Anyone changed from a "longer ranged" MA to Wing Chun?

[straight blast]

Has anybody changed from a "long fist" style like Choy Lay Fut or Muay Thai to the shorter fist style of Wing Chun? By the way I know MT isn't technically a long fist style, but the way I was trained it was a bit like one.

And more importantly, does anybody else find it bloody difficult???

As an ex Thai Boxer I find that bobbing and weaving & generally moving my head & body about to be second nature nowadays, and my blocking skills have gone to crap. A boxing block is great against boxing gloves, but no good against a vertical fist! Everytime I try to defend with just my hands and not bob & weave I get tagged across the face (or wherever). Admittedly, I'm still very new to the whole Wing Chun thing. Has anyone else had this problem? Is there anything I can do to get past it? I'm sick of getting b**chslapped all the time.
It might just be that my reflexes are slowed by having to conciously think "don't bob & weave, now hmm, do I tan sau"? Just blowing off steam.
Oh well, I guess when I do have the hang of it I'll know I've earned it!! :rolleyes:

"Through strength, learn gentleness. Through gentleness, strength will prevail"

[Watchman]

I am another convert to Wing Chun from Muay Thai, although my time in Muay Thai was limited to just over a year.

The hardest thing that I had to shake was bouncing on the balls of my feet, and leading my punches by dipping my head forward and dropping my shoulder.

Both habits were a sure fire method of getting straight punched in the mouth. :rolleyes:

You've just got to give yourself time to unravel and reprogram is all. Concentrate on relaxing as much as possible and your Wing Chun practice will start to wear grooves into your nervous system.

If you're anything like me, though, you'll experience some overlap while you're reprogramming. Imagine bouncing on the soles of your feet while in sidling stance (Chum Kiu Ma) and holding Man Sau/Wu Sau forward. :rolleyes:

[Nichiren]

LOL... I know what you mean. I had a terrible time when adjusting from boxing/thai(5 years) to WC(3 years and counting).
- Everytime I got hit in the face my reflex was to duck and move closer to my sihings. This resulted in blunt trauma by elbow to the centre of my head, ouch...
- I got kicked in the balls plenty of times, ouch...
- It felt like I was standing on a slippery surface and my opponent totally controlled my balance.
- My first reaction to chain punches; WHAT THE F*CK WAS THAT, OUCH...

I still have problems because the boxing autopilot sometimes takes over. I have noticed though that it doesn't happen often anymore.

[Gluteus Maximus]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Imagine bouncing on the soles of your feet while in sidling stance (Chum Kiu Ma) and holding Man Sau/Wu Sau forward. [/quote]

LOL!!

Hi Straight Blast,

I'm just reiterating what Watchman said. I trained in western boxing and Judo before starting Wing Chun. Judo was OK but boxing created the same problems that Watchman and Nichiren spoke of for me.

Watchmen was right on the money when he said that relaxation will begin to wear new grooves into your nervous system. Lots of SLT and Chi Sao will help. This will create a new "muscle memory".

During SLT, relax, sink, breathe into your dantien and feel the subtlest nuances of each movement, thinking of nothing else.

Anyway, I reckon the intensive training you're about to have will "re-program" you pretty fast!

Max

Yooby Yoody

[straight blast]

I stand in the presence of some knowledgeable people I see. It's good to chat to people who have fought the same fight that I'm fighting now. Just a question. Was there any reason that you (Watchman, Nichiren, Gluteus) decided to leave the arts of boxing & muay thai for Wing Chun? How do you find it holds up to your old arts? I know at some point I'm going to have to go back & spar my old Muay Thai buddies. I'd like to give them a sneaky surprise!!!
How long did it take you to lose the Muay Thai guard? I automatically do it. Oh well, I'll learn from the pain. :D
Thanks for the encouragement fellas :cool:

"Through strength, learn gentleness. Through gentleness, strength will prevail"

[Gluteus Maximus]

Hi Straightblast,

Well, I learnt western boxing at high school a long time ago, and didn't even hear about Wing Chun until many years later. The reason I stopped boxing was that after I left high school (actually a strict, boys-only boarding school), the attractions of women and other types of fun suddenly bumped a manic boxing training regimen right out of my list of priorities in life.

