Ethics and martial arts...

[Brad]

A question for some of you "historians" out there...

When/how did the learning of basic morals (don't lie, respect your parents, help those in need, etc... that sort of stuff), become closely associated with martial arts? Is it a modern thing that came about when people started teaching comercial kids classes or is it something that's been with martial arts for quite awhile?

What was the norm... heroic guys like the Huang Fei Hung we allways see in the movies, or bad@sses like Chan Tai San who killed someone over the questioning of his reputation as a fighter?

I also think of some of the characters in Baji Quan's history(forgive me if I screw up the stories :p)... like Li Shu Wen who would kill his oponents in challenge matches, and was latter poisoned by one of his own students because he was hated too much. I think there was another guy who used to tie criminals up to trees and gut them like fish (executed when the communists took power, I think).

It seems that there's a lot of martial arts scolorly type teachers now who put history and morality #1(which isn't really a bad thing for a kids class), when a lot of the old masters were often downright criminal by todays standards(and maybe illiterate).

[SPJ]

Yes and No.

True, the bandits mastered Kung Fu. The good heroes mastered MA as well.

General Yuet Fei in Song dynasty. He wanted to stay home and care for his half deaf/half blind mom. Mom said no. If there is no country, there is no home. He used the rattan army to destroy Jing's armored horses in chains. Unbeatible till him. Xing Yi theory. Wu Ji Quan, Wu Mu Bin Fa, Wu Mu Quan on and on.

Fong Si Yu and Hong Xi Guang. Hung Gar or Hong Men was antiQing movements due to Qing's destroying the Shaolin Temple.

----


On and on.

[PangQuan]

Look into Taoism and Confusianism. This will give you your answer.

[PangQuan]

Also this is very similar in any countries background. There are always morally correct individuals with skill, as well as morally incorrect individuals with skill.

[SPJ]

Correct me if I am wrong;

Samurai is the fighting class for the emperor of Japan for over 700 hundred years.

Zen was used to study and as a method of morality cultivation as well.

In that case, Zen and Samurai are inseperateable.

However, Zen was not introduced into the other classes of people in Feudalism in Japan.

In that sense, morality cultivation is not specifically for MA'er but across the society as a whole.

[SPJ]

Aikido or the Dao of Qi Harmony.

Judo.

Even karatedo has morality codes and cultivation methods as Wu De or Bu something.

Aikido students are told to respect the elder students and mob the floor of Dojo.

The code of ethics is stressed thruout classes.

[Pork Chop]

I think it was the opening of commercial schools.
Sifus wanted a better social standing (to distinguish themselves from those that learned the MA just to kill), so they adopted the Confucian structure of ethics; plus added in a healthy dose of Taoism and/or Buddhism.
If you look at how close some of the rituals for kung fu are to those for the various Tongs; it kinda makes you scratch your head.
Then again, a lot of those rituals trace their way back to the 3 kingdoms (specifically the shu with Liu Bai, Guan Yu, and Zhang Fei), and the 108 mountain brothers.

[FuXnDajenariht]

what do you do when you create an army of killers but its peace time?

you instill ethics and discipline into them so they dont go around raping and pillaging.... martials arts and morality are inseparable ideally. power and responsibilty.

[GunnedDownAtrocity]

i think the ethics and morals have always been there and were followed as closely then as they are now.

[FuXnDajenariht]

exactly... we get our ideas about honor and ethics (wu de) from ancient military culture. they weren't created in a vacuum and mcdojo owners certainly weren't smart enough to create them. lack of wu de leads to a life of crime. they weren't created as an afterthought.

[Pork Chop]

The general values and ethics were part of the culture; I can agree with that, but the strict adherence to Confucian ideals I believe was exaggerated when schools started going commercial.

[Ray Pina]

I was just a little kid, 4, and my teacher thought I'd be too young so before he'd teach me anything he made me kneel (sit on my legs Japanese style) for weekd and all the discipline of bowing on the way in and bowing to take a **** and bowing on the way out and don't talk of 50 push ups on your knuckles and we'd read the school code of ethics before each class.

