Traditional forms training. (especially knifefighter)

[count]

Forms are NOT a method of training or learning to fight. If you forum guys and gals think so it is because you haven't learned yet or your teachers never did. Traditionally forms are learned as a method of passing on the history and flavor of the system.

Traditional training obviously has different methods of fight training. Training for strength, power, speed, endurance, overall conditioning come from specific training, not forms. (Feel free to discuss these.) Fighting within the context of the class, outside the class with others, in tournaments and competitions are also part of the training.

Some commercial schools probably have a problem with this either because of insurance liability or just keeping students who would otherwise walk away from the hard work and pain of learning martial arts. If all you are learning is forms, you will not be able to learn martial arts.

And don't get me started on health blah, blah, blah. Being active is healthy but their is nothing else healthy about learning or training martial arts.:p

[Yum Cha]

Would you agree to the extension of your idea that forms are the tools, fighting is the craftsmanship?

[Pork Chop]

count has single palm changed the correct into unconsciousness

[SPJ]

How we practice;

1. Perfection and intensity.

The drill or the practice of Gong Fa or Lian Gong.

This is the dreaded word.

You repeat the same punch or kick with and without bags over and over 100 times, 250 times in a row from 25 min to 45 min or more.

I was asked to walk in Ba Gua circle back and forth for 25 min, 45 min or 1 hour and half and yes everyday.

The moves are drilled over and over till perfection. And every single time has be right with full intent and power.

The props are usually destroyed before the drills are over.

2. Realtime response

Spar only with one technique learned at a time. The teacher or the training partner will attack in all ways to get you, you are allowed to use only one technique. This way you are forced to think about all the possibilites or potential apps of a singel move. I would maneuver in all ways to make the move workable. Most of the time, I was avoiding or maneuvering till the time and opportunity occurs and done.

3. Foundations

The drills to perfection. The study of apps. They both come hand in hand. It is the root of your fighting skills.

[Knifefighter]

Originally posted by Yum Cha
Would you agree to the extension of your idea that forms are the tools, fighting is the craftsmanship? If I understand count correctly, forms would be the book or the video that catalogs the various techniques. Practicing the forms would have nothing to do with fighting, other than for remembering the techniques of the system.

[Knifefighter]

Originally posted by count
Forms are NOT a method of training or learning to fight.Traditionally forms are learned as a method of passing on the history and flavor of the system. If this is the case, wouldn't that make them pretty antiquated and inefficient in these days of digital cameras and word processing?

[SPJ]

I have nothing against the forms.

It is only a piece of the puzzle.

[Knifefighter]

Originally posted by count
Traditionally forms are learned as a method of passing on the history and flavor of the system.If this is the case, how do new techniques fit in? And how would you get rid of old ones that have been replaced by better ones?

[SPJ]

Tai Ji Quan used to be called old 3 cuts or Lau San Dao.

In the classics, there are documents or theories of 13 postures.

Tai Ji is a continuous boxing or Chang Quan and consists of 13 postures.

Which means there are only 13 moves.

General Cheng Wang Ting, a Ming general retired after Qing takeover. Tai Tzu Chang Quan was used to drill Ming's palace guards and army.

Based on TZCQ and emphasizing silk reeling or Chan Si. He compiled Chang Quan 108 forms, Pao Zui or cannon fist 2 forms etc.

Chen Chang Xing then combined and shortened all these drilling forms into Lao Jia Yi Lu and Pao Zui Er Lu. There are long staff, Da Dao, straight swords, etc drilling forms.

They are forms for drilling.

Usually we have to take them apart into 6 or more segments.

Drill each move over and over.

[count]

I'm gonna hit this later when I get a minute, but as far as technology goes, we have dvd's, computers and such. I still tell my kid stories and encourage her reading books. I'm not trying to convert people to my way of life. Like I said in the other (ugh) thread...

Originally posted by count
Am I advocating for "traditional" martial arts here? That's a good question. I would say people should not get involved with learning them. They are dinosaurs which should have become extinct years ago. But for some reason, a handful of people have decided they want to keep this dinosaur alive. It makes me hopeful that the "state of kung fu" is not so crappy after all. It's the state of practitioners that may be weak and pathetic. That, and the exploding population and technological advancments on this planet making all this obsolete and insignificant.

I would have posted this in that thread, but there was no sense in beating a dead Horse.

[count]

Originally posted by Yum Cha
Would you agree to the extension of your idea that forms are the tools, fighting is the craftsmanship? Hands and feet are tools. Bags and weights are tools. Forms are nothing but a collection of techniques put together. If you want to use the techniques, I suggest doing them in the air isn't going to help much.

[count]

Originally posted by Knifefighter
If this is the case, how do new techniques fit in? And how would you get rid of old ones that have been replaced by better ones?
Well, I'm not sure there are new techniques. Maybe new methods or strategy of using them. But as far as my personal training, forms are changed and modified over time I guess. Whole new systems evolve from older ones. But anyway, I get your point.

[SPJ]

The moves and forms, how they come about:

This is a 2 way street.

1. Theory first;

Some Chinese boxing methods have theories first, such as Xing Yi theory by general Yuet Fei, Tai Ji theory even longer before there are boxing sets.

The theory evolved over time. The boxing moves based on theories took root. More moves are added on over time.

2. Incorporation of theory;

In 7 stars mantis, if you have the 16 methods, Gou Luo Diau Cai, Beng Tza Gua Pi, Zhan Nian Tei Kao, San Zhuan Teng No, your boxing moves may be called 7 stars Tang Lang.

Over the years, northern boxers adapt or incoporate these methods into their own boxing moves. There are over 400 forms thruout Northern China. 7 stars become the most diverse and popular school of CMA.

3. Practice first.

Theory developed later or summarized later.

[Indestructible]

We have to fight through our forms, but we also break each individual fighting motion down and drill them seperately as well. Forms should preserve the art aspect of your style, but they should also have specific fighting application.

[count]

SPJ,
I hear you. I totally understand what you're talking about. I would throw out some information about pai da training or sand bag training from piqua that comes from traditional methods too. I think you'll need to give more information though. Unless people here understand your Mandrin with the Taiwanese accent, I don't think they'll really get the jist of what your putting out.;)
Great stuff though.

[SPJ]

KF;

To make a long story short.

Forms are not outdated. They are uptodated by new moves and theory with the practitioners.

1. Chen Fa Ke added more small circles and folding or Hui Zhuan. The forms from Chen Chang Xing become Xing Jia.

2. Cheng Ting Hua studied Shuai Jiao first. He was the best and favorite student of Dong Hai Zhuang. Cheng incorporated Shuai Jiao into Ba Gua Zhang.

3. Yi Fu incorporated Shaolin Lo Han and Tang Tui into Ba Gua.

etc

[count]

Originally posted by Indestructible
We have to fight through our forms, but we also break each individual fighting motion down and drill them seperately as well. Forms should preserve the art aspect of your style, but they should also have specific fighting application.
LOL, I might say duh, but I get your point. I would say we don't even learn a form until we learn basic usage and drills followed by 2-man drills and applying techniques on the fly. But that's really a teaching method more than a traditional or modern method. In traditional forms there are no empty movements. Every movment represents a technique.

[Shaolinlueb]

.5

how many times do we have to discuss this? forms also teach your body how to move and generate power.

[count]

Originally posted by Shaolinlueb
.5

how many times do we have to discuss this? forms also teach your body how to move and generate power.
Sorry for bringing up a topic again, but obviously from your opinion, it hasn't been discussed enough.

There are many ways to build structure, power, and speed. Moving your hands around in the air is not one of them. A technique has to be drilled hundreds of times against resistance. (SPJ already pointed this out) How many times do you practice your form to get the same results? Will you always step in the same direction if someone is moving around you? You have to train footwork. For endurance, timing, against an opponent. How will a form teach you the proper angles, timing, and usage in various conditions? No, you'll have to convince me forms can accomplish that. Just saying something you heard isn't going to cut it.:p

[mantis108]

Hi Count,

Well, forms are like living fossils of a system, which is a bit of an oxymoron. It provides crucial clues to how the systems onces were in a "dynamic " way. More importantly, it reflects the cultural bearings and worldview of the system. In Kung Fu's case, the forms must reflect 24 essentials (4 attacks, 8 methods, 12 dynamic forms/shapes). Now there are myriad variations and combinations of the 24 essential; therefore, you have myriad of styles.

The problem is that nowadays both teachers and students of TCMA have difficulties in transmitting and grasping these concepts because there are planty of astrologists (those who would theorize and observe the stars) but not enough astronauts (those who would actually land on and touch the stars). Some just ignore the 24 essential and do whatever they please and call their system Kung Fu. :rolleyes:

Through the forms we can see evolution of Kung Fu easily back to Ming dynasty (1500s). But I don't quite agreed that it is entirely just for show. Form should be pragmatic in nature. Nowadays there are plenty, but not all styles, would take artistic license over pragmatic function. La vita loca, what can we say?

Warm regards

Mantis108

[Vash]

I practice forms. A lot. Hella much.

I defended myself several times against unwanted and uncool aggression.

Therefore, I rule.

*****es on already dead and smelly horse*

[Knifefighter]

Count-

Sounds like you and I are on the same page regarding the functionality of forms.

You can see, based on just the responses so far, a sampling of how many kung fu people believe in the practicality of doing forms to develop fighting ability.

I rest my case.

[count]

Getting there knifefighter.:)

Mantis108,

LOL, living fossels. :D
*Don't ever touch 64 palms!* With your taoist nature you'll spend the rest of your life going around in circles.;)

[gfx]

The way I see it

Why memorizing math equations and such if they are all recorded in books? This is actually arguable, since a lot of students don't memorize the equations, and instead depend on cheat sheets in exams.

Simularly, I see the new recording mediums as cheat sheets. there's nothing wrong with using them, but it really doesn't hurt to be able to memorize forms and such. Sometimes, forms are down right convenient. What happens when you don't have access to DVD players, VCRs etc? Just go through the form, pull put a techniques and two and drill.

Forms seems to be a very effecient way to memorize/transmiit knowlege. Images on screen are just images, One still need to learn the movements before they can even start to drill them, but forms hit two birds with one stone. Not only you memorize the contents, you also get used to the movements at the same time.

It is however, just a training tool. Is it possible for people to become good at fighting without learning them? Absolutely. Just like there are people who can become great artists with no academical training. Does that make academical methods invalid?

