neat lil hypothetical . . .

[chessGMwannabe]

alright, I'd like a few of the more experienced WC pacticioners and instructors especially to give their shot at this, and if anyone there has any real experience with this, your insight would be especially useful.

anyway here goes:

if you were to have a student that was really excited about the martial arts and wanted to learn something and came to you (a sifu) and asked for your advice on what MA to take up and if they really could do a good job at it, what would you do? by the way, this student is missing their left arm (a leg would be even more severe!). that would really mess up the way that wc is conventionally taught, which anyone in here could agree with. do you thin kthat it would really be worth it for them to take up wc or would you advise that they picked up something that didn't depend so much on the use of their hands, like maybe tkd? and if you were to teach them, how would you do it?

it is really hard for me to picture teaching a one armed person wing chun by traditional means and expectig them to ever perform at anywhere near the level of someone of their same skill level. there are just too many holes. how would chisau work? you could have them practice with a student that just used on hand to level the terms, but as soon as that other hand came in, asta lasagna, don't get any onya! I think that teaching them the system taht is based on a full healthy human body, you could get them to learn a great deal of technique, definately get them good enough to take on the average shmo (especially since they'd probably be underestimated as a cripple), but that they would never really be able to hold their own against their peers(wc students of similar skill, speed, strength, etc . . .) they'd just come up one fourth short.

however . . . . I think taht the same wing chun principles that are used to make a normal person fight with incredible power could be adapted to someone that only had three limbs. people hat have lived with disabilities for a while know their bodies very well. if you've ever shaken the hand of a healthy gyuy in a wheelchair, you'll notice that they have a very good grip. I believe that it is easier for them to focus their energy, will, chi, etc to s specific part of their body becuse they have less to worry about, and their muscles strengthen to make up for the loss. it's like the deaf guy having really good sight. so I'm interested in what way instructors would try to make a new system per say based on teh same principles. I'd imagine that footwork and stance would probably have to charge, maybe even some of the 'don't do's' like 'don't kick above the waist' would be done away with. let me know what you guys think, this is kind of your chance to be creative.

and maybe all of this kind of thinking will help us learn to make wing chun adapt to our bodies as well, cause we're all a little different, so I think being overly dogmatic makes us forget ourselves, and think that we'll really be 'the ideal kung fu machine!'

--kevin

[whippinghand]

Much skill can be developed with single hand chi sau.

[Martial Joe]

Yeah,and if they were missing their leg they could float and to single leg chi gerk...

http://www.stopstart.fsnet.co.uk/smilie/lolup.gif IXIJoe KaveyIXIhttp://www.stopstart.fsnet.co.uk/smilie/lolup.gif
I am Sharky's main man...

[EmptyCup]

If his purpose is self-defense, get him to suppliment wing chun with a stong leg based system such as TKD. The one-hand chi sau thing is very limited without the use of another hand...

Wing Chun is too centered on the arms and trapping techniques. Other styles you could get by easier with one arm because they use each individually. Wing Chun uses both in almost all techniques...

[Gluteus Maximus]

As you said, people with disabilities compensate by developing skills that non-disabled people don't have. Often their skills are truly amazing and mind-boggling - creating beautiful paintings holding a brush in their mouth or between their toes, etc.

I'm a guitarist and so I'm interested in the technique of many of the great jazz, rock, blues and country guitarists. Django Reihardt was a Gypsy Belgian jazz guitarist with a truly amazing technique - blindingly fast runs, etc. It would be amazing for a person with the use of all their fingers to develop such a style, but he could only use 2 fingers of his left hand due to losing the use of his index and middle fingers during a fire at the age of 18.

Someone with one arm who was really determined to learn WC would probably compensate in the same way as Django Reinhardt, by developing Dan Chi Sao to a degree that non-disabled people would find amazing and hard to comprehend. Combined with further compensation in the form of footwork and kicks, etc, I wouldn't be surprised if they could end up being just as formidable with their WC as just about any non-disabled WC practitioner.

Max

Yooby Yoody

[whippinghand]

It would be interesting to see a one armed guy make a fool out of a two-handed. I'd certainly bank on the former.

Dan Chi Sau does not have to be as one typically learns it. It can have the same dynamics as with double hand chi sau.

[joy chaudhuri]

Whipping hand is correct. Single chi sao can
create a good martial artist with one arm missing.
There is a fairly well known taiji person who has one hand and also holds his own. Paul Lam who helped introduce wing chun to the Uk had polio in his legs as a kid. he compensated with great
arm abilities and arm controls. I have a superb student who has very limited eyesight. Never underestimate the human spirit. Unfortunately
we are facing the one eyed Omar in Afghanistan.
In the 18th century Afghanistan was over-run by one eyed Ranjit Singh and his Sikh swordsmen.
Given all the hand and foot weapons of wing chun
it is a most adaptable art. A good student just has to find a good teacher.