Its this kind of thing that most Kung Fu misses. Some of my kung fu teachers, before my master, they were a litte on the shadey side ..... but then again, I guess that's what I was looking for at the time, too.;)

[David Jamieson]

Martial ethic in context to Chinese Martial arts is primarily drawn from the Confucian Analects.

In buddhist martial arts, it is tempered with buddhist ideals and in Taoist martial arts, the same. The military martial arts draw their code from the analects as well, but also interweave the wisdom of strategy and tactics. IE: why do you want to hold back instead or charging in etc etc.

As for the Japanese codes, such as Bushido, These were based on the cultural class syetm and mostly applied only to the Samurai.

Zen is a continuance of the Chinese Ch'an and is an import to Japan. In my opinion, zen has little to do with martial ethics and instead is an exercise in revealing your true self to your concious self.

The Ch'an stems from earlier east indian religio-philosophy and is an Import to China. Although, to be fair, The actual way of Ch'an was created and born at the Shaolin Temple and not in India. Butr to be even fairer, the precepts of Ch'an are from earlier Buddhistic teachings that do indeed come from india.

Individual school codes these days run the gamut, but mostly deal with being a good person, honour the laws of your country, do not abuse the knowledge and skill you have attained etcetera etcetera.

[SPJ]

Second on the tactics and strategy.

There is a common saying. Everyone learns about it on the first day of MA class or used to.

Jiao Bin Bi Bai.

A proud army will lose.

A lot of ettiques are "training" or "imprinting" the students to be humble.

[SPJ]

Chan has replaced old ways of offerings to be redeemed.

Apparently, the senarios of being lowered into animal realms and 18 levels of hell did not prevent people from doing evils.

People always thought to buy their bad karma out. And "religious" practices were only reserved for monks.

Chan and Da Mo changed that.

One has to meditate to seek truth and see things in the light. Only then may one stop cycles of karma and reincarnations.

Sort of active participation for life after life, till one reaches the release or relief from the cycles of lives.

Cause and effect.

Actively doing good deeds and saving all life forms.

Some are required to help others to get into the right path.

They are enlightened (Buddha) and volunteer to stay in this hellish living world to help others to get across the river of life to the other shore.

They are Bodhisattva.

[SPJ]

The other common saying I heard over and over again.

Yao Yung Wu Mo.

Have courage or bravery but do not have strategy.

This is the biggest taboo of any MA'er.

We win by tactics and strategy and not by bravery alone.

I got knocked or tapped on the head a lot.

Tap!

Yao Yung Wu Mo.

Smile.

:D

[WanderingMonk]

so, I was watching the history channel and they ran a doc on the history of the "samurai".

I missed first twenty minutes, but to summarize, samurai code were mainly developed during the ~100 years+ of relative peace before the meji restoration. the samurai class were attempting to find a purpose for themselves in the time of peace (soldiers without a war to fight) to justify their existence to themselve and others. they began to formalize ritual and codes of conduct (i.e., buring incense in your helmet before wearing it so when the enemy chop thy head off, he will have a pleasant experience. uhemm.....). it became ritualized and institutionalize.

before this period, the concept of honor although exist was not taken to the extreme. before this period, you can find war reports which states the enemy were numerous and more powerful, so we fled. during this period of peace, fleeing from combat was look down upon. death in combat became a great honor. etc, etc.

after meji era, japanese war machine needed to instill fanaticsm into their soldiers and they adopted "bushido" for their needs. they institutionalize bushido as the code of the Japan nation. as every japanese was a samurai in some sense.

if one take this doc to be accurate and my interpretation of the presentation to be accurate, we can draw the following conclusion, when people have more time than they know what to do with it, they can get really mess up. maybe not on every occasion, or at least, in this case, it seem like it.

what does this have to do with this thread's topic, how the heck do I know.