It's unhealthy to be too single sided with anything. If we can understand the reasoning, and the original purpose of forms, then it's not difficult to understand its values. In the same logic, it also makes the stupidity of people that do only forms very clear.

[Sim Koning]

sigh... yet another subject that has been debated to death.


Forms are primarily a coordination exercise. You do not really need to learn forms to remember techniques. Styles like BJJ and Submission wrestling have just as many techniques and yet they are able to remember them in a fight, where it counts. Forms are not for learning how to fight, they are for fluidity of motion, agility, flexibility etc... The low stances build leg strength and endurance, the tightly chambered fists at the sides promote good posture. Many of the southern forms have isometric and breathing exorcises built in to them. There are other ways to train these things, but forms have roled them all in to one exorcise.

Forms are not necessary to become a good fighter, but they are an art form in and of themselves and enjoyable to learn for many martial artists including myself. The weapons forms are very fun to learn. They have a beauty and artistic quality much like dancing.

I have found that most people that have a great disdain for forms or katas are not very good at them to begin with. You can be very bad at forms and still become a good fighter though, but that does not mean that people who choose to practice them are wasting there time.

[scotty1]

The form is a part of our system, but it is not assigned a disproportionate amount of importance, assuming you want to learn to fight. In fact, if a student wanted to be trained up for a full-contact competition in 6 months time, form would not be a priority in what he he was taught.

However, I do find that when I put a few minutes into doing the form each day, I find free-wrestling 'easier'. The movement, the shape is there. So it's not essential, but I find it smooths me out a bit.

:D

Also, there ARE the health benefits, which contribute indirectly to fighting ability. After a hard neigung conditioning session, the form is lovely... :cool:

PLUS, while it doesn't teach your body to generate power in the same ay hitting something does, it does help ingrain whole body movement, everything starting and finishing at the same time.

Not very well explained, but definitely something I have experienced.

[Becca]

Originally posted by Knifefighter
Count-

Sounds like you and I are on the same page regarding the functionality of forms.

You can see, based on just the responses so far, a sampling of how many kung fu people believe in the practicality of doing forms to develop fighting ability.

I rest my case.
When you go t o school, you are taught to write. When you further your eduction, you are taught how to write like the bygone masters. This was not so everyone would write just like Hemmingway, but to help teach a concept. It is usuall more effective to learn from experience.

How do you teach this lesson to a group of people after the fighter they are trying to emulate is dead? Especially if he/she died long before the students were even a twinkle in thier daddy's eye? Writtings are nice, but they don't show you what it looked like. Videos could show you, but not correct it if you get it wrong. There for, a video or a book would help you to remember, or to mimic the style you are trying to learn. But I think we all argree that looking at a book about punching will not make one a better puncher. Shadow boxing can help, though.;) :)

[Kaitain(UK)]

I do my form because I enjoy it. No need to justify it beyond that.

If I only wanted to know how to fight, I wouldnt do forms. I'd spend all my time hitting a bag and a sparring partner using as few techniques as possible. It wouldn't be an art, but it would work in a fight.

Pretty sad waste of time to spend the last 20 years training martial arts just to fight and then to walk away from them whenever possible. I'd feel like I'd wasted my time if the only benefit I got from my training was being able to fight.

Health - interesting that you would think that there's no health benefit to a form. So opening the joints, moving through your full range of movement, relaxing into your body and removing tension and concentrating on pure movement isn't of benefit? What about mentally - do you discount meditation as being useful to one's health? Spiritually? What about posture improvement? All of these things can be gained through core stability training, meditation, pilates, all kinds of different activities. I choose to get them through taiji.

Do I train to apply my taiji? Yes of course - I spar, I do heavy bag work, I do pad work.

Have I applied taiji in the real world (i.e. a fight)? Yes I have - and the most succesful times have been when I walked away without fighting.

Maybe I just have different goals.

[Sim Koning]

well said

[Kristoffer]

This is a form:

I start working on the heavy bag, and decide to drill my: ''two straight punch followed by low roundhouse''. And: ''jab, elbow, knee''

I drill these combinations for 20 min. each time with as much force I can manage, as fast and proper that I can while still controlling my balance.
This itself is a form. It's a number of techniques that is put in a combination or can be broken down to one movement. (just a knee attack, or just the jab). These techs aren't bad just because you do them in the air, but to teach the body how to do them correctly you have to spend time actually doing them - With bags or people. But if you only focus on kicking the bag you'r kick might become hard, but your balance might be p1ss poor. So by working on these movements over and over again, the techs will get better.

That's a form

[Kaitain(UK)]

In Karate it would be called 'Waza' rather than "Kata" - they are distinct and different.

A waza is just a technique or set of techniques, a kata is training something more (principles of movement for instance)

I would call what you mentioned a technique drill - just different definitions I guess.

[Sim Koning]

@kristoffer

no... that's a kicboxing drill.

[count]

I'm starting to see a pattern here. the people who believe forms help you learn to fight, don't want to discuss it. Maybe you feel I insulted your methods? Maybe I *****ed your bubble? I assure you, I did not mean to offend anyone. As you may already know, I train in "Traditional" Chinese Martial Arts" primarily for the past 30 years. I have had experience in martial arts from other countries, but my training follows traditional methods.

There are many aspects to my training. If all I wanted to do was fight professionally, I would obviously spend more time at the gym. Pumping weights, running, sparring. There is a obviously a difference in preparing for a career as a fighter and just learning to defend yourself should a situation arise.

Forms are as much a part of my training as anything else. At some point when I leave my teacher and go out and teach on my own, I will be teaching the system he taught me. But it's the method he taught me in that I believe in, not the forms he showed me.

Kristoffer,
I'm not talking about the difference between sets, forms, patterns. Even in the Chinese culture of learning they distinguish between Ta Lu and Forms. What most English speaking people think of a form is actually a number of forms strung together as a routine. You are correct that those combinations and combination training are forms. But when you move to the bag, the training becomes something else.

Kaitain(UK):
I think you know what I'm talking about, so I'll put it this way. "Traditional" training involves nei gung, chi kung, and wei gung. You can focus on these aspects in your standing and forms training, but they are not the primary purpose or result. If you want to open your joints, increase your flexibility, remove tension, do yoga.:p If you want to learn to fight there are other methods in traditional training that are for that. As far as spirituality, that's part of everyone's personal path. It takes a certain character to put so much time in something you hope to never use.

Becca,
If you want to write books or make movies, the important thing is to have the experience to tell about.

Sam,
Maybe debated to death, but as you can see, many people don't have an idea of why they learn forms. As I have said, and in agreement with you, there are many things you can take from forms, but their primary purpose is to pass on the history and flavor of someone's past lineage. I have found that people that have disdain for fighting as part of their training or the hard boring basic work necessary to learning martial arts, are to weak or not very good at it.

gfx,
I hear what you are saying (almost). You sound like an artist to me. There is a difference between understanding and being able to communicate something. Their is a difference when a person does a form who does not understand its basic meaning. It's important to make a personal expression, but it's empty without an having gone through the actual training.

[Kaitain(UK)]

Thanks for the reply Count - I just felt you were being a bit harsh. :)

Yoga sucks and you cant fight with it :) Health is a side effect of correct martial training - I strongly believe that. I took what you said to mean that there werent any health beenfits other than being active - I took issue with it :)

Too many smileys. :D

[Becca]

Originally posted by count
Becca,
If you want to write books or make movies, the important thing is to have the experience to tell about.

Lost me on this one? I was using the book/writting example, because forms at one time were the equivilant to text books. Pretty much all crafts were taught this way in illiterate sosieties. This didn't make the people dumb, they just didn't know how to read for one reason or another.



I'm not talking about the difference between sets, forms, patterns. Even in the Chinese culture of learning they distinguish between Ta Lu and Forms. What most English speaking people think of a form is actually a number of forms strung together as a routine. You are correct that those combinations and combination training are forms. But when you move to the bag, the training becomes something else.
You move the form to the bag and you get drills. This is like reading a chapter about how to fight form a modern book, going over it repetedly step by step with one's teacher, then going out and trying it on your own. Yes, this process can skip step one and even step two, but that doesn't meen everyone who doesn't skip those steps is actually deluding themselves about what they are doing. More like acknowledging were their roots are from.

[count]

Originally posted by Kaitain(UK)
Thanks for the reply Count - I just felt you were being a bit harsh. :)

Yoga sucks and you cant fight with it :) Health is a side effect of correct martial training - I strongly believe that. I took what you said to mean that there werent any health beenfits other than being active - I took issue with it :)

Too many smileys. :D
No Worries,
I just meant there is nothing healthy about getting beat up :( or hitting your body against hard things :eek: but of course traditional training covers more than that :cool: Sorry if I came off a bit harsh :( I hope it didn't make you to :mad:

[count]

Originally posted by Becca
Lost me on this one? I was using the book/writting example, because forms at one time were the equivilant to text books. Pretty much all crafts were taught this way in illiterate sosieties. This didn't make the people dumb, they just didn't know how to read for one reason or another.I just meant whether you're writing a text book or a novel, if you don't write from your own experience, make it your own so to speak, it is empty and meaningless. As far as the way things were taught 100's of years before to an illiterate, one can only speculate. I'm guessing, if you can't spell, you can't write.;)

[Becca]

HEY! I spell phoeneticly, allright!:mad: ;) :D

[Ray Pina]

I'm not a big fan of forms and I think Jess O, who just visted our class could understand why I feel that way.

Take taiji. How many people know the actual applications? .... I'll ask again, the actual applications?

So you have all these people doing a form real slow and calling it taiji. An application has to be tested against a resisting foe in order to truly understand it. And if you have the opportunity in your training to do that, why would you spend 45 minutes doing cloud hands back and forth when you could put gear on and use it against someone shooting in on your legs?

Well, you might do it to train keeping a straight back, an empty mind and circulate your energy .... Count I'm very surprised to hear that you don't find any health benefits associated with MA being that you play Ba Gua. Walking the circle slowly, holding the postures and twisting in, step by step, that gets my $hit running.

I've been doing that for like 10 minutes and then going right into San Ti ..... my stomach problem is gone, girls are saying my skin and hair is awesome -- whatever that means -- and life is generally much better.

I've learned a lot this past two months.

[tug]

.01 (on original post)


Well, if I may, I for one am sick and f@cking tired of this topic, which has become, as Vash-san said, a dead and smelly horse.