[TeqUnique]

1.Reply to Emty cup: Wing chun is only limited by the way its tougth and the human mind... It doesnt need to be mixed with another system. Go and train with more instructors if you beleive this is so.

2. A one armed person can use the advantage of surprise. An assilant will be quite surprised when a single armed fights agressively. Lap sau + jik dang gerk could be one solution to straight line punch. Alot of apps can be done, if you go for a pre contact whipe out.

3. Wing chun isnt nessarely for fighting. People train for different causes. A one armed man could enjoy the training part without the need of thinking that much self defence.

Teq

Less is more
Short is long
Slow is fast
This is the key to all understanding.
- Lao Tzu

[yenhoi]

what the fu(k?

strike!

[joy chaudhuri]

?

[[Censored]]

A one-armed fighter should not face their opponent squarely at close range. End of story.

- WhippingCensored

[Jeff Liboiron]

I'm missing my right leg, and i really enjoy wing chun, i have no problem adapting at all. Give your student a chance, if they practice lots they will become as good as anyone with four limbs, maybe even better.

[whippinghand]

Niether should a two armed fighter.

[EmptyCup]

Teq...that is why I said if his PURPOSE was foe self-defense it would help if he also trained in a system strong in leg work. Wing Chun is not strong in leg work. Fighting with one arm is a disadvantage. True, you can be good at it but I doubt anyone would argue that it is better than having TWO available hands...

[OdderMensch]

"what you talkin' about Whippin' hand"? (done in best young gary coldman voice

also to the origional poster, why would you start useing high kicks if you had one arm?

[dzu]

"Wing Chun is not strong in leg work."

I'd have to disagree. Wing Chun is very strong on leg work. I'd say that, if trained properly, it's more varied or just as varied as tae kwon do etc.

Dzu

[[Censored]]

So do _you_ _generally_ put one side forward, or move in and out, or just turn alot?

And don't even think of saying "everything in its proper time", I call bullsh*t on that. ;)

[whippinghand]

I do whatever is necessary.

[[Censored]]

And to maximize the simultaneous use of both arms, it is necessary to face your opponent squarely.

On Earth, people have one arm on each side of their body. What's it like on your home planet?

[whippinghand]

Yes, that is the COMMON understanding of the way Wing Chun is supposed to be...

[[Censored]]

...as 4 is the commonly understood sum of 2 and 2.

Some people understand it differently though. Dummies, for example. But I digress.

[whippinghand]

You mean geniuses...

[chessGMwannabe]

anyhow, I left out the most important part of my original post, that's what I get for being tired :) I meant to say that I think that I think that I 3 limbed person could very possibly surpass his peers because he would have to try harder so he would be more disciplined and have a stronger will then the average shmo. also it'd be harder for other people to adapt to fighting someone in an unbalanced fight, whereas he'd be used to it.

Jeff Liboiron

power to you! it's really great to see someone that's willing to tackle hard problems, I'd take any advice that I heard you give pretty seriously.

--kevin

[OdderMensch]

*ahem* In best zim voice :

"Worse? ....... or better. :D "

now sorry

I have to go with chess that he could out do many peers by training with more zeal.

I am also failing to grasp why you'd want to kick "high" or not "square" yourself to the "victom"

[whippinghand]

My little secret...

[chi-kwai]

I nearly choked on my coffee when I read "Wing chun is not strong in legwork."

--
chi kwai

[[Censored]]

Do you really think that, if you put one arm behind your back, your opponent will become confused and disoriented?

More likely, they will beat you like you stole something.

[chi-kwai]

Its pointless to belabor this, but Wing Chun is so strong in footwork. People that call the system incomplete aren't aware of its potential. It is sort of like martial arts books with the word "Secret" in the title: is it really a secret or are you just not fully learned in the system?

I am always learning and I know relatively little, but I also know what I can look forward to.

--
chi kwai

[chessGMwannabe]

sorry, last night I had to get off abruptly, I especial wanted to reply to OdderMensch's thing about kicking high. I wasn't trying to say that that particular rule would be safe to abolish. I don't consider myself to be an authority on the subject by any means, I'm just a student. I was mostly curious to see if anyone that really knew their wing chun would say that although raising your c of g was dangerous, it might be less dangerous being outclassed only 4-3 instead of 2 to 1. and I think I could say that other systems of kung fu do manage to kick with some effectiveness high,b ecause they are trained and flexible. does it raise their balance and make them vulnerable? yes. but does it hurt to get kicked by one? duh. the system of wing chun says that it is more hurt then good to try to kick high, and I agree. but I think that it would be a terrible mistake to think that just because someone is doing 'bad' kung fu means that they aren't dangerous, or that you should be able to win just becuase you are doing things the 'right' way. another rule that might be reconsidered would be the no groundfighting rule, if you were missing a leg i mean, because it might be able to keep a firm base on the ground than standing like a flamingo, and pretty handwork isn't very strong if you don't have a base. I'm not saying that as though it is right, just bringing up the possibility; I'd like to hear what knowledgeable people have to say about it. that's that

I don't think that wing chun is weak in footwork either. if it is, it's becuase you particularly haven't trained your footwork enough. I don't see why it would be great to switch systems that use, 'more' footwork when you could just practice more footwork that is in wing chun.

fighting someone that has only three limbs is an unbalanced fight. I wish that there were someone else in here that knew a lot about chess, because I learned chess long before kung fu, and it really surprised me that most of the principles that work on the chessboard also apply to kung fu. the way that the peices work around and fight for control of the center files of the board is almost identical to the way taht we fight for control of the the centerline. it made it really easy for me to learn kung fu, cause I already knew most of the stuff. and stuff that I learned in kung fu I could use back on the chessboard and it'd also work. the reason that I say this is because in the game of chess one frequent way of playing the game (especially for very aggressive players) is to sacrafice material early in the game in what is called a gambit. you lose material, like a pawn or two, sometimes even a piece, for compensation in tempo and opening lines for attack. most often though, gambits are unsound and if you had two supercomputers bash out that position spending 2 hours on each move, whoever offered the gambit could hope for at best a draw, often times losing. but in practice, especially in lower level competition, especially blitz games. they succeed. they aren't a strong attacking idea, but they unbalance the position so that it creates a very high probability that someone can get checkmated in a hurry, and if you aren't used to playing gambits, you'll be very likely to lose, even if your side has advantage just because you aren't used to being so unbalanced. An even stronger example from the chesworld would be the chessplayer emmanuel lasker, who held the championship for 30 years of the early 1900's (the longest championship in history) he was wasn't an aggressive player but he loved to mess with people's heads, and exhaust them mentally so that even though they would be on the verge of winning they would make terrible mistakes. anyway I'm rambling, but it is hard to fight in a unbalanced fight, even if you have an advantage, the stronger will usually wins. it changes the rules, especially if the one armed guy had a faster stronger arm and cleaner, more efficient footwork, which he probably would, because he'd have to to hold his own. if you only have a few things to worry about training, and you spend the same amount training, each thing you train will get more out of it. try training something in particular for a while, you learn a lot faster.
--kevin

[TeqUnique]

Emty cup - It is the mind that defines victory or defeat not hands (on an early stage of conflict). Its where ur mind puts your body which defines you weaknesses. A fight can end by intercepting an attackers intuition... The attacker doesnt even need to start a punch to be defeted.
Secondly, the attacker is rarely using wing chun or any style at all. There for one can rely on direct and unexpected wipeouts.
- One of the most known fighterpilots from the WWWI had only one arm. I suggest we keep our humbleness towards the unexpected.
Teq

Less is more
Short is long
Slow is fast
This is the key to all understanding.
- Lao Tzu

[TeqUnique]

Emty cup - It is the mind that defines victory or defeat, not hands (on an early stage of conflict). Its where ur mind puts your body which defines you weaknesses. A fight can end by intercepting an attackers intuition... The attacker doesnt even need to start a punch to be defeated.
Secondly, the attacker is rarely using wing chun or any style at all. There for one can rely on direct and unexpected wipeouts.
- One of the most known fighterpilots from the WWWI had only one arm. I suggest we keep our humbleness towards the unexpected.
Teq

Less is more
Short is long
Slow is fast
This is the key to all understanding.
- Lao Tzu

[whippinghand]

"I was mostly curious to see if anyone that really knew their wing chun would say that although raising your c of g was dangerous, it might be less dangerous being outclassed only 4-3 instead of 2 to 1."

When kicking, one should not raise his centre of gravity.

[Jeff Liboiron]

"power to you! it's really great to see someone that's willing to tackle hard problems, I'd take any advice that I heard you give pretty seriously."

--kevin

Thanks for the support Kevin :) i appreciate it :)

The object is not to hurt someone else, but to stop them from hurting you