Demons and Martial Arts

[serene_dragon]

Has anyone else ever been confronted with this kind of problem?

An instructor in my area is calling on the demons, according to some of his students he has them meditate away from the light and into the dark to bring the power of the demons to them. Telling them after a certain level of training that it is the only way they can continue their training under him and it is the only way of reaching their true potentials.

When things like this get out, and it did in my comunity, it turns people away from Martial Arts thinking we all do the same things. The # of people who would inquire about class dropped off considerably when some of his students started talking about what was going on.

[David Jamieson]

well... demons eh?

sounds pretty absurd, but then, I've heard more absurd stuff than that.

Tell him to stuff his demons up his ass in the middle of a meditation session. Then attack him with sticks and beat him until he's all welted up. Then tar and feather him, then run him out of town on a rail. Then get some real karate into town.

then start training martial arts without a speed addict with delusions.

[PangQuan]

Dude! that guy sounds like a freak. Someone needs to go to kentucky and kick that guys freaky arse. Wait...does he glow? If so IM not gonna be the one to go. I dont wanna mess with any demons man. Blah...someone needs to show the people there the pure innocent side of traditional arts.

[Christopher M]

Well, demons are pretty powerful. You really should have a protective circle down if you're going to summon them though.

[red5angel]

I went walking through the woods one day and I came to a stream. on one side stood three bill-goats and underneath the bridge you'll never guess what I spied.....

[Starchaser107]

crack is wack.

You must now go deep into the Norse mountains and find the ancient hammer Mjolnir, only this will protect you from the demons.:rolleyes:

[PangQuan]

I have magical demon away powder, you can get the word out around your village if you want. I sell it by 4 oz bottles for 89.99

get the word out. it will save your soul.

[ewallace]

When I was very young, Kung-Fu was associated with Devil worship, and many kids in my hood were not allowed to take it. Sounds all too familiar.

[PangQuan]

I remember that, I made a fortune in your village.

[joedoe]

Just call forth the light and kick his ass

Or should you say "By the power of Greyskull!"?

I can't remember :D

[red5angel]

in all seriousness serene dragon, I'd go to www.bullshido.com and ask them about this problem, There are a couple of experts over there that can help out

[serene_dragon]

So none of you have had idiots like this in your area I take it.

Like the jokes though

[Royal Dragon]

You sure you weren't watching a rerun of Buffy The Vampire Slayer?

[PangQuan]

fortunately I live in a major metropolitan, so needless to say, hacks like that go down with a quickness. Cause i live here so everyone gets free demon away powder.

[Yum Cha]

****, you guys act like you never heard of this freaky ****e before.

It sounds like a version of the spirit possession meditations. The idea being that you invite a spirit of an ancestor to inhabit and empower you, naturally, a fearsome one, perhaps Uncle Lee the Eye Plucker, or even Gwan Gung himself. You work yourself into a kinda trance from what I've been told.

This gives you added courage to launch into combat. It allegedly can drive you crazy as well... Again, I'm no expert, but I think it is more prevelent in Hakka arts.

I'm not sure, but I think it was the kind of thing used in the boxer rebellion that made the rebels feel as if they were bullett proof. Naturally, it was an illustion.

As for demons, well, all I can say is ,"don't go to the dark side, Luke."

[FuXnDajenariht]

invoking is dangerous stuff to mess around with trivially...

i wouldn't be in that building if you paid me to.

i second everyones sentiment of 'freaky' lol

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

There are no "Demons".. except those you choose to believe in, and even then they only reside in your own mind.. unfortunately, they can influence you to do things not appropriate.. but, knowing that they are only as real as you choose them to be should dispel any real harm.. too many people fancy the notion of dark and light entities to which they assign personalities.. it is only a notion..

Be well..

[Ray Pina]

I've come across this in Hung Gar circles in NYC but won't mention names because they are sort of prevelant.

This is what you come across when you study village boxing .... you get 300 year old farmer intellect.

As far as demons, I'm with TaijiBob. You have appetities that stem back to your reptile brain, like eat, eat, eat while the eatings good. This was a positive when we were starving on the plains of Africa. But now that there are McDonalds on every corner, you could say that voice is a demon. Think of the 4-Fs (feeding, fleeing, fighting and fu(king ) OUr old brain ran on those. Our newly evolved cortex gives us reason.

Don't go fulfill every erge of the 4Fs with internet porn and binging. That demon is inside all of us but over come it with virtue. The ancient Greeks spoke of this a loooooong time ago. This is also a part of internal alchemy.

I've now learned how to seperate orgasm from ejaculation, and try to limit the former. It's made a big difference. Lost about 10 to 15 lbs, thinking clear, stronger, etc. Funny thing is, now I have women beating my door down and try to limit myself to one expenditure a week....... guess this got a little off topic:o

[Judge Pen]

Originally posted by Ray Pina
I've now learned how to seperate orgasm from ejaculation, and try to limit the former. It's made a big difference. Lost about 10 to 15 lbs, thinking clear, stronger, etc. Funny thing is, now I have women beating my door down and try to limit myself to one expenditure a week....... guess this got a little off topic:o

:eek: Just slightly off topic Ray. But, then again, this was a thread about Demons, so I guess anything's fair game. :D

[Becca]

Scarry stuff indeed. I once knew a guy who got into it with a wickan bent. He ended up going very much crazy. Started walking around thinking his curses were the reason certain people had acne. Ended up being commited after trying to drown himself in a toilette. Very sad.:(

[Shaolinlueb]

sounds like the power of the darkside. hmmm yes indeed.

[GeneChing]

If you do any serious research into CMA secret societies, underground Chinatown 'black society' and/or Taoism and Buddhism (all topics that come up pretty fast for anyone really into CMA research) the notion of demonic powers is quite prevalent. But there's a considerable cultural difference between the way that Chinese culture views such things, as opposed to Western culture. That's where your BS-o-meter alarm rings. There's plenty of resources on Chinese mythology/mysticism - find out if the master is basing his mysticism on a Chinese or a Western paradigm. If it's Western, then it's just some new age mumbo jumbo. If it's Eastern, you may want to re-examine it a little further, just to see what's going on. I wouldn't just write it off to bad crazies right away.

You'd be surprised how many great grandmasters believe in Chinese mysticism. I've heard some amazing tales, straight from masters that are well respected here, but not the kind of thing they would want repeated in public. There are more things on heaven and earth....

[red5angel]

If it's Eastern, you may want to re-examine it a little further, just to see what's going on. I wouldn't just write it off to bad crazies right away.


are you saying eastern demons are more real then eastern demons gene?

[Golden Tiger]

First, let me say that I think this guy is probably just being silly and trying to pander to the "angst filled youth" looking for something dark to tap into.

But.......

I have heard and read account of people who were deep into meditation and astral projection (believe it or not) saying that along their journeys they did meet "people". Now, this could have been the result of "willing" something to happen or even a case of psychosis due to the intense concentrationassociated with mediataion.

A similar example of this can be seen in some of the old "Holy Roller" Pentacostal church services, vodoo rituals, etc.... Watch these people react to the "spirit" like speaking in tongues, the laying of hands, and so on. They will tell you that it is all as real as it can be. Then watch someone that is trying to generate and focus their chi.......VERY similar indeed.

Sorry to ramble but this topic interests me quiet a bit....

[David Jamieson]

1 word - "shamanism"

it's prevalent in pretty much all cultures but has taken a beating from modern reason, science and most of all common sense.

[PangQuan]

Originally posted by red5angel
are you saying eastern demons are more real then eastern demons gene?

I think that the workings in regards to the belief in the demons is different from eastern to western. Like western demons come from "hell" as eastern demons are not necessarilly required to stem from such a dimension.

[ZIM]

"I'm" going to just "randomly" put "quotes" around in various "places", like the previous "posters" did above.

But only because I'm a Western "demon". :D

[PangQuan]

The quotation marks represented the Ideal of hell, since some do not believe. instead of non quotations, which would imply that i believe, which i do not.

[kyklos]

I think Milton wrapped it up nicely in Paradise Lost:

The mind is its own place, and in itself can make a Heaven of Hell, a Hell of Heaven.

[Starchaser107]

I do not believe in "Pang Quan"

:p just kiddin'
i think Pang Quan is real.

[PangQuan]

Pang Quan, is a figment of your imagination. Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain.

[Starchaser107]

:: the sound of dreams shattering ::

[Christopher M]

Originally posted by ZIM
But only because I'm a Western "demon".

Sounds like "mumbo-jumbo" to me.