Either train or don't train. Don't like forms? Think they're useless?
Then get out of the way so I can get my work done. Ever hear of KINESIOLOGY? No? Look it up. This is what form work is for.

[Kristoffer]

Sim Koning

No, that's a form :)
And the techniques can be found in almost every traditional CMA, so I don't know why it would make it kickboxing.

count

I was trying to get my point across that a form is just any sets of movements, even if based on very simple techs like those I made up. Many people thinks forms are exotic weird techs that are to hard to pull of in a fight, when infact alot of forms contains VERY simple movements like - block, punch, knees etc etc.
I both agree and disagree on that it's something else when done with the bag. Is it not the same movements? Is it not the same techs?

[count]

Originally posted by tug
.01 (on original post)


Well, if I may, I for one am sick and f@cking tired of this topic, which has become, as Vash-san said, a dead and smelly horse.

Either train or don't train. Don't like forms? Think they're useless?
Then get out of the way so I can get my work done. Ever hear of KINESIOLOGY? No? Look it up. This is what form work is for.
Point, set and match. BTW, show me one place where I said I don't like forms or I think they're useless. But after 30 years of study in CMA and 16 years married to a Physical Therapist, I think I have a good idea of what exercise is all about. If you think you're getting it from doing your forms, than do your forms. But you are missing the point of your training and you're missing the point of this post.

BTW, Ray, I didn't say I did not find any health benefit either. Just that it is not the primary reason to train in martial arts. Just like forms are not the primary method of learning to fight. Glad your making progress and give my regards to Mr. Chan

[tug]

But you are missing the point of your training

No, I'm not. Form work is part of the curriculum. Everyone has their own reasons for doing what they do, usually because it makes them happy.


and you're missing the point of this post.

How so? My 2 cents, as they say.

For the record, my remarks were made as a general statement to whomever might read them, they were not intended for anyone in particular.


Point, set and match

You win!

[count]

Originally posted by tug

How so? My 2 cents, as they say.
The point is many people have commented on this forum and in recent threads in particular, what they think forms are for in their training. The point is some people mistakenly believe forms are a way to learn to fight. They are not.


For the record, my remarks were made as a general statement to whomever might read them, they were not intended for anyone in particular.
I thought the record was clear when your wrote,

Originally posted by tug
.01 (on original post)


Well, if I may, I for one am sick and f@cking tired of this topic, which has become, as Vash-san said, a dead and smelly horse.

Either train or don't train. Don't like forms? Think they're useless?
Then get out of the way so I can get my work done. Ever hear of KINESIOLOGY? No? Look it up. This is what form work is for.
If you weren't addressing the post or the topic, what else than? Who were you asking these questions, or are the only rhetoric you heard someone say and thought it fit your idea of what forms are for?

[Ray Pina]

Count, sorry, I noticed you clarified that point a little further up but only read your original post, some of the first page and then skimmed through the rest.

I'll give Master Chan a shout out for you. It's been a long time.

Yea, I've made some leaps and bounds especially in the past two months. I now understand what internal is, and its now a pleasure to do the standing where before it was torture and I've learned to regulate, my, uh, expenditures (lets call them).

All of this, combined with getting deeper into my master's art, it's really improved my fighting but I'm not .... well, I am getting antsy but I'm going to trust my teacher and wait. I won't lose again and put myself out there for ridule because I'm now associated with my master and his school and need to do things right. You've seen some of his stuff. When this crazy 30 year old who's not scared to fight gets that .... it should be interesting.

Hope all is well on your end.
Ray

[count]

Ray,

Why don't you tell the forum what your teacher thinks about forms.
:D
He's way more radical in his thinking than I. ;)

[Ray Pina]

The thing I love most about my master, even at 64 now, he doesn't want to talk to martial artists that come visit .... he doesn't take them to his office, or sits in his chair and directs the class -- he puts the gloves on:)

[tug]

The point is some people mistakenly believe forms are a way to learn to fight. They are not.

I don't disagree, at least with the fact that many are dissolusioned initially. But I don't agree that form work is not an integral part of training to fight, hence the kinesiology reference. They will not TEACH you how to fight, but they will help train and condition your body.


If you weren't addressing the post or the topic, what else than? Who were you asking these questions, or are the only rhetoric you heard someone say and thought it fit your idea of what forms are for?

I was addressing the topic, the questions were rhetorical (not meant to be answered) to affirm my beliefs.

And I don't have an IDEA of what forms are for, I know what they are for because I understand the nature of TCMA and its immeasurable value in training one to know oneself, and through that, to know others. I don't believe we should just throw them out the window.

[gfx]

Count:

I was trying to argue the validity of using forms as a training method in modern days.

I tried to avoid talking about all the other aspects of forms, i.e strength, coordination, theory and methods because I can see alternative methods that are more specialized for all of them. I have also been asking myself the validity of the forms recently, especially when I teach beginners. I find that teaching them drills and simple techniques give them the ability to fight faster (way faster, not even a comparison ). So I'm starting to think that maybe forms should only be taught when people have enough of an understanding of basic combat.

I however, find forms useful for myself. When I need to think of a new concept or a new technique/drill to teach, I can go back and pull one out of the forms I know. I find it a very useful tool for mental organization. Something that is much faster than video records.

[tug]

I tried to avoid talking about all the other aspects of forms, i.e strength, coordination, theory and methods because I can see alternative methods that are more specialized for all of them. I have also been asking myself the validity of the forms recently, especially when I teach beginners. I find that teaching them drills and simple techniques give them the ability to fight faster (way faster, not even a comparison ).


I however, find forms useful for myself. When I need to think of a new concept or a new technique/drill to teach, I can go back and pull one out of the forms I know. I find it a very useful tool for mental organization. Something that is much faster than video records.






Exactly.

[Hua Lin Laoshi]

Think about the word FORM. So what would you learn from a form? Correct form. Should you just blast away at a heavy bag before you learn the correct way to punch or kick?

How many injuries before you get it right (hopefully no permanent ones). When I was young I had a friend who lifted weights. He told me he screwed up his wrists lifting heavy weights incorrectly. Maybe he should have practiced his FORM with just the bar first.

Martial Art or Martial Science?

Forms teach the art of fighting, not just the mechanics. That's why there are so many styles out there. Individual expression, an art form.

Some are only interested in martial science. They train a few basic techniques and then use them in sparring.

Some like the martial art. They like to study the more elaborate moves and distance themselves from the cookie-cutter, if A then B types. They express their movement in fighting.

So what we have here are the artists, pro forms, and the scientists, anti-forms. The scientists believe the moves in forms are too fancy. The artists believe without forms you lose the flavor and you're just a robot going through the motions.

To each his own but the smart player will balance the two.

[tug]

Think about the word FORM. So what would you learn from a form?

Maybe I'm strangely genetically predisposed to this, but the first thing that ALWAYS comes to mind when I think of the word form is MOVEMENT and the BODY - the BODY in MOTION. Not that one wouldn't think the same when it comes to san da or something similar, but we all know one cannot crawl, walk, fly or fight before learning how. Face it, all MAs, whether traditional or modern, have some kind of "moves" or "techniques" to learn in order to understand and use said MAs. I would venture to say one might even call those "forms". The way I look at it, no matter what you do, if you are studying a prescribed set of movements or techniques, you are studying a kind of "form".


They express their movement in fighting.

He11, I would even say fighting can be a "form" of fighting!

:rolleyes:

[PangQuan]

When I think of the word "form" I see the position the body is in during the highth of a specific technique, ie; leg extended and arms up in defence for a proper side kick. Now a comination of forms, I would classify as a sequence. I think in todays modern era we have adapted the word "form" to meet with this connection of forms. It is very generic and can mean different things to different people. As well as styles. "Form" such as the form of a mountain or the form of a tree.

[tug]

I was always taught that a "style" is the art itself and a "form" is the art within a particular style. But...

You can style a form to your liking.

You can form a style by taking bits from others.

(ok, now I've said both words too many times, they sound funny)

[Ray Pina]

If we're being technical, the word "form" is very important. I am very mindful or what FORM my shield is talking when attacked by a hook or uppercut, when a kick is coming in straight our rounded. The training I do is to program certain responses that come automatically from a strong structure (FORM) and how to maintain that structure even though it's in motion .... and how to adapt and change one strong form to another strong form, etc., etc.

But let's not bull$hit ourselves. This is not what "form" means when 9 out of 10 martial artists get together and discuss form. This is the problem we have .... lots of people purposely fooling themselves to satisify their ego.

Today, form means that guy who shows up at the tournament dresses in the black Kung Fu uniform with red trim carrying a big bag and a Kwon Do. He stands to the side of the gym and warms up doing his forms all flashy for that hour or two before the comp and we all see him and then he does his empty hand routine and its very good and we wins a medal. Then he takes out the broadsword from the bag and does his weapons form and maybe wins again and then swings the Kwon Do around because it was actually a tie and had to do another weapons performance.

Then, after this guy walked around the place for 4 hours with his chest out, he quietly packs up his $hit and you see him taking his goodbye pi$$ while you're in the bathroom putting on your cup and taking your last minute nervous jitters **** before fighitng.

That's what forms is.

[MasterKiller]

Why shouldn't a guy be proud for putting in a ****load of hours working on a weapon form and then performing well in competition? Or for winning in Talou?

It takes a lot of time and commitment to get a decent level of skill in those areas. And then to have the nuts to get up in front of the world and display those skills is commendable.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by count
Traditional training obviously has different methods of fight training. Training for strength, power, speed, endurance, overall conditioning come from specific training, not forms. (Feel free to discuss these.) Fighting within the context of the class, outside the class with others, in tournaments and competitions are also part of the training.

Some commercial schools probably have a problem with this either because of insurance liability or just keeping students who would otherwise walk away from the hard work and pain of learning martial arts. If all you are learning is forms, you will not be able to learn martial arts.


sparring was frowned upon in japanese styles until the late 1920's, and was still frowned upon by some after that. One notable man - ginchin funakoshi, thought that it downgraded the art. I've hear similar about some chinese styles. How was fighting a part of such training if it was frowned upon?

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by MasterKiller
Why shouldn't a guy be proud for putting in a ****load of hours working on a weapon form and then performing well in competition? Or for winning in Talou?

It takes a lot of time and commitment to get a decent level of skill in those areas. And then to have the nuts to get up in front of the world and display those skills is commendable.

you should be.

[MasterKiller]

Originally posted by SevenStar
you should be. I should be? Na...I'm not that guy. I hardly ever place in a forms comp. But for the people who do put in the time, they should be.

[Ray Pina]

He absolutely should be!

But often times these are the same cats that confuse being very good at doing forms with being a MARTIAL artist. Forget what would happen if that aluminum foil swinging guy was handed a Shinei and asked to fence with my master's 100lbs daughter... I'm talking what can that person do to prevent a Seven Star, a Knifefighter, a Carl M. from going up to him after the competition and taking his medal, taking his bag of goodies, going up and planting a big wet one right on his girls lips.

What if these guys weren't cool. What would that guy do? What could he do if they pushed the matter?

This guy of course is fictional, but we all know him and I'd go so far as to suggest he posts here.

[MasterKiller]

So what. That doesn't invalidate their training. If their focus isn't on fighting, why should you thumb your nose at them?

[Ray Pina]

I'm not thumbing my nose at anyone. Count asked me to post what my teacher thinks of forms. I can't do that. I can only post what I think of forms. I think I did that.

I can apreciate a good form, especially drunken boxing forms. I can apreciate gymnastics, high-diving, great surfing, good painting .... what do all of these have in common? They are not fighting.

I'm trying to break through the bull$hit. People keep validating form as if it is a means to a fighting ends .... it is not. In fact, if you really want to have some fighting skill you'd be better spent spending 4 hours a week drilling lightly with boxing gloves and head gear than spending 14 hours doing form.

These debates are kind of rediculous because the answers are self evident. Go into any martial art school that is heavy into forms and ask to fight .... see what happens.

Then go into a school that doesn't do forms and ask to fight.

One is happy to have you. The other will start talking you to death. Guess which is which?

[PangQuan]

Some times that guy will also place in the sparring section of the comp. Its not unheard of to be a fighter and an artist. Its like saying your not going to go watch movies anymore because its all make believe. I would laugh my @ss off if someone thought that their sparring made them superior, then stepped, and got creamed. I am sure it has happened before. I dont do comp at all. Does that mean that i suck? Hmm. one could assume such, but does their belief validate fact? No. I dont do comp because frankly I dont like to show off, I get stage fright, and Its not important in my life to show others what i know, its more important to me to really know what I feel I know.

[red5angel]

I'm trying to break through the bull$hit. People keep validating form as if it is a means to a fighting ends .... it is not

I like what you're saying for the most part Ray. I think the problem is that some people don't think forms are invalid as a method of training. I'm not even sure I don't agree with them. I know there are probably better ways to train to fight, but I'm not sure I don't consider forms a valid point of training of one sort or another.

[PangQuan]

Originally posted by Ray Pina
I'm not thumbing my nose at anyone. Count asked me to post what my teacher thinks of forms. I can't do that. I can only post what I think of forms. I think I did that.

I can apreciate a good form, especially drunken boxing forms. I can apreciate gymnastics, high-diving, great surfing, good painting .... what do all of these have in common? They are not fighting.

I'm trying to break through the bull$hit. People keep validating form as if it is a means to a fighting ends .... it is not. In fact, if you really want to have some fighting skill you'd be better spent spending 4 hours a week drilling lightly with boxing gloves and head gear than spending 14 hours doing form.

These debates are kind of rediculous because the answers are self evident. Go into any martial art school that is heavy into forms and ask to fight .... see what happens.

Then go into a school that doesn't do forms and ask to fight.

One is happy to have you. The other will start talking you to death. Guess which is which?

I see your point now. It is valid.

[PangQuan]

Originally posted by red5angel
I like what you're saying for the most part Ray. I think the problem is that some people don't think forms are invalid as a method of training. I'm not even sure I don't agree with them. I know there are probably better ways to train to fight, but I'm not sure I don't consider forms a valid point of training of one sort or another.

We can put it like this, Forms definately help give you an edge when it comes to repetition of techniques for live combat. While sparring gives you an edge when it comes to "feeling the flow" of live combat. Point is both sides are right.

[MasterKiller]

This conversation just reminds me of that guy at every party...you know, that guy that spends the whole night talking about fighting or UFC, bugs everyone to spar and then gets mad when no one will because it's a party. He usually ends up starting a fight with some poor sap so he can demonstrate to the rest of the party how superior his training really is, then doesn't understand why all the chicks are ****ed at him.

This guy of course is fictional, but we all know him and I'd go so far as to suggest he posts here.

[red5angel]

the problem with these arguments is that you always have to put perspective on it.

Some people are training to fight professionally, some people arent' training to fight at all.

Some people study an art taht does a lot of forms, some people study an art that doesn't use forms at all.

Some people belive the martial arts is about building character, some people think its about destroying your opponent.

We could go on and on and on and on ad naseum but who's right?

[PangQuan]

Ive met "that guy" before. I was 20 at a party, and this dude wanted to do exactly that. He ended up being a drunk fool, started a fight with this dude, who was mackin on some chick. Dude got up and smashed "that guy" into the wall, then threw him through the coffee table. It was d@mn funny. He was so ****ed off all he could do is get up and leave, everyone was laughing at him for being such a jerk then getting served. Other dude just went back to his mack game. Needless to say his game went well after that.

[Ray Pina]

PangQuan, I highly agree with you. In fact, when I was a kid I always competed in forms, weapon forms and kumite .... most of my trophies were for sparring, though I thought my forms were good. I just tended to be a little chubby as a kid. I won a few trophies for weapons forsm because at the time (late 70s early 80s) I was the only kid my age:)

I'll also never compete in a "traditional" tournament again after getting tossed from the Fe Hung for "illegal face contact" in both sparring and Chi Sau ... you could hit the side of the head but not square ... so I should hook a 250 lber (no weight limit) charging in:rolleyes:

Now I'm interested in San Da and MMA even more so.

.....

Master Killer, that guy at the party you speak of is a d1ck. You should stay away from him especially if he's been drinking and there's girls around. But then again, you should be able to grab him firmly by the shoulder (but politely) and tell him, "Relax, we're trying to have a good time" and because of your training, that's all it should take, right?

[PangQuan]

Originally posted by red5angel
the problem with these arguments is that you always have to put perspective on it.

Some people are training to fight professionally, some people arent' training to fight at all.

Some people study an art taht does a lot of forms, some people study an art that doesn't use forms at all.

Some people belive the martial arts is about building character, some people think its about destroying your opponent.

We could go on and on and on and on ad naseum but who's right?

I would say that we are all right, seeing as how each of us train for many varied reasons, all of those reasons obviously in existance cause we are using them. Diversity, its what makes the world go round.

[MasterKiller]

I've got no illusions about what I do. I can fight, but I'm no killer. I can do forms, but I'm no champ. But that's all you get when you put in 10 hours a week, which is about all I can muster right now.

[red5angel]

MK made a good point about perspective I think is rarely considered as well. Ray and Ross' guys al train to compete in sports, something that requires more precise training. One who trains to defend themselves may not necessarily require that type of intense training. I'm not saying it wouldn't help of course, I'm just saying it's not necessary to be a "good" fighter.

[PangQuan]

just thought i would provide a link to a "real" kung fu master. You can see his technique in play.

http://www.locomotion.com/albums/album12/renstim2.jpg

[red5angel]

sorry pangquan, he would never get that off in a real fight ;P

[PangQuan]

LOL, but its proof, look, I have a picture. C'mon he has mystical skills. Dont you believe me?

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Hua Lin Laoshi
Think about the word FORM. So what would you learn from a form? Correct form. Should you just blast away at a heavy bag before you learn the correct way to punch or kick?

or should you do them both in conjunction? you are shown how to punch, then you drill it on pads? as your feeder, I am able to make corrections as necessary while you are hitting the pad.


How many injuries before you get it right (hopefully no permanent ones). When I was young I had a friend who lifted weights. He told me he screwed up his wrists lifting heavy weights incorrectly. Maybe he should have practiced his FORM with just the bar first.

indeed he should have. not knowing what you are doing can get you hurt. however, knowing what you are doing (or thinking you do) and trying it to an extreme will get you hurt too - for example, the guy who knows proper lifting form, but try to lift too heavy and tear their muscles, or the trained ma who has never sparred and steps into a ring fight.


Martial Art or Martial Science?

Forms teach the art of fighting, not just the mechanics. That's why there are so many styles out there. Individual expression, an art form.

Some are only interested in martial science. They train a few basic techniques and then use them in sparring.

Some like the martial art. They like to study the more elaborate moves and distance themselves from the cookie-cutter, if A then B types. They express their movement in fighting.

do you think that the martial science types do not express their movement in fighting?

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by PangQuan
Ive met "that guy" before. I was 20 at a party, and this dude wanted to do exactly that. He ended up being a drunk fool, started a fight with this dude, who was mackin on some chick. Dude got up and smashed "that guy" into the wall, then threw him through the coffee table. It was d@mn funny. He was so ****ed off all he could do is get up and leave, everyone was laughing at him for being such a jerk then getting served. Other dude just went back to his mack game. Needless to say his game went well after that.

my bad dude, I hope it didn't hurt to bad. Just so you know though, yeah, smashing you into the wall did help my game. she was impressed, thought i a badass with street cred and, well, I won't talk about the rest of the night :)

[Shaolinlueb]

Originally posted by count
Sorry for bringing up a topic again, but obviously from your opinion, it hasn't been discussed enough.

There are many ways to build structure, power, and speed. Moving your hands around in the air is not one of them. A technique has to be drilled hundreds of times against resistance. (SPJ already pointed this out) How many times do you practice your form to get the same results? Will you always step in the same direction if someone is moving around you? You have to train footwork. For endurance, timing, against an opponent. How will a form teach you the proper angles, timing, and usage in various conditions? No, you'll have to convince me forms can accomplish that. Just saying something you heard isn't going to cut it.:p

not necissarly. if you get too into the drill of things, when something doesnt go right you will be confused. so you have to mix it up. you jsut cant drill the technique how it looks in the form over and over.
its more applying what you learn in forms. some people just choose to do the drills and avoid forms all together. you can learn techniques and applications from forms. but you learn by doing. a good teacher can show you that. a good teacher can tell you why forms are good. but that same teacher will tell you that you cant just do forms to become a good fighter. that teacher will tell you have to fight and practice different drills to become a good fighter.

[ewallace]

Sevenstar couldn't smash anyone thru a wall made in 8th grade shop class, and the only coffee table would actually be part of a little girls' tea set. He won't talk about the rest of the night because Righty got too drunk.

