The crappy state of Kung fu

[Mr. Horse]

This is not an attack on any one style. It is an attack on all styles. Actually, it is an attack on kung fu in general.

What are we doing? What are we talking about? Kung fu is full of such bull, that I am about to blow my top.

I read posts and I read read books and articles in magazines. Kung fu has claimed a lot of things, talked a lot of crap, and made a lot of excuses.

I have read many things and listened to masters speak of this great power: an almost magical power of kung fu. If I do this or touch that or hit this point, I could kill or cripple you. However, I have not seen this technique used in a ring or in actual combat. I have seen kung fu fighters beat their opponent,yes, but not to the point of making them special or showing some mystical technique or concept.

I often read or hear kung fu fighters make excuse after the fight: the reasons why they lost. They were talking about what they COULD have done. Is that all we are good for? (talking before and after a fight) I haven't even seen some rouge kung fu master beating up or crippling guy to prove his or her style.

I have seen demos look very good. It does seem like the student is attacking the master with intent. However, this student has been programed. What I mean by "programed" is that subconciously, the student would not truely attack his master with really intent, but in his concious mind he thinks he is.

There are stories about past masters doing this and breaking that or whatever. Unfortunately, most of this occurences happened at least 60 or years ago and/or earlier.

I have spoken with a few older masters (some over 60 years old) from Hong Kong, Taiwan, and China, and they all basically say the same thing. They say that a lot of the "master" in the west are not really master. Many of them were junior or senior students and left Hong Kong or Taiwan and claimed they were masters. They say "I knew such and such when he left Hong Kong. I was friends with his teacher. He wasn't a master." or "How can there be more than one Grand Master to a style?"

I read some posts here roughly stating that kung fu should look like kick boxing in real fighting. I disagree. A fighter who hasn't train in his style enough or doesn't have faith in his style will fight like a kick boxer (this does not include Chinese kick boxing). This doesn't mean you have to get in super low stands or anything, but you should use what you have learned.

Other systems (BJJ and MMA) make fun of us (kung fu artist). ( They have ever right to do it. They have been putting up and we have been shutting up. Actually, we weren't shutting up. We were making excuses.

This seems like a rant, and I guess it is, but I feel what I wrote is true. I really couldn't articulate what I wanted very well, but I think you understand what I mean.

I know many people will say i am wrong, mistaken or plain stupid. However, i want you to prove me wrong. I want to see some Kung fu artist go out there and and rock the BJJ and MMA world, and not just sit back and talk about how they can.

Sorry for the bad grammar and spelling.

[PangQuan]

I feel similar to you, I think the only difference is the faith. I know my sifu, I have seen his skill. I have not seen him kill, or maim, or even injure anyone to a bad degree. I have seen him chip bones with what seemed to be a tap of the foot. But at the same time he is a true buddhist. If you understand buddhism then you know what that implies. He cares about his students, he cares about his style, and he cares about the lineage that he will one day have to pass on. If I had started studying kung fu at an earlier age, I definately would compete, problem is I was not able to do so in my youth. But I can assure you kung fu will have its moment in the spotlight. Be patient. Someone with the skill will eventually step up. Think about this, how long have these national and international competitions been around. answer = not very long. How long has kung fu been around. answer = very long. It will step when the time is right. I know, I know, "when will the time be right, if not now?". Well frankly I dont have the answer to that. But what i do know is this, it is not happening at this moment, so we will have to wait. Perhaps one day I will have a son, as I would like to. And when that day comes, it will be the begining of a champion (or so I hope, given that it is his wish) I know lots of people feel this way, so if not my son, then perhaps your son, or someone else's. I feel your frustration, and I feel where you are coming from. If you truly enjoy your kung fu, then keep training, have faith, and grow in skill. I guess my whole point is this; dont give up on kung fu so quickly, it has not given up on you.

[Fu-Pow]

I guess my whole point is this; dont give up on kung fu so quickly, it has not given up on you.

Nice. ;)

Yeah, that are a lot of hocus pocus B.S.ers out there...not just in kung fu but in the martial arts in general. They all play the same tune...."our styles the best" ,"I have the true transmission" "I can **** chi blasts" "deadly this, deadly that"....blah, blah, f-in, blah.....they usually hide behind their lineage because they haven't done anything to prove themselves competent.

Just remember Lao Tzu's poignant words:

"Those who know do not speak, those who speak do not know."

or as my Sifu likes to say "Too much talking."

:D

[Shaolinlueb]

interesting topic...... :o ;)

[Dim Wit Mak]

There are probably over 1000 styles of Kung Fu. I don't criticize anyone's style, but if someone criticizes their own style that they are training in, I listen. I personally like many kung fu styles, but came to realize there were problems, especially when dealing with grapplers. My own approach was to study kenpo and jujitsu in order to deal with grappler types. Bruce Lee referred to the "classical mess" acknowledging that some techniques might not be real world effective. If a person feels that certain techniques he trains in are effective in combat then the baby should not be thrown out with the bath water. Use your brain, keep the good and cull the rest. To disregard the wisdom of some of the brilliant kung fu minds, both past and present, is a mistake.

[Mr Punch]

Originally posted by PangQuan
I feel your frustration, and I feel where you are coming from. If you truly enjoy your kung fu, then keep training, have faith, and grow in skill. I guess my whole point is this; dont give up on kung fu so quickly, it has not given up on you. Pang Quan has just about summed it up. That or just give up and shut up! :D :p

[Mr Punch]

And BTW, are you going to find any proud Kung fu masters in China saying, "Oh yeah, well all the real masters went to the States...!"? Don't think so. Of course they're going to want to put down other teachers; that's the back-biting nature of Chinese factionism (and no, I'm not saying that it's necessarily all that different in otehr cultures), which is part of the 'all-talk' problem that you don't like.

[WanderingMonk]

i am swtiching to bjj where their gods are much more powerful. they'll protect me from all of the name calling.

on second thought, I'll just practice harder.

real master did simple training drills over and over and over and over again until they want to puke and did some more.

Yang Tai-Chi's greatest fighter Yang Lu Chan put his son through hell during training such that his son ran away from home to stop training at age 9 (or something like that).

LKFMDC's teacher, Chan Tai Shan, hated his training so much that he tried to kill his own teacher.

there are a lot horror training stories. but, people who gone through these training become real fighters.

One must consider what kind of due these master put in before getting the desire results.

if one didn't pay his due, it is hard to complain.

bjj and muay thai guys paid their due every time they go to train. they spar, spar and spar some more. they have broken wrist, crack ribs, etc, etc. they paid their due, so they can fight and brag.

if one spar 3/4 max effort every day using his/her own skill set, he'll know what works for him. then, he need to test his skills out against other stylists to accustom to different fighting strategies. then, he have to find better guys to fight to find more weakness.

these are the dues that every one must pay. there is no such thing as a free lunch.

yes, this is a thread complaining about poor state of kung-fu. but in the end, it doesn't matter what other people do, it is what you do. how hard other people train or not train won't make you better or worse. you are the only one who can make yourself better or worse.

[Mr. Horse]

Actually, they did say all of the KF master that left Hong Kong and Taiwan were not masters. They said some of them weren't. Some of these "master" were famous.


Give up or shut up? I guess you are joking, but if I just acquiese and listen to these masters dogmatically, wouldn't I be just perpetuating the problem?

Kung fu has been around for a very long time. It should have an advantage over the newer arts, because it had a longer time to fine tune its concepts. However, it is not the case.

I am not saying that kung fu is bad, but the state it is in now is not good.

Matt
I am in Aichi-ken. What are you doing out there?

[Mr Punch]

Yeah, I was kind of joking...!

Of course I believe in budo and bujutsu training for a number of reasons: fitness, discipline, self defence, fun, challenge, and dare I say it the spirituality of that challenge: that's why I've continued for so long through thick and thin of doubt in myself and in my arts (which with mostly aiki and kungfu based arts is par for the course! :D ). So you either accept that there are always problems with what you train and continue anyway, or you quit. No art is perfect, but then neither are we. Of course if the problems become too big in your particular school you should quit, and then it's up to you whether you criticise it or not.

The MMA criticism to me is neither here nor there. I don't really care what happens in MMA contests. One of my friends and teachers is a pro-fighter and that's just it: he's a pro. I'm not. He does nothing but teach and fight. I have a very full-time job. There's no way I'm gonna prove my kungfu to anyone (though there are times when I use it on the mat which surprises everyone! ;) ).

And what I said was give up AND shut up, which was a cheap shot at the fact that this crisis in confidence has been going on as long as there have been MA, esp in the age of mass media! ;)

As to what I'm doing, I teach English and train wing chun kungfu, and when I have time shooto and an aikijutsu/hsing-i/taichi mix. Plus the occasional foray into aikido (which I've been doing for a long time) and kendo. What about you?

Next time you're coming to Tokyo, give me a pm and we could hook up and cross hands...?

[count]

Dear Mr. Horse's Ass,

Would you ladies stop *****in'. Get a kleenex and blow for crying out loud. Of course you talked to these masters and they told you "they" were lower level in the states. You better believe it. Why don't you spend the money and go kow tow to these masters until they teach you a decent horse stance. My God, kung fu doesn't suck, styles don't suck, you suck for posting this dribble.

Thank you and peace,
:p :rolleyes: :o

[Wharg0ul]

Spar. Spar. Spar. Spar some more.

I say this because it sounds like you need to work on application. There's a lot of BJJ fighters in this town, and they all brag that "BJJ fighters are the best in teh world." yet every time I spar one, they end up on their ass before they realise what happened.

And how do they fight multiple opponants?

Realise....Kung-Fu is not meant to be used on one opponant. It is designed to take down multiple assailants as quickly and efficiently as possible. As such, it's not a good ring sport. How many Kung-Fu fighters would be welcome to compete if all their opponants had to be carried out of the ring? One good white crane flick to the neck can kill an attacker.

The problem is that we don't live in war-torn ancient China. We don't get attacked by groups of people trying to kill us, so we have no opportunity to see the awesome power of our art the way it was meant to be used.

Kung-Fu is an art for defence. It's not a sport. That's why we have boxing and wrestling and the like....they were developed for entertainment.

As far as mystical claims....well, I can't tell you, because I havn't spent 20 years of my life poking my finger at a bell, etc. But practically speaking, good knowledge of pressure points and internal strikes can produce some pretty "magical" results.

Hope you keep training, but if not, good luck.

[joedoe]

Originally posted by Wharg0ul
Spar. Spar. Spar. Spar some more.

I say this because it sounds like you need to work on application. There's a lot of BJJ fighters in this town, and they all brag that "BJJ fighters are the best in teh world." yet every time I spar one, they end up on their ass before they realise what happened.

...

Yeah, but they actually want to be on their arse - that is where BJJ is strongest :D

[MantisFistMonk]

Nice thread!

I like to see some threads like this once in awhile, I believe it keeps everyone humble.

I basically believe in two things.

One is that it's not the style, it's the student.

And two is, generally speaking, I feel that someone worth training with will tell you the best way to knock someone out is not by doing a Little Tiny Flaming Dragon Waking Up Under a Chinese Broken Bridge On a Screaming Five Fisted Eagle... Claw... Harmony... Essential, but rather to, punch them in the jaw really hard.

I've personally been trained to preserve the style, but be realistic when it comes to fist fights.

[FatherDog]

Originally posted by Wharg0ul
[B]Spar. Spar. Spar. Spar some more.

You were off to a great start...



And how do they fight multiple opponants?

Realise....Kung-Fu is not meant to be used on one opponant. It is designed to take down multiple assailants as quickly and efficiently as possible. As such, it's not a good ring sport. How many Kung-Fu fighters would be welcome to compete if all their opponants had to be carried out of the ring? One good white crane flick to the neck can kill an attacker.


......and then you spouted this stupidity.



The problem is that we don't live in war-torn ancient China. We don't get attacked by groups of people trying to kill us, so we have no opportunity to see the awesome power of our art the way it was meant to be used.


"You may kick my ass on your own, just trying to knock me out or submit me, but if you get five of your friends and try to /kill/ me, I'll kick some serious ass!"

Please.



Kung-Fu is an art for defence. It's not a sport. That's why we have boxing and wrestling and the like....they were developed for entertainment.

Actually, boxing was developed specifically for self-defense, and wrestling was developed to keep soldiers in fighting condition with combat reflexes during peacetime.

[MantisFistMonk]

I almost forgot to mention.

I hear what you are saying and I also agree for the most part.