[PangQuan]

"lol"

[GeneChing]

are you saying eastern demons are more real then eastern demons gene? No, red5angel, I'm not saying that, but they do have better Kung Fu. Ever seen Mr. Vampire? ;) My initial comment was more in respect to the original point of this thread, that it was in a martial arts context, and I assume that it was an eastern martial art. It would seem laughable to me if some Karate guy was talking about Satan or Beelzebub or some western derived demonic beasty. It would not seem that odd if some Qigong master was talking about eastern demonology. In fact, I just had a conversation about this very subject - a noted master was discussing the need for some sort of protective circle, almost parallel to a western mystic circle but he was using Feng Shui terms, when drawing universal qi in qigong.

I'm not saying that's not odd. I'm just saying that it's not too odd. Nor am I saying that I believe in it. I'm just saying that there are many respectable masters who do believe in it. Know "what" I mean? ;)

[Indestructible]

My teacher's shi-gong would yell at him to become one with the animal's spirit of whichever animal he was studying at the time. While not demons, there is a similar spirit type theme.

[Christopher M]

Sweet pun on "shi-gong," bro.

[joedoe]

Originally posted by GeneChing
No, red5angel, I'm not saying that, but they do have better Kung Fu. Ever seen Mr. Vampire? ;) My initial comment was more in respect to the original point of this thread, that it was in a martial arts context, and I assume that it was an eastern martial art. It would seem laughable to me if some Karate guy was talking about Satan or Beelzebub or some western derived demonic beasty. It would not seem that odd if some Qigong master was talking about eastern demonology. In fact, I just had a conversation about this very subject - a noted maste was discussing the need for some sort of protective circle, almost parallel to a western mystic circle but he was using Feng Shui terms, when drawing universal qi in qigong.

I'm not saying that's not odd. I'm just saying that it's not too odd. Nor am I saying that I beleive in it. I'm just saying that there are many respectable masters who do beleive in it. Know "what" I mean? ;)

I hear ya Gene. I have seen too many 'wierd' things in my time training kung fu not to at least keep an open mind about it. My Sigung was heavily into the mystical aspects of kung fu.

[IronFist]

Just get yourself some astral spies to keep the demons at bay.

[joedoe]

But you can only do that if you are a ninja.

Besides, a demon would pwn an astral spy.

[scotty1]

You are not brought upon this world to "get it!" :D

[phantom]

I have heard that it is possible to be possessed by an evil spirit if you do meditation that requires you to totally empty your mind of all thoughts. Some people claim to have done such meditation without ever having that problem, though. I have also read that it is a pratice of some styles to allow a spirit to possess you in order for you to perform certain movements. But what are you supposed to do if that spirit does want to leave your body? I would be very afraid to mess around with that stuff.

[Goldenmane]

Originally posted by Ray Pina
Think of the 4-Fs (feeding, fleeing, fighting and fu(king ) OUr old brain ran on those. Our newly evolved cortex gives us reason.


Okay, who put that other F in there?

About 3 or 4 years or so ago (I think) I presented a model (well, basic outline, of my own designing...) of human behaviour to an online martial arts forum (not this one) based on what I called the 3 f's: fleeing wasn't one of them. The entire point was that reason only makes us able to follow these three drives in more complex and abstract ways. It doesn't override them.

Gotta love finding something you said years ago repeated later but with the point entirely missed. It's like Chinese Whispers.

[Scythefall]

Originally posted by serene_dragon
Has anyone else ever been confronted with this kind of problem?

An instructor in my area is calling on the demons, according to some of his students he has them meditate away from the light and into the dark to bring the power of the demons to them. Telling them after a certain level of training that it is the only way they can continue their training under him and it is the only way of reaching their true potentials.

When things like this get out, and it did in my comunity, it turns people away from Martial Arts thinking we all do the same things. The # of people who would inquire about class dropped off considerably when some of his students started talking about what was going on.

Just think of it as the beginning of the end for that instructor. I wonder what motivates an instructor to begin spouting off about demons as a method of training. Especially in the bible belt. Truth be told, he probably had impure motivation from the beginning and it's coming out. It always comes out. I've seen it happen a few times here in Vegas as well. Ego and darkness tend to go hand in hand. Barely a year ago, I saw two senior students trying to "curse" each other in the parking lot. For various reasons both students have since been expelled, one lost his job and his home, and the other decided he was a master since he knew a whole two Tai Chi forms, so he opened his own school which didn't last two months.

[ZIM]

Originally posted by Scythefall
I wonder what motivates an instructor to begin spouting off about demons as a method of training.
Manga. What else?

I view it as a variant of making chi balls & hurling them at one another.

[Christopher M]

Originally posted by Goldenmane
Okay, who put that other F in there?

It's an old neuropsychology joke used to teach limbic system function.

[tree beard]

in regards to original thread:

have seen it in my area as well. but, dont worry; he will get his. it will follow him through his generations. just sucks for your image in your town; sorry :(

[PangQuan]

Just tell everyone that you practice Angel Kung Fu. They will all love you.

[ZIM]

Originally posted by PangQuan
Just tell everyone that you practice Angel Kung Fu. They will all love you. I hate that show.

[mickey]

Greetings,

I hate coming in at the end of things. Does anyone know what he means by demons?

http://webster-dictionary.org/definition/demon


mickey

[ZIM]

Originally posted by mickey
Greetings,

I hate coming in at the end of things. Does anyone know what he means by demons?

http://webster-dictionary.org/definition/demon


mickey Without the instructor being known, its sorta impossible to say.

That said, its one of 3 or 5 things:
-Its an Eastern thing, like Gene said, and part of semi-legit training
-Its a Western thing and the guy is a heavy metal reject
-Its a New Age thing and the guy is merely a fruit loop
-Its a rumor and nothing at all is going on
-Its a miscommunication; something is going on, but not *that*

I think I covered all possible angles. :)

[Christopher M]

Or maybe he's read Agrippa's fourth book of occult philosophy, where he discusses iron body training.

[GeneChing]

...Did you all catch the story today about the Catholic Church needing more exorcists? (http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/nationworld/bal-te.exorcisms18feb18,1,3571518.story?coll=bal-nationworld-headlines&ctrack=1&cset=true)

[Christopher M]

They're running a course in demonology at the Vatican!

[scholar]

Originally posted by Kung Lek
...then start training martial arts without a speed addict with delusions...


That is the most likely explanation for such weirdness. Why in the world would anyone want to summon demons? If they don't exist, then the guy needs to get himself over to the meth lab for another hit of crank. Assuming they do exist, why the flying **** would you invite one to your party? If they are spiritual embodiments of evil, why wouldn't they just kick the crap out of and drink the souls of the people who first called them to the physical realm? Next up, "Cuddling with Scorpions."

"Run fast, run far!"

[7 star Method]

Please forgive my ignorance, but I have a few questions..

In what way is this guy summoning these demons?

If through meditation, is he asking them to hand over powers or take you over?

Most important - what are the demons names?

There are many Demons within the Taoist Pathenon that are not considered evil. They have been tamed and cultivated themselves in order to reach the lower heavens. These demons are not evil but need to be held in check, if not they still have a tendency to create chaos (Please note, that in Eastern thought, good and evil over lap each other and are not so definite as Western thought).

Please be careful, this could be very harmful if your teacher does not know how to control this. It sounds as if he is leaning towards an evil vibe, not the dark side. In Eastern (Taoist) thought the dark side would not be evil, if anything it would represent the Northern Heavens and Hsuan Tien Shang ti who rules and controls.

If you do not feel comfortable answering any of these questions then all I can say is - be careful - Blessings

Tao-an

LF

[YuanZhideDiZhen]

Serene Dragon:

there are several types of animistic shamanism that your teacher could be practicing:

-invoking the spirits of deceased masters/teachers. normally referred to as Filial Reciprocity. deceased lineage persons might be inclined to assist or instruct a descendant student.

-attempting to align oneself with primordial forces characterized by names, like in western sorcery/necromancy and middle eastern shamanism. this would be akin to trying to reach a platonic form and trying to recreate it in one's own material.

-generating mind-body linkages, which could be an extension of the former method using a western medical/scientific understanding.

-old fasioned possession. the teacher could have a social possession by noisy or hungy ghosts. somewhere in his meditations or travels he might have encountered something beyond his grasp that gained a foothold and is seeking satisfaction through him.

-or even he had an errant thought that he secretly wished to fulfill and it has permeated his basic social interactions in an attempt to communicate this subconscious need.

-and last but not least, he could be an emerging sociopath.

of my two teachers, one was raised by wandering monks and is full of belief in 'magic' and shamanism. the other is more conservative in his cultural understanding of 'spookie' things.

[YuanZhideDiZhen]

7 Star Method:

in my understanding of Taoism the 'demons' are as the immortals themselves: on a personal level they represent qualities of the human character which must be overcome to achieve release from suffering. monks who knew certain attitudes could produce certain benneficial effects would meditate on those attitudes to develop them through 'cultivation'. even 'bad' qualities could be put to good use in the appropriate situation. -?-

[serene_dragon]

Serene Dragon:

there are several types of animistic shamanism that your teacher could be practicing:
__________________________________________________ __________

I did not say this was my instructor/teacher. I said this was an instructor in my area. I am not associated with this guy in any way.