[FatherDog]

Whoa! When did ewallace get back?

[red5angel]

lol! I think it was a drive by posting!

[SevenStar]

wherethehell you been, man?

[ewallace]

Merde kinda hit the ventilator around these parts and...okay no more excuses. I didn't like Red5, and KC Elbows hurt my feelings, so I put my tail between my legs, got my toys, and ran home.

[red5angel]

don't like me!!! :eek: Last time I heard you were trying to figure out a way to get me to marry you, in massechusettes somewhere....

[PangQuan]

Originally posted by ewallace
Sevenstar couldn't smash anyone thru a wall made in 8th grade shop class, and the only coffee table would actually be part of a little girls' tea set. He won't talk about the rest of the night because Righty got too drunk.

LOL, its a good routine, gets you in the sack every time. My turn next Sevenstar.

[ewallace]

I knew Red5 was a midget.


Sorry for the thread jack. I have to get warmed up around here again.

[red5angel]

is that what turns you on about me ew ;) big boy...smooches.....

[Hua Lin Laoshi]

"do you think that the martial science types do not express their movement in fighting?"

At the risk of stereotyping, my opinion of the martial science types is that they limit themselves to very few tried and true moves and don't care to risk variation. They have no interest in displaying any unique 'style' and seem to prefer to stick with basic, straight up fighting.

Style fighting, to me, would be more elaborate moves like drunken boxing or mimicing animals. It's easier to defend when you know the moves that will be used against you. The artist will paint a more varied fighting picture.

I'm not saying one is right, wrong or better. Just pointing out my view of the difference.

Martial Science when the stakes are high with a skilled opponent but whip out the Martial Art when you can afford to play a little and be creative in your azz whooping.

For me, Martial Art is more fun. Martial Science is too clinical and bores me.

Just my opinion.

[SevenStar]

expression is everywhere in fighting. Even among the "tried and true" techniques, compare tyson to lewis. They know the exact same techniques, but look at the way that each of them employ them - is that not expression? Also, check out bjj and judo - PLENTY of expression there.

[Hua Lin Laoshi]

????????????

Compared to Kung Fu western boxing is BORING!!!

I'm not saying they have no expression, just that compared to Chinese Kung Fu or even Karate it's just a small handfull of moves. BORING!!!

Why do you think they call it the sweet science? Ever hear of Boxing Art?

Much more fun taking out legs, twisting arms and raining elbows.

A couple of punches with cushy gloves on, BORING!!!

How much flair, or art, can you put into a left jap - right hook?

BORING!!!

"compare tyson to lewis"
So, one is SLIGHTLY less boring than the other.

Of course it is a little bit more interesting than a couple of guys hugging on the ground for 15 minutes. :D

[SevenStar]

yeah, maybe butterfly kicks, tornado kicks and kip ups are more fun to watch than someone getting the utter crap knocked out of them... :p

[PangQuan]

Too bad old greek boxing is not still around that would have been some neat stuff to watch. I bet you it was more akin to kung fu than modern western boxing.

[wiz cool c]

I know from Tai Chi training that forms along with standing does help your push hands.

[count]

You can't learn to fight with push hands either. :p :eek:

[Hua Lin Laoshi]

Hell yes, "someone getting the utter crap knocked out of them" with a butterfly kick would be much more exciting but I'm not holding my breath waiting for it to happen anytime soon.

Mixing some slick moves together to take someone out is more 'artistic', IMO, than a one punch knockout.

You like the one punch knockouts, fine. I like to jack joints and draw blood. One punch knockouts are clinical, not artistic.

Sometimes I think you argue just for the sake of arguing. Let's try this analogy:

Two painters, one only uses 2 colors and paints only straight lines.

The other uses a variety of colors and paints lines, circles, arcs, etc.

Which one is limited in his artistic expression?

If you say the first CAN be artistic then you're missing the point, or arguing for the sake of arguing. You'll never convince me that the first can be as creative and artistic as the other.

[joedoe]

Originally posted by count
You can't learn to fight with push hands either. :p :eek:

True, but I see things like push hands and chi sao as probably third best behind sparring and drilling.

[count]

Hua Lin Laoshi,

These things aren't as black and white as you put them.

joedoe,

Useful, but again, if that's all you do, you'll make bad habits. Leave openings. You fight the way you train.

I don't disagree that all these things are important in training. But it's important to know what you are training for.

[joedoe]

Originally posted by count
Hua Lin Laoshi,

These things aren't as black and white as you put them.

joedoe,

Useful, but again, if that's all you do, you'll make bad habits. Leave openings. You fight the way you train.

I don't disagree that all these things are important in training. But it's important to know what you are training for.

Yup, agreed.

[Shaolinlueb]

Originally posted by count
You can't learn to fight with push hands either. :p :eek:

you can learn a hell of a lot from push hands. and silk reeling.
but like someone said, dont limit yourself to thats all you do. you see a taichi master doing something else.

[SPJ]

As previously said. Forms are catalogues or indexing the moves for references.

It certainly would take a while to do 37 to 48 moves in a row. How about 88 or 108 moves? There are chapters or segments or Duan, too.

The moves usually have names of 4 Chinese characters, sometime 7 characters or more.

When I was young, I was very quick to learn the single move.

White Crane Spreading Wing. Shoo shoo.

6 Sealings 4 closings. Shoo shoo.

Buddha Warrior Pounding Morters. Shoo Peng Shoo.

The form, I have to do over and over to remember the sequence right. Of course I have cheat sheets or Q cards. I memorized the first Chinese Character in each posture or Shi.

Later the teacher found out. He said no. I had to recite the whole names in sequence. I just could not do it right away.

The teacher said think of it like poems or songs. I pitched the names with a music I like and I started to sing it. It worked for me.

Qi Shi Kai Tai Ji. Jing Gong Dau Zui. Lan Za Yi. Liu Feng Si Bi. Dan Bian. --

Men. Not only did I remember the moves in Toulu. I remembered the names, too.

Do I need a book or vcd or DVd ? nope. After 25 years, I still remember all the moves and the names.

My point is that forms are moves in logical sequence. So how I got "imprinted" with them.

No books, No DVD player. No problem. Grasshopper. I have everything right in my mind and my body. It is like a song. It is like a poem.

I know one day you will learn all the moves from me. You do not need to write or video anything. If you know all the moves in the form. If you know the form, then you also know all the moves in the form.

All in due time.

What it Tai Ji Quan? What is Lao Jia Yi Lu or Pao Zui Er Lu?

What is "running steps single whip"?

I have all the chapters and the words in the forms or segments of many moves in logical order.

There is no book to read. There is no Bible to flip pages to read the verses in chapters and books.

There are the form, the moves and you.

:D

[count]

Qi Shi Kai Tai Ji. Jing Gong Dau Zui. Lan Za Yi. Liu Feng Si Bi. Dan Bian.
Bai He Liang Chi, Lou Hsi Ao Bu, I hear ya brother. Sing it.:D

[Vash]

Originally posted by SevenStar
sparring was frowned upon in japanese styles until the late 1920's, and was still frowned upon by some after that. One notable man - ginchin funakoshi, thought that it downgraded the art. I've hear similar about some chinese styles. How was fighting a part of such training if it was frowned upon?

Indeed. And it's been reported that Motobu, with whom Funakoshi clashed ideologically and politically, owned all over Funakoshi with a nice throw.

Of course, Motobu taught one or two forms, 12 short two-man drills.

And his student, Tatsuo Shimabuku, incouraged sparring with kendo armor, as to allow greater force to be applied without fear of injury.

*coughkarateroxorscough*

It's noted, however, that forms training when used as part of an escalating scale of intensity led to improved fighting capability whilst utilizing actual technique/movement principle found within the forms.

At least, that's something which has been discussed by the more "progressive" classically-messy practitioners, as well as a bunch of smart folk, over in the Upping the Training Ante (http://forum.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=33751) thread in the JKD (http://forum.kungfumagazine.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?s=&forumid=10&pagenumber=1&sortfield=lastpost&sortorder=desc&daysprune=60&x=8&y=14) forum.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Hua Lin Laoshi
Sometimes I think you argue just for the sake of arguing.

Actually, you're right. I never expceted you to keep posting in response to my oppinion, but since you did, I kept responding.


Let's try this analogy:

Two painters, one only uses 2 colors and paints only straight lines.

The other uses a variety of colors and paints lines, circles, arcs, etc.

Which one is limited in his artistic expression?

If you say the first CAN be artistic then you're missing the point, or arguing for the sake of arguing. You'll never convince me that the first can be as creative and artistic as the other.


that's flawed in that each human mind is different. those straight lines can be drawn in all sorts of intriguing angles... I personally don't like flash that much. thai boxers rain elbows and jack joints as well. To me, watching two fighters using the same technique set in vastly different ways is way more expressive and interesting than butterfly kicks will ever be.

[Vash]

As relates to use of specific skill set to accomplish physical defense . . .

I find two advantages and two disadvantages to the classical training method:

A1: Generally unorthodox. Sometimes allows noticing holes not generally exploited by orthodox methods.

A2: Forms method of teaching sometimes allows practitioner to see variations of a given theme and allows exploration thereof at a lower intensity level before moving on to the harder stuff.

D1: Takes longer. It just takes longer using such a specific skillset as presented by classical/traditional schools to pick up and apply in the same time frame as "modern" schools.

D2: Use of solo and/or cooperative training can preclude the more difficult and necessary drilling and sparring.

Of course, I'm stuck in a classical mess, so what do I know? ;)

[Ray Pina]

Originally posted by red5angel
MK made a good point about perspective I think is rarely considered as well. Ray and Ross' guys al train to compete in sports, something that requires more precise training. One who trains to defend themselves may not necessarily require that type of intense training. I'm not saying it wouldn't help of course, I'm just saying it's not necessary to be a "good" fighter.

For the record: my master detests the word "sport" associated with martial art. For him it is "kill or be killed" and kind of looks down on what I want to do. Why would I go to fight with a BJJ who wants to rip my arm off but I can't punch him in the nose? Why go fight the San Da guy who can knee me but I can't elbow him? Everybody sets up the rules to take advantage of their own strenghts. That's why TKD doesn't allow foot catching or kicking the supporting leg.

We consider it gentlemanly not to poke the eye or kick the balls. Other than that, be my guest.

Just wanted to make that clear, because I wouldn't want to turn away a potential student of my master. We are not a sport school. I am just a student there who happens to be interested in fighting for sport and this style happens to suit me.