[Wharg0ul]

Originally posted by FatherDog


"You may kick my ass on your own, just trying to knock me out or submit me, but if you get five of your friends and try to /kill/ me, I'll kick some serious ass!"

Please.


How ignorant of you. I say ignorant because you obviously have no idea that I spar multiple opponants DAILY. You also have no idea how often I win or lose fights, much less how I do in one on one sparring.

The whole point is that learning forms and technique is fine. But if you don't actually USE those skills, what good does it do?

Mu Kung-Fu is more than "flowery fists and embroidered kicks". It works. I KNOW it works, because I use it on a regular basis against fighters from my own system and others.

I have to agree with what someone said above me. It's not the system, it's the student. It's all in how you use what you've learned, and weather you do at all.

[Wharg0ul]

Originally posted by joedoe
Yeah, but they actually want to be on their arse - that is where BJJ is strongest :D

aye....as long as you don't go down there with them ;) Personally I use hit-and-fade tactics against them...I hate grappling }:P

[Mr. Horse]

I am not saying BJJ or MMA is better. However, they are winning in the ring. People say that the rules are not geared towards kung fu. That is true, but when the UFC started, there were only a few rules. The few KF fighters that entered were distroyed. Of course, we say that they were not good examples of KF fighters.

I like KF. I liked it since I was a child, but it doesn't look good now.

[Akhilleus]

Wow…I just want to say that this is my favorite thread…nay, my favorite THING ever! Mr. Horse got us off to an incredible start (I’ve heard talk of a Nobell Prize)…all that remains to be seen is which phrase from this thread will I take as my new sig…since there are so many gems to choose from…


What are we doing?

Wasting time.


Kung fu is full of such bull, that I am about to blow my top.

Sir, may I be the first to congratulate you on holding out for as long as you have.


I have read many things and listened to masters speak of this great power: an almost magical power of kung fu.

Aahhh…those were the days…sigh…when the animals could talk and hermits would "teach pigs to dance, and horses to fly.” The days of Aslan...


There are stories about past masters doing this and breaking that

Dude: warn me next time you are going to post something like this so I can empty my bladder ahead of time…


i am swtiching to bjj…on second thought, I'll just practice harder.

Sounds good…I trust that your practice includes takedown defenses? Hint: ever considered doing both? Oh I'm bad, I'm terrible...


There's a lot of BJJ fighters in this town, and they all brag that "BJJ fighters are the best in teh world." yet every time I spar one, they end up on their ass before they realise what happened.

Thank you for redeeming kung fu and regaining some respect for us kung fu guys….can you please videotape the next time you spar one of these bjj guys? It sounds like it happens pretty frequently, do you think you could have a clip up by, oh say, saturday? Thanks...There are plenty of clips of BJJ guys submitting tcma guys…let’s even the score!


The problem is that we don't live in war-torn ancient China. We don't get attacked by groups of people trying to kill us,

I agree…that is a huge PROBLEM


so we have no opportunity to see the awesome power of our art the way it was meant to be used.

Right. But we know it’s there…because Sensei told us…


"flowery fists and embroidered kicks"

I too enjoy reading Master Wong Kiew Kit's books in my spare time...I also enjoy listening to music, such as CCR’s “Who’ll stop the Rain”

[Becca]

Originally posted by Mr. Horse
... Kung fu has been around for a very long time. It should have an advantage over the newer arts, because it had a longer time to fine tune its concepts. However, it is not the case...

Why? The style is like a book. If you read the book and misquote it, does that make the author of the book an eyot? I think not...:rolleyes:

Blaming all kung fu for the failing on a few arts is 'tarded. That's like saying all blond/blue-eyed germans are bad 'cause Hitler favored them over all others for his Arian Nation.

Shut up and go train. You want to see kung fu on the top of the competeing world? Go compete. BTW, there have been many TCMA fighters over the years who have become very well known. But I guess that don't cound since it was pre-MMA craze.:rolleyes:

[MasterKiller]

Kung-Fu is an art for defence. It's not a sport. That's why we have boxing and wrestling and the like....they were developed for entertainment.

Yeah...So I guess wrestling being the oldest documented form of Kung Fu kinda shoots a hole in your argument, huh?

[SPJ]

Traditional Thai MA includes MT. Traditional MT used in the ring evolved into sports MT.

JJ divided or evolved into Aikido, Judo and BJJ.

JJ was influenced or "came" from CMA.

Let us see. MMA=MT+BJJ. CMA-->JJ-->BJJ-> sports BJJ.

The moon came from the earth. The earth came from the Sun.

Brother looked at the moon at nite and said it is the brightest and biggest star in the sky. The moon was so happy and said very much so, I am bigger and brighter than the earth and the Sun.

Knowing the moon was only reflecting the ray from the sun, Moi said I wondered where the moon is during the daytime. The overcast of the earth may cover the moon. Oh it is called eclipse. The overcast of the moon covers the whole earth???

Brother, moi, the earth and the Sun were all confused.


:confused: :D :cool:

[Hitman]

This is the question I asked Sifu Duncan Leung:


Is it possible for anyone to tell me why most wing chun practitioners cannot apply what they have learnt in touranments or in a fight? Some of them are instructors. I am refering to their abillity of applying what they have learnt in the class and not about their fighting skills in winning trophies. I know that I cannot apply my wing chun skill in a fight, because I was not taught properly. However, after seeing some of the other wing chun practitioners from different organisations fighting in touranments and performing in their classes. I have convinced that they too have not being taught properly or were too lazy.
Wing Chun is a very good fighting art as demonstrated by the practitioners in 1950s, but today many organistions are teaching a very dilluted version Wing Chun compared to what was being taught in the 1950s. Why is this?
Why is the traditional version of Wing Chun not being taught apart from fearing losing customers due to hard and boring training sessions.
I thought the quality of good teachers are based on the quality of their students. If the standard of the students are poor, than the teachers are bad, even if they are undefeated world champions. This is because they cannot pass on their knowledge to their students. It is their teaching methods that I am questioning?
Why has the tested method being change so much that we are now seeing poor Wing Chun students being produced all the time? If this is allow to continue than the students will always remain poor students forever.


Sifu Duncan Leung's reply (a very good wing chun teacher who can use wing chun in fighting)


The situation you are describing is the difference between academic theory and practical application. The only way to learn application is to use it in real-life situations repeatedly and under varying conditions (i.e., when you do not know what your opponent is going to throw at you) until reactions become automatic, and you instinctively know how to adapt to different opponents and strategies. In the old days, we actually fought -- in the streets, with rival martial arts studios. That is, today, not practical. But, the principle can be adapted.

I can expalin to you how to ride a bicycle -- turn the handlebars left, turn them right, etc. But, until you climb on the bike and fall down a few times, and get the 'feel' of it for yourself, you do not know how to ride a bike.

Let me reiterate the four fundamental elements that are necessary to the successful learning of Wing Chun, as specified by my Sifu, Yip Man:

1. Desire: an intense desire to acquire the art.

2. Guts and stamina: the willingness and ability to take the pain and punishment that accompany the learning process.

3. Time: I practiced 6 hours a day, 7 days a week for over four years to learn applied Wing Chun.

4. Money: most teachers need to make a living.

Interestingly, innate talent is not really essential, but the above characteristics are. Without these, it is impossible to become really good. And, in today's world, very few students possess these four qualities.



Hitman

[Wharg0ul]

it's interesting to see that some people here don't bother reading or understanding posts before they reply. Makes you wonder if they really listen to their instructor, or if they are too busy thinking about how cool they are.

And MK, were you there when Kung-Fu was developed? From what I've read of anthropologist reports, early man at first studied the actions of other predators in an attempt to hunt more effectively. Eventually of course conflict arose between other human hunters, thus the need for self-defence. I can't picture a cave-dwelling man wrestling a deer or whatever to the ground and waiting for it to tap ;)

However, it has been noted that around 1520 bc, that wrestling existed in ancient China, as derived from a type or ritualised event where participants wore animal horns on their heads, and would attempt to throw each other to the ground.

Akhilleus...warn me next time when your about to post. I felt my IQ drop just from reading that non-sense.

[Wharg0ul]

Originally posted by Hitman

The situation you are describing is the difference between academic theory and practical application. The only way to learn application is to use it in real-life situations repeatedly and under varying conditions (i.e., when you do not know what your opponent is going to throw at you) until reactions become automatic, and you instinctively know how to adapt to different opponents and strategies. In the old days, we actually fought -- in the streets, with rival martial arts studios. That is, today, not practical. But, the principle can be adapted.

I can expalin to you how to ride a bicycle -- turn the handlebars left, turn them right, etc. But, until you climb on the bike and fall down a few times, and get the 'feel' of it for yourself, you do not know how to ride a bike.

Let me reiterate the four fundamental elements that are necessary to the successful learning of Wing Chun, as specified by my Sifu, Yip Man:

1. Desire: an intense desire to acquire the art.

2. Guts and stamina: the willingness and ability to take the pain and punishment that accompany the learning process.

3. Time: I practiced 6 hours a day, 7 days a week for over four years to learn applied Wing Chun.

4. Money: most teachers need to make a living.

Hitman

EXACTLY! :D

[MasterKiller]

Originally posted by Wharg0ul
And MK, were you there when Kung-Fu was developed? From what I've read of anthropologist reports, early man at first studied the actions of other predators in an attempt to hunt more effectively. Eventually of course conflict arose between other human hunters, thus the need for self-defence. I can't picture a cave-dwelling man wrestling a deer or whatever to the ground and waiting for it to tap ;) Do you practice killing deers in class by kicking them in the knee cap and gouging their eyes out?


However, it has been noted that around 1520 bc, that wrestling existed in ancient China, as derived from a type or ritualised event where participants wore animal horns on their heads, and would attempt to throw each other to the ground. Celts wrestled. Greeks wrestled. Chinese wrestled. Mongolians wrestled. Native Americans wrestled. Africans wrestled...

[Pork Chop]

fight more
train to fight
fight people you don't like
fight people you don't know
and if there are any doubts
just fight

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Mr. Horse
I am not saying BJJ or MMA is better. However, they are winning in the ring. People say that the rules are not geared towards kung fu. That is true, but when the UFC started, there were only a few rules. The few KF fighters that entered were distroyed. Of course, we say that they were not good examples of KF fighters.

I like KF. I liked it since I was a child, but it doesn't look good now.

principles - not techniques. If you can adapt your principles to the mma ruleset - which shouldn't be that hard - then there should be no problem. Most of your techniqes won't need to be adapted anyway.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Wharg0ul
Spar. Spar. Spar. Spar some more.

I say this because it sounds like you need to work on application. There's a lot of BJJ fighters in this town, and they all brag that "BJJ fighters are the best in teh world." yet every time I spar one, they end up on their ass before they realise what happened.

And how do they fight multiple opponants?

Realise....Kung-Fu is not meant to be used on one opponant. It is designed to take down multiple assailants as quickly and efficiently as possible. As such, it's not a good ring sport. How many Kung-Fu fighters would be welcome to compete if all their opponants had to be carried out of the ring? One good white crane flick to the neck can kill an attacker.

The problem is that we don't live in war-torn ancient China. We don't get attacked by groups of people trying to kill us, so we have no opportunity to see the awesome power of our art the way it was meant to be used.

Kung-Fu is an art for defence. It's not a sport. That's why we have boxing and wrestling and the like....they were developed for entertainment.

As far as mystical claims....well, I can't tell you, because I havn't spent 20 years of my life poking my finger at a bell, etc. But practically speaking, good knowledge of pressure points and internal strikes can produce some pretty "magical" results.

Hope you keep training, but if not, good luck.


I thought people stopped posting BS like this years ago...

[Water Dragon]

The idiocy on this thread is astounding.

H2O (CMA/MMA guy) Dragon

[Wharg0ul]

Originally posted by MasterKiller
Do you practice killing deers in class by kicking them in the knee cap and gouging their eyes out?

Celts wrestled. Greeks wrestled. Chinese wrestled. Mongolians wrestled. Native Americans wrestled. Africans wrestled...

1st answer: nope. if I want to kill a deer, I use a gun or a bow. if I want entertainment, I could choose to watch boxing or wrestling.

Wrestling puts you on the ground, entangled with one opponant. Nice way for primative man to get gutted by another predator while trying to wrestle his dinner ;) Nice way for modern man to get his head kicked in by his opponants friends.

Wrestling is for entertainment.

And Sevenstar, you mean logic and common sense stopped being posted here years ago? Thanx for the info...that explains a bit.

[MasterKiller]

Originally posted by SevenStar
I thought people stopped posting BS like this years ago... Whargh0ul is a Shaolin-Do guy. He seems to be parroting the same nonsense themeecer used to say...Remember him saying he'd bite someone's juggular out if they double-legged him? Anyway, at least we see that SD teaching is consistent even if it's not correct.

[Wharg0ul]

Originally posted by MasterKiller
Whargh0ul is a Shaolin-Do guy. He seems to be parroting the same nonsense themeecer used to say...Remember him saying he'd bite someone's juggular out if they double-legged him? Anyway, at least we see that SD teaching is consistent even if it's not correct.

MK theory 101: is all else fails, resort to personal attacks. Don't forget to slanderise their system while you're at it. (not saying I'm any better, mind you)

hehehe. it's been fun..off to work. Can't wait to see what develops while I'm gone.

[David Jamieson]

My Kungfu is fine. It keeps me fit, it keeps me balanced and with playing with others, it keeps my combative skills in a state of ok readiness.

So, my Kungfu is fine.

If your's sucks, I would say it's not the product so much as not understanding the owners manual. :p

[Water Dragon]

Originally posted by Wharg0ul

Wrestling puts you on the ground, entangled with one opponant. Nice way for primative man to get gutted by another predator while trying to wrestle his dinner ;) Nice way for modern man to get his head kicked in by his opponants friends.

Wrestling is for entertainment.


There's no ground work in Chinese wrestling genius.

[red5angel]

I got out of kungfu because of the charlatanism and political BS. I just got sick of it. What made me the most sick was watching these kungfu get togethers where different schools or arts would get together and they would all be having fun and exchanging ideas, then it would all get blown away by some asses comments - usually the instructors - about how those guys are a joke, or they really don't have the real deal. How much more lame and petty can one get? not too mention all the ridiculous sayings about having no ego, in a world filled with it.

If it's the chinese factionism, then the chinese have ruined kungfu, probably for good.

[Fu-Pow]

Originally posted by Wharg0ul
MK theory 101: is all else fails, resort to personal attacks. Don't forget to slanderise their system while you're at it. (not saying I'm any better, mind you)

hehehe. it's been fun..off to work. Can't wait to see what develops while I'm gone.


You do Shaolin-Do?

Shaolin-Do has too many Shapes. They get confused with so many Shapes and so they do all the Shapes with the same Jin....ie Hard Jin. If the Jin is incorrect then the application has 1/2 the effectiveness as with the correct Jin.

:confused:

[SaekSan]

Who did you study CMA with up there? Just curious because there was a guy that came down to our place a few years back from Minn.

[No_Know]

It seems different when I'm older too. I wonder if...But I think if I followed mainstream activity growing-up I would have reached a state of inflexibility an great self doubt much earlier.

If Kung-Fu has been around for a long time~ that is not so much an advantage as it it a vulnerabulity. The phsyical can be mimicked, though the effect might differ. Anything that came after or during, might take from the long standing. Kung-Fu seems concept based. That's why the poetry. To convey ideas. You can take an idea, develop it explore it. A teacher gives you the essence. As you grow as a person you get more out of your Kung-Fu understanding. A lot of people are stuck at first thought. Uh, Fighting winning in others (who are just bored and pointless directionless-ish) eyes--and if you think they like you, they don't necessarily, you are just blindedly entertaining for the monent (some might think).

Selling seems prent in much. It's a community. If you can fight there's a lot for you out there. If you can kill. Prison time and regret or guilt. If you lost heart Kung-Fu for eons just shake the head ans sigh. Your loss. If you like and get from benefit. If you want proof whatever. God doesn't necessarily make tape recordings nor video interviews. So (needle and thread), if you have any invisible don't come to the door diety in your practiced religion take a note, you don't have to see it to be real. And the long-standing do not have to prove themselves--two notes.~

Part of Kung-Fu is conditioning. Form is the body of the car. for whan it gets moving. But you can use the Heart and physical conditioningS to be to engine of frame and this includes stances that you think you don't use. the stances you don't use supposedly develop muscles and stuff and breathing and metabolism type of thing...unless you know evertything (which might include that you do not know everything~) there might be some thing(s) you donknow/won't know...who do you think you are to deserve to know everything or whatever you want to now. A start might be to know your place.

At work you don't get to know all your boss' business or why they do what they do. you work there and trust in greed that they will work toward profit which keeps you in money/benefits. You know Your job that's all until it's your place to know more. And then it's probablly related to your rising stature at work going into your higher position and thereby your job. But you don't in all instances get to know all the reasons. It's not always shadey.

At least some people do not get to know in at least some instances.

If I think your kung fu-ing is not top, I shouldrealize it is possiblly top for you for what you understand. I already looked at Kung-Fu. It's got what I was interested in for good living. We do what we like and what we're told. Perhaps, some-such.

People might not understand this so (needle-and-thread), very good...Everyone has hurt and broken ness. Vent for your health perhaps, but you are not required to share if the reality you percieve varies from the picture you painted.

You are not necessarilyrequired to tell people it's no good if you get~ disheartened.

I No_Know

I don't get given kill partners to practice. If you can kill another you know something of healing others. If you can heal another you know of hurting others. Trust. Think. Apply. Consider. Doing doesn't always happen without Try-ish.

Show some TTACDT. Be well.

I No_Know

[MasterKiller]

Originally posted by red5angel
I got out of kungfu because of the charlatanism and political BS. I just got sick of it. What made me the most sick was watching these kungfu get togethers where different schools or arts would get together and they would all be having fun and exchanging ideas, then it would all get blown away by some asses comments - usually the instructors - about how those guys are a joke, or they really don't have the real deal. How much more lame and petty can one get? not too mention all the ridiculous sayings about having no ego, in a world filled with it. Didn't you just tell a similar anectdote involving a capoeria instructor ruining a roda because of the same thing in your conversation with SaekSan? The problem is not necessarily a CMA one.

[PangQuan]

Originally posted by BMore Banga
fight more
train to fight
fight people you don't like
fight people you don't know
and if there are any doubts
just fight

this is correct, I was once told by someone (not telling who) that if you really want to learn how to fight, the best way to do that is to go and get into as many street fights as you can. Screw that weak competition, gloved, padded controled invironment. I mean its good practice, but it still has restrictions and a narrow view compared to actual real life fight for you life combat. Im not saying "go pick fights with some random people" But if you happen to see a situation where you could get into a fight, take it. That is, if you want to be a really good practicle fighter.

[SaekSan]

I think that so long as there's egocentrics present the problem will be there.

My brother is a college professor and he says that bs goes on all the time within depts. and even between institutions.

Why is it that some people feel the need to be recognized for their efforts while they also feel the need to discredit that of others?

Hmmm...

[Akhilleus]

Screw that weak competition, gloved, padded controled invironment. I mean its good practice, but it still has restrictions and a narrow view compared to actual real life fight for you life combat. Im not saying "go pick fights with some random people" But if you happen to see a situation where you could get into a fight, take it. That is, if you want to be a really good practicle fighter.

Yeah, or if you want to die...

Yeah screw that weak, controlled, competition with padded gloves...go out and pick fights with a guy who probably doesn't train...that will show how tough you are! And hope he doesn't have a knife or his friends don't jump in...oh wait that's right, I can use my kung fu to ward off mobs of torch wielding villagers...so, the more the merrier!

[Fu-Pow]

Originally posted by PangQuan
this is correct, I was once told by someone (not telling who) that if you really want to learn how to fight, the best way to do that is to go and get into as many street fights as you can. Screw that weak competition, gloved, padded controled invironment. I mean its good practice, but it still has restrictions and a narrow view compared to actual real life fight for you life combat. Im not saying "go pick fights with some random people" But if you happen to see a situation where you could get into a fight, take it. That is, if you want to be a really good practicle fighter.

Didn't I say that?

[Pork Chop]

Originally posted by PangQuan
this is correct, I was once told by someone (not telling who) that if you really want to learn how to fight, the best way to do that is to go and get into as many street fights as you can. Screw that weak competition, gloved, padded controled invironment.

I can't really tell if you're being sarcastic about my post or not, but I know a coach of one of those "styles" that's often called "kickboxing"; who's actually advised us (multiple times) to become involved in bar fights if we really wanted to see if our stuff worked.

[red5angel]

Who did you study CMA with up there? Just curious because there was a guy that came down to our place a few years back from Minn.

Who was it do you remember? I studied Wing Chun under Michael Mallory who learned from Carl Dechiara. Michael is a cool guy, alot of humility.
I also studied briefly under another gentleman, Jimmy Sok, who had a lot of athletic ability and taught wingchun from that perspective.
My 6 mos of Shaolin was under Paul Fendos, a pretty good guy as well.

It was the wingchun crap thet burned me out the most.


MK, yep, I didn't say I jioned capoeira because it doesn't have all that stuff. I said I got out of CMA because it is so prevalent you can't avoid it. I agree it's not necesarily a CMA one but it was certainly heavy enough to be a significant fcactor in my walking away from it. My personal goal now is to not get sucked into it in Capoeira. Our group is pretty good and since you do't currently have Capoeira schools on every block, there's not alot of competition. I also believe that the playfulness of capoeira wil help to hold most of that crap off. You're always going to get people who take themselves too seriously, thankfully my capoeira school does not.
To be fair there are probably a couple of schools in the cities that don't worry about that stuff. Michael certainly didn't bother with it in wingchun. the guys who teach Hsingyi and Bagua locally are pretty good too.

[Mutant]

Well WTF have YOU done for kung fu?:rolleyes:

[red5angel]

Well WTF have YOU done for kung fu?


What's the point you're trying to make Mr. Crankypants?

[SaekSan]

Red,

Can't remember the guys name. He studied something else, know of anyone that taught "Mei Hua Zhuang" up there?

[Merryprankster]

Well WTF have YOU done for kung fu?

He joined Capoeira. It's better for all of you CMA guys. Trust me :D

[red5angel]

not of hand man. We have a ton of kungfu schools most of them are tucked away somewhere hard to find.

[SaekSan]

Gotcha... this guy was one of those that had all these forms listed, some of the names were in Cantonese, some in Mandarin and some in English, he sent a letter with his student and when I questioned him he got all upset and never got back to me.

:rolleyes:

[red5angel]

lol, not sure who he is but it sounds like business as usual :D

[Mutant]

Originally posted by red5angel
What's the point you're trying to make Mr. Crankypants?

:eek: :D

I agree that CMA is not in a great place overall right now.

But what gets to me, and what my point is, is this:
People get frustrated that 'others' arent consistently making kung fu work well enough in MMA...and grow concerned because it gives kung fu in general a bad rep, which in turn makes them feel insecure about their own training and abilities. Don't blame kung fu in general or other people for not gaining enough notoriety to make you feel warm and fuzzy about what YOU'RE doing. Make a difference yourself. Make the art work for you. The style owes you nothing, you have to get what you can out of it and make it come alive. If your particular training program can't provide this, then go find some better kung fu training, if you want to expand this as your base style. There are plenty of valid principles and techniques in the CMA to build upon. People are always waiting for someone else to jump in the ring. Well this starts at the grassroots level... Why doesn't Mr. Horse or others who make a habit of complaining about this start competing in local MMA events? The best way to shut people up about the effectiveness of your kung fu is to go knock them around with it. And then if you know it personally works for you, you wouldnt care what they say or feel insecure in the first place. If enough people jumped in at the local level, there would be more experienced CMA players down the road to compete in more nationally visable events.

But most of the time you just want others to go vindicate 'kung fu' (a term that is so broad and varied to begin with that it means a million different things), so that you feel good about yourself and what you spent (or wasted?) the past years doing. Go out and do something with it before you complain and then debate it abstractly ad nauseum on the internet.

The way I see it, you either need to enjoy your training for what it is and leave it at that (there are a lot of benefits besides fighting after all), or go out and make it work for you in the ring and prove people wrong... or go study a more popularly accepted style which will either give you the training youre looking for, or enable you to live vicariously through others acomplishments without the insecurity and frustration of having someone rag on your kung fu.

[Fu-Pow]

Originally posted by MutantWarrior


The way I see it, you either need to enjoy your training for what it is and leave it at that (there are a lot of benefits besides fighting after all), or go out and make it work for you in the ring and prove people wrong... or go study a more popularly accepted style which will either give you the training youre looking for, or enable you to live vicariously through others acomplishments without the insecurity and frustration of having someone rag on your kung fu.