I don't know anything about Muay Thai, but Judo taught me a few worthwhile things about body mechanics and energy flow that I personally found compatible with Wing Chun.

Cheers,

Max

Yooby Yoody

[MixedMartialArtist]

Just to throw in my 2 cents...
I'm currently training in a combination of WC and MT, and I (personally) find that they compliment each other fairly well. I use the MT kicks and "bob and weave" in combination with the WC center-line blocks and vertical punches. Once you get the hang of the WC stuff that's new to you, you can use your knowledge of MT to go even further.

[EmptyCup]

To all the Muay Thai practioners out there...what the heck is a "Voodoo Shield" that supposedly prevents one from being hit by all attacks? I highly doubt there is a single technique that can stop all attacks but I'm curious iof such a term even exists. The reason I'm asking is because some stupid MA mag had one of those "learn to fight in 1 second" ads and it mentioned the "Voodoo Shield"...

[tiger_1]

my friends in real fight that muai thai and kick boxing vs wing chun is just cildren game is have only good low kick and onthers punch is just stupedity,but im beliwe good wing chun chi sao is more of opponent for CLF too.- just friendly tiger_1 ;)

/

[MixedMartialArtist]

I've never heard the term "voodoo shield" but, I think I might know what they're referring to. If anyone out there can prove me wrong, feel free.
My best guess: you've probably seen MT guys raise one leg to block a low kick by taking it on the shin, right? If you lower your elbow to meet your knee, you'll block pretty much anything (on that one side) aimed from your shins to your throat...obviously it won't block near your head, 'cause you just dropped your guard. It's fairly effective, but no technique is foolproof ... if they switch sides faster than you can drop your leg and raise the other, you're without the proverbial paddle.

[Gluteus Maximus]

The very name "Voodoo Shield" is designed to instil fear into the hearts of the enemy. It's actually a play on words on the title of a famous song by Jimi Hendrix.

When somebody threatens to use "Voodoo Shield" on you, even if you haven't heard of it before, it can sound vaguely familiar, threatening, insidious and downright scary, especially if you're the superstitious type.

Then again, it could have something to do with holding a headless chicken in each hand and spraying your opponent with chicken blood, which is also scary. :eek:

Max

Yooby Yoody

[Watchman]

I've never heard the term "vodoo shield" either, but my first guess was the same as MMA's.

With the elbow to knee guard you want to keep your opposite hand close to your chin so you can immediately throw an overhand or cross after you absorb the blow you're shielding in order to shut down any follow-up attack.

MMA,

obviously it won't block near your head, 'cause you just dropped your guard.

You can actually cover your head quite well if you crunch your abs as you raise your knee, hunch your upper back, tuck your chin into your shoulder, and make sure to cover with your forearm.

Here's Tito using the elbow to knee guard (he's using his opposite knee, though). You can see he's got his chin tucked, forearm covering his head, and his opposite hand close in to counterpunch.

<img src=http://www.photoloft.com/view/exportImage.asp?s=jasc&i=8281158&w=249&h=250>

[This message was edited by Watchman on 10-24-01 at 07:38 PM.]

[straight blast]

Yeah the chicken thing happened a lot where I trained. :D We found it easier to do our Voodoo stuff if we wore wigs with long black Dreadlocks, kinda like Rastas. But we gave it up 'cos we're all Aussie whiteys who can't do a jamaican/african accent for the life of us.
Now we simply refer to it as the "Struth!!" shield :cool:

"Through strength, learn gentleness. Through gentleness, strength will prevail"

[Gluteus Maximus]

LOL @ Straight Blast!!!

Max

Yooby Yoody

[EmptyCup]

hey, while we're talking about muay thai i have two more questions :D Please bear with me guys :p

Firstly: I was taught by a Thai guy to block say, a roundhouse to the head like that pic. Basically place my ear against my forearm and absorb the kick. In Wing Chun we are taught to put force AGAINST the kick. Which do you guys feel is more effective?

