Wing chun side kick vs. the traditional CMA side kick

[SAAMAG]

For those of you that have trained in other methods of kicking, be it from a chinese source or not, how do you feel the wing chun/tsun side kick effectiveness fairs against the more traditional methods of side kicking?

To elaborate, my side kick (through TKD, Shaolin, Sanshou, and like arts) was to raise the knee of the kick, and jam it straight into it's target from the chambered position, concentrating on penetration and power vs. the snappy surface kicking habits of some. The supporting leg was flat footed with the toes pointed away from the target, weight either on the k1 or the heel or the entire foot depending on stylistic preferences. The contacting foot held parallel or inverted to the floor, and the contact point being the heel or the heel edge.

The wing chun side kicks I've learned from the various lineages are brought up straight from the ground to the target, with little to none of the traditional chambering of the leg. The hips do not rotate as deep as the previous method, and the kicking foot therefore would usually be parallel to the floor or pointed slightly upwards. Contact point being the heel edge or heel, with the supporting leg weight on the heel or entire foot and the toes I've seen from pointing perpendicular to the target to slightly towards the target, and at times I've seen some wing chun players do it with the toes slightly pointed away, but not many.

Now with the target levels put aside, and dealing strictly with the mechanics...how do you feel the effectiveness of the kicks compare with one another? What method do you usually employ?

[Mr Punch]

The chambered one you just described seems to be very similar if not the same as one which is present in at least one lineage of wing chun (from a teacher who was a direct student of Yip Man who as far as I know has only done wing chun).

It starts from bong gerk, and brings the knee right across the body, the angle keeping centre line, so that the knee can serve as a deflection before the the kick goes out. The kick has the same contact points you mention, and the supporting foot is largely flat footed, with slight emphasis on K1 (I'll ask the teacher to clear this up) for the final pivot as you drive the kick in. The supporting foot is pointing away from the opponent, so it's in effect kind of like a back kick.

I've been working on this a lot since I was taught it a few weeks ago, but have yet to use it in chi sao or sparring. It's supposed to work at a distance or to keep distance...

as opposed to the following which are all close up...

The bong gerk from my own lineage is more direct: ie it doesn't go across the body. The knee keeps centreline, and squeezes over the nuts before the kick goes out. It goes very directly out, so it's like the action of the disappearing bong sao in my lineage... ie the bong part is only there for a split second before the kick. If you don't know what to look for this sometimes looks like the direct side kick you also mentioned.

The direct side kick in my lineage is pretty much as you mentioned. I find it's not as stable as a chambered one, but it's faster and less-telegraphed, and very accurate for hitting low targets like the ankles, shins or knees, or combos if you are lucky enough (or your skilfully enough positioned) to get the chance to pull them off.

Then there's the stamp kick which is good on the outside, and goes more like the bong gerk, but you turn a little sideways to the opponent. This one I never do unless I've bridged his arm/arms, as it lends itself very easily to follow-up with a throw.

[Mr Punch]

BTW the bong gerk from my lineage, the direct side-kick and the stamp all come from a forty-five degree back foot in the way I was taught.

[mortal]

There both good in different situations depends on the user.

I did notice if you could do a great chambered sidekick(shaolin, karate). Chances are you could do a great wingchun sidekick as soon as you learn it. But if you could do a good wing chun sidekick it would still take a couple of years to learn the chambered kick correctly.

[AmanuJRY]

I was taught not to chamber and, for the most part, I like that method.

Van, what is your experience in sparring with the chambered kick?
Have you ever had a chambered kick 'stuffed' (pinned/intercepted while chambered)?

[SAAMAG]

Personally, no I have yet to experience that.

My "chambering" side kick is the typical kick you would see in any other kicking art aside from wing chun. In the beginning (a looong time ago) I used to use it mainly as a turning side kick from TKD, that scored a lot, I'd be able to hit hit people under their jaws with that at close range. Needless to say over the years I've grown wiser and know that moves like that in "real" life aren't all that smart. Fast forward a couple years later, and I started using the kick with the lead leg, usually to the mid section or lower, sometimes stepping sometimes not. That has given me the highest success rates in both speed and power. It's really all about placement.

Just like any technique in wing chun, I don't perform the side kick, it comes out when necessary. So when I hit it...I do so when I can HIT IT. Usually it's done as an intercepting kick, or a follow up attack. If it hits the ribs...something is going to fly or break.

That's how I use that kick. I'm not boasting, but if that kick is done correctly and timed right, even a girl weighing a buck ten can break through ribs.

I suppose the kick can easily be jammed, again if the timing is right for the other person, it's all about attributes and who reacts better faster.

[AmanuJRY]

Originally posted by Vankuen
I suppose the kick can easily be jammed, again if the timing is right for the other person, it's all about attributes and who reacts better faster.

True.

I don't have that much experience with it either. Mostly because the sparring I have done has been, for the most part, after I started WC.

THEORETICALLY, skipping the chambering part would make the kick faster and easier to time.

[SAAMAG]

Well, I feel the sanshou style side kick is a much more powerful technique, and just as fast...the only thing is it put's one totally out of the wing chun framework; that may be a concern for some people, but not for me.

[anerlich]

We do sidekicks with a chamber, albeit very quick and not overemphasised and ALWAYS setting it up with hands or by drawing, e.g. as a stop-hit. After a while you can sort of chamber as you kick - IMO for an effective side kick the knee must be elevated first.

My instructor and one of my seniors can hit just about anybody with a stop side kick as they try to bridge, so "lack of delivery speed" is a non issue.

Effiectiveness != delivery speed.

[SAAMAG]

Exactly! In my mind the best methods for that kick are to intercept or to finish. It's just too powerful a technique and too sideways (puts the upper body too far from the opponent's) to be able to mix it in during bridging, gor sao, what have you. I guess that's why we see the wing chun side kick developing the way it has because it can be used during bridging effectively.

[anerlich]

I guess that's why we see the wing chun side kick developing the way it has because it can be used during bridging effectively.

Well, we don't do a "Wing Chun Side Kick" at all if that is the case. Even with the close kicks on the dummy we are side on to the opponent.

Bridging is not the totality of Wing Chun, or of H2H fighting.

[Phil Redmond]

We do sidekicks with a chamber, albeit very quick and not overemphasised and ALWAYS setting it up with hands or by drawing, e.g. as a stop-hit. After a while you can sort of chamber as you kick - IMO for an effective side kick the knee must be elevated first.

My instructor and one of my seniors can hit just about anybody with a stop side kick as they try to bridge, so "lack of delivery speed" is a non issue.

Effiectiveness != delivery speed.
Andrew is on the money with regards to the TWC sidekick. I'll also add that we use the heel.
PR

[old jong]

Tabarnak! what happened to our forum?... :eek:

Well,about the wang gerk...(IMO) Since my knee is already bent (from the stance) I only have to lift the leg while extending it.No more chambering than that is necessary for me.

[anerlich]

Good point about the heel, Phil. Only possible exception is the "shin scrape" with the side of the foot in the 11th dummy set, but even that ends with a heel stomp to the metatarsals.

To each his/her own, but the muscles that lift the leg for the sidekick are small in relation to its weight. Leverage-wise, it's more efficient/effective to lift the leg with the knee bent and then extend it rather than try to lift while straightening.

FWIW, we had one of those Impax bags which can measure kicking speed (before it broke). We experimented with a class one day; at EVERY level, from beginner to elite, the side kick (with chamber and full side on hip extension) hit the target faster than the front kick. Experimentation says this is not a slow technique; but once again, delivery speed is only one possible parameter of kicking effectiveness.

[old jong]

To each his own but,I prefer to kick at shin,knee or hip level and there is nothing faster than a Wing Chun kick for that kind of usage.
IMO,the Wing Chun kicks work the same as the punches.Do you chamber your hands before punching?...They both start from a ready position to cover the most direct route.
I know that Karate,TKD and other styles do differently.

[anerlich]

IMO,the Wing Chun kicks work the same as the punches.

Why are there both side and front kicks then, but not side and front punches? I disagree in any case, the arm and leg, punch and kick, have different capabilities and limitations.


Do you chamber your hands before punching?...They both start from a ready position to cover the most direct route.

IMO the analogy is inappropriate. Unless you hop around on one leg, your "ready position" is with your foot on the floor. Nothing like punching from the WC guard. For reasons mentioned earlier, I believe that the most efficient route from there for the kick is to lift the knee, then extend the leg.