And just to elaborate on the facts, there was no miscomunication in what I was told. I was told what he was teaching by different students of his, not just one. And one more thing, there has been alot of his students that was checked into the psyciatric ward at the local hospital. I dont know if they was (disturbed) to begin with or if it came from his teachings. If I had to guess I would say it came from his teachings.

[YuanZhideDiZhen]

well, sounds like he inadvertantly created hungy ghosts out of beneficent beings and children. that's why kids don't meditate in taoist circles: thier minds are still too weak.

if scientology was introduced to them the communist mind network could have serious psychological affects on youngsters and adults comming from conservative cultural backgrounds. scientology is an animistic system of invocation, possession, psionic development and ritual communism of experience. which i disagree with in principle. it's members suffer many psychoses and are introduced through group activities in prayer/meditation away from their parents generally.

[PangQuan]

I think this dude is just some freaky cook who is praying on the minds of misguided youths and using his marial background as a gateway for gettting them in. Who is tougher than a bad ass fighter who can summon demons, I mean common have you not seen any Japanese Anime, those are the toughes kind of guys. Well exept for the purist who ends up kicking their ass with good old fashion fist to nose style. Screw him.

[7 star Method]

7 Star Method:

in my understanding of Taoism the 'demons' are as the immortals themselves: on a personal level they represent qualities of the human character which must be overcome to achieve release from suffering. monks who knew certain attitudes could produce certain benneficial effects would meditate on those attitudes to develop them through 'cultivation'. even 'bad' qualities could be put to good use in the appropriate situation. -?-

Yes, you are close in your understanding, but it is such a broad subject that it is hard to simplify it so easily.
In Taoism there are numerous kinds of demons. Some are from pre history, others were once human, and others can be from heaven itself.
Yes, Taoist thought believes that they are much like immortals and high level mortals. Their souls need to be cultivated in order to be saved. Many demons are known to be evil but are allowed in heaven under supervision, such as the Snake and Turtle Demons of Hsuan Tien Shang ti.
In Taoist though there is really no "bad" quality. Every quality has "bad" as well as "good", everything is balanced and nothing in the Heaven of Form and Desire (earth) as well as the lower heavens are pure (one sided).

Please excuse me for this conversation if I am insulting any one or you may not find this sort of subject interesting.

Tao-an

LF

[semimoto]

well... demons eh?

sounds pretty absurd, but then, I've heard more absurd stuff than that.

Tell him to stuff his demons up his ass in the middle of a meditation session. Then attack him with sticks and beat him until he's all welted up. Then tar and feather him, then run him out of town on a rail. Then get some real karate into town.

then start training martial arts without a speed addict with delusions.
yes thats one aproach, i especialy like the sticks and welts part, but for every challenge, the solution starts in the spiritual realm, pray for him first.

[Becca]

...Please excuse me for this conversation if I am insulting any one or you may not find this sort of subject interesting.

Tao-an

LF
Insiteful, yes. Insulting, no. While I have never gotten "in to" Toaism, I find lore of all types facinating.

[YuanZhideDiZhen]

In Taoism there are numerous kinds of demons. Some are from pre history, others were once human, and others can be from heaven itself.

Yes, Taoist thought believes that they are much like immortals and high level mortals. Their souls need to be cultivated in order to be saved.

Many demons are known to be evil but are allowed in heaven under supervision, such as the Snake and Turtle Demons of Hsuan Tien Shang ti.

In Taoist thought there is really no "bad" quality. Every quality has "bad" as well as "good", everything is balanced and nothing in the Heaven of Form and Desire (earth) as well as the lower heavens are pure (one sided).

i have a few question-statements concerning your answer:

in the first statement you seem to be relating pre-taoist animism. or rather plain old animism that occurs in the background of every system of thought that tries to answer questions about life.

in my education concerning taoism the eight immortals were a story about the eight traps or frailties of the human character which people must overcome to achieve the eternal tao (or citori in bhudism) or the wisdom of Chuang Tzu.


the demons that were allowed into heaven were allowed to see the earnings/karma of good deed lives compared to the toil of thier own banal existence.

Taoism does relate good and bad as good and bad, righteous and unrighteous, virtue and nonvirtue. without such dichotomies the dichotomy of taoism itself would not be able to exist. yin is strength, life, vigor and everything good and beneficial and represeted by the color black. whereas yang is its opposite. both yin and yang have elements of the supreme oppositeness of themselves, called "the eye of yin" for yin principle and, "the eye of yang" for yang principle. to simplify it a bit these eyes represent the good qualities of badness and the dire mire folly of goodness.

replies?

[7 star Method]

You answered your own question in your first post:

"even 'bad' qualities could be put to good use in the appropriate situation. -?-"

Then how can these qualities be truly bad, if they are for good???

The only demons in heaven earned their way to heaven or were tamed - that is it, no one allowed them in to show them the correct ways that I know of. Which part or section of the cannon speaks of this, I would like to know?

I agree Taoism has to agree on what is bad and what is good - virtuous and not virtuous, but the philosophy behind these actions are not so black and white for practitioners as I understand.

There are many different schools of thought when it comes to Taoism, and many sects do not agree on many of the different interpretations of the cannon. This is a Kungfu board, not a Taoism board, so I think we should leave this post as is - do you agree? ;)

Tao-an

LF

[YuanZhideDiZhen]

i don't mind discussing it and won't take offense at a differing point of view. but if you wish to not continue i will concede. :rolleyes:

[Samurai Jack]

Okay, who put that other F in there?

About 3 or 4 years or so ago (I think) I presented a model (well, basic outline, of my own designing...) of human behaviour to an online martial arts forum (not this one) based on what I called the 3 f's: fleeing wasn't one of them. The entire point was that reason only makes us able to follow these three drives in more complex and abstract ways. It doesn't override them.

Gotta love finding something you said years ago repeated later but with the point entirely missed. It's like Chinese Whispers.

Hate to break it to ya GM, but my old Psychology class introduced me to the "3 F'S" almost ten years ago. They are Fighting, Fleeing, and Sex, and specifically describe the main actions of the Amigdala. Collective Unconscious Chinese Whispers.

[serene_dragon]

You answered your own question in your first post:

"even 'bad' qualities could be put to good use in the appropriate situation. -?-"

Then how can these qualities be truly bad, if they are for good???
__________________________________________________ _____________

I would be interested in continueing with this subject. We can continue it here or start a new thread. But just with this statement itself I have a question. What is considered "bad qualities"?

[7 star Method]

What is a bad quality? Every society has rules and proper moral codes. Almost all societies have the same moral etiquette which was bestowed on us from heavens will.
Do you not know the difference of bad and good? Many people that are doing bad things and/or breaking the law (some evil/bad is lawful) know that they are bad, but cannot help themselves. These are bad humans and it is the righteous to keep these people in line.
Bad Qualities: Rapists, Murderers, Thief's, Ly-ing, disloyalty, etc....
Good Qualities: Righteous and virtuous pretty much breaks into the good qualities, everything else follows if you can practice these two qualities.
Within Taoism, there is no really bad and good, we can see the qualities of bad and good, but under heaven we understand that bad as well is good is what makes everything work - the Tai Chi.

Sorry if this post seems rushed, but I am rushing :D

LF

[SimonM]

I am a Demon! ROAR!!! :p

[serene_dragon]

Please forgive my ignorance, but I have a few questions..

In what way is this guy summoning these demons?

If through meditation, is he asking them to hand over powers or take you over?

Most important - what are the demons names?

From what I was told by some of his students. They are suppose to place a white candle behind them, a black candle in front of them, and a red candle on each side of them. They was to meditate toward the "dark" to bring the dark demons (sorry I can not recall if they told me their names or not) to give them powers/abilities far beyond what they could ever achieve.

[serene_dragon]

YuanZhideDiZhen or 7 star

Is the discussion on good and bad in another thread that you know about?
I wouldnt mind joining in.

[David Jamieson]

I would say that these things will only exist if you let them.

Otherwise, in truth, they do not exist.

Elements are decribed allegorically or by analogy for instance.

IE: a high wind blows your fence down, this was a demon! or Water drowns someone, this was a water demon taking retribution.

In the meantime, they are actually random acts of nature that have pretty much nothing to do with our psychological states.

We cannot make the wind blow through divination, we cannot pray life back into someone, nor can we pray life out of someone.

Cause and effect on the elemental level have zero to do with us, and simply are.