[SPJ]

I sing : A---, B---, C--, D-, E-, F-, G--.

The Alien said oh, English is only 26 alpa bet or A and B.

I said WRONG. Human kind derives over 10,000 words with 26 ArB.

So there are 26 moves in a form.

How many apps or words may one derive?

:confused: :D :cool:

[red5angel]

Everybody sets up the rules to take advantage of their own strenghts.


:cool:

[Knifefighter]

Originally posted by Ray Pina
For the record: my master detests the word "sport" associated with martial art. For him it is "kill or be killed" and kind of looks down on what I want to do. Why would I go to fight with a BJJ who wants to rip my arm off but I can't punch him in the nose? Why go fight the San Da guy who can knee me but I can't elbow him? That's what MMA competitions are for... so everyone gets to use their game.

[Knifefighter]

Originally posted by tug
Ever hear of KINESIOLOGY? No? Look it up. This is what form work is for. What do forms have to do with kineseology?

[red5angel]

That's what MMA competitions are for... so everyone gets to use their game.

that's not completely true.

[Becca]

Originally posted by Knifefighter
What do forms have to do with kineseology?

I have to agree. I can see how kineseology (http://www.icakusa.com/WhatisAK.html) could help your kung fu, but I see no way for forms to help it.

[omarthefish]

That was a really bad explanation for what kineseology back there on that link. *shudder* Next time try wikepedia or something. Dictionary.com or your local university course curriculum.

This quote was funny too:

Originally posted by Hua Lin Laoshi
Sometimes I think you argue just for the sake of arguing.

Actually, you're right. I never expceted you to keep posting in response to my oppinion, but since you did, I kept responding.


Let's try this analogy:

Two painters, one only uses 2 colors and paints only straight lines.

I'd like to envision a 3rd painter but this one doesn't even use colors and heck doesn't even use lines but dots...oh waitasec...that's how photographs work....

[Sim Koning]

Why would I go to fight with a BJJ who wants to rip my arm off but I can't punch him in the nose?

For the record, the Gracie family put up a $100,000 reward for anybody that could defeat them in a no rules match. The money was never taken.

MMA has proven what works and what does not via a sporting event, its just that many people out there don't like the result.

[Becca]

Originally posted by omarthefish
That was a really bad explanation for what kineseology back there on that link. *shudder* Next time try wikepedia or something. Dictionary.com or your local university course curriculum.

Worked well enough for the point I was making, i.e. how it could help forms but not the other way around. The link explained what most martial artists do anyway. If one has a week mucsle goup one trys to figure out why then how to best fix it....:rolleyes:

[David Jamieson]

Compared to Kung Fu western boxing is BORING!!!

Uh nothing personal, but you haven't ever studied or practiced western boxing have you? Because, although boring/not boring is completely subjective, I think the actual experience of doing boxing training is NOT boring.

I do Kungfu too, and it's not boring either. But ultimately, your own kungfu comes down to only a few moves that you can effectively apply with any great percentage of success.

anyway...just wanted to protest.
Also, you don't see too many "kungfu masters" beating any western boxers. :p (<< inflammatory and ridiculous statement)

[Ray Pina]

Originally posted by Sim Koning
For the record, the Gracie family put up a $100,000 reward for anybody that could defeat them in a no rules match. The money was never taken.

MMA has proven what works and what does not via a sporting event, its just that many people out there don't like the result.

Is this still on the table?

[count]

Originally posted by Knifefighter
What do forms have to do with kineseology?
I don't think Tug meant exercise kinesiology but only kinesiology in the broad sense that you move and adjust your body while learning forms. Maybe some mild aerobic effect to that but obviously only a side effect.

This has been interesting for me to hear so many opinions but I posted originally to help traditionalists understand that training in forms, while it was an important aspect of learning a system of martial arts, has nothing to do with learning to fight. There are many other training methods, some of which are unique and others that are in common across the board that teach you how to apply your system. There are also specific methods of body development that are interesting to discuss.

If you guys want to talk about the value of other systems that do not have forms in their system, or talk about your childhood hero's who you think are unbeatable (they're not), That's fine. But I have only heard a couple of guys only mention briefly some of the real CMA training in this thread and that makes me wonder if any of you on this forum know what it takes to learn them. Even Gene, who publishes a magazine about them, runs articles that are mostely application based, forms based, or historic, but I seldom see any real training articles in them. Maybe a rare one now and than. But even Gene hasn't added anything.

I even saw a spin-off thread about changing forms pop up. So I'll frame the question a bit differently to see if you understand what I'm saying. How many of you can show and explain what each movement of your form is for? If you can, can you make it work against a boxer or one of your childhood, muscle head, hero's? Do you even understand how to stick to a boxer from your forms training? Do you even understand what I mean when I discuss principles like "sticking" and "following" and where do forms teach you how to do this? For now I won't touch on strengthening and conditioning training in CMA. But can someone who thinks you can learn to fight from forms explain how forms teach these?

[David Jamieson]

count-

wouldn't you agree that forms teach structure and motion, rooting, stepping patterns, launching attacks while mobile etc etc.

One of teh key elements being correct structure. An attack delivered from a string structure developed through form is generally more powerful than an attack delivered from poor structure.

Even in boxing there is correct and incorrect ways of doing everything. elbows are kept down for somethings and allowed to move out for others depending on what is being delivered.

Forms are part of the process in other words to come to an ability to fight. the actual learning to fight comes after this in a kungfu regimen. ie: basic/form/ force feedback/live sparring/free form fighting being the progressive path of the kungfu fighter.

so forms might not directly teach fighting, but they are part and parcel to it in the long run. combos, skipping and medicine balls don't teach fighting directly either, but they augment ones ability to fight.

[omarthefish]

Originally posted by Becca
Worked well enough for the point I was making, i.e. how it could help forms but not the other way around. The link explained what most martial artists do anyway. If one has a week mucsle goup one trys to figure out why then how to best fix it....:rolleyes:

That's what I THOUGHT the link was going to be about and I disagree with that yoo BUT what I found was a site about "muscle testing". Although they were pretty sneaky and managed to completely avoid explaining specifically what that is, what they are talking about is things like you hold your hand out at arms length and make a fist and the tester presses your arm down while you try to resist with all your might. Then they do it again with you holding something that you think you may be allergic to or just mayeb is affecting you health and do it again. If your ability to resist goes down, that means that you are allergic or have issue with the item or whatever. You can use this to test for empotional problems and job choices or whatever.

Basically a load of new age crap and a monumental insult to the legitimate field of kineseology.

That website looks borderline to me. The "real" stuff IMO is when they attatch motion sensors to olypic atheletes and then use computers to analyze their motion and help them discover where it is inneficient or the high end research into orthopedics. Physical thereapists study kinesiology.

"muscle testing" is barely a legitamte field or may have some legitimacy but should really be grouped with psychology or something not kineseology.

[tug]

In general, the applied kinesiologist finds a muscle that tests weak and then attempts to determine why that muscle is not functioning properly. The practitioner will then evaluate and apply the therapy that will best eliminate the muscle weakness and help the patient.

Basically, but to the extent you can practice on yourself while training.


I don't think Tug meant exercise kinesiology but only kinesiology in the broad sense that you move and adjust your body while learning forms. Maybe some mild aerobic effect to that but obviously only a side effect.

Yes.

And sorry for being so angry, not having a good week.

[Becca]

How many of you can show and explain what each movement of your form is for?
Not as many as there should be, but still probably a lion's share.

If you can, can you make it work against a boxer or one of your childhood, muscle head, hero's?
Against a boxer? maybe. Against childhood hero? Yes. Han Solo's gerneral thing was just running screeming into crouds of stormtroopers. :D

Do you even understand how to stick to a boxer from your forms training? Do you even understand what I mean when I discuss principles like "sticking" and "following" and where do forms teach you how to do this?
Yep. Part one of learning a form is learning the basic movements. Then we do the "self-defence" version, wich is learning the application of it. Finally, we go after each other full contact, trying to keep the form as clean as possible. Last, we take the form, pick it apart and use the bits while sparring. There is no way to do this without learning how to stick and follow. :)

[count]

No fair Becca,

I think you peaked ahead. The point is, and I hope you are getting it, you mentioned a number of things you had to do besides form. It didn't stop at learning form. In my experience, you learn the other way around, ie learning the form last. Basic first--->applications--->drills--->drills with steps--->2-man drills--->applying it in free fighting--->than forms.

Doesn't anybody want to tell me how two man forms help and weapons forms are like weight training?

:p

[scotty1]

The point is, and I hope you are getting it, you mentioned a number of things you had to do besides form.

I think most people realise that you can't just stop at form. If that's your point Count, I thinking you're preaching to the choir here.

Maybe not in the US generally, but on this forum at least.

[Becca]

Originally posted by count
No fair Becca,

I think you peaked ahead. The point is, and I hope you are getting it, you mentioned a number of things you had to do besides form. It didn't stop at learning form. In my experience, you learn the other way around, ie learning the form last. Basic first--->applications--->drills--->drills with steps--->2-man drills--->applying it in free fighting--->than forms.

Doesn't anybody want to tell me how two man forms help and weapons forms are like weight training?

:p
I do not see how two-man forms are like weight training, but if you use a heavier-than usual weapon, yes it can be similar. I actually do this with my bo and nunchaku.

[count]

Originally posted by scotty1
I think most people realise that you can't just stop at form. If that's your point Count, I thinking you're preaching to the choir here.

Maybe not in the US generally, but on this forum at least.
Yes and no. The point is the OVERemphasis on forms during training, coupled with the expectations of learning to apply their martial art on the one hand. On the other hand, observations from the outside that forms training is all there is in CMA training and CMA'ists can't fight because of the way they train.

[count]

Originally posted by Becca
I do not see how two-man forms are like weight training, but if you use a heavier-than usual weapon, yes it can be similar. I actually do this with my bo and nunchaku.
Sorry Becca, the implication was supposed to be that two man forms might help learning to stick, follow, divert, adhere etc, and that weapons forms might help build strength. But keep thinking about it. ;)

[scotty1]

Yes and no. The point is the OVERemphasis on forms during training, coupled with the expectations of learning to apply their martial art on the one hand. On the other hand, observations from the outside that forms training is all there is in CMA training and CMA'ists can't fight because of the way they train.

