ali Hamad Rahim.

detroitwingchun.com (http://detroitwingchun.com)

[YungChun]

Originally posted by t_niehoff
Principles/concepts are theory (ideas); you can't engrain a theory. A person can't do or perform a concept or a principle, they can only do or perform an action.

This is patently false.

Training concepts means training how the brain organizes information and evaluates a problem; the ability of humans to do this is well documented and accepted by mainstream science. How the brain organizes information and processes information can make all the difference in the world - it can simplify a complex problem into a simpler one i.e. 4 or 6 gate theory - occupying the line, facing the ball, etc, something critical for combat, which leaves the fighter with little time to process information. And this is the reasoning for every component in the system – to shorten reaction time.

The proof in conceptual learning is the ability of the learner to solve new problems; so you don't need to train the student how to receive each and every kind of kick or punch, rather you train him how to deal with various kinds of energy by using the line and the other concepts in the system; this allows the student to apply concepts to a wide variety of problems within the scope of the theory and solve them. Much like math, you may never have seen a particular equation before but by using math you can solve the problem; this is critical since, like math, no fighter as time to train a specific reaction to every single kind of attack; he must be able to transcend the specific and work in the general and do it quickly, thus simplifying the problem is mandatory and also quite possible.

[t_niehoff]

YungChun wrote:

Training concepts means training how the brain organizes information and evaluates a problem; the ability of humans to do this is well documented and accepted by mainstream science.

**I accept that too.

How the brain organizes information and processes information can make all the difference in the world - it can simplify a complex problem into a simpler one

**Yes, it does and that's useful for training fighting habits. My point is that these concepts aren't ingrained in our body (our motor system); instead, by practicing the same movement patterns repeatedly (and the concepts give beginners some idea of what movement patterns to do), these movement patterns become habitual. For example, the concept may be "charge forward when the hands are free" -- this gives beginners some general guidance on what to do in certain situations. Acting on that, they will begin to develop it into a habit of action so that anytime they lose contact with their hands, they habitually charge forward.

i.e. 4 or 6 gate theory - occupying the line, facing the ball, etc, something critical for combat, which leaves the fighter with little time to process information. And this is the reasoning for every component in the system – to shorten reaction time.

**Yes, see above.

The proof in conceptual learning is the ability of the learner to solve new problems; so you don't need to train the student how to receive each and every kind of kick or punch, rather you train him how to deal with various kinds of energy by using the line and the other concepts in the system; this allows the student to apply concepts to a wide variety of problems within the scope of the theory and solve them. Much like math, you may never have seen a particular equation before but by using math you can solve the problem; this is critical since, like math, no fighter as time to train a specific reaction to every single kind of attack; he must be able to transcend the specific and work in the general and do it quickly, thus simplifying the problem is mandatory and also quite possible.

**Yes, this is what I'm saying -- concepts are general "chunkings" that give beginners a guide to begin developing good fighting habits. Those habits are both physical and mental (tactical). As one develops greater skill (and develops those better fighting habits through experience), they lose the need to rely on those concepts. And, in fact, they will recognize when they can be violated to advantage (in some situations), etc. Experience replaces concept.

[old jong]

Habits: The result of training a specific move against a specific attack ex: Biu sau vs jab.

Trained principle or concept: the hability to respond with various moves depending on the practitioner present tactical position,angle,etc to a variety of attacks sharing a common direction.

A frog can be trained for habits but many so called Wing Chun people don't understand principles.

[t_niehoff]

No, old jong, you just don't get it. Keeping your elbows "in" (elbow down power) or "moving to the blind side", for example, are two examples of a good fighting habits, not "specific moves against a specific attacks" -- that are taught by givng the trainee a general idea that helps the beginner develop that habit of movement. A part of any martial art is using the body in a certain specific way. We make that "certain specific way" habitual by repetition. Beginners are given "concepts" -- or some general ideas to follow in how they *behave* -- so that they can habitualize those movement patterns. It's not the concepts that are important (because the ideas in themselves won't save your @ss); it is our fighting skills that are important. Good fighting habits are part of fighting skills.

FWIW, habits are unconscious repetitive behaviors (things we do without thinking about them). In fighting, we can't consciously attend every little detail. Most of them need to be dealt with on an unconscious level. And they are because they're habits. This frees our mind to focus on other things, like info gathering, tactics, etc.

[Waxwood rod]

"Thats cool,, I see you dig the “Sex Pistol”… when I was a young fellow I use to play in a band called “Son of Sam”,, it was “Punk Rock” of course… I use to hang out with “Wally” & “Big John” from the “The Exploited”… My band also open up for “GBH”,, “Angelic Upstarts”,, "Discharge" and the “Clash”,, Boy those was the good old days… I was out my mind then,, you talk about your Marsh Pits,, ( “Slam Dancing”),, man I’m blessed to be alive…

Ali Hamad Rahim. "

That's kind of funny Ali, I have a tape of you guys from like the mid to late eighties. I have a buddy from Detroit and we like to exchange local tapes from each of our areas. He also showed me a video once of you guys that he taped off of public access. Pretty scary looking. The tape I have is "F*** it to Death". I bet you have some pretty crazy stories as I know the old Detroit punk scene was nuts. Take care

[Kevin Bell]

Im strappin my six string on my back and comin over for a "jam" clear some space im comin into land....