Now, can we induce a transic state in ourselves and can we believe we are possessed or in control of demons? Yes we can do this. But why bother, it is as much a nonsensical game as a ouija board is or getting your cards read or reading your horoscope.

we are connected to each other and the universe we are in, but not in such a simplistic way.

daemons are definitely not something that exist in the same dimension of flesh and blood. same with angels, gods etc. These are all concepts played out to help us understand those things which we cannot otherwise explain and help us to move past dwelling on them for the sake of our own sanity.

In truth, all that there "really" is, is more than enough to ponder. It's not so much a question of why is their something, it's more of a question of why isn't there not something?

good and evil are descriptions of actions taken by human beings that fit into teh social codes they live within. something in our society seen as good, or even neutral in effect can be seem in other societies as wholly demonic and deeply evil.
The same is true the other way around. An easy example to point to is the conflict of thought between your average american and what they saw the taliban to be doing in afghanistan. another example would be what hitler put in motion and how that was acceptable to millions of people and there are still apologists for him today!

In other words, these are creations of our own minds and not actual things. You can play with them if you like, but they have no intrinsic value or meaning unto themselves. If you don't believe in them, then they do not exist, if you do, then they will, but on;y for you who believe in them and you cannot have any effect with them upon others who do not believe.

Hope that wasn't too convoluted. :P

[7 star Method]

Kung Lek,

Your post is your opinion, not based on fact or study - just self opinion, which I respect, but far from the truth.
Modern society likes to play out things that science cannot explain, that is the reason for the inbalance in the world. It is o.k to take this stand on your feelings, but please do stop to understand that your opinion is based on ignorance of truth.
This is not meant as an insult, so please do not take it that way.
Please understand, if you cannot see in the dark, it does not mean that nothing is there.

LF

[David Jamieson]

everything is opinion 7*Method.

especially when dealing with intangibles.
I think my point was that when we speak of god, angels, demons etc etc, then these are intangibles. There is a burden of proof on someone who wishes to vest these ideas into others though and that's where it generally falls apart for the vester and becomes a matter of faith for the vested.

[YuanZhideDiZhen]

I would say that these things will only exist if you let them.

Otherwise, in truth, they do not exist.

good and evil are descriptions of actions taken by human beings that fit into teh social codes they live within. something in our society seen as good, or even neutral in effect can be seem in other societies as wholly demonic and deeply evil
...and there are still apologists for them today!

In other words, these are creations of our own minds and not actual things. You can play with them if you like, but they have no intrinsic value or meaning unto themselves. If you don't believe in them, then they do not exist, if you do, then they will, but only for you who believe in them and you cannot have any effect with them upon others who do not believe.


Sounds like you've either grown up in a liberal city in the states or have had introductory courses in philosophical ontology, ethics and anthroplogy.

the only thing that is dependant on your acceptance of it is niether good and bad, truth or falsehood or tangible or intangible. that 'thing' is your point of view. your pov is dependant upon your enculturation, which almost nobody questions because it formulates in you as a child amongst your parents siblings and peers. it will forever shape how you view yourself and the world around you. the strongest provocations towards formation of solid ethics and resultant actionable points of view come from the basic environment in which one is reared: nurturing type environments can be utilized to produce different kinds of people just as destructive one can be. both formative types can produce both good and evil people. with this formative cognition a concept of good can be seen to preexist a society whereby enculturation occurrs to enforce that concept of good and evil and self versus group.

"generally, what is good for one is good for all". this statement ignores individuals and thier opportunity for self validation. it is even clear by our nation's experience that it is a blatent falsehood as it denies a person's basic rights. but it does have some good elements in the area of law enforcement in that the punishments would be unwaivering and not open to interpretation. further it ignores the sacrifice of individuality required by individuals to join a group and remain its member. it does this by providing a framework which its members can adhere to. in the vast majority of human experience it is difficult to adhere to tenants of belief if their are options available that seem more tenable for even a short time to an individual.

[wdl]

Sounds like you've either grown up in a liberal city in the states or have had introductory courses in philosophical ontology, ethics and anthroplogy.


No man, he's just Canadian.

-Will

[YuanZhideDiZhen]

continuing:

Traditions evolve out of groups to describe a meaning to every event or occurrance in human experience (such as in Judaism).

it is my belief that the vast majority of humans alive today will never be bothered by a ghost, demon, or spirit unless they are introduced to it by someone else: that no human will encounter one on thier own or in thier own daily experience because there are more humans alive today than have ever existed throughout all of time. which may answer another question about the prevalence of 'bad' people in the world assuming a good one has to have help to be good; or that it is exceedingly difficult to maintain goodness without help of some kind.

along this line: if animals are capable of becoming ghosts, or demons/spirits are less than human in material evolution/ spiritual foundation (and are as animals) then why would an animal bother with a human unless it was lame or hungry or malicious?

one step further: the dominant religious cultures are adamant against the contacting of spirits for guidance and protection. they call it an 'evil' act because it invites (for lack of a better analogy) a wild animal into your camp to shred the lives of your people.

we know that when a lion enters camp and carries off a child it's bad. we hunt the lion down and kill it. likewise a person kills another. it could be bad: so we hold a hearing to determine if it was really as bad as an witness or acuser alledges.

and thus admittedly archaic and oversimplified we have cultural establishment of dichotomies. some of those dichotomies are similar or exactly the same in other cultures. a characteristic which some have used to say that right is right and wrong is wrong and to permutate the factors to thier own individual wills which usually occur as rebellion against the societal norm for whatever (usually selfish) reason. Thus your selfishness is still bad and becomes ever increasingly bad as the population grows and resources diminish. to twist right and wrong into "it's right for me" is to say "the laws do not apply to me" in the nature of the arguement. nations which have an enforced legal code concur in what is right and good for all people. it's the punishments that differ.

[YuanZhideDiZhen]

No man, he's just Canadian.l


That's a US protectorate isn't it?

[pinglocalhost]

I came across this have anyone trained here or have done training like this?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dzkQpxWJNgY


http://www.sstt-institute.org/

Let me know have a good day

[GeneChing]

This topic just came up with me recently with a Wudang master. That master, who will remain unnamed for now, does Daoist exorcisms. I'm hoping to get an article on that someday.

[IronWeasel]

This topic just came up with me recently with a Wudang master. That master, who will remain unnamed for now, does Daoist exorcisms. I'm hoping to get an article on that someday.



This (demons) was actually a training method used here in Akron.

I recieved my info second hand, so maybe some local lurkers will chime in and provide some substance.

[teetsao]

sadly this is all too real. my teacher has had a similar experience and was deeply involved in the occult in kung fu before becoming saved and truning to christ. his teacher led im in occultic meditatins and ceremonies. all of the alters in most kung fu schols ar alters to gwan gung or ancestors. ancestor worship is the same thing as occultic demon spirit worship. when they appear to the worshipper they appear as relatives or what is referred to as "familiars". sometimes certain abilites or powers are given to the worsipper.
praying to or making offerings of food or inscence to gwan gung is the same thing as worship. it is asking the spirit to protect you or your school and is demonic. having a statue is 1 thing but making "offerings" to it is another.
things such as this need to be avoided like the plauge as it will only result in major prooblems in your life. there are sects of kung fu practitioners in china who do not practice at all but instead perform ceremonies to be "indwelt" by spirits who were supposed martial experts,then these guys can performs feats of martial prowess with no traning.
this is very real in the martial arts and has been around for a long time. now whether the guy in question that this thread started on is real,or if he is just talking thinking it is cool is another,as most in the u.s. dont know about this side of it and sometimes do rituals they have no idea what they are doing.

iron weasel, i know the stry in question from a source close to yours, yes it is real.

[kfman5F]

I came across this have anyone trained here or have done training like this?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dzkQpxWJNgY


http://www.sstt-institute.org/

Let me know have a good day

I have seen the SSTT group practice. When I watch them doing their forms, I scratch my head because nothing makes sense in their movement. (No offense, just my observation). Where's the technique except for some slaps that look annoying. They look like kung fu country line dancing with lousy structure and choppy movement. They change directions without looking and not once have I seen anyone throw a punch or kick for defense technique practice. I seriously doubt the spirits would help when someone wants to chop their head off. And if they are fighting demons, how does that help fighting humans?

[Syn7]

sadly this is all too real. my teacher has had a similar experience and was deeply involved in the occult in kung fu before becoming saved and truning to christ. his teacher led im in occultic meditatins and ceremonies. all of the alters in most kung fu schols ar alters to gwan gung or ancestors. ancestor worship is the same thing as occultic demon spirit worship. when they appear to the worshipper they appear as relatives or what is referred to as "familiars". sometimes certain abilites or powers are given to the worsipper.
praying to or making offerings of food or inscence to gwan gung is the same thing as worship. it is asking the spirit to protect you or your school and is demonic. having a statue is 1 thing but making "offerings" to it is another.
things such as this need to be avoided like the plauge as it will only result in major prooblems in your life. there are sects of kung fu practitioners in china who do not practice at all but instead perform ceremonies to be "indwelt" by spirits who were supposed martial experts,then these guys can performs feats of martial prowess with no traning.
this is very real in the martial arts and has been around for a long time. now whether the guy in question that this thread started on is real,or if he is just talking thinking it is cool is another,as most in the u.s. dont know about this side of it and sometimes do rituals they have no idea what they are doing.

iron weasel, i know the stry in question from a source close to yours, yes it is real.

hey thats not very PC of you, T... isnt that sort of like me saying that worshipping any deity should be "avoided like the plague" as it is an inherent weakness rooted in a reliance of something insubstantial keeping one from truly realising their potential by relying on the one and only thing we all know we have, our selves... by taking ultimate responsibility of everything from ourselves and put into the hands of something that is "unknowable" could be considered cowardly...

ofcourse to say something like that may seem insensitive at the very least... i mean, who am i to judge a demon worshipper or any sort of creationist, right....???

[Chief_Suicide]

Seems he likes to use Semantic satiation. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semantic_satiation)

If they can transform themselves on physical and energetic levels, you'd think he could do something about that receding hair line. Just say'in!

[David Jamieson]

From my point of view, I would say again that any and all intangibles are illusion and do not exist.

We, as humans bring these ideas to life and give them credence despite the non actuality of them.

there are no angels, there are no demons. These are allegory for your own perceptions of reality.

Things going bad? The simple mind blames, the higher mind seeks resolution through worldly means.

Things go good? The simple mind thanks an intangible and the higher mind recognizes a job well done or fortuitous coincidence.

Faith belongs to god. Not angels and demons and other made up fantasies that are deliberately insisted upon by ever intensifying crazed minds intent on making you believe in their falsehoods.

People suffer and in their ignorance they seek to find out why they suffer but because of that same ignorance they are unable to make any determination or to even accept the reality of the circumstances they are in.

and so, they put the problem outside themselves and give it a name and dress it up as something even more formidable and subsequently, they never get around to dealing with the problem.

Demons are your fears
Angels are your successes

Beyond that, they are not anything.

[JDK]

Here is some food for thought....although I KNOW it will not be popular....

MARTIAL ARTS - ROOTED IN THE OCCULT
The Martial Arts are more than just a method of self-defense or a system of health exercises. They actually involve a life philosophy derived from eastern religions. The testimonies of Karatekas a devout practitioner of karate or other forms of martial arts do not hide the fact that the martial arts are more than just a sport.
"Karatedo another form of karate is an art and I teach it as a way of being, a way of life, as a method of developing one's self, and not as a sport," states one teacher. Karate is not a fighting sport. This was completely misconstrued by people of this country where it was taken and turned into a sport.

There are many conflicting theories regarding the origin of the martial arts. The account stated here is a widely accepted survey that traces the general history of the martial arts and goes back too the dawn of civilization in India. Three millennia ago in China, the arts were developed even more extensively. By the establishment of the Feudal States in 770 B.C., Kung fu was widely practiced.

In 1928 they were renamed War Arts and were awarded national recognition. Over the centuries various aspects of the arts were modified and eventually evolved into more or less violent types.

Northern and Southern schools and hard and soft forms also developed. Kung fu was the original all inclusive term describing the martial arts. Later, specific names were applied to its variations: karate, tai chi, judo, jujitso, and aikido.

In Korea, the arts were known as Te Kwon Do. They were honed into their highest forms of proficiency in Okinawa.

Though one often thinks of the arts as made in Japan, they have many roots and cultural variations. The original religious philosophy of Kung fu dates back as far as 2696 B.C., where it was rooted in the Occult forms of divination known as the I-Ching and the book of Changes. Lao-Tse, the Chinese sage born in 604 B.C., added further embellishments. His teachings were set forth in a 5,280 word manuscript called Tao Te Chang, also known as " the Tao" or "the Way".

He taught salvation could not be found in prayer but rather by the observance of nature, the natural way.

As the trees bend with the wind, and rivers follow the path of least resistance, so must man adapt to the rhythm with evil and wrong. The next development in history of Kung fu took place when a monk named Bodhidharma brought Buddhism to China in sixth century A.D. When he discovered the monks sleeping during his lectures, he introduced exercises to assist them in meditation.

Known as I-Ching Sutura, his system combined Kung fu with the philosophical principle of Zen to develop a highly sophisticated form of weaponless fighting. The monks at his Shaolin temple became famous for their savage abilities of defense which they employed whenever they were attacked in the course of pilgrimages. Eventually two schools of martial arts evolved; Ch'uan Fe (Kung fu) based on the hard (external) school of Buddhism, and other arts founded on the soft (internal) school of Taoism. Martial arts have evolved into six basic forms by which they are known. In the Western world they are known as: Kung Fu, Tai Chi Ch'uan, Karate, Akido, Judo and Jujitsu.

Such Occult experimentation is forbidden in The Bible
. Karate works by inducing a passivity in the mind setting the stage for a type of self-hypnosis. A demon then enters and gives supernatural strength and power. Karate teachers call this "going into perfection." Kung Fu which is rooted in Zen Buddhism, was popularized by a TV series of that name. Bruce Lee movies (Enter the Dragon; Way of the Dragon; Return of the Dragon; Game of Death) also spread this occult science across the nation.

Spirits of Murder, Hatred, Pride, Bitterness, Depression, Resentment, Fear, Violence, Lust for Power, Lust for (green, brown or black) Belts, Sexual Lust, Fighting, Rage, Destruction, Suicide, Sadism and Masochism are some of the spirits commonly found in those who have trained in Martial Arts. Some of the more heavily possessed individuals have also become very adept at Mind control, Telepathy, Telekinetic, Mind reading, Astral projection and Soul travel under the leadership of demonic guides.

[gilbride100]

The truth is no one knows whether things like this have any objective existence or not. No one can possibly know that without getting the kind of "birds eye view" on reality that we just can't have. Do you have the ability to step outside of the limitations of your own perception, biases etc and say exactly what is or isn't within the universe in some way, shape or form? Of course not, no one does.

There's more than one way to look at the world.

[JDK]

The truth is no one knows whether things like this have any objective existence or not. No one can possibly know that without getting the kind of "birds eye view" on reality that we just can't have. Do you have the ability to step outside of the limitations of your own perception, biases etc and say exactly what is or isn't within the universe in some way, shape or form? Of course not, no one does.

There's more than one way to look at the world.

I guess I would differ with you on this point...if one has "been there and done that" that gives one experience in a certain area, taking it beyond just heresay...and making it reality.

It pains me to address this issue because I struggled with it for so long.
I should also add that I am looking at this topic from a christian perspective.
If a person is not a christian...then they will probabley not have any problems philisophically with the practice of the Eastern Arts.

The fact is you cannot divorce true Martial Arts from heathen practices of religion.

You can practice a watered down version, make it into a sport....and leave out the customs and traditions.....but at the heart you still have a view of the Universe that is not rooted in belief in The God of The Bible.

That was my point...which I should have made clear in my first response.


JDK

[taai gihk yahn]

The truth is no one knows whether things like this have any objective existence or not. No one can possibly know that without getting the kind of "birds eye view" on reality that we just can't have. Do you have the ability to step outside of the limitations of your own perception, biases etc and say exactly what is or isn't within the universe in some way, shape or form? Of course not, no one does.

There's more than one way to look at the world.
ummm, no;

if they are real, then where did the original "sighting" of angels / demons / flying spagetti monsters occur? if someone had a direct experience with one of them, then our perceptual apparatus is capable of experiencing them;

OTOH, if they cannot be demonstrated to exist within our ability to perceive them, then there is no way anyone could ever have done so, so therefore, it must all be conjecture or some sort of perceivable phenommenon that was not understood rationally and therefore was ascribed to "supernatural" stuff

you realize, that we get stuck in this same argument all the time? someone has an idea that angels / demons / god / whatever exists, but can offer no proof; when someone calls them on it they say, "well, you can't DISPROVE it, so you have to accept the possibility that it is real"

of course, the OBVIOUS answer is that the only way to "see" them is to undertake special training, and I can send you a packet of how to do that for $666.00 plus a monthly member ship fee of indeterminate amount (just send me your cc#, I'll handle the rest)

[taai gihk yahn]

If a person is not a christian...then they will probabley not have any problems philisophically with the practice of the Eastern Arts.

The fact is you cannot divorce true Martial Arts from heathen practices of religion.

You can practice a watered down version, make it into a sport....and leave out the customs and traditions.....but at the heart you still have a view of the Universe that is not rooted in belief in The God of The Bible.
it never ceases to amaze me how so many people continue to accept something so inherently relative as being absolute

[JDK]

A little more tolerant position....

http://home.earthlink.net/~ronrhodes/Martial2.html

[ShaolinDan]

There are a lot of things that individuals can experience, that no one else can perceive. I have always thought of visitations by angels, gods, demons, ghosts, etc., to be something that happens internally, not something others can observe.
When Telemachus is possessed by Athena, no one sees Athena, except in the nature of Telemachus' oratory/poise.

[David Jamieson]

The truth is no one knows whether things like this have any objective existence or not. No one can possibly know that without getting the kind of "birds eye view" on reality that we just can't have. Do you have the ability to step outside of the limitations of your own perception, biases etc and say exactly what is or isn't within the universe in some way, shape or form? Of course not, no one does.

There's more than one way to look at the world.

I agree, however, in keeping an open mind, it is wise to not leave it so wide open that one's brain falls out.

When we speak of things like demons and angels, because they cannot be proven or dis-proven, they are not a necessary construct yet get applied very often.

This is done from ignorance and not seeing the reality that is right there.


Example: 6 miners get buried, only 3 are saved and 3 die. To the three that get saved, you will hear about how it is a miracle and angels watched over them, but what of the three who died?

That is where the idea of angels and demons fails. They are in fact mechanisms which perpetuate ignorance.

As for the write up on eastern religions, there is so much error in that, I have no idea why it was even placed on the board. The misspellings and outright misinformed opinion in that write up made the other look like an ignoramus for one thing, close minded for another and if I were not to be kind, I would openly call the author an outright friggin moron. :)

But that wouldn't be very Christian. I wish people who think they are christian, but aren't would stop harping on about things, shut up and go read and live by the teachings they are supplied with. So often, there is failure in the evangelical approach.

[ShaolinDan]

As far as Christian mystical experience goes, isn't visitation by the holy ghost along the same kind of lines as other visitations? (see athena/telemachus above.)

[David Jamieson]

Trans-personal religious experience is NEVER a shared experience.

It is manifest only in the mind of the experienced.

What happens when they try to convince everyone else that they had a real experience is where it gets sticky. :)

some will accept it having perhaps had a trans-personal experience themselves and others will reject it.

the first often seek to validate their own experience, the ones who lie about it are only fitting in or trying to identify with a group and the ones who reject the trans personal experience of another are in fact correct because the reality of the matter is that it only has any meaning whatsoever for the person who had the experience.

Churches and all the trimmings are worldly mechanisms that serve worldly purposes. You will not be saved by going to church and obeying the priest. You will not be saved by praying the most and you will not be saved by showing the world how much you love god. None of that outward worldly stuff has any meaning or value whatsoever except in context to worldly human needs for egotistical satisfaction.

Community can be had, law can be given, but ultimately it is in the heart and the mind of the individual where everything really is regarding god or gods.

[Lucas]

I work out with demons all the time.

[GeneChing]

If you buy into the theory of qi, the fine print of that purchase typically includes mysticism, and it's only a hop(ping ghost), skip and a jump to demonic possession. In the ancient world, when the paradigm was pre-psychology, it surely had it's functionality with mental illness. Today, it still retains some of this within traditional cultures. Science would dub that superstitious, but that doesn't render placebo effect useless - quite the opposite in fact. Of course, within the martial world, it's trickier because of cult issues.

It's actually been an area of research that I've been pondering a lot recently. I deal with a lot of qi vampires. :rolleyes:

[Lucas]

If you rabbit punch a Qi Vampire in the crotch they throw up all your Qi and you can take it back.

[Lucas]

Psychic Vampire Test (http://quizilla.teennick.com/tests/8366705/are-you-a-psychic-vampire)

lol:D

[David Jamieson]

I don't give qi theory buy in.

I take qi literally. as in:

1. Breath
2. transformative process to energy

I don't see it as something obscure. It is the air we breath that sustains us, it is also the energy that propels us.

It also is a working part of the transformative process such as conversion of food to energy and that resulting energy.

When it gets mystified beyond those, it gets turned into a complicated mess and I don't subscribe to all that stuff around it such as 5 phases, destruction/upholding etc etc. TO complex.

breath in/breath out
consume/transform

and when it's gone, you die.

[Lucas]

and when it's gone, you die.

speak for yourself :mad:

im going to transform into a poltergeist

[GeneChing]

We should install that as part of our forum membership application! :p

Rabbit punches (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=59666) may work this year against qi vampires. I've heard that the falcon punch (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=58207) is a better technique to subdue them, but I haven't dared to go there. I think it's another qi vampire trap.

[Lucas]

ya man its all about the iron bunny jab. the falcon punch is totally a qi vampire trap, you try that and you'll never see your arm past the elbow again! :eek:

[bawang]

if ur a christian and ur afraid of scary demon possesion by dancing and punching the air then train choy lee fut.
choy lee fut is christian kung fu dedicated to jesus.

i am a christian. people liek jdk arent real christians because they look down on other people and say lies about them. in the end god judge u man.

people like jdk always need a demon to fight. when they run out of demons they lose faith in jesus. thats not real faith at all. the demon is within themselves

christians should look at themselves. i think catholics worshipping mary like a godess is wrong. and orthodox worshipping paintings is also wrong.

[GeneChing]

But if that's the case, shouldn't it be called Choy Lay Jesus?

蔡李耶穌

;)

[JDK]

I too believe the Bible teaches us NOT to worship anything or anyone But God Himself.

Unfortunately...the true practice of Chinese Martial Arts includes religious worship. I wish it were NOT so !! I really loved the practice of Martial Arts, especially Chinese Traditional Arts !
The martial arts, as we understand them today, all come from the same source in ancient China. Many Christians do not realize this, and have no idea that many (but not all) schools and instructors teach a philosophical blend of Taoism (also called The Way) and Buddhism in their schools. In one guide to the esoteric martial arts, the author describes the "Buddha breath" used in meditative breathing as being couched in religious, mystical, and esoteric symbolism. The purpose is to demonstrate some aspect of the kundalini experience in martial arts.[1] Stimulating the kundalini or serpent power is a basic principle of Yoga. The thought process is a simple one for the modern Westerner taking martial arts; if the ancient Chinese monks achieved high levels of fighting skill, health, and enlightenment through breathing exercises, yogic movements, and spiritual philosophy, why not me? Indeed, it can be a subtle attraction for the undiscerning person.


Here are 3 links that provide more info...each must decide for themselves.

http://dangeryoga.blogspot.com/2010/05/ftnref1.html

http://www.uhpress.hawaii.edu/shopcore/978-0-8248-3491-3/

http://www.bukisa.com/articles/406555_religious-influences-on-chinese-martial-arts

[bawang]

ask old choy lee fut guys they will tell you their style was dedicated to the chinese christian taiping rebellion. i aint kidding around mang. jesus kung fu is for reals. choy lee fut is kosher bro.

the old chinese name for jesus was way cooler. it translated to "tree of god". but the protestants changed it into "coconut biscuit".

jdk you know that imagining a glowing light inside your body was a common meditation technique among christian hermit monks in the 3rd century? i guess the holy ancent desert fathers are satanic according to barbarian usurpers like you.

paul called jewish christians who tried to force circumcision and jewish rituals on romans "judaizer" roman christians today are romnanizers and confuse being white and european with being christian.

[JDK]

if ur a christian and ur afraid of scary demon possesion by dancing and punching the air then train choy lee fut.
choy lee fut is christian kung fu dedicated to jesus.

i am a christian. people liek jdk arent real christians because they look down on other people and say lies about them. in the end god judge u man.

people like jdk always need a demon to fight. when they run out of demons they lose faith in jesus. thats not real faith at all. the demon is within themselves

christians should look at themselves. i think catholics worshipping mary like a godess is wrong. and orthodox worshipping paintings is also wrong.


Wow...I knew my position would not be popular...but Bawang, you seem to be taking personal shots.

First...here is some history on Choy lee Fut

http://www.martialarm.com/history/choylayfut.html

Second...
I do not mean to incinuate that you or anyone else are not christians.
I do not look down on anyone.
And I need no 'demons to fight"...I simply must post truth and facts.

As I said...I come from a Biblical Worldview, and a belief that The Bible reveals the Truth to Mankind.
Jesus said He was The Way...The Truth...and The Life.

Check out the Links I posted when you can...and lets continue the discussion.

Peace

JDK

[curenado]

ask old choy lee fut guys they will tell you their style was dedicated to the chinese christian taiping rebellion. i aint kidding around mang. jesus kung fu is for reals. choy lee fut is kosher bro.

the old chinese name for jesus was way cooler. it translated to "tree of god". but the protestants changed it into "coconut biscuit".

jdk you know that imagining a glowing light inside your body was a common meditation technique among christian hermit monks in the 3rd century? i guess the holy ancent desert fathers are satanic according to barbarian usurpers like you.

paul called jewish christians who tried to force circumcision and jewish rituals on romans "judaizer" roman christians today are romnanizers and confuse being white and european with being christian.