Secondly: Thai fighters keep their arms apart like boxers do, thereby leaving their centerlines open. I've seen many a Thai fight where the opponent gets hit right between the hands. One fight I saw on TV, the guy kept on getting nailed by elbows coming up the middle right between his hands! Do you feel that the Wing Chun neutral hands posture is more effective as a stance? I'm not talking about the legs here but just the placement of the hands. To occupy the centerline with arms out or arms tucked in and protecting the temples?

Any opinions are welcomeed as I'm curious as to the perspective of those who have done Wing Chun AND Muay Thai

[Watchman]

In Wing Chun we are taught to put force AGAINST the kick. Which do you guys feel is more effective?

Actually, from everything I was taught, putting force against the kick is what you DON'T want to do (especially if you're facing a guy that can put his shins through 2x4's).

A Thai high round kick makes quite a bit of perceptible motion at the trunk. Once the opponent's trunk turns to power launch the kick the most efficient method, IMHO, is to invade forward with Biu Ma to get inside the kick's apex.

That will put you right in his face.

Do you feel that the Wing Chun neutral hands posture is more effective as a stance?

Yes, but not as a static position, but because of the penetrative/wedging power that the position affords.

[Nichiren]

I do not think that you can mix boxing/thai with WC and get god results if you look at the self defence perspective. This may be controversal but the only time when I feel that boxing/thai has the upper hand over WC is when boxing gloves are used. A good boxer/thai will kick the sh*t out of a good WC guy in the ring with boxer/thai rules.
I do on the other hand belive that I am a much better WC fighter due to my boxing/thai experience because of the matches, sparring and conditioning. Boxers and thai fighters are tuff guys that are able to receive and dish out pain.

I have besides WC trained JuJutsu for a couple of years. This is a good self defence mix. Imagine wrestling with a guy on the ground(if you think you will never end upp on the ground because you are the king of WC, think again... it may happen!) and simultaneous use WC chainpunches and elbows. A JuJutsu guy just loves it when someone throws a punch at him/her boxing style. It is a shure way of ending up in a painfull joint lock. A WC guy throws short fast punches with elbows tucked in without changing the posture of the body = excellent in ground fighting.

Does anyone else mix JuJutsu with WC and what do you think?

/N

[straight blast]

(1) It's definately a good blocking structure, but I found it has a few problems. It's fine if you are blocking someone your own size, but if you're blocking someone bigger you feel the *smack* right through your head. I saw a Thai Boxer get knocked out by the force THROUGH the guard. It's as effective as your conditioning. As to the Wing Chun style block (Kwan Sao?) If you can move into the kick before it reaches full force (is this what you mean by putting force against the kick?) I think that it's better.

(2) That open guard is a mixed blessing. I think it's designed to protect against roundhouse elbows. But man is it open to straight punches. But it is deceptive in that it puts you in the perfect position to deliver an elbow to anyone throwing body rips. Try it sometime. I feel a little uncomfortable with the WC guard at the moment ('cos I'm quite new to it) & I feel like my head is just begging to be hooked. My temples feel naked. But it almost seems designed to go "right up the middle" of a MT guard.
I think given a little time I'll like the WC guard more. Each to their own. :cool:

"Through strength, learn gentleness. Through gentleness, strength will prevail"

[Sharky]

i quit my jj class cos there was no ground fighting. it was all standing up. do you mean bjj?

All i wanted was some RICE CAKES! Now? WE MUST BATTLE.

[Nichiren]

Sharky: You say that you trained JJ but there wasn't any groundfighting??? You probably lucked out choosing dojo. There are some JJ styles that focus on standing techniques.

My JJ style isn't BJJ but we do a lot of groundfighting. I can honestly say that an equal BJJ guy would whip my ass(JJ rules). They are so good on the ground.