*HALLELUJUAH!! HALLELUJAH!! HALL-E-E-LUJAH!!!*

[Mutant]

Originally posted by Merryprankster
He joined Capoeira. It's better for all of you CMA guys. Trust me :D

Actually my original comment was directed at Mr Horse and others like that, not particulartly at Red5, i just happened to post right after him, but of course we all know this all revolves around him.... ;)

Good point though Prankster... poor capoeira bastads :D :D :D

[PangQuan]

Originally posted by Akhilleus
Yeah, or if you want to die...

Yeah screw that weak, controlled, competition with padded gloves...go out and pick fights with a guy who probably doesn't train...that will show how tough you are! And hope he doesn't have a knife or his friends don't jump in...oh wait that's right, I can use my kung fu to ward off mobs of torch wielding villagers...so, the more the merrier!

If you read carefully i never said to go pick a fight, i said to take the opportunity if one presents itself, nor did I advise to pick a fight with an untrained person. I dont know how much time you spent on the streets, but I have spent quite a bit, and I can assure you I have seen "untrained" people who would kick the snot out of alot of trained people. A fighter is a fighter man. Martial arts instruction is not needed. Ask any one with real experience and they will tell you a good street fighter will give you a better run for your money then alot of "trained" fighters. Its all about experience, and well frankly street fighters have more then most martial artists your going to meet.

[PangQuan]

Originally posted by Fu-Pow
Didn't I say that?

maybe. but thats not who told me.

[PangQuan]

Originally posted by BMore Banga
I can't really tell if you're being sarcastic about my post or not, but I know a coach of one of those "styles" that's often called "kickboxing"; who's actually advised us (multiple times) to become involved in bar fights if we really wanted to see if our stuff worked.

not sarcastic, this was real advice i recieved as well.

[Shaolinlueb]

Originally posted by MutantWarrior
:eek: :D

I agree that CMA is not in a great place overall right now.

But what gets to me, and what my point is, is this:
People get frustrated that 'others' arent consistently making kung fu work well enough in MMA...and grow concerned because it gives kung fu in general a bad rep, which in turn makes them feel insecure about their own training and abilities. Don't blame kung fu in general or other people for not gaining enough notoriety to make you feel warm and fuzzy about what YOU'RE doing. Make a difference yourself. Make the art work for you. The style owes you nothing, you have to get what you can out of it and make it come alive. If your particular training program can't provide this, then go find some better kung fu training, if you want to expand this as your base style. There are plenty of valid principles and techniques in the CMA to build upon. People are always waiting for someone else to jump in the ring. Well this starts at the grassroots level... Why doesn't Mr. Horse or others who make a habit of complaining about this start competing in local MMA events? The best way to shut people up about the effectiveness of your kung fu is to go knock them around with it. And then if you know it personally works for you, you wouldnt care what they say or feel insecure in the first place. If enough people jumped in at the local level, there would be more experienced CMA players down the road to compete in more nationally visable events.

But most of the time you just want others to go vindicate 'kung fu' (a term that is so broad and varied to begin with that it means a million different things), so that you feel good about yourself and what you spent (or wasted?) the past years doing. Go out and do something with it before you complain and then debate it abstractly ad nauseum on the internet.

The way I see it, you either need to enjoy your training for what it is and leave it at that (there are a lot of benefits besides fighting after all), or go out and make it work for you in the ring and prove people wrong... or go study a more popularly accepted style which will either give you the training youre looking for, or enable you to live vicariously through others acomplishments without the insecurity and frustration of having someone rag on your kung fu.

hers my opinion. kung fu was meant to be used in combat. mma has rules, even though they claim they dont. kung fu is usually lethal in techniques. sure it can be modified, however what you want to put it, but whatever. plus really, how many of us take kung fu to be a lethal master? how many of us spar 5-6 times a week for hours on end practicing our fighting. like someone else posted before, chan tai shen (sp?) he trained to be a fighter and it ended up in him wanting to kill his teacher. if you want kung fu that has rules takes up sports fighting like sanda. if you complain about ground game, take up bjj. if you want to stick top kung fu, kung fu can be applied to the ground, you can apply some chin na techniques in the ground position.

[Mutant]

Originally posted by Shaolinlueb
hers my opinion. kung fu was meant to be used in combat. mma has rules, even though they claim they dont. kung fu is usually lethal in techniques. sure it can be modified, however what you want to put it, but whatever. plus really, how many of us take kung fu to be a lethal master? how many of us spar 5-6 times a week for hours on end practicing our fighting. like someone else posted before, chan tai shen (sp?) he trained to be a fighter and it ended up in him wanting to kill his teacher. if you want kung fu that has rules takes up sports fighting like sanda. if you complain about ground game, take up bjj. if you want to stick top kung fu, kung fu can be applied to the ground, you can apply some chin na techniques in the ground position.

I agree with most of what youre saying, but i think that the best way to train for real combat is to train 'live' , not by adhereing stricktly to 'traditional' forms type training. Sure there are rules, but they enable you to train hard repeatedly against someone who's really trying to take you out... so you can deliver all those techniques in some sort of 'combat'.
Just my opinion, have a good weekend.

[Pork Chop]

PangQuan

cool :)


MutantWarrior

Great post about taking up the mantle.
I agree with it, though it's really hard to do with noone training you with full contact competition in mind.

[FatherDog]

Originally posted by Shaolinlueb
kung fu can be applied to the ground, you can apply some chin na techniques in the ground position.

Yeah, good luck with that.

[Shaolinlueb]

Originally posted by MutantWarrior
I agree with most of what youre saying, but i think that the best way to train for real combat is to train 'live' , not by adhereing stricktly to 'traditional' forms type training. Sure there are rules, but they enable you to train hard repeatedly against someone who's really trying to take you out... so you can deliver all those techniques in some sort of 'combat'.
Just my opinion, have a good weekend.

okay. i agree with the adheering to tradition.

look at old school boxers, very straight and stuff, hands up not moving around. look how boxing evolved to what it is today.

look at old CMA very straight forward, how has it evolved? look at sanda.
people just need to evolve, but they are so stuck in their traditonal ways. being traditional is great, nothing wrong with it, great training there. nothing wrong with being "modern" either, theres great training there also.

but when it comes to fighting, people evolve and such. a punch 1000 years ago was still the same as a punch of today. but the way people fight is a little different. if old style boxing is anything like old style cma then i can see what people are talking about with forms and how to use them. reminds me of an old shaws brothers film.

most people get caught up in the jet li dream i think of people able to take out 10 people and using fancy moves. kung fu sint fancy when it works. its quick and effective like the techniques used by chan tai shan and such when they fought in combat. and like sanda uses. i honestly think people do not understand that concept. is it cool to leanr a lot of techniques? yes. but ask any fighting teacher, they know a lot of techniques, but can they use them all effectivly? probably not, they probably have a couple they train hard and use a lot effectivly.

[Mr. Horse]

I think most people here miss my point. I guess it is because how poorly I wrote my first post. For that, I am sorry.

My kung fu is fine. I train everyday. I don't think that kung fu sucks. I feel that the state it is in now does. It is fulled with con-men, talkers, and paper tigers. You might retort that other systems have the same things, but in that sense I am not worried about other systems.

I knew there would be people who would disagree, but some of your replies are just plain rude. I kind of wish I didn't start this thread. Not because people disagree or call me names. It is because most of you missed my point.

[Shaolinlueb]

Originally posted by Mr. Horse
I think most people here miss my point. I guess it is because how poorly I wrote my first post. For that, I am sorry.

My kung fu is fine. I train everyday. I don't think that kung fu sucks. I feel that the state it is in now does. It is fulled with con-men, talkers, and paper tigers. You might retort that other systems have the same things, but in that sense I am not worried about other systems.

I knew there would be people who would disagree, but some of your replies are just plain rude. I kind of wish I didn't start this thread. Not because people disagree or call me names. It is because most of you missed my point.

well now that you put your point i also agree. always someone looking to make a quick buck.

[Fu-Pow]

Originally posted by MutantWarrior
I agree with most of what youre saying, but i think that the best way to train for real combat is to train 'live' , not by adhereing stricktly to 'traditional' forms type training.

Traditional isn't that narrow. It's just become that way. Mostly because of "forms" competition and performance. Look what happened to Karate and Tae Kwon Do in this country.

People are more interested in the external form and looking good. Wearing the cool uniform, speaking Chinese, jumping up high in the air. Posing for the camera. Calling themselves Sifu.

Don't discount form training though, it is important. It doesn't just train specific techniques, it trains Yi and Jin too. Its all designed to move you towards San Sau, "Free Hand."

Why does modern kung fu stop at training the body and mind and then never bring it into Real-time Application?

Its like learning all kinds of music theory but never learning to jam with it.

Why?
:confused:

[Merryprankster]

mma has rules, even though they claim they dont.

Kung Fu has rules too. Or do you have lots of one-eyed training partners with broken joints and internal bruising.

We ALL have rules we play by. The argument is honest to god only over which set is more "real." Whatever that means.

[count]

Originally posted by Mr. Horse
I think most people here miss my point. I guess it is because how poorly I wrote my first post. For that, I am sorry.

My kung fu is fine. I train everyday. I don't think that kung fu sucks. I feel that the state it is in now does. It is fulled with con-men, talkers, and paper tigers. You might retort that other systems have the same things, but in that sense I am not worried about other systems.

I knew there would be people who would disagree, but some of your replies are just plain rude. I kind of wish I didn't start this thread. Not because people disagree or call me names. It is because most of you missed my point.
Dear Mr. Horse's Ass,

Well now that you put it that way.. :) ..I still disagree with what you said and how you said it. I still say, it sucks for you guy. Too bad, you must live in the wrong state. :(

Thanks, and peace

[Knifefighter]

Originally posted by Mr. Horse
It is because most of you missed my point. Your point was well taken. The majority of kung fu guys can't and don't fight, but think they can. They do their little dances in their kwoons or in the park, but when push comes to shove, most kung fu guys get the snot beat out of them on the rare occassion when they mix it up with people who actually fight.

The theoretical non-fighters will tell you how great kung fu is, how is is thousands of years old, how it has all these great techniques, how the techniques are too deadly for competition, how it is made for self-defense, how no one needs to prove anything, etc., but that is because they are living in their little fantasy make believe bubbles of theory and pretentious blabber.

[PangQuan]

I do see your point more clearly now Horse. And it is very valid. I did not start training in my style of kung fu until just over a year now. I read many books on styles and other various angles of kung fu, looked for a teacher for a very very long time. Finally i found one. I will never leave him. I know him to be a true master. But before I found my teacher, I got into plenty of fights. All throughout my teen years I was living on the streets. At 20 I picked up my first Boken, 21 my first katana, 24 my first kung fu pants. I guess you could say my training is mainly from "the school of life" but I feel it is valuable experience that i can use to apply to my kung fu, and do. As i feel that i pick up the wushu quickly and already am aware of how to use movement to my advantage in a fight. The kung fu gives me the tools to have very effective movements.

[Mutant]

Originally posted by Fu-Pow
Traditional isn't that narrow. It's just become that way. Mostly because of "forms" competition and performance. Look what happened to Karate and Tae Kwon Do in this country.

People are more interested in the external form and looking good. Wearing the cool uniform, speaking Chinese, jumping up high in the air. Posing for the camera. Calling themselves Sifu.

Don't discount form training though, it is important. It doesn't just train specific techniques, it trains Yi and Jin too. Its all designed to move you towards San Sau, "Free Hand."

Why does modern kung fu stop at training the body and mind and then never bring it into Real-time Application?

Its like learning all kinds of music theory but never learning to jam with it.

Why?
:confused:

Agreed. I don't mean to make it sound like i believe that the san shou part is everything, but thats the stuff i end up talking about the most these days.

[Akhilleus]

Akhilleus...warn me next time when your about to post. I felt my IQ drop just from reading that non-sense.

OK ready...I'm going to post again...we don't want your IQ dropping even lower...you need all your wits about you when you go up against BJJ foes...


I knew there would be people who would disagree, but some of your replies are just plain rude. I kind of wish I didn't start this thread. Not because people disagree or call me names. It is because most of you missed my point

Mr. Horse, anyone that has spent a considerable amount of time in TCMA can appreciate what you are saying...I thought your original post was great and all you did was say what many of the rest of us were thinking...I appreciate your honesty...