A straight line might be the shortest distance between two points, but not necessarily the fastest or the means that arrives at the greatest velocity or best structure for dealing impact force.

[SAAMAG]

To each his own but,I prefer to kick at shin,knee or hip level and there is nothing faster than a Wing Chun kick for that kind of usage.
IMO,the Wing Chun kicks work the same as the punches.Do you chamber your hands before punching?...They both start from a ready position to cover the most direct route.
I know that Karate,TKD and other styles do differently.

Anyway...though the wing chun kicks work the same as wing chun punches as far as efficiency...why do so many other lineages of wing chun (from Duncan leung to Leung Ting/Emin boztepe for examples) teach raising the knee high to slam the heel down after? Because of the power delivery. Those particular lineages deal more with practicing the kicks while moving, and using high impact methodology. Could be something there...maybe not.

I've found that the wing chun kick and punch are indeed fast, direct, and effective (relatively speaking), but I've also found the traditional side kick and the right cross (for example) to be just as fast physically and much much more powerful.

So then is it better to be fast and efficient or fast and effective?

[old jong]

Anerlich-
I know you get my idea.You are free to disagree for you own reasons but there is no need to ridiculise my point.
Vankuen-
The Wing Chun kicks are effective but,there are martial arts that focus more on kicks than others.Your own tastes are the deciding factor.

[anerlich]

I know you get my idea.You are free to disagree for you own reasons but there is no need to ridiculise my point.

How exactly did I ridicule you or your arguments? I did not. Explain yourself, please.

[old jong]

The "hopping around on one leg" is more a TKD strategy than Wing Chun.I too see the kicking "ready position" as having both feet on the ground.It is just that I prefer to not add any extra moves for kicking.The leg is already bent a little so it needs only to extend as it is lifting.
IMO,Wing Chun strategy should use low to medium high kicks only in order to keep balance and hand/feet coordinated usage.
I know that some more athletic kind people like to do differently but I still believe that efficienty and economy is more in accord with Wing Chun's principles.
To each their own.

BTW,the turning chum kiu kick (with the lan sau) may feel not very powerful at the beginning but it grows with practice.Many things in Wing Chun need to be well trained and understood to be effective.

[SAAMAG]

...Many things in Wing Chun need to be well trained and understood to be effective.

That's for **** sure. Maybe that's why a lot of people forego wing chun training after a short while and switch to some "proven" method like MT or BJJ or whatever else is on reality TV these days.

Don't get me wrong, I cross train as well...but I admit that wing chun's techniques aren't going to be able to be put to use as quickly (and successfully) as the more conventional fighting arts.

[old jong]

Vankuen-
I agree with you on this:Most things are easier to learn and to render effective fast than Wing Chun,if you want to go past the charging chain punches level.
But this is what I like about Wing Chun.I have no ambitions of being a MMA or ultimate fighter type.I don't care if I can be beat.(everybody can be beat anyway)I just want to go as far as possible in my chosen art.I take the risk of not being a boxer,muay thai or BJJ or whatever to put all my efforts on Wing Chun.It is just my personal choice.

[Edmund]

That's for **** sure. Maybe that's why a lot of people forego wing chun training after a short while and switch to some "proven" method like MT or BJJ or whatever else is on reality TV these days.

Don't get me wrong, I cross train as well...but I admit that wing chun's techniques aren't going to be able to be put to use as quickly (and successfully) as the more conventional fighting arts.

You're presuming that Andrew's way of doing a sidekick is somehow not WC for some reason. Just because you learnt it a particular way from whatever lineages doesn't make your way THE wing chun sidekick.

[SAAMAG]

You're presuming that Andrew's way of doing a sidekick is somehow not WC for some reason. Just because you learnt it a particular way from whatever lineages doesn't make your way THE wing chun sidekick.

Ed what the heck are you talking about? I didn't presume anything about anyone's kick. Are you sure you're talking to the right person?

And as far as wing chun kicks being different from one lineage to the next, I already mentioned that when I rhetorically asked OJ about his wing chun kick not chambering, when in fact other lineages do chamber...

Sooo I don't think you're addressing the right person with that reply...

[old jong]

You're presuming that Andrew's way of doing a sidekick is somehow not WC for some reason. Just because you learnt it a particular way from whatever lineages doesn't make your way THE wing chun sidekick.


Just a question: Does putting a karate or muay thai kick in Wing Chun make those kicks Wing Chun kicks? IMO they are not part of the Wing Chun system but part of some individual's own mix of martial arts.
The Wing chun kicks are a complement to the hands and work well at the same distance.
I assume that most major Yip Man lineages use the non chambering kicks,unless they recieved some outside additives somewhere down the line.These days,some Wing Chun lines may contain more stuff from other styles than original Wing Chun.

[Edmund]

Ed what the heck are you talking about? I didn't presume anything about anyone's kick. Are you sure you're talking to the right person?

And as far as wing chun kicks being different from one lineage to the next, I already mentioned that when I rhetorically asked OJ about his wing chun kick not chambering, when in fact other lineages do chamber...

Sooo I don't think you're addressing the right person with that reply...

You stated in your original post that the wing chun side kicks you learned from the various lineages are brought up straight from the ground to the target, with little to none of the traditional chambering of the leg.

[anerlich]

BTW,the turning chum kiu kick (with the lan sau) may feel not very powerful at the beginning but it grows with practice.Many things in Wing Chun need to be well trained and understood to be effective.

If I do the same kick in my form, then it's done with a knee elevation and slight chamber, at a downward angle which you can't achieve without lifting the knee first.

I agree that things need to well trained and understood, my seniors in the system did exactly that and ended up with the kick I have described. It works just fine in punching range.

As far as TWC goes, my sidekick is THE Wing Chun sidekick. It appears in the dummy forms with a variety of upper gate/limb bridges. YMMV, I never said your way was crap, I just gave reasons I kick the way I do and not another way.

Are you going to tell me how I allegedly ridiculed you, OJ? Or was that like the true WC side kick you thought I wouldn't see?

[old jong]

If I do the same kick in my form, then it's done with a knee elevation and slight chamber, at a downward angle which you can't achieve without lifting the knee first.

I agree that things need to well trained and understood, my seniors in the system did exactly that and ended up with the kick I have described. It works just fine in punching range.

As far as TWC goes, my sidekick is THE Wing Chun sidekick.

Are you going to tell me how I allegedly ridiculed you, OJ? Or was that like the true WC side kick you thought I wouldn't see?

IMO,the downward kick work very well after a bong gerk,when the leg is already up and the knee bent.It is just a question of using the right things at the right moment.
I will not argue about your lineage particularities.It is different from the mainstream way as I know it.
You did not ridiculised me but you brought this "hopping on one leg" example when in fact you knew exactly what I was talking about.I'm sure you know very well how mainstream Wing Chun lines do things.

[Edmund]

Just a question: Does putting a karate or muay thai kick in Wing Chun make those kicks Wing Chun kicks? IMO they are not part of the Wing Chun system but part of some individual's own mix of martial arts.
The Wing chun kicks are a complement to the hands and work well at the same distance.
I assume that most major Yip Man lineages use the non chambering kicks,unless they recieved some outside additives somewhere down the line.These days,some Wing Chun lines may contain more stuff from other styles than original Wing Chun.

Perhaps that's not a good assumption. I wouldn't make the distinction between original Wing Chun or not, since it's quite vague as to what the original techniques actually looks like.

If I were a stickler for evidence, there is 8mm black and white footage of Yip Man doing the 3 forms and dummy. ( I think the video it's on is called "Original Wing Chun" funnily enough.) He's not kicking straight up from the ground on the dummy leg, IIRC.

I could quite as easily say that the chambered kick is the original WC and other poor saps have the outside additives somewhere down the line since they don't chamber their kicks. I prefer the original WC way of chambering the kick just like Yip Man because it's so mechanically correct rather than that other non chambering mutation which is totally weak etc etc..

[old jong]

Perhaps that's not a good assumption. I wouldn't make the distinction between original Wing Chun or not, since it's quite vague as to what the original techniques actually looks like.

If I were a stickler for evidence, there is 8mm black and white footage of Yip Man doing the 3 forms and dummy. ( I think the video it's on is called "Original Wing Chun" funnily enough.) He's not kicking straight up from the ground on the dummy leg, IIRC.