[Sharky]

yeah man, maybe. they were into learning how to roll n stuff a little too much for me man, i see the importance of learning how to fall right if you're gonna be thrown around a lot in class, but the more senior dudes did not seem to do any groundwork either.

if it's what you're looking for, it's a great place to got though. i'm sure the senseis there knew how to fight on the ground...

All i wanted was some RICE CAKES! Now? WE MUST BATTLE.

[fmann]

note about the man sau/wu sau hand position: it's a dynamic position and it moves according to your opponent. If he's 7' tall, obviously you should have your hand positions calibrated to the difference in height, etc..

as for hooks, you are right: it does seem open. but when you start learning to move and flow with hooking attacks, then you won't really worry about it. give it some time.

as for roundhouse kicks, it's all about moving with the kick. either going in close or by redirecting it. if you try force against a really hard thai rh kick, you are going down.

[MixedMartialArtist]

Recently, I sparred (light contact) against my roommmate who did MT for a few months. I used the WC "neutral" hand position as my guard, he used the more open MT guard. For the hour or so we sparred, he never made it past my blocks, and I tagged him a number of times between his arms. Obviously, this is merely my personal experience with this particular guy (granted, he's inexperienced and not very good), but this certainly convinced me of the benefits of the WC guard position.
By the by...thanks for the clarification and pic on the "voodoo shield" issue....didn't think about that.

[Steven T. Richards]

Anyone know WC Si-Fu Samuel kwok? He was a Tibetan White Crane Si-Fu before his WC - his maternal uncle and Si-Fu was the late great master Luk-Chi-Fu. He would be a good person to ask as he has such high status under Ip-Chun and Ip-Ching and Luk-Chi-Fu was World Class within the Tibetan arts.

FWIW I did it the other way around, I went from WC to the Tibetan - and also to SPM.

[CerberusXXL]

I have practiced the style of Goju ryu karate for 14 months now and I must admit that coming into Wing Chun was pretty difficult. The problem that I have with Wing Chun is that it is so different which means that I have to learn and re learn certain things. Now, I'm going into my third month of Wing Chun and things are finally starting to flow, and the more I practice Wing Chun the more it makes sense.

[hunt1]

I know Sam.He was the first Sifu to authorize me to teach.If you are near him I highly recommend learning from him.He is very down to earth and very open with his teaching.One of the most interesting things about him is that with his vast knowledge of other styles he is a pure WC man.His fighting etc is all WC.

[Steven T. Richards]

Hello,

I know (knew) Sam very well indeed back in the 80's and thru the 90's. I started WC in 1973 and carried on studying it with Sam for a while. It was to be truthful only becasue of our friendship and his sincerity to me at that time, otherwise I wouldn't have bothered.

It's mostly people who impress me, rather than
systems. It is sad that a lot of people 'brought up' by him in WC go on to 'forget' about him when he has opened the door to the IP brothers for them.

He is technically very sound and a possible direct successor to his teachers Ip-Chun and Ip-Ching.

It would however suprise very many people who think that they know him just how good his Tibetan White Crane is, and, also just what his private opinions are/where about it compared to 'other' systems that he does.

Sadly our friendship has cooled off over recent years, but that happens. it doesn't chanhge my regard for him as a person or as a reprersentative of WC.

His Tibetan Crane is very good. He just doesn't like to admit it. FWIW I believe this is partly because of his status in WC and not wishing to offend the Ip's.

[Sihing73]

Hello,

I had the privelige of training with Samual Kwok several years ago when he accompanied Yip Chun on a seminar in NYC. To be honest, I only attended out of respect for another person present. I am glad I went though as I was very happy with the material presented. I found Yip Chun to be a very likeable fellow and very soft. Of course, with his size, I don't think he would do too well trying to utilize strength over technique. One of the things that really impressed me was that he was something like 72 years old at the time. Now, if I can still move around like him when I am that old I will be happy.

Samual Kwok was a true gentleman and very open to answering questions. I found him to be very good technically and was happy to have the chance to Chi Sau with him. I only regret we did not have more time to interact with each other. I did not know anything about his Tibetan White Crane but that does not surprise me.

Peace,

Dave