There are times when you reallyare......... fun!

Are people seduced by the religion in martial arts? I was never taught kundalini as part of it, but that aside, (and doing my best to discern) there does not seem to be much that is anti-christian there - white christians go about as deep as demanding that you admit Christ is Lord. Beyond that they really have nothing much to say.
You know you have already lost when you tell them you believe or confess christ and.....it isn't good enough for them. When you do, they look at you accusingly and then want to talk some more. When they begin to push whichever cult doctrine they are following.

It is not all of them. But if your faith and god can be threatened by awareness and nature - that seems pretty weak to me and not about truth but enforced doctrine. People enforce doctrines as a way to cope with fear and perceived weakness and insecurity.

According to the law I thought demons were a lower life form and so therefor man says "Dribble off or I mught go ahead and smush you because I ain't Jesus" - he is created above such things and bears that dignity.

[curenado]

Original post:

<<Has anyone else ever been confronted with this kind of problem?>>

Yes. Primarily in town. Kansas City was full of black magicians for awhile some years ago...

<<An instructor in my area is calling on the demons, according to some of his students he has them meditate away from the light and into the dark to bring the power of the demons to them. Telling them after a certain level of training that it is the only way they can continue their training under him and it is the only way of reaching their true potentials. >>

I bet he tryin' to reach something alright....how come the devil guys always end up being about cheap dominance and "acceptable" guy sex? You watch......

<<When things like this get out, and it did in my comunity, it turns people away from Martial Arts thinking we all do the same things.>>

I don't think that is true - if it is, it is so dumb that perhaps they should be turned away lest they come up with some real power....

<<The # of people who would inquire about class dropped off considerably when some of his students started talking about what was going on.>>

I find it hard to believe that is the sole cause - MA is too saturated with all kinds of militaristic disciplines and philosophies in the public mind. One school trying to gain supremacy by a hoodwink does not change that overnight.

I am willing to bet things like economy and season may have just coincided with this.

But ok - if it is true then you have three choices

1 - Go right on as usual and ignore it
2 - Take up prayers against them
3 - Get your school. go down there and show them god baby!

But I never make much of any "experiments" like that unless something abusive or predatory is going on.
Out here though, abuse and predation are the other guys excuse to "get their predator on" with ideas of some abuse of their own.....

But it's hard to get upset over some aleister crowley boo-foo unless there are animals, minors or unwilling women involved.....

[KC Elbows]

Maybe you should switch to krav maga.

[GeneChing]

Honestly, the way things went today, I feel like I've just exorcised the forum. ;) (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?p=1077366#post1077366)

[Lucas]

what do you have against satanic ninja death cults gene? arent you equal opportunity?

[GeneChing]

Zombie ninja bloodhounds are another matter. They deserve qi vampire falcon punches.

[Lucas]

ROFL!!! and he brings it TRONG! sounds like you had kind of a crappy forum day lol

sorry for your loss?

[KC Elbows]

what do you have against satanic ninja death cults

Only when they do real ninja stuff, not like karate, or, what's that other one, starts with a k, kajukembo, no, kuuu, kuuu,

oh yeah, kalari pryat, I'm sick to death of satanic kalari prayat death cults trying to play themselves off as satanic ninja death cults in order to benefit from the exoticism of satanic ninja death cults.

[Lucas]

at least someone feels the same way i do.

[KC Elbows]

I hope we've made some headway in stopping all the demon summoning in kung fu.

[Lucas]

I feel like its been a successful day.

[gilbride100]

>if someone had a direct experience with one of them, then our perceptual apparatus is capable of experiencing them>

Yes, and people have been having direct experiences of spiritual entities for millenia. Yet, as David pointed out, if I experience something and you do not, why should you accept what I'm saying in the first place?

A fundamentalist says you should accept it on faith. A materialist says you should reject it on principle.

I disagree with both, because I agree with William James (author of "Varieties of Religious Experience") that such experiences are valid for the person who has them, but cannot be generalized to other people.

So, if you have a direct experience with something you perceive to be a spiritual entity, it's perfectly reasonable to take your own experience seriously. But no one else is obliged to take your experience on faith.

[ginosifu]

Unfortunately...the true practice of Chinese Martial Arts includes religious worship. I wish it were NOT so !! I really loved the practice of Martial Arts, especially Chinese Traditional Arts !

I would like to point out that not all traditional Chinese Kung Fu schools include religious worship. There are many schools that leave such matters up to each individual and do not push their personal beliefs on the students. Many schools like my own have students of all religions and faiths (or lack there of).

ginosifu

[Dale Dugas]

I for one have a spiritual practice and sometimes there are situations where the students will see this. It is explained that its a personal practice that has nothing to do with anyone but the person who is practicing.

Only those who are interested are instructed in said practice.

Like Gino mentioned, whatever your practices, is wonderful.

I teach a Taoist based system, and explain it as much.

Taoism is not a religion in the classical sense. Its a lifestyle/philosophy/health system.

[Northwind]

Taoism is not a religion in the classical sense. Its a lifestyle/philosophy/health system.

True indeed - but it definitely depends on what "type", branch, etc.. Much like original Buddhism was not a "religion" either...til you look at many of the different "types", branches, etc. out there today too.

[David Jamieson]

Well, the definition of religion is: "a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe"

So, Taoism and Buddhism are indeed religions by the very definition of what they are.

But, "religion" shouldn't be a bad word in my opinion and is getting too banged up with all the chit chat about what a great guy Chris Hitchens is. lol

Anyway, religion can be a good thing, corruption within it is of course always bad.

I don't mind seeing these things as religion, because I see them to be that.

I think Confucianism is more of the philosophy because it concerns itself mostly with the ethics and morality of the human condition and how to create and exist within an optimal society...at least that was the original idea.

there is not a lot in it beyond idle musings as far as gods and such go though.

Not so with Taoism and Buddhism which really does make an attempt at explaining the universe and our place within it and even gods and their attributes.

anyway... :) religion is not an inherently bad thing. Bad things are done in it's name, but hey, downright evil things are done in the name of patriotism, nationalism etc. Much more secular in scope and way more dangerous in many ways than a religion is or can be.

[pateticorecords]

I looked the demon straight in the eye and the f**ker started to puke;)

[Northwind]

Get a lil technical will ya David? :P
I guess I should have said that original Buddhism is not a theistic religion, but is more of a self-development program encompassing psychological, emotional and semi-spiritual progression.

[JDK]

If you do any serious research into CMA secret societies, underground Chinatown 'black society' and/or Taoism and Buddhism (all topics that come up pretty fast for anyone really into CMA research) the notion of demonic powers is quite prevalent. But there's a considerable cultural difference between the way that Chinese culture views such things, as opposed to Western culture. That's where your BS-o-meter alarm rings. There's plenty of resources on Chinese mythology/mysticism - find out if the master is basing his mysticism on a Chinese or a Western paradigm. If it's Western, then it's just some new age mumbo jumbo. If it's Eastern, you may want to re-examine it a little further, just to see what's going on. I wouldn't just write it off to bad crazies right away.

You'd be surprised how many great grandmasters believe in Chinese mysticism. I've heard some amazing tales, straight from masters that are well respected here, but not the kind of thing they would want repeated in public. There are more things on heaven and earth....

I appreciate your post Gene.

Here is a testimony from one who left the Martial Arts, and while I do not accept all of what he says...he does bring up some good points.
Try to read the important parts about the spiritual side and Worldview of the Origins and pratice of the Martial Arts....and ignore the stuff you dont like.

http://hubpages.com/hub/kungfuchristian

[mooyingmantis]

Well, the definition of religion is: "a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe".

Whose definition David? A dictionary definition of religion is not necessarily THE definition of religion. Religion is experienced on an individual basis and therefore is not so easily defined. Kind of reminds me of something a wise man once wrote: "The Tao that can be named, is not the true Tao".


>if someone had a direct experience with one of them, then our perceptual apparatus is capable of experiencing them>

Yes, and people have been having direct experiences of spiritual entities for millenia. Yet, as David pointed out, if I experience something and you do not, why should you accept what I'm saying in the first place?

A fundamentalist says you should accept it on faith. A materialist says you should reject it on principle.

I disagree with both, because I agree with William James (author of "Varieties of Religious Experience") that such experiences are valid for the person who has them, but cannot be generalized to other people.

So, if you have a direct experience with something you perceive to be a spiritual entity, it's perfectly reasonable to take your own experience seriously. But no one else is obliged to take your experience on faith.

Very insightful!

[GeneChing]

Here is a testimony from one who left the Martial Arts, and while I do not accept all of what he says...he does bring up some good points.
Try to read the important parts about the spiritual side and Worldview of the Origins and pratice of the Martial Arts....and ignore the stuff you dont like.

http://hubpages.com/hub/kungfuchristian
"In the Name of the Lord Jesus Christ, I command Satan to leave."

Wow, that's cool. I wonder if I can make that work...

"In the Name of the Lord Buddha, I command trolls to leave."

Did it work?

[Lucas]

I find your lack of faith disturbing.

http://communitiesonline.homestead.com/files/troll_2.jpg

[mooyingmantis]

This (demons) was actually a training method used here in Akron.

I recieved my info second hand, so maybe some local lurkers will chime in and provide some substance.

My friend D ick Pitts was involved in this. He practiced it and taught it to some of his closest friends/students. They told me that they believed it made them invulnerable.
This is not second hand knowledge. They told me directly of their involvement in it.

[David Jamieson]

Whose definition David? A dictionary definition of religion is not necessarily THE definition of religion. Religion is experienced on an individual basis and therefore is not so easily defined. Kind of reminds me of something a wise man once wrote: "The Tao that can be named, is not the true Tao".



Very insightful!

Linguistically speaking all words have definitions and usage.
Religion is a word and the usage of it is in context to the dictionary defuinition.

When is religion not "a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe"?

Pick a religion, any religion and it is that wouldn't you say? I'm open to there being outliers of course, there always is, but the very definition of religion is not connected to god or gods either but indeed can be inclusive of that.

People who work with concepts garnered from religious bodies of thought is fine with me, but I still recognize that those ideas are founded within religious thought.

I simply believe it is erroneous to state that Taoism or Buddhism for that matter are not religions as they are widely practiced as such. Perhaps they fall more to religio-philosophy here in the West and that likely has more to do with lack of translated materials being too widely spread and so there can be the risk of a very supeficial view, or segmented view with depth.

I agree that within a given religion, the definitions around spirituality, the soul, god or gods or no gods, can be very wide and solely applicable to one and not another though. If that's your meaning, I totally agree.

*edited for spelling :)

[B.Tunks]

Here is some food for thought....although I KNOW it will not be popular....

MARTIAL ARTS - ROOTED IN THE OCCULT
The Martial Arts are more than just a method of self-defense or a system of health exercises. They actually involve a life philosophy derived from eastern religions. The testimonies of Karatekas a devout practitioner of karate or other forms of martial arts do not hide the fact that the martial arts are more than just a sport.
"Karatedo another form of karate is an art and I teach it as a way of being, a way of life, as a method of developing one's self, and not as a sport," states one teacher. Karate is not a fighting sport. This was completely misconstrued by people of this country where it was taken and turned into a sport.

There are many conflicting theories regarding the origin of the martial arts. The account stated here is a widely accepted survey that traces the general history of the martial arts and goes back too the dawn of civilization in India. Three millennia ago in China, the arts were developed even more extensively. By the establishment of the Feudal States in 770 B.C., Kung fu was widely practiced.

In 1928 they were renamed War Arts and were awarded national recognition. Over the centuries various aspects of the arts were modified and eventually evolved into more or less violent types.

Northern and Southern schools and hard and soft forms also developed. Kung fu was the original all inclusive term describing the martial arts. Later, specific names were applied to its variations: karate, tai chi, judo, jujitso, and aikido.

In Korea, the arts were known as Te Kwon Do. They were honed into their highest forms of proficiency in Okinawa.

Though one often thinks of the arts as made in Japan, they have many roots and cultural variations. The original religious philosophy of Kung fu dates back as far as 2696 B.C., where it was rooted in the Occult forms of divination known as the I-Ching and the book of Changes. Lao-Tse, the Chinese sage born in 604 B.C., added further embellishments. His teachings were set forth in a 5,280 word manuscript called Tao Te Chang, also known as " the Tao" or "the Way".

He taught salvation could not be found in prayer but rather by the observance of nature, the natural way.

As the trees bend with the wind, and rivers follow the path of least resistance, so must man adapt to the rhythm with evil and wrong. The next development in history of Kung fu took place when a monk named Bodhidharma brought Buddhism to China in sixth century A.D. When he discovered the monks sleeping during his lectures, he introduced exercises to assist them in meditation.

Known as I-Ching Sutura, his system combined Kung fu with the philosophical principle of Zen to develop a highly sophisticated form of weaponless fighting. The monks at his Shaolin temple became famous for their savage abilities of defense which they employed whenever they were attacked in the course of pilgrimages. Eventually two schools of martial arts evolved; Ch'uan Fe (Kung fu) based on the hard (external) school of Buddhism, and other arts founded on the soft (internal) school of Taoism. Martial arts have evolved into six basic forms by which they are known. In the Western world they are known as: Kung Fu, Tai Chi Ch'uan, Karate, Akido, Judo and Jujitsu.

Such Occult experimentation is forbidden in The Bible
. Karate works by inducing a passivity in the mind setting the stage for a type of self-hypnosis. A demon then enters and gives supernatural strength and power. Karate teachers call this "going into perfection." Kung Fu which is rooted in Zen Buddhism, was popularized by a TV series of that name. Bruce Lee movies (Enter the Dragon; Way of the Dragon; Return of the Dragon; Game of Death) also spread this occult science across the nation.

Spirits of Murder, Hatred, Pride, Bitterness, Depression, Resentment, Fear, Violence, Lust for Power, Lust for (green, brown or black) Belts, Sexual Lust, Fighting, Rage, Destruction, Suicide, Sadism and Masochism are some of the spirits commonly found in those who have trained in Martial Arts. Some of the more heavily possessed individuals have also become very adept at Mind control, Telepathy, Telekinetic, Mind reading, Astral projection and Soul travel under the leadership of demonic guides.


There is so much inaccurate bullsh.it in this post that it must be a joke, if not - written by an 11 year old mentally impaired kid.

[David Jamieson]

There is so much inaccurate bullsh.it in this post that it must be a joke, if not - written by an 11 year old mentally impaired kid.

Indeed it is highly inaccurate and riddled with complete errors. I think someone's been indoctrinated!

cool!


oommmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm.

[bawang]

I do not mean to incinuate that you or anyone else are not christians.

im insinuating YOU are not a real christian. you failed to resist the urge to stroke your ego and argue with unbelievers.

[taai gihk yahn]

im insunuating YOU are not a real christian.

http://theawesomeblog.net/wp-content/uploads/2010/11/nudge.jpg

[David Jamieson]

http://theawesomeblog.net/wp-content/uploads/2010/11/nudge.jpg

I can't help myself, say no more. Nudge nudge, wink wink, how's your mother?

[KC Elbows]

Taoism as a continuation of earlier Chinese religious practices, complete with taoist immortals and all the religious aspects of those earlier traditions exists.

Taoism as a philosphical practice that, while extolling the virtues of long life, does not accept immortals and religious elements into the practice, also exists.

The version of the Zhuangzi that exists today was edited by a philosophical taoist by removing later additions that were mystical in nature, but were never part of the original.

The author of the inner chapters of the zhuangzi, as well as a great number of other works of philosophical taoism, openly laugh at seeking mystical longevity and similar things.

There is not one taoism, but the two main branches are mystical and philosophical, respectively, and the latter does not extoll supernatural ideals, but holds them as being exactly the opposite of the philosophy of taoism, denying the way that life leads to death is merely fear of a thing that is natural to all life, and missing the value of that thing.

[taai gihk yahn]

Taoism as a continuation of earlier Chinese religious practices, complete with taoist immortals and all the religious aspects of those earlier traditions exists.

Taoism as a philosphical practice that, while extolling the virtues of long life, does not accept immortals and religious elements into the practice, also exists.

The version of the Zhuangzi that exists today was edited by a philosophical taoist by removing later additions that were mystical in nature, but were never part of the original.

The author of the inner chapters of the zhuangzi, as well as a great number of other works of philosophical taoism, openly laugh at seeking mystical longevity and similar things.

There is not one taoism, but the two main branches are mystical and philosophical, respectively, and the latter does not extoll supernatural ideals, but holds them as being exactly the opposite of the philosophy of taoism, denying the way that life leads to death is merely fear of a thing that is natural to all life, and missing the value of that thing.

excellent post; very relevant to this (http://kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?p=1077770&posted=1#post1077770) topic as well

[KC Elbows]

excellent post; very relevant to this (http://kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?p=1077770&posted=1#post1077770) topic as well

That is why my posts are timeless, will stand forever, and are better than the posts of others, because of the deep and profound nature of my Tao, which I wear with humility, like a mink.

[Northwind]

...which I wear with humility, like a mink.
OMG I love it!
Hilarious!

[David Jamieson]

I had no idea mink were humble.
I thought they just hissed, capered and pranced a lot and smell like oily ****.

go figure...