I could quite as easily say that the chambered kick is the original WC and other poor saps have the outside additives somewhere down the line since they don't chamber their kicks. I prefer the original WC way of chambering the kick just like Yip Man because it's so mechanically correct rather than that other non chambering mutation which is totally weak etc etc..

It's your own opinion.what could I say?...Make it work for you.

[SAAMAG]

You stated in your original post that the wing chun side kicks you learned from the various lineages are brought up straight from the ground to the target, with little to none of the traditional chambering of the leg.


OOHHH....well just as OJ stated, most lineages of wc kick without chambering the knee, albeit some do as I just mentioned, however the kick seems to always (regardless of lineage) come out kind of in a quasi half side - half front kick. (from what I've done and seen) The other thing is the placement of the supporting foot, it's almost never pointing back (which is the proper method to maintain balance with a full on side kick) Now if one is bridging, that's understandable...because you're using his two legs and your one for support while kicking.

The other kick I was talking about was something you would see in TKD or Sanshou, the more sidelong side kick from other arts. I'm comparing those two.

[anerlich]

You did not ridiculised me but you brought this "hopping on one leg" example when in fact you knew exactly what I was talking about.I'm sure you know very well how mainstream Wing Chun lines do things.

Jeez, and I thought you might have been complaining about "why are there not front and side punches then?" :rolleyes:

I stand by what I said. When not kicking, the leg is used to support your weight, and IMO not in the optimal position to deliver a kick - in TWC, raising the knee first allows the kick to be delivered direct to the target with the greatest efficiency. The legs have to do double duty. With hands, they can be in the position ready to strike or defend.

BTW, TWC is a mainstream Wing Chun line.

[old jong]

BTW, TWC is a mainstream Wing Chun line.

I stand modified! :rolleyes:

[Edmund]

OOHHH....well just as OJ stated, most lineages of wc kick without chambering the knee, albeit some do as I just mentioned, however the kick seems to always (regardless of lineage) come out kind of in a quasi half side - half front kick. (from what I've done and seen) The other thing is the placement of the supporting foot, it's almost never pointing back (which is the proper method to maintain balance with a full on side kick) Now if one is bridging, that's understandable...because you're using his two legs and your one for support while kicking.

The other kick I was talking about was something you would see in TKD or Sanshou, the more sidelong side kick from other arts. I'm comparing those two.

I understand that you're making a comparison. I'm just not agreeing that the quasi-half-front kick is indicative of what "mainstream" WC lineages do since there's a fair amount of variety within WC.

Currently it seems like an accusation of non-conformity to the mainstream is a type of insult. If Andrew learnt a WC sidekick a particular way that's different, so what? It's got nothing to do with switching to karate or TKD strategy or whatever other snide remark.

[old jong]

I understand that you're making a comparison. I'm just not agreeing that the quasi-half-front kick is indicative of what "mainstream" WC lineages do since there's a fair amount of variety within WC.

Currently it seems like an accusation of non-conformity to the mainstream is a type of insult. If Andrew learnt a WC sidekick a particular way that's different, so what? It's got nothing to do with switching to karate or TKD strategy or whatever other snide remark.

There are no insults! Just pointing out differences.What is wrong?

[Edmund]

There are no insults! Just pointing out differences.What is wrong?

It's the passive aggressive attitude that "it's not Wing Chun but it's OK for others who are not as dedicated as my humble self".

"Just a question: Does putting a karate or muay thai kick in Wing Chun make those kicks Wing Chun kicks? "

"These days,some Wing Chun lines may contain more stuff from other styles than original Wing Chun."

"I take the risk of not being a boxer,muay thai or BJJ or whatever to put all my efforts on Wing Chun."

If you could justify why you would do a quasi half side - half front kick without the snobby attitude that'd be great.

[old jong]

It's the passive aggressive attitude that "it's not Wing Chun but it's OK for others who are not as dedicated as my humble self".

"Just a question: Does putting a karate or muay thai kick in Wing Chun make those kicks Wing Chun kicks? "

"These days,some Wing Chun lines may contain more stuff from other styles than original Wing Chun."

"I take the risk of not being a boxer,muay thai or BJJ or whatever to put all my efforts on Wing Chun."

If you could justify why you would do a quasi half side - half front kick without the snobby attitude that'd be great.

I'm really too snob to give you an answer.