[Mutant]

Originally posted by Mr. Horse
I think most people here miss my point. I guess it is because how poorly I wrote my first post. For that, I am sorry.

My kung fu is fine. I train everyday. I don't think that kung fu sucks. I feel that the state it is in now does. It is fulled with con-men, talkers, and paper tigers. You might retort that other systems have the same things, but in that sense I am not worried about other systems.

I knew there would be people who would disagree, but some of your replies are just plain rude. I kind of wish I didn't start this thread. Not because people disagree or call me names. It is because most of you missed my point.

Aww come on... its FUN calling people names on the internet Mr. Horse. Thats part of the game ;)

I do understand your frustration. I was just venting some of my own as well. Your post was good, it provoked a relevant discussion.
Cheers.

[Shaolinlueb]

Originally posted by Knifefighter
Your point was well taken. The majority of kung fu guys can't and don't fight, but think they can. They do their little dances in their kwoons or in the park, but when push comes to shove, most kung fu guys get the snot beat out of them on the rare occassion when they mix it up with people who actually fight.

The theoretical non-fighters will tell you how great kung fu is, how is is thousands of years old, how it has all these great techniques, how the techniques are too deadly for competition, how it is made for self-defense, how no one needs to prove anything, etc., but that is because they are living in their little fantasy make believe bubbles of theory and pretentious blabber.

have you ever had to sue kung fu to defend yourself? i personall;y havent but i know my sihing has had to many time4s and often the simplistic techniques work and can be deadly. he was also jumped in china by 8 punks and came away with jsut some skin ripped off his knuckles while he left 2 of them on the pavement for a night.

[Indestructible]

bump

[Fu-Pow]

Originally posted by Knifefighter
[]Your point was well taken. The majority of kung fu guys can't and don't fight, but think they can. They do their little dances in their kwoons or in the park, but when push comes to shove, most kung fu guys get the snot beat out of them on the rare occassion when they mix it up with people who actually fight.

Guys who fight in competition have more experience. That counts for a lot but it doesn't mean that kung fu guys can't hold there own in a real fight. Even if they've never mixed it up in the ring. If they got the body mechanics and the mindset developed through hard training I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss non-competitors.


The theoretical non-fighters will tell you how great kung fu is, how is is thousands of years old, how it has all these great techniques, how the techniques are too deadly for competition, how it is made for self-defense, how no one needs to prove anything, etc., but that is because they are living in their little fantasy make believe bubbles of theory and pretentious blabber. [/B]

That's a pretty blanket statment.

Are there any well-known, credible kung fu teachers that say that kind of stuff? Or are you referring to the quacks on the fringe.

Feel free to name names or quote quotes.

;)

[Knifefighter]

Originally posted by Fu-Pow
Are there any well-known, credible kung fu teachers that say that kind of stuff? Or are you referring to the quacks on the fringe. All one has to do is peruse any KF forum to see this stuff being spewed out. These people are usually being fed this BS by their instructors.

[count]

Originally posted by Knifefighter
All one has to do is peruse any KF forum to see this stuff being spewed out. These people are usually being fed this BS by their instructors.
Not that you don't make an excellent point Knifefighter. You do. You have 16 year old with three months in giving advice to newbie's starting out. You have people asking questions it's way to soon to think about. You have testosterone bone heads who just want to kick ass fast. You have Shaolin-do. Don't get me started. But you have the same thing on all the forums. Really, this **** isn't unique to kung fu. Think about it. ;)

[SPJ]

There are 3 sons joining the service.

Son A joined the mountain ranger. He was trained in shooting in the woods and how to camouflage and survive in the jungle for 6 months.

Son B joined the Naval academy. 4 years of schooling on physics, engineering, navigations, etc. 3 years of serving as intern in a missle guided ship. The last year as a intern commander of a SS-XYZ class ship. So it took him 8 years.

Son C joined the police academy. He learned Qin Na and combat Shuai Jiao with real partner hands on lesson 1 from day 1. Or spar as you learn. Or learn as you spar.

Son A calling to Son B, if you come to the woods and fire some shots or you do not know how to fight. Throw away your books and schooling and 8 years of what? What a waste of time. And you do not know how to fight.

Son C calling both Son B and Son A. Put down your gun and books. Come and wrestle with me. If you do not spar, you do not know how to fight.

Father saw the three argued.

Father said all in due time. Everything all in due time.

:D

[Knifefighter]

Originally posted by Shaolinlueb
... but i know my sihing has had to many time4s and often the simplistic techniques work and can be deadly. he was also jumped in china by 8 punks and came away with jsut some skin ripped off his knuckles while he left 2 of them on the pavement for a night. A perfect example of my point. Funny how almost everybody who trains in kung fu has instructors who have beaten mutltiple opponents. Of course, none of them have ever actually seen this happen.

[count]

I know, that one made me laugh too. But 3.5 years in and listing 3 styles? Say no more.

No offense Shaolinlueb. Think about how these kind of comments reflect on your sifu.

[Knifefighter]

Originally posted by count
But you have the same thing on all the forums. Really, this **** isn't unique to kung fu. It's not just the forums. I can't tell you how many kung fu instructors I have run into who say that real kung fu practitioners "can't be taken down." Of course they either won't give it a go because they don't want to seriously hurt me, or, if they are willing to give it a go and then end up on the ground, make the excuse that they couldn't really try because they might have killed me.

[count]

That is a complex issue. Hard to touch on in this kind of forum. But everyone is human and some people have more to lose besides their reputation and livelyhood. Again, I have personally challenged teachers in other different styles, and it's laughable what they'll say to avoid looking human in front of others. Including guys wearing 8 stripes on their black belts. It isn't unique to CMA. Any teacher worth a ****, will gladly mix it up a bit. Otherwise, walk away and laugh about it to yourself.

[Knifefighter]

Originally posted by count
But 3.5 years in and listing 3 styles? Say no more.. And three and a half years and a kung fu instructor? Another reason for the crappy state of kung fu.

[victor hung]

Hey everyone, this is my first post on these forums. I hope I am not stepping out of place. Just thought I would offer my thoughts on the topic. I've trained in traditional Kung Fu, Sanshou, Muay Thai, and Brazilian Jiujitsu. I've "mixed it up" with people from different schools in MMA style settings and also taken part in a lot of real fighting. None of this makes me a master of anything, but I think it gives me ground to stand on and some perspective. I think that traditional arts have a lot to offer. However, a lot of times they do lack the training necessary to make them effective. Most traditional MA classes these days are just that, classes. They teach technique, theory, and forms, which is great. However, without physical training and drilling the techniques, it just won't be that effective in application. Most people do not have the time for this kind of training these days. The reason Muay Thai, Sanshou, and BJJ are so effective is because the training is very physical and practical. And they do test themselves in competition all the time. So the art evolves.

It may very well be true that traditional masters are great and don't have anything to prove in the ring. More power to them. However, without letting students of the style experience the adrenaline of actual fighting/no holds barred fighting is a mistake I believe. I trained in traditional arts for years and froze up in my first street altercation. It was different than what I had always expected. Not because the style was flawed, but because I lacked the right type of training.

I think if you took your traditional arts and sparred, I mean as closely as possible to really fighting you could learn a lot. And not just against your kung fu brothers from the same school, get different styles together. Include the Muay Thai and BJJ guys. It opens the eyes. If you lose, it may not be the system that is flawed. Perhaps your training regimen needs tweaking. I know size, strength, etc. isn't supposed to matter, but it does come into play.

Real fighting is a different matter as well that I won't get into. This post will get too long. However, I will ask that everyone try to avoid fighting for real in order to test themselves. Sometimes you walk away, winner or loser and that is it. But I've been the victim of jumpings and follow up fighting from a single altercation. It isn't worth it. No matter how good your training is, multiple assailants, armed or not, will do damage to you and potentially your loved ones. It really isn't worth it. We are all martial artists in the end and should look out for each other. I think a lot of people in the MMA scene have lost the essence of martial arts. A lot of them just want to show they are the best and that their style is the best. We should all be helping each other improve instead of knocking each others practices.

Just my two cents. Good luck to everyone with your training. Hopefully you won't ever have to use it for real.

[SPJ]

Sorry to interrupt;

For people curious about my posts.

1. If you study, Aikido, Judo, Shuai Jiao, Qin Na or JJ, you study with live partner from Day 1. Spar as you learn or learn as you spar.

2. You may put in 6 months or more in training in San Da, you are "ready" to spar.

3. However, most CMA may require you to put into 8 years or more solid training and conditioning before you may be "ready" to spar. And of course, you spar or San Shou in various stages of learning with techniques you master along the way.

So everything is in due time.

Some thing just needs more time and the learning curves are deeper.

[SPJ]

The moon is from the earth. The earth is from the Sun.

So they are the same and why arguing who is bigger or brighter?

MMA is a platform that all styles may compete.

If, all styles of fightings in or outside of the ring, they are all about fighting. Then they all share common principles and practices. Why the arguements that the platform or the events in the ring are bigger and brighter than every thing else not in the platform or not in the ring.

"If you do not enter MMA events or BJJ events, you are not fighters and therefore you are krappy."

:confused:

Back to your regular programming.

[Merryprankster]

If you do not spar, you do not know how to fight.

Except that in your example SPJ, all three sons spar. With sons A and B, they call them "Wargames."

Scale is the identifier here, not the training method.

[SPJ]

Cool.

:D

[count]

Victor,

Down to earth and logical as your post sounds to me, and also with your experience, and as rational as your advice is about fighting, and taking into account that it is your first post on this forum, I really have to caution you about such sweeping generalizations, biased opinions, and unnecessarily cliche phrases, not to mention run on sentences when you comment on things you can not possibly know about.

When you say things like

Most traditional MA classes these days are just that, classes. They teach technique, theory, and forms, which is great. However, without physical training and drilling the techniques
would you mind qualifying how many "traditional" schools, so we can have a sense of what most means to you. Because I would estimate of the hundreds of "traditional" schools I have visited, it is only a small fraction of the "traditional" schools out there. And even if I visited twice each, I wouldn't have a clue of what goes on 365 days a year there. And if I did I wouldn't know the goals of many of the students at those schools to comment on what their training was all about.

When you point out

The reason Muay Thai, Sanshou, and BJJ are so effective is because the training is very physical and practical. And they do test themselves in competition all the time. So the art evolves.It might be interesting to examine why you think these methods "evolve" and why you think "traditional" methods don't. What are these practical methods and which "traditional" ones are impractical. And you might examine where these methods and formats come from in the first place. It might also be of benefit to see what these evolution's were and why they were necessary.

For example, Brazilian JuJitsu dominated the UFC at first with it's exclusive focus in their training and method of ground fighting. But in a very short time as other fighting styles competed, everyone who participated in this venue figured out what they were doing on the ground. It became much less effective and and people were forced to train in other styles to supplement their weaknesses. The terms like mixed "mixed martial arts" became popularized. Not a new style, but an evolution of an older one. Still, this is one style in one venue and hardly representative of the whole world.

I might also explain here about how San Shou evolved through years of Chinese political oppression, and a changing world, but I think our resident advocate, David Ross has posted volumes on that topic on this forum already, so just use the search feature. Does Kung Fu contribute to the venue? Yes and no, but if you ask me, many of the training methods are the same as you see from traditional Chinese Martial Arts teachers. It's just most people, (yes I will be so bold as to generalize here) most people don't stay long enough to even see these methods being taught at "traditional" schools.

Am I advocating for "traditional" martial arts here? That's a good question. I would say people should not get involved with learning them. They are dinosaurs which should have become extinct years ago. But for some reason, a handful of people have decided they want to keep this dinosaur alive. It makes me hopeful that the "state of kung fu" is not so crappy after all. It's the state of practitioners that may be weak and pathetic. That, and the exploding population and technological advancments on this planet making all this obsolete and insignificant.

As far as "Real fighting", I wish you would elaborate. In fact, I think everyone might find some answers in an understanding of what that is. Sure, it might make for lengthy posts, and long threads. Sure, some *******s would try to ruin it with their boasting and bragging about what they think real fighters are or proud talk of their "masters" epic victories, or of their "ring idols" and "world" champions. But the truth is, on a planet where people are being killed every day from war, disease, starvation, plain stupidity, it's funny to hear peoples opinions about what real fighting is on forums like these. And even funnier to see what importance people put on martial arts, whatever that oxymoron means to you.