OK cool. That makes sense.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by count
On the other hand, observations from the outside that forms training is all there is in CMA training and CMA'ists can't fight because of the way they train.

that's not because of forms though, necessarily. It's because of the design of traditional training - it seems to take longer to produce a fighter in some styles. It's like paradox - traditional guys say mma guys are a jack of all trades and master of none, but at the same time, they are doing forms, iron body, two man, chi sau and various other drills, weapons, qi/nei gong, etc... where's the focus?

[count]

Originally posted by SevenStar
traditional guys say mma guys are a jack of all trades and master of none, but at the same time, they are doing forms, iron body, two man, chi sau and various other drills, weapons, qi/nei gong, etc... where's the focus?
Never heard that before, but I guess I get your point.

[PangQuan]

its like eggo waffles vs. home made waffles. sure the eggos will be a little different from your buddies cause you toasted them longer. but primarily they will be very similar. but the home made waffles will be different from your buddies cause your recipie is different. Of course in a modern world the eggo's will get the job done alot sooner, and you will basically have the same end result. You will be full. The home made ones will just have a different type of satisfaction involved in the end result.

MMA will develop fast furious fighters who have a very rounded idea of fighting styles, TCMA will slowly develop fighters with a very very sound understanding of their particular style in regards to fighting.

Both are good, they just approach the end result in a different way.

[MasterKiller]

Originally posted by PangQuan
Both are good, they just approach the end result in a different way. It's only good if it works. Since TMA isn't producing the same ratio of quality fighters as MMA, there needs to be some tinkering with the training.

[PangQuan]

wait until there has been long enough exposure of the TCMA in america, you will begin to see its effects. I bet you anything that there are some bad dudes over in china who studied traditionally. So what if they dont wanna go into cage fighting. Americans will. Besides all that cage fighting is american anyhow. And TCMA is producing great quality fighters, it just takes alot longer, after about 15-20 years of TCMA the mindset is also adopted from the style. And if you dont know what that mindset is, then I am not telling. There will be an upcomming account of TCMA fighters just wait. That is the whole point man, patients. Wait it out, it will come. Just like that baseball movie. If you build it, they will come. tell you what, Ill train my son to be a great fighter using traditional means. so wait about 20 - 30 years and Ill prove it. LOL.

[MasterKiller]

Originally posted by PangQuan
wait until there has been long enough exposure of the TCMA in america, you will begin to see its effects. I bet you anything that there are some bad dudes over in china who studied traditionally. So what if they dont wanna go into cage fighting. Americans will. Besides all that cage fighting is american anyhow. And TCMA is producing great quality fighters, it just takes alot longer, after about 15-20 years of TCMA the mindset is also adopted from the style. And if you dont know what that mindset is, then I am not telling. There will be an upcomming account of TCMA fighters just wait. That is the whole point man, patients. Wait it out, it will come. Just like that baseball movie. If you build it, they will come. tell you what, Ill train my son to be a great fighter using traditional means. so wait about 20 - 30 years and Ill prove it. LOL.

MMA is like, what, 10 years old. TMA has been here since at least WWII. CHinese Arts have been openly taught since at least the 70s.

[PangQuan]

Openly taught yes, but not highly studied until more recently. MMA caught on really fast, and with the methods it develops fighters very fast. I am not in anyway knocking MMA, but you should also realize the methods of TCMA are just different, not wrong. If you change them then you no longer have TCMA. I will not change, and I can garantee you that no other TCMAist will change either. It is futile to try.

[MasterKiller]

Originally posted by PangQuan
Openly taught yes, but not highly studied until more recently. MMA caught on really fast, and with the methods it develops fighters very fast. I am not in anyway knocking MMA, but you should also realize the methods of TCMA are just different, not wrong. If you change them then you no longer have TCMA. I will not change, and I can garantee you that no other TCMAist will change either. It is futile to try. I practice CMA, so I know the difference. I also think the way most people practice CMA is incorrect. Real CMA training is more like MMA training, but without the gay spandex shorts.

[PangQuan]

LOL, I guess your right. In a sense. There just happens to be many exersises that CMA do that MMAers think are obsolete, those are the practices that will not be given up. I also believe there are different types of MMA, the classification of MMA is (in my opinion) far to broad, and there needs to be some reclassification.

[Waidan]

I like form training. I dig it. It's a mental and physical exercise. It's something I can do in a class or by myself. It gets chicks.

Form training is good in many ways, but it is not the end-all-be-all that some MAs make it out to be. Why do some seem to believe "knowing" forms means being able to fight? I blame the following:

1. Teachers who are willing to replace drills and sparring with forms, forms, and more forms. It's easy, it's cheap (insurance), and you're unlikely to run off students who might disappear at the sight of their own blood (or sweat).

2. Black Belt Theater. As a child, I watched plenty of movies featuring a protagonist who learned a form from either A) an ancient manuscript, or B) some guy with MASSIVE eyebrows, then proceeded to fight with legendary skills. In my youth, I bought into this concept. It was only after getting my butt handed to me a couple times that I began to have doubts.

Anyway, I think form training is useful and has its place, but it should take a back seat to more practical and direct training methods. I realize this statement is neither controversial nor particularly enlightened, but I'm bored at work and haven't posted in a while.

[PangQuan]

I think your right, it is important but not the "cream of the crop" so to speak. D@mn I love my quotation marks.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by PangQuan
I also believe there are different types of MMA, the classification of MMA is (in my opinion) far to broad, and there needs to be some reclassification.

MMA means really one thing - mized martial arts competition. Ther term was coined as it is more subtle sounding than "no holds barred". In terms of a martial artist, is it someone who can strike and grapple. How you do that is up to you - muay thai and bjj, boxing and catch, tkd and judo, baji and shuai chiao, etc. I think however, the term has become something of a catch phrase....alot of people say they are mma because they have trained in multiple styles - IMO, they are incorrect.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by PangQuan
wait until there has been long enough exposure of the TCMA in america, you will begin to see its effects. I bet you anything that there are some bad dudes over in china who studied traditionally.

other than wushu, how popular is MA over there? I would guess that popularity is greater in the US and Japan.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by PangQuan
I am not in anyway knocking MMA, but you should also realize the methods of TCMA are just different, not wrong. If you change them then you no longer have TCMA. I will not change, and I can garantee you that no other TCMAist will change either. It is futile to try.

Why do you think this is?

[Vash]

Adapt or die, biches.

*kicks dead horse square in it's teeth*

[PangQuan]

Originally posted by SevenStar
Why do you think this is?

Not too sure, other then the fact that humans are creatures of habit, my exposure in the martial arts came originally from my studies of taoism, you can imagine the progression from that to kung fu. I guess its just what one is comfortable with. I like the traditionality, its got a unique flavor just as MMA does, I just happen to be privy to that specific flavor.

[SevenStar]

understandable. Why do you think that changing the training would no longer make it traditional?

[SAAMAG]

Originally posted by count
Point, set and match. BTW, show me one place where I said I don't like forms or I think they're useless. But after 30 years of study in CMA and 16 years married to a Physical Therapist, I think I have a good idea of what exercise is all about. If you think you're getting it from doing your forms, than do your forms. But you are missing the point of your training and you're missing the point of this post.

BTW, Ray, I didn't say I did not find any health benefit either. Just that it is not the primary reason to train in martial arts. Just like forms are not the primary method of learning to fight. Glad your making progress and give my regards to Mr. Chan

I haven't read any of the posts beyond this one that I'm commenting on...as I feel it's probably going to be the same thing throughout.

But Count, I also advocate learning martial arts with the primary goal being actual fighting ability. Therefore you can say that in MY martial arts, the dominating adjective would be "martial". But then there are others may prioritize the "art" side as well, and there is nothing wrong with that.

You telling someone they are missing the point of their training is like me telling you that you don't understand your wife. I don't know your wife or your relationship with her, so how can I say that? I can't. You don't know the training system this guy trains in nor do you know his relationship with it (his goals etc.) So you cannot say that either.

BTW, learning martial arts and being married to a physical therapist doesn't make you a physical trainer, or an expert in kinesiology. At the most basic level, the signs of exercise are an increased heartrate, perspiration, heavy breathing, and most of all movement. Forms are similar to aerobics exercises, with a bit of plyometrics thrown in.

[PangQuan]

Originally posted by SevenStar
understandable. Why do you think that changing the training would no longer make it traditional?

you could compare it to (yes another food analogy, i like food) removing the chocolate chips from a chocolate chip cookie, it will still be a cookie, just not the same exact kind. Remove part of the traditional training regimee and it is still kung fu, just not the same exact traditional style. ie; remove alot of the stance training, and your stance foundation will not develop into the same as it would have.

[count]

Originally posted by Vankuen
I haven't read any of the posts beyond this one that I'm commenting on...as I feel it's probably going to be the same thing throughout.

But Count, I also advocate learning martial arts with the primary goal being actual fighting ability. Therefore you can say that in MY martial arts, the dominating adjective would be "martial". But then there are others may prioritize the "art" side as well, and there is nothing wrong with that.

You telling someone they are missing the point of their training is like me telling you that you don't understand your wife. I don't know your wife or your relationship with her, so how can I say that? I can't. You don't know the training system this guy trains in nor do you know his relationship with it (his goals etc.) So you cannot say that either.

BTW, learning martial arts and being married to a physical therapist doesn't make you a physical trainer, or an expert in kinesiology. At the most basic level, the signs of exercise are an increased heartrate, perspiration, heavy breathing, and most of all movement. Forms are similar to aerobics exercises, with a bit of plyometrics thrown in.
Your post is right on many levels. It's redundant to read beyond a point. There are people making the same points as were made earlier. People are comparing apples to artichokes. So before leaving this sleeping dog, I will reply to your comment.

Being married to a PT for 16 years and studying martial arts for 30 doesn't make me an expert on exercise kinesiology. Maybe gives me an advantage in understanding the benefit of an exercise that I don't practice, but certainly not an expert. I did make the point that there is some aerobic benefit to forms in relationship to the very comment about kinesiology, but you did not read further so you probably missed it. It is however, a side effect and not the intention.

As far as the "art" in "martial art". These arts were created for one purpose only. Without going into a philosophical dissertation, the term martial arts as it applies to combat methods, implies that the method is refined through practice and over time to a degree of skill that can be seen by anyone. While a painter or poet may be doing a similar process, I can not agree with your point. If a person says they are doing martial arts and focusing on the art part, they are missing the point. They are doing something else. For lack of a better word, I usually call that Contemporary Wushu or Ethnic Dance, but not martial art. Personally, I detest the words kung fu except when someone asks what I am doing and I don't want to explain the entire history or method of my art.