[old jong]

An habit can't be changed even if your life depends on it but a well trained and understood concept or principle can allow for instant adaptation when the need is there.It is the main difference between training a circus animal to blow some horns and teaching musical improvisation.
BTW,I think we should not confuse the basics that are usually taught at the first Wing Chun lessons with the principles of the art who come later with countless hours of serious practice.

[t_niehoff]

old jong, your body can't perform a principle or concept -- it can only perform an action that you may interpret as being demonstrative of some "principle" (so we never see the principle only examples of it in action). Typically what we mean when we say "our actions are according to principle" is that our actions are guided or driven by some preconceived plan or idea. Nonrandom actions, that is actions that have purpose (or intent) behind them, are called behaviors. So what principles do is provide beginners a means to guide or drive their actions until that sort of behavior is inculcated. For example, the "principle" of "treating others as you would like to be treated" is a good way to inculcate polite behavior or consideration. That "principle" permits adaptation in how it is implemented (specific actions). When inculcated to the point it is unconscious (so we don't need to think about it), it becomes a habit; someone with good manners repeats certain behaviors until they become a habit (they don't need to think about them). In WCK the principles inculcate certain behaviors that in turn become particular good fighting habits. Just as the "principle" of treating others as we would like to be treated is general and allows us to deal with a great many situations, so are our principles.

When you fight, your "bong does not remain" or "all your points point to the center" because by following those principles, you have instilled those habits (of action). Those habits don't make you a robot.

[old jong]

Terence-
I do interpret doing Wing Chun as acting accordingly to its principles but,its principles (IMHO) go further than ingraining some conditioned reflexes or habits.They can allow us to react differently to similar things according to suttle changes.

I think you know that as well.

Otherwise we would not be better than those monkeys who learn to press a certain button for peanuts.

[Ali Hamad Rahim]

The principles of “Wing Chun” always works together with the system,, as a whole or as one entity… Just as the many shape that are in a Kaleidoscope... no matter how many times you turn the scope,, each shape accommodates the others into one center point… If the shapes do not always accommodate the others there will be no center,, If the center is not there,, kayos presumes!!!

Ali Hamad Rahim.

detroitwingchun.com (http://detroitwingchun.com)

[Ali Hamad Rahim]

Originally posted by Waxwood rod
"Thats cool,, I see you dig the “Sex Pistol”… when I was a young fellow I use to play in a band called “Son of Sam”,, it was “Punk Rock” of course… I use to hang out with “Wally” & “Big John” from the “The Exploited”… My band also open up for “GBH”,, “Angelic Upstarts”,, "Discharge" and the “Clash”,, Boy those was the good old days… I was out my mind then,, you talk about your Marsh Pits,, ( “Slam Dancing”),, man I’m blessed to be alive…

Ali Hamad Rahim. "

That's kind of funny Ali, I have a tape of you guys from like the mid to late eighties. I have a buddy from Detroit and we like to exchange local tapes from each of our areas. He also showed me a video once of you guys that he taped off of public access. Pretty scary looking. The tape I have is "F*** it to Death". I bet you have some pretty crazy stories as I know the old Detroit punk scene was nuts. Take care

Yeah!! That was a “Wave Form Production” cable show... We open up for "Joe Sh*t head from D.O.A.",, that’s when they had that hit cover by Zed Zeppelin "Communication Break Down"... That was fun back in 1982...

Ali Hamad Rahim.

detroitwingchun.com (http://detroitwingchun.com)

[KPM]

Originally posted by old jong
Terence-
I do interpret doing Wing Chun as acting accordingly to its principles but,its principles (IMHO) go further than ingraining some conditioned reflexes or habits.They can allow us to react differently to similar things according to suttle changes.

I think you know that as well.

Otherwise we would not be better than those monkeys who learn to press a certain button for peanuts.


---Maybe I am intruding on a conversation where I don't belong.....but I think you are both right! :-) Terence is talking about using "principles" to the point that a "principle-based" correct response is hard-wired.....has become a "habit." Michel is talking about using "priniciples" on a more conscious level so that a "principle-based" correct adaptation to a given situation is available. BOTH things are necessary. You want the ability to react appropriately in an instant without thinking.....hardwired "habit." And you also want the ability to adapt appropriately depending upon how the situation develops....thought based "analysis." The principles of WCK should lead you to both! The first is a result of hard training, the second is a result of hard study. Just my 2 cents.

Keith

[old jong]

Originally posted by KPM
---Maybe I am intruding on a conversation where I don't belong.....but I think you are both right! :-) Terence is talking about using "principles" to the point that a "principle-based" correct response is hard-wired.....has become a "habit." Michel is talking about using "priniciples" on a more conscious level so that a "principle-based" correct adaptation to a given situation is available. BOTH things are necessary. You want the ability to react appropriately in an instant without thinking.....hardwired "habit." And you also want the ability to adapt appropriately depending upon how the situation develops....thought based "analysis." The principles of WCK should lead you to both! The first is a result of hard training, the second is a result of hard study. Just my 2 cents.

Keith

Hey! You could be a lawyer too!...You are right! ;) :D