So thankyou for your "2 cents" and here's mine in return. Hardly worth the copper, but welcome to the forum. I found several good points in your post. But if there is a dinosaur older than kung fu, it's the argument that my style is better than yours, and your style sucks.;)

PS: I know Mr. Horse's Ass made the different argument "my style sucks" and I agree with him 100 percent.

[Brad]

I think traditional wushu is just fine, and I've actually found it easier to find quality teachers than 10 years ago when I was a teenager. Maybe because more guys are getting websites and participating in online discussion and making themselves known, maybe because I just know how to weed through the junk better... probably a combination of both :p When my dad was starting out with martial arts he would've had a hell of a hard time finding a quality teacher at all, much less one willing to teach "outsiders" around here. When looking for quality schools he found one(a traditional Tae Kwon Do school) and stuck with it despite it wasn't the exact style he was looking for. Now, I can think of 5 quality traditional wushu teachers in the area(off the top of my head) and can choose from Baji, Taiji, Hung Gar, Bagua, Xingyi, Shaolin, and Praying Mantis and can learn to fight with any one of them if I'm willing to put in the time. There's more phonies hanging around here too, but it used to be that they were the only one's easy to find :p

So, overall, I think things are improving. More people have access to quality traditional training than before, which will create more quality teachers out there. Of course when styles start to become popular there's going to be more phonies or under qualified teachers throw out there by people trying to cash in. Not a whole lot you can do about that though, except inform people if you know someone is lying about what they do, and make sure what you're doing is the highest quality you can manage.

[victor hung]

Okay.... I think perhaps the points in my post were not drawn out as clearly as I intended. I was not arguing against traditional arts. I am all for them. I was simply stating that perhaps traditional MA could benefit from a little competition with BJJ, Muay Thai etc. It would help both sides wouldn't it? MMA is definately not the be all and end all of fighting. However, I feel that there is something to be learned from it.

I apologize for generalizing about "most" traditional schools. It was my own personal exposure that gave me that impression. If you have seen schools that still train and aren't classes, then I think it is great they are still out there. I just haven't been fortunate enough to witness them for myself.

By "real fighting", I simply meant outside of a ring, or school, or any kind of rules. Multiple opponents maybe, weapons, whatever. In a bar, on the street, etc. Is it with tanks and airplanes in "war"? No. Is it amusing what I consider to be real fighting just because I am not dodging NATO rounds fired out of machine guns? Is it amusing the emphasis people still put on martial arts? In case you didn't notice, this is a martial arts forum... so the fighting people talk about would be pertinent to martial arts right?

As for my run on sentences, forgive me. I didn't know you had to be an English major to discuss MA on this forum. I came on here to offer an opinion. Not any sort of factual account. I said that in my post, that is was an opinion. Of course I am open to debate and criticism. In no way do I feel that I have all the answers. I presented my thoughts based on what I have seen, which as you pointed out, is not EVERYTHING out there. However, I don't appreciate the way you decided to "welcome" me to this forum. All your arguments could be equally as flawed as mine. For example, who is to say that the "hundreds" of schools you visited didn't just happen to the hundreds of GOOD schools amongst the thousands that are really out there? Not likely, just making a point.

If my previous post offended anyone who read it, that was not my intention and I offer my sincerest apologies. Opinions are not always going to mesh, but there are ways of constructively criticizing without telling someone that their two cents is "not worth its copper". By the way, thank you SO much for being so gentle with my feelings considering it is my first post.

[omarthefish]

Following this discussion I just realized there's 2 separate issues here for me.

1. Proving to myself that I am learning effective, real martial arts.

2. Proving to someone else that I am learning effective, real martial arts.

I'll be ****ed, but shallow or not, their both important to me. But the paths to resolving those 2 issues are not the same and doing one doesn't automatically include the other.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Knifefighter
It's not just the forums. I can't tell you how many kung fu instructors I have run into who say that real kung fu practitioners "can't be taken down." Of course they either won't give it a go because they don't want to seriously hurt me, or, if they are willing to give it a go and then end up on the ground, make the excuse that they couldn't really try because they might have killed me.


Very true. I've had several of those experiences in person, not only with cma, but other tma as well.

[count]

Basically Victor and Knifefighter et al: I agree with you guys. The obvious point being if a martial artist wants to advance in any given system, the only way is to go out and test your self again and again, against other martial artists who are testing themselves and not cooperating with your program. Where I strongly disagree is that there are systems out there which are somehow doing more or better at this. Simply a question of geography and numbers. What may seem popular and easily accessible to you, may not be to someone with a different background or different tastes. In the end, it's the individual who must decide, who are they training to beat and what does it accomplish along the way. In the end it will always be the man and not the system who is crappy.

[Akhilleus]

Vic-
Great first post! Welcome to the forum!

[victor hung]

It seems that a lot of people here are in agreement and yet for some reason there is so much arguing. Yes, it is up to the individual to decide. I was simply making the point that we as traditional stylists shouldn't be close minded to using mma as a way to test ourselves. I was not saying it was the only way. I would like to keep everything respectful if possible. We are all here because of a common interest afterall.

[victor hung]

It seems that a lot of people here are in agreement and yet for some reason there is so much arguing. Yes, it is up to the individual to decide. I was simply making the point that we as traditional stylists shouldn't be close minded to using mma as a way to test ourselves. I was not saying it was the only way. I would like to keep everything respectful if possible. We are all here because of a common interest afterall.

[count]

Arguing? :confused: I thought this has been a tame discussion compared to some of the arguments around here.:D :D :D
You ain't seen nothing yet.;)

[lkfmdc]

this is KFO, we don't really get into "argument mode" until there's personal slander, insults, internet challenges, threats of litigation and at least a few bannings :D :D :D :D

THE BEST IS YET TO COME

[Ultimatewingchun]

"Okay.... I think perhaps the points in my post were not drawn out as clearly as I intended. I was not arguing against traditional arts. I am all for them. I was simply stating that perhaps traditional MA could benefit from a little competition with BJJ, Muay Thai etc. It would help both sides wouldn't it? MMA is definately not the be all and end all of fighting. However, I feel that there is something to be learned from it." (Victor Hung)


FIRST OF ALL...welcome.

Next...let me say that your name (especially your first name) - is very impressive.

And finally...you're quite right. What TMA needs is more exposure to and competition with other arts such as boxing, Muay-Thai, and grappling arts...

As well as more realistic training methods.

It's only at that point that they'll be able to know for sure what parts of their "traditional" systems work in today's reality and what should be discarded.

[victor hung]

Most people usually comment on how impressive my LAST name is... haha. Just kidding.

Anyway, I don't think necessarily that a Traditional system would have to toss out anything. I just think that since the world is much more civilized these days, perhaps some of the original interpretations of traditional techniques have been clouded. I am sure that traditional styles have survived this long for a reason. They must have worked well in the past. But yes, exposure to competition would be great for a refinement in both traditional arts and "practical" arts. I think that a lot of MMA guys write off traditionalists completely and that is a mistake on their part I think. Both sides have a lot to be gained from one another.

[sihing]

Originally posted by count
The obvious point being if a martial artist wants to advance in any given system, the only way is to go out and test your self again and again, against other martial artists who are testing themselves and not cooperating with your program. Where I strongly disagree is that there are systems out there which are somehow doing more or better at this. Simply a question of geography and numbers. What may seem popular and easily accessible to you, may not be to someone with a different background or different tastes. In the end, it's the individual who must decide, who are they training to beat and what does it accomplish along the way. In the end it will always be the man and not the system who is crappy.

Agreed...

[Ray Pina]

Come to NYC. I'll introduce you to some kung fu guys that you will say are boxers or mixed martial artists because "kung fu guys" can't fight like that .... but it's kung fu.

Who have you learned from? Who has the people you're judging learned from? I'm putting good money that your opinion stems from the answers to that question. Joe Joe's Kung FU Acadamy doesn't cut it.


PS
Thanks Gene for hooking me up with the new screen name. Much love.

[SPJ]

So you are eefee or EF?

:D

[SPJ]

RP;

Check out my new Tai Ji book when it is available.

It gives you all the essentials in apps and techniques. It is not comprehesive. But it got all the ingredients.

The examples are the main text. They are fighting problems with multiple Tai Ji solutions fully explained. Tactics and strategy are imbedded in an orderly fashion.

Any one that is serious to include some Tai Ji moves and techniques would not miss out this book.

The only thing that is missing is the training methods.

Heck, if you are a fighter or pro, you know how to drill these moves with the help of a good teacher or coach of course.

[victor hung]

Once again, I have seen traditional stylists fight effectively. I learned Sanshou from Shi De Shan in Houston and his stand-up game is just as effective as any Muay Thai I've seen. He fights in a low horsestance and still manages to be extremely fast in his movements and execution of moves. He uses the sidekick more than the roundhouse and to great effect. I would go so far as to say that Shaolin Sanshou seems more evolved than Muay Thai. It involves much more finesse and a higher level of skill (in my humble opinion). I just think that if he or some of his students competed with MMA'ers, it might open his eyes a little as well as the eyes of the MMA fighters.

Also, to claim that a true Kung Fu stylist will never get taken down is like claiming you can never get punched. No matter how good you are, it might just happen. Especially if multiple opponents are involved. It doesn't hurt to do some groundwork and have all your bases covered just in case right? And it is true that BJJ is not really effective against multiple people, cause you can get smacked with a beer bottle while trying to armbar someone. However, I would rather have the knowledge and skills than not have them. I was once in an altercation where I got tackled while fighting off a different person. We landed with him in my guard and I managed to pop his elbow with a quick armbar before any of his friends could hit me while I was on the ground. I rolled away after feeling the elbow snap and was on my feet again fortunately. I did get smacked up a good amount though. BJJ on TV is a long game of chess because both fighters are usually very well versed in grappling. My experience on the street was fortunate for me because the other guy had no idea what I was doing or how to defend it. So we weren't on the ground rolling around for 5 minutes. We went down and then BAM. Armbar.

[Fu-Pow]

Originally posted by Knifefighter
It's not just the forums. I can't tell you how many kung fu instructors I have run into who say that real kung fu practitioners "can't be taken down."

Tell us how many..... If you make a statement like that you've got to qualify it with at least some kind of estimation of numbers.

[Wharg0ul]

yeah, because people like to spend morte time nit-picking than training here ;) Make sure your posts have the proper links, referances, and foot-notes, and are free from any opinion that might need an extra page of writing to justify.

(wanders back to the kick-bag)

[Fu-Pow]

Originally posted by victor hung
It doesn't hurt to do some groundwork and have all your bases covered just in case right?

Is it better to be a jack of all trades and a master of none...... or simply a master of one trade. ;)

[PangQuan]

I like the idea of practicing my kung fu. Then one day, far down the road, I may have an idea of what it means to understand the deepness of kung fu. I dont care what anyone says about kung fu. It is quite obvious from taking in all of the visual refferences that are available to us, that kung fu has the ability to reach to a deeper level of awareness. NO ONE will ever reach even the lowest of high places regarding the adaption kung fu offers to the martial world, in but a few years. This i have noticed (even from my small experience) takes a very long time to accomplish. If you do not start when you are very young, chances are you will not find this level until your middle years. However if started at an early age you will have the opportunity to find this before your prime has passed. It is the ideal of what kung fu presents to the martial world that keeps us going. There are few who find it within their ability to actual use kung fu the way it is designed to be used. Many of us on here may be good fighters, we may have excellent form, but I truly believe that very few if any have reached this level of awareness and enlightenment. It is my deepest wish that one day within my years of life, that I may reach this point and experience for myself what kung fu really means. Mixed martial arts DOES have alot to offer the world of martial arts, excellent fighters, wonderfull people. I just happen to believe (as i am sure many of you feel this way) that what I personally look for within my martial life, will be found through a more traditional method. For the path may be similar the way we walk it determines how we reach the end.

[Fu-Pow]

Take that....*KONK*...and that.....*POW*....and that..... (http://www.goenglish.com/GoEnglish_com_BeatADeadHorse.gif)

[lkfmdc]

Originally posted by victor hung
Once again, I have seen traditional stylists fight effectively. I learned Sanshou from Shi De Shan in Houston and his stand-up game is just as effective as any Muay Thai I've seen. He fights in a low horsestance and still manages to be extremely fast in his movements and execution of moves.


You'll have to forgive me poking myself into this fascinating little discussion, but can we ask WHO you've seen him fight? When you say "he fights", are you talking about sparring in your school or in competition?



Originally posted by victor hung

I would go so far as to say that Shaolin Sanshou seems more evolved than Muay Thai. It involves much more finesse and a higher level of skill (in my humble opinion). I just think that if he or some of his students competed with MMA'ers, it might open his eyes a little as well as the eyes of the MMA fighters.



Why aren't you competing? Are you doing any san shou or san da? If so where and against whom?

[SPJ]

Foo Poooow;

Laugh so hard it hurts.

By the way, my laughters with Qi blasts woke up the horse.

Go back to the laughing mode.

Seriously.

Sarcasm with a style.

A very good one.

:D

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Fu-Pow
Is it better to be a jack of all trades and a master of none...... or simply a master of one trade. ;)

problem is that most of the time, that "master of one trade" is in reality himself a jack of all...

[Ray Pina]

Kung Fu has saved my life ... and I'm not talking about a self defense situation:) I can only thank Master Chan for that, for opening my eyes and ears.

.......
Mr. Ross, I received your e-mails and have a question: What now?

I've been training and growing and I want to fight. Will there be venues in the area still?

Ultimately I want to fight MMA. Any suggestions for a New York kid?

[Fu-Pow]

Originally posted by SevenStar
problem is that most of the time, that "master of one trade" is in reality himself a jack of all...

Ahhh-so...... (http://fusionanomaly.net/kungfuwhenpebble.jpg)

[SPJ]

Not laughing over a dale horse anymore.

Seriously pondering.

I think therefore I am.

The will or intent Yi mobilizes the Qi.

The Qi guides the force or Li.

---

:o

[Knifefighter]

Originally posted by Ray Pina
Come to NYC. I'll introduce you to some kung fu guys that you will say are boxers or mixed martial artists because "kung fu guys" can't fight like that .... but it's kung fu. Yes, there are some KF guys who can fight, but like you said above, they will look pretty much like MMA fighters, boxers or kickboxers. The vast majority of KF people think "real" KF fighters don't fight like MMA fighters, boxers or kickboxers. These are the KF people who can't fight.

[Knifefighter]

Originally posted by victor hung
However, without letting students of the style experience the adrenaline of actual fighting/no holds barred fighting is a mistake I believe. You hit the nail right on the head.

[Knifefighter]

Originally posted by SPJ
However, most CMA may require you to put into 8 years or more solid training and conditioning before you may be "ready" to spar. If this is the case, you are eight years behind the curve.

[SPJ]

It is only a figurative speech.

[victor hung]

No I haven't competed since 2000. I'm trying to work and pay my way through school. I am a full time student, part time armored truck driver, and work as a bouncer on thursday, friday, and saturday nights. I don't have as much time as I want to train for competition. When I do have time I am training sanshou and BJJ. I hope start competing again this upcoming year.

I just came on here to offer my own perspective and gain some from others on this forum. However I feel the need to defend myself all the time. Not too many things any of us state here are fact. Almost all of it is opinions right?

[Fu-Pow]

Originally posted by Knifefighter
Yes, there are some KF guys who can fight, but like you said above, they will look pretty much like MMA fighters, boxers or kickboxers. The vast majority of KF people think "real" KF fighters don't fight like MMA fighters, boxers or kickboxers. These are the KF people who can't fight.

Again, you're making sweeping generalizations that aren't really true.......compare and contrast:

MMA fighters like to take it to the ground, kung fu guys avoid this.

Boxers don't use their legs, one of kung fus main strategies is destroying the root.

Kickboxers kick a lot and often up high, kung fu mostly uses kicks low and mainly as a distraction (or to destroy the root.)

If you want to look at a competition art that most looks like kung fu look at San Shou: Kicks, punches, throws, leg attacks and sweeps.

Only things it is missing are joint locks and pressure point hitting.

[SPJ]

Victor;

It is called kneading the dough or Tzuo Tang Yuan.

One may introduce an arguement in on direction.

The other may introduce it in the other direction.

We end up with a round or ball like dough.

Because, the ball absorbs and deflects forces in all directions.

Some would call it weeding and pruning a Bansai tree.

A thread is a Bansai.

In this case, it is your thread or Bansai.

You are the host. We are all guests.

You may agree, disagree or redirect anyway you want.

That is why all the stars are round, ball like and not square.

However, if you say or claim something as "facts". You better prepare your arguements with good references or sources.

Otherwise, you are considered not worthy of your speech or post.

At the end of the day, it is still your own Bansai or garden.

You have to clear or sweep it the way you want.

Or just ride along with the current or flow.



:D

[SPJ]

Foo Pow;

No fair.

You read the fortune cookie.

:D

[Knifefighter]

Originally posted by count
would you mind qualifying how many "traditional" schools, so we can have a sense of what most means to you. Because I would estimate of the hundreds of "traditional" schools I have visited, it is only a small fraction of the "traditional" schools out there. And even if I visited twice each, I wouldn't have a clue of what goes on 365 days a year there. And if I did I wouldn't know the goals of many of the students at those schools to comment on what their training was all about. You make a valid point. However, we all have to base our judgements based on our and others' experiences. I'm sure I have visited far fewer kung fu schools than you have, but I'm still willing to bet that the large majority of KF training systems are much less effective for developing fighters than most MMA or BJJ schools.

Originally posted by count
which "traditional" ones are impractical.Impractical:
- Solo or two man choreographed forms practice.
- No hard sparring with gear.

Originally posted by count
And you might examine where these methods and formats come from in the first place. From theoretical noo-fighters. In theory practicing the movements in a pre-arranged manner should work to developing a fighter. In reality, these types of things program neuromusular reactions that are not suited to fighting.

Originally posted by count
very short time as other fighting styles competed, everyone who participated in this venue figured out what they were doing on the ground. It became much less effective and and people were forced to train in other styles to supplement their weaknesses.[/B]BJJ didn't become less effective. The other fighters simply learned it. The result was that you had people who knew BJJ fighting people who knew BJJ. The people who were "jacks of all trades" (which included BJJ plus standup striking and/or wrestling) were now able to take the "masters of one trade" (BJJ only) out of their game and into realms into which they were not as good. The BJJ fighters soon learned that they also needed to become jacks of all trades to be competitive.

[lkfmdc]

Originally posted by victor hung

I just came on here to offer my own perspective and gain some from others on this forum. However I feel the need to defend myself all the time. Not too many things any of us state here are fact. Almost all of it is opinions right?

1. If you want to have a discussion, don't get all offended when someone asks you to qualify a statement. IE, if you say your teacher fights out of a deep stance and is better than a Thai boxer you could at least state WHERE you've seen him fight and against who?

If the answer is "I see him spar in his school against his students" it means a heck of a lot less than you originally claim it to mean

2. uh, no, I pretty much state FACTS, as in effectively demonstrated in a variety of formats against live, resisting opponents who are not from the same school or style.... to me that is "fighting"....

If I tell you have San Da stacks up against MT, it isn't my "opinion", it's my experience of my guys vs hundreds of Muay Thai guys, under both their rules and ours, over close to 10 years...

[Fu-Pow]

Originally posted by SPJ
Foo Pow;

No fair.

You read the fortune cookie.

:D

Hopefully not this one! (http://midwig.apt103.com/archive/2000-05-08/chinese.jpg)

[victor hung]

I have no problem with people asking me to defend a statement.
People are entitled to agree or disgree. I just think we should all do so in a respectful manner. But hey, if I'm just reading it the wrong way then whatever. This is written over the internet afterall.

The reason I said the majority of what we are saying are opinions and not facts is because it is all based on our own personal experiences. You even said that the things you stated as "facts" are based on things YOU have seen right? It isn't a fact. If these "truths" were so easy to establish, we would not all be here debating online right? =)

As for San Da vs. Muay Thai, it has been stated already. It depends more on the actual fighter. I have seen my teacher fight against Muay Thai stylists that came to the school. Does that mean San Da is better? Hell no. I am sure there are plenty of higher caliber Muay Thai fighters that could probably take my teacher. I feel that the techniques behind San Da are more finesse techniques. However, Muay Thai seems to have a simpler method and perhaps better conditioning. Both have their merits. AGAIN, THESE ARE ALL MY OPINIONS BASED ON WHAT I HAVE SEEN! I keep saying that in all my posts and people get upset that I am stating "facts" that they disagree with.

[PangQuan]

I think this picture will sum up everything that is going on in the entire world. This is the ultimate nullifier to debate.

http://www.spiketv.com/downloads/images/desktops/ren_and_stimpy/ren_and_stimpy2b.jpg

[Fu-Pow]

*sniffle*

(wipes tear from eye)

That was beautiful......















:D

[PangQuan]

:D

I'm kind of symbolic.

[Ray Pina]

I think what Knife Fighter said makes a lot of sense. I do think to most foks who don't train with me my hands look a lot like boxing, and I don't kick or knee as much as something inbetween, but that is different.

It does look like boxing. But to someone who knows nothing about ground fighting, a wrestler and BJJ player APPEAR to be doing the same thing but how they do it, the underlying principles and even the technology may be different .... that makes them the same but different.

If you are fighting you are striking, kicking, locking, throwing and ground fighting .... you need those 5.

......

Knife Fighter is also correct in his judgement of the MAJORITY of Kung Fu schools. And I would say that judgement could be spread to at least 85% of martial art schools.

In my days of looking around I visited a lot of schools. And simply being where I am I see a lot of "martial artists" walk through the door and very rarely do you see one who is ready or willing. A lot of talk. A lot of fancy warming up. Not much after that.

[Fu-Pow]

I THINK I SAW HIM MOVE!!!!! (http://www.wildhorsepreservation.com/images/archive/dead_road.jpg)

[SPJ]

Sad.

Beating a dale horse.

If an arguement has been staged and settled, it will become stale if people keep going back to it.

My years in debate clubs--

You do not gain extra points by restating what has been said again and again.

In the mean time, you lose your valuable time allotted to your team.

Once a point taken, then move on.

:D

[victor hung]

Does anyone ever "challenge" schools anymore? I'm not talking about in a disrespectful, I am more badass than you, type of challenge. Just something friendly, even in private so no one loses face. Just a learning experience.

TMA was intended to take years to produce results, as pointed out by SPJ. In terms of "fighting", maybe it is behind the learning curve. However, my impression of most TMA is that they teach more than just fighting. The reason a master might make you do horse-stance training for 6 months and nothing else would be to teach you discipline. I don't think the goal of most TMA was to make the most effective fighter in the shortest period of time. That is what a lot of MMA coaches are trying to do.

What do you guys think? MMA fighters lacking the virtues that TMA originally was supposed to teach?

Another thing to consider, is it possible that in today's busy world people have less time to perfect their traditional arts? Maybe that is partially why BJJ and Muay Thai are so popular. Seemingly quicker results? Maybe not. Just a thought.

[lkfmdc]

Originally posted by victor hung
Does anyone ever "challenge" schools anymore?


In the modern world, which HINT we currently live in, people getting together for sparring and exchange and growth isn't a "challenge" it's called cross training and all intelligent martial artists do it. We even started a cross training league here in NYC using my gym

As for challenges in the old style, YES, they still happen ......

[Yum Cha]

Face it guys, none of these sport fighting styles "emulate" reality any more than forms training. Both are only part of the whole.

But, being that this horse has been beaten into wee little bits of French Hamburger, I suggest we ramp it up a bit. What we need is a new type of competition. Here is what I propose, a new "realistic fighting" league:

Firstly, the competitors have to wear street cloths, no cup, no mouth guard and no gloves, however, whenever you fight in cold northern climates, you wear a jacket, with the option of some nice dress gloves, fur lined only. In Australia, its board shorts and a singlet, thongs and a floppy hat. WAIT!! Each country is allowed to host it in "national" dress. Makes for better marketing to the local market...more relevence, sponsorship, you know....

Next, the bout takes place in a converted bar room. There are no ropes, only stools, chairs and a long hardwood "bar" down one side - and it is half carpeted, and half tiled with slick tiles. The "Referee" stands behind the bar, and is obliged to grab at and restrain any fighter coming within his grasp. In championship bouts, there may be two or three....

Each fighter must drink at least 4 beers or mixed drinks, but are not limited to only 4, and two must be poured over the tile surface in a random manner.

The spectators are allowed to wander through the "arena" if they dare, and the fighters are allowed to use anything loose at hand as a weapon. There will always be ashtrays, beer glasses and one only Pool Cue within the "Arena". During championship matches, a knife will be randomly awarded to one of the combatants.

Each figher is allowed 2 "seconds", whom are allowed to sucker punch an opponent if he comes within reach, or start to kick them if they go to ground.

Following a coin toss, each round starts with the alternating fighters getting a free swing at his opponent from behind.

The match is over when the winner decides it is over.

Directly following the match, the winner must run 1 mile within 6 minutes, or spend 90 days in jail.

Winners will be automatically featured on "Extreme Makeovers" and receive the plastic surgery of choice - from ***** enlargement to reconstructive surgery, depending on the need.

Can anybody add anything that would make it more realistic?

Perhaps there should be a "Bar Room League" a "School Yard League" (slightly different rules) and even special events, like "Dinner Party Rumble" or "BBQ clash", or "The Mugging"?

Cheers

[Knifefighter]

Originally posted by Yum Cha
Face it guys, none of these sport fighting styles "emulate" reality any more than forms training. Both are only part of the whole.
Theoretical non-figther's BS. Sport fighting is a couple of steps away from a real fight. Forms are about 15 steps away from real fighting.

[victor hung]

Really? We live in the modern world? Gosh... I guess I should stop wearing my straw sandals and katana everywhere I go...

Cross training would be getting together to teach other. A challenge, the way I meant it, would just be a friendly match.

[Yum Cha]

Originally posted by Knifefighter
Theoretical non-figther's BS. Sport fighting is a couple of steps away from a real fight. Forms are about 15 steps away from real fighting.

And of course, you know this because , in your own words, you don't practice forms....

Oh wait, you don't spar either.....

You must be an ASS-ASS-IN! Yikes!!!!!

[SPJ]

It used to be called exchange of hands or moves.

Gou Zhou or Jiao Shou.

There are many and many different rules and variations thereof.

For example, you have to defeat someone in 3 moves or 10 moves etc. if not, you lose.

So there is no wasting move or trying someone out.

In real life combat with multiple opponents, you may have the time for a single move to end or cripple one opponent at a time and there is no second try.

[Knifefighter]

Originally posted by Yum Cha
And of course, you know this because , in your own words, you don't practice forms....This is true. My opinion is based on all the people I have met over the years who spend most of their time doing forms and don't have a clue about fighting.



Originally posted by Yum Cha
Oh wait, you don't spar either.....Uh... not sure where you got that from. I've been sparring, competing and fighting for 25+ years.

[Yum Cha]

Originally posted by Knifefighter
This is true. My opinion is based on all the people I have met over the years who spend most of their time doing forms and don't have a clue about fighting.

A hard point to argue, because, I have seen the same, I know some places are overrun with this kind of "Kung Fu." But, it is fallacious reasoning to assume that because you have seen some examples of this kind of training, that all TCMA are the same.


Originally posted by Knifefighter Uh... not sure where you got that from. I've been sparring, competing and fighting for 25+ years.

My bad, I went back and looked it up, I was mistaken. You said you didn't know, not that you didn't spar. Apologies.

Truth is, you love sparring, more power to you. I used to love it too. But its just the middle stage, not the top end.

[Wharg0ul]

forms are simply an example of how to link the moves of a style together, and a way to practice all the moves of a set easily and continuously. Forms are the skeleton of your style, with application being the meat. Anyone who only studies forms is not going to be able to hold water in a fight.

But sparring without forms is equally worthless. A building cannot stand with no foundation.

It is a pity that there's so much "hollow" CMA around. People give SD crap, but at least we have all of our bases covered, and don't train just to look nice. On the contrary, people complain about how "ugly" our stuff is, but it's because of it's practicality in application.

[Brad]

Face it guys, none of these sport fighting styles "emulate" reality any more than forms training. Both are only part of the whole.
Of course they emulate reality closer than forms. What's more like real fighting, thrust kicking into an imaginary person, or thrust kicking into a real person?



TMA was intended to take years to produce results, as pointed out by SPJ. In terms of "fighting", maybe it is behind the learning curve. However, my impression of most TMA is that they teach more than just fighting. The reason a master might make you do horse-stance training for 6 months and nothing else would be to teach you discipline. I don't think the goal of most TMA was to make the most effective fighter in the shortest period of time. That is what a lot of MMA coaches are trying to do.
Some do, some don't. TCMA has been contributed to over the years by a lot of different groups over the years during different time periods. A lot of system created during war time by military instructors meant to be taught to soilders is probably going to aproach things like that differently that a system created during peace time by a monk that spends all his time living in a monastary.

I agree with you that some training methods probably have more reason for being than just creating a top notch fighter. I don't need to do a complex taiji form to learn how to use taiji techniques in a fight, but the form helps me in other ways.

[victor hung]

Yes Brad, you make a good point. I forget that their were styles created during wartime meant to build quick and practical fighting skills in a short amount of time. Point taken.

[Brad]

But sparring without forms is equally worthless. A building cannot stand with no foundation.
Someone who spends all there time hitting people is going to be a lot better off in a fight than someone who spends all their time punching and kicking in air ;) I think I know what you mean, but the way you're saying it just doesn't make any sense.

Someone who fights all the time(assuming they survive!) is going to learn lessons about what to do and what not to do a lot faster than someone using techniques on imaginary openents. A fighter without form training is going to improve through trial and error... learning from mistakes. A forms person who never spars is going to work hard, but won't have the same feedback on errors that a fighter will have.

[Yum Cha]

Originally posted by Brad
Of course they emulate reality closer than forms. What's more like real fighting, thrust kicking into an imaginary person, or thrust kicking into a real person?

I think you msssed my point about the equal lack of "reality".

i.e. thrust kicking into the air thousands of times,

versus

thrust kicking a padded opponent with a padded leg, but not in the balls. Also, he can't trap your leg, attack your ankle or knee, or attack the knee of the supporting leg, for example....

not to mention jamming your kick and taking your hair into a claw hand, dragging your head sideways while....oh, be still my fluttering heart, I get so excited....

My point is the lack of reality, not the preference for either....

[Knifefighter]

Originally posted by Yum Cha
But its just the middle stage, not the top end. And what, in your opinion, is the top end?

[Brad]

thrust kicking a padded opponent with a padded leg, but not in the balls. Also, he can't trap your leg, attack your ankle or knee, or attack the knee of the supporting leg, for example....
What format are you specifically talking about? I was thinking this kind of stuff is perfectly legal in some sport fighting arenas. Sport fighting(depending on which format) is still more realistic that training only forms.

[Knifefighter]

Originally posted by Wharg0ul
But sparring without forms is equally worthless. A building cannot stand with no foundation. Really? I guess that will be news to all the wrestlers, BJJ guys, Sambo stylists, boxers, and MMA fighters out there to find out they are worthless.

[SifuAbel]

Yes and no. Its somwhere in the middle. Yes, someone who only plays the shadow and doesn't actually hit and get hit will be empty. But, I've trained many whom have fought alot yet had enormous bad habits that they had developed while fighting.

The middle road..............

[Knifefighter]

Originally posted by Yum Cha
I think you msssed my point about the equal lack of "reality".

i.e. thrust kicking into the air thousands of times,

versus

thrust kicking a padded opponent with a padded leg, but not in the balls. Also, he can't trap your leg, attack your ankle or knee, or attack the knee of the supporting leg, for example....

not to mention jamming your kick and taking your hair into a claw hand, dragging your head sideways while....oh, be still my fluttering heart, I get so excited....

My point is the lack of reality, not the preference for either.... Hitting the air is further from reality than hitting a heavy bag, which is further than hitting an opponent, which is further than hitting an opponent who is also hitting you back. The closer you can get to reality, the more your training will transfer to reality.

Someone who only punches the air and jumps around like a bug will have very little transfer of training to real-life confrontations.

[Ray Pina]

Don't forget to add fencers and E-Chuan stylists to that list of no formers.

Also, it should only take 2 to 3 years to build a fighter. Martial Artist on the other hand is a lifetime pursuit .... but that time is not spent collecting form but cultivating ones mind and spirit.

[red5angel]

Also, it should only take 2 to 3 years to build a fighter. Martial Artist on the other hand is a lifetime pursuit .... but that time is not spent collecting form but cultivating ones mind and spirit.


That's a good way to put that Ray.

[Wharg0ul]

Originally posted by Knifefighter
Really? I guess that will be news to all the wrestlers, BJJ guys, Sambo stylists, boxers, and MMA fighters out there to find out they are worthless.

Although they don't necessarily have training methods known as "forms" specifically, many of these systems have drilling sets to convey the basic concepts of a technique before they expect you to perform it in a sparring environment.

Say one thing on here, and post three more times to satisfy the nit-pickers. :rolleyes:

[Ray Pina]

Thanks Red. I've been growing up a lot lately and things are much clearer and making more sense.

[David Jamieson]

knifefighter-

You seem to be missing the point of gradual building.

even soldiers don't get thrown into battle without training.
And when they do get thrown in with little training, the casualties are high.

More training, casualties are less.

The same goes for any type of fighter.

Boxers learn to breath and stand first, then they learn the structure, then they learn the force feedback and the techniques then they spar.

All development is gradual and yes there are people with innate fighting skills, but I think advancing to the end of the course without putting in the foundational work will ultimately make you not much of a challenge for even a half ass fighter.

[victor hung]

MMA fighters have plenty of drills and they get plenty of training before getting throwin into a fight.

[Ford Prefect]

I don't know where you guys boxed and trained MMA, but it was sure a lot different where I did. We were fighting live from DAY 1 in most cases. We didn't "build a foundation" of technique first. The foundation we build off is experience against fully-resisting opponents. From there, we then refine technique, strategy, and style. It's not the other way around.

[PangQuan]

Foundations come in many ways. Concrete or stone and mortar can be used to start a strong foundation for a house. We can build a single framed house using 2x4's, a log cabin, or bricks. It all depends on the preference. Point is though, that a foundation will be reached no matter what methods you use, without this foundation the entire structure is under danger of collapse. If you learn from fighting on day one, then this is the begining of your foundation. It is just a different type of foundation. You cannot have apples without first planting the tree.

[Ray Pina]

Ford, that's exactly how I trained southern mantis. It makes ya tough, no doubt about it, but I apreciate drilling now to slowly build a skill set (by slowly I mean nail a technique in 3 weeks at the most) AND THEN go do the road test. The other way I found myself flailing a lot and reinforcing bad habits. But that was then.

[Goldenfist]

Horse,
Like it or not, your message is a "hard" message to those who make claims or consider themselves Kung Fu or martial artists. I feel as you do that there are way too many who are quick to capitalize on the ignorance of others to make a quick buck. They know a few forms and have the gall to market themselves as "trainers" to teach others.

I say to people all the time, if you didn't witness it, then don't be so quick to confirm someone else's tale. There are not too many true kung fu master around that know fighting. But there are some still. Most other pretend to be or want to be.

I figure this way, if I never saw the guy fight and if they don't have anyone in their school who can, then they are "whatever" and no Kung Fu Master in my book PERIOD!

GOLDENFIST

[victor hung]

When I started doing BJJ, we learned basic positions first and did a few drills. Once we were comfortable with that we grappled with more advanced students. They were nice and played gently with us new guys. Instead of going for submissions we just fought to gain good position or at least defend some submission attempts on us. As we progressed in that area our instructor would introduce a new choke, armbar, sweep, etc. Soon enough, you had enough to develop an actual game plan. I think that is ok for grappling because as long as your partner isn't trying to kill you, no one gets hurt too badly. You aren't striking yet.

Now when you are training in striking arts, I think more time is usually given to drilling before actually fighting. At least in the schools I've been in. Throwing guys in before teaching them much of anything sounds like a lawsuit waiting to happen.

[Merryprankster]

Now when you are training in striking arts, I think more time is usually given to drilling before actually fighting.

First sparring session in boxing, 2 weeks.

First sparring session wrestling, 4 days.

First sparring Session BJJ, day one. We do now make new guys attend 16 classes first. But that can be accomplished in about 2 weeks if you're dedicated.

[SevenStar]

merry, knife and ford have allowed the correct to spar on it's first day of training and beaten it into unconsciousness

[SifuAbel]

Why is everyone obsessed with the word "only"?

[SPJ]

Brother A studies combat Shuai Jiao and Judo.

He said we spar as we learn and we learn as we spar.

Brother B studies Ba Gua has to work around the punching bag in circle for 6 months.

Brother B asked why brother A has all the fun.

The teacher said all in due time.

I explained to my brothers both spar and practice are "both" ways of learning. Hence not "ONLY" one way or the other.

Sort of paraphrasing here.

:D