I will say, very few people have addressed concepts of "following" and "sticking" or methods of training strength in this thread. Unfortunate. But I know knifefighter knew what I was talking about. So I'll leave this thread for now and maybe start another later to specifically address these things. It's already to long for people to read through to find the important parts. Nobody has convinced me, I'm wrong, so I'll say it one last time. Forms are to pass on the history and flavor of a system. Not to learn to fight. ****, nobody even pointed out flavor.

[MasterKiller]

Originally posted by PangQuan
Remove part of the traditional training regimee and it is still kung fu, just not the same exact traditional style. ie; remove alot of the stance training, and your stance foundation will not develop into the same as it would have. Chinese boxing is a living thing...it adapted time and again to new weapons, techniques, and warfare tactics. So why all the sudden should it remain static?

Do you think Chinese boxing training from 5 C.E. looked anything like Chinese boxing training from 1805 C.E.? Which was more traditional?

The principles are solid. Remain true to them, and you have Chinese boxing, regardless of if you update the training methods.

[SifuAbel]

The wheels on the bus go round and round....................

[MasterKiller]

Originally posted by count
****, nobody even pointed out flavor. We had a BIG discussion on flavor and what it means last year. I think everyone is flavored out.

Flavor-Flav on a hype tip
Um ya hype drink, come take a big sip
Um in position, you can't play me out da pocket
I'll take da dopest beat yougot and I'll rock-it
Like chocolate, even vanilla - chocolate, strawberry, saperella
Flavors are electric - try me - get a shock-a
Didn't I tell you to leave Flavor Flav alone knock-a
A clock on my chest proves I don't fess
I'm a clock-a, rock-a rockin' wit-da-rest
Flavor in da house by Chuck-D's side
Chuck got da Flavor-Flav don't hide
P.E. crazy, Crazy P.E. - makin' crazy loowies for the shoppin spree

[PangQuan]

Originally posted by MasterKiller
Chinese boxing is a living thing...it adapted time and again to new weapons, techniques, and warfare tactics. So why all the sudden should it remain static?

Do you think Chinese boxing training from 5 C.E. looked anything like Chinese boxing training from 1805 C.E.? Which was more traditional?

The principles are solid. Remain true to them, and you have Chinese boxing, regardless of if you update the training methods.

Im not saying that change will not, or should not take place, I am just saying that the change will be a developement of certain practices not a removal. But what the hell, I think this is turning more into a ping pong game of spitting the same crap back and forth. We all know how we feel.

VIVA LA REVOLUTION!!! PARTY ON WAYNE!!! LIVE LONG AND PROSPER!!! oh and dont forget, SSAAAIIIIIYAAAAHH!!!

k im done now.

[tug]

The basis of the various styles of Ba Gua Zhang, and the practice all styles have in common, is the circle walk. The practitioner literally walks in a circle while holding various static postures with the upper body or while executing "palm changes" (short patterns of movement or "forms" which train the body mechanics and methods of generating power which form the basis of the styles' fighting techniques). All styles have a variation of a form known as the Single Palm Change. The Single Palm Change is the most basic form and is the nucleus of the remaining palm changes found in the Art. Besides the Single Palm Change, the other forms include the Double Palm Change and the Eight Palm Changes (also known variously as the Eight Mother Palms or the Old Eight Palms). These forms make up the foundation of the art of Ba Gua Zhang. Ba Gua Zhang movements have a characteristic circular nature, and there is a great deal of body spinning, turning, and rapid changes in direction. In addition to the Single, Double, and Eight Palm Changes, most but not all styles of Ba Gua Zhang include some variation of the Sixty-Four Palms. The Sixty-Four Palms include forms which teach the mechanics and sequence of the specific fighting techniques included in the style. These forms take the general energies developed during the practice of the Palm Changes and focus them into more exact patterns of movement, which are applied directly to a specific combat technique. In addition to the above forms and methods, most styles of Ba Gua Zhang include various two-person forms and drills as intermediate steps between solo forms and the practice of combat techniques.

Count, taken from this standpoint, I have to once again disagree with your original statement - that forms are not a way to learn to fight. Now, I am not saying that all you need are forms for true fighting technique, far from it. And I might even be convinced that forms might not be as important when it comes to real fighting (don't know about that one yet), but as it is for me, forms are where you start in TCMA, of which I am very fond. Forms are the basis of most, if not all TCMA, and without them, I believe one would be lost.

So now, the issue for me is the difference between MMA and TCMA, something that has and will continue to be debated to death here, there and everywhere. Maybe this is more specifically the difference you were trying to address? I don't know, but it seems that the general consensus at this point is - if you like your art, what it gives you and what it means to your life and survival, then by all means keep it up. There will always be discussion, differences of opinion and heated exchanges, but the one thing we all must fall back on, return to and be true to is ourselves.

[count]

Yo, Tug,
Now yer talkin my speak. I've read it before. Tim is one man and his opinions are his own. You feel free to interpret what he is saying to fit your argument. I can understand what he is saying since it is my primary style he's refering to. What I read here is there are

steps between solo forms and the practice of combat techniques. Now that's what I'm talking about. But dude, start another thread or something if you have a point.;)

[tug]

Well, what he is saying just reaffirms my beliefs, but I chose to use his description because I could never be as articulate.

As for not having a point, what? My point is that I believe forms are just as important as sparring, conditioning and everything else that goes with studying an art. This is my belief, this is my point, feel free to have your own opinion, as we all have a right to.:cool:

[count]

No Bro,
I didn't say you "didn't have a point" at all. I understand your point. I only suggested starting another thread.


To be clear, Tim only wrote about a few points of interest to describe a style. There is much more. Obviously, it would be boring to a reader to hear about it. But the point is there are steps in between.

[SifuAbel]

To me its very simple. When BL started the whole "dead pattern" cliche, he was refering to practitioners who did not have flow or adaptability. They were stuck in the conventions of A following B as per their "style". This was directed especially to the mostly karate oriented american MA community. Which was doing the stop-hit one point sparing. It wasn't the pattern that was dead, but the use of it by the practitioners. Fighting with spontaneity is abstract but still draws on the bulk knowledge of your body.

You can be formless even if you practice forms. Its just another mode of conditioning. And a powerful one when done right.

Why is it so hard to distinguish the fighters from the non fighters? That is, after all, the only problem.

The problem isn't whether or not you do forms. Its whether or not you fight.

Most of what I have read above just seems like a snake eating its tail. Point , counter point, missing the point.

Humans may have evovled technologically but not bodily. On the whole, the super athlete is a tiny minority.There is no "evolution", no "modern", no "traditional", nothing new under the sun. Only what we percieve is new to ourselves. Everything and anything you have ever done bodily has been done before and in eon. fist, Kick , grab, throw, nothing. MMA? Pankration....... and even before that.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by PangQuan
Im not saying that change will not, or should not take place, I am just saying that the change will be a developement of certain practices not a removal.

Who mentioned a removal?

[tug]

It seems as if we may have hit on a vaguely perceivable "common ground". I guess I had not previously defined for myself those steps in between. I have always thought of studying or training as one entity, as a whole, and actually, because of this discussion, I am being forced to rethink the way I do things. Very interesting feeling.

Why would I want to start another thread? Aren't we still talking about the same thing? At any rate, I am enjoying this, thank you.


Most of what I have read above just seems like a snake eating its tail. Point , counter point, missing the point.

Maybe, but that's why we are here, to understand. That's all I am trying to do.

[count]

Good Tug,
I think (maybe stating the obvious)
class is for learning
home is for training
the world is for practice
time is for perfecting.

Can you describe what your classes are like?

[Knifefighter]

Originally posted by Waidan
I like form training.... It gets chicks.
I hate to tell you this, but, if anything, it has the opposite effect.

[Knifefighter]

Originally posted by SifuAbel
To me its very simple. When BL started the whole "dead pattern" cliche, he was refering to practitioners who did not have flow or adaptability. They were stuck in the conventions of A following B as per their "style". This was directed especially to the mostly karate oriented american MA community. Actually, he was directing this more to the CMA community.

[PangQuan]

Some people watch TV, some watch movies, some play video games, some do drugs/drink, I like to do forms instead of all that crap. of course I do practicle sparring and techniques training as well, but I decided to remove myself from modern lazziness and practice forms instead. Its a matter of priority and love. I love my forms, I love to fight, why not do both, they both benefit my training. I however do not like to sport fight. So I dont get to many chances to actually fight. I used to be not so nice of a person when I was younger and always got in fights. Since I have begun my kung fu training, I have definately notice a difference that the forms have done with my hand/eye coordination, reaction time, and most importantly timing. Thats not to mention balance, stamina/endurance, peace, flexability, breathing correctly while in motion, etc... Yes you can gain much of this from other forms of training, but you get it from form training as well. Each subject noted above will be trained to a different degree depending on your methods, forms may train one area at a higher degree then other training methods while at the same time may train one aspect to a lower degree. It is about finding your harmony and balance.

[SifuAbel]

Originally posted by Knifefighter
Actually, he was directing this more to the CMA community.

The CMA comunity that wasn't really open to the US? The CMA community that was in the abject minority? Better said, what CMA community?

Don't tell me now that he wasn't talking about the state of U.S. MA at the time, that was 99.9% japanese styles. That spin won't turn.

At the time of the Long Beach demo it was very much CMA(and its ways) vs. JMA. And he started making these comments at that time. For the above reasons. ABOUT the MAJORITY of the schools here. Karate schools.

[count]

Well I'm not much of an historian off handedly. But personally, at the time I was more impressed and influenced by what Adam Hsu was writing in the CMA magazine's that were available to me in the late 60's and 70's. There were other greats who were openly teaching than too. Where I grew up in Chicago, I remember seeing Tai Chi Chuan being openly taught to American's as far back as the 50's and 60's. There were a few hardcore Chinese schools, of course it was more of a closed door policy than. Here in Los Angeles, Ark Wong had been teaching openly since the 30's.

But I give a lot of credit to Bruce for opening up the CMA community to the AMA population. I also give him a lot of blame for what the American's think about CMA. But he was a great businessman. Catering to American's drive. Maybe to that fast food mentality. Hey, I've got nothing against McDonald's Big Mac's. They can be really good when you scarf them down and surely they fill you up. But I'm pretty sure they aren't as good for your insides over time. :p