Xin Yi / Xing Yi where forth art thou?

[Sal Canzonieri]

here's a frustrating thread I have in the KF research, if anyone has any input, I'd love to discuss it:

1- What did Ji Long Feng (Ji Ji Ke) learn exactly?
2 - Who really were his students?
3- What are the roots of Xin yi ? Xing Yi?
4 - Where did the various forms from the various styles come from?


Question 2 is a bone of contention for a lot of people.
There seems to be no real evidence that he taught anyone of the 3 people that are attributed to be his direct students.

Cao Ji Wu there is no real link whatsoever, only in passing legend, erroneously passed from one Xing Yi teacher to another.
He might not even had been in the area to have had contact. He is not featured in the local historical gazettes.

Ma Xueli of Loyang, people from his city say he did not learn from Ji Long Feng, that a "wandering Taoist" visited him and passed on what became Xin Yi Liu Ho style of Henan Province (this Liu Ho is not the same as what is generally known as Six Harmony style, it is a Moslem style that is named after the six cornered hats they wear.).

And, there is the mystery of the Dai family style of Shanxi Province.
Dai Long Bang was said to have studied under Cao Ji Wu, which is untrue.
In fact, he learned the 10 Animals of Henan Xin Yi from Li Zheng, who was a student of Zhang Zhi Cheng, who was a student of Ma Xue Li.
Some martial arts historians claim that Cao Jiwu not only did not teach Xinyiquan to Dai Longbang, but was not related to Xinyiquan at all. The common believe that Cao was Dai Longbang’s teacher comes from another believe – that the "Introduction to Xinyiquan Boxing Manual" (Liu He Quan Xu) was written by Dai. However, there is no name below the text and there is no evidence Dai actually wrote it. While most Xingyiquan practitioners consider the "Introduction" to be a document of historical value, more and more researchers doubt its authenticity. Some even claim it is a forgery made out in Shanxi at the end of 19th century.

Dai Long Bang ladded the Five Elements and Three Fist forms to Henen 10 Animal Xin Yi to form: Dai Family Xin Yi Quan

Dai learned:

- Yi Quan of Shanxi Province, which is his family style, where the Five Elements and Three Fists forms come from originally.
These five elements are the same as in Shaolin Lohan 18 Hands forms (that's another thread!)

- Yue Fei style from Niu Xi Xian, who descends from Niu Gao, Yue Fei's Army Officer.

- Six Harmony Mantis from Jin Shi Kui, who was from Shandong Province. The Four Routines of Za Shi come from Jin Shi Kui.
I have looked him up on Mantis geneology charts and I have found him listed as a early found of Six Harmony Mantis, and that he traveled a lot and was missing from Shandong Province for many years, which of course is because he was in Shanxi teaching Dai Long Bang! That's a major piece of research that no one put two and two together about before!

- Henan Xin Yi Quan, 10 animal forms, which he learned from Li Zheng, who is of Ma Xue Li's lineage.

SO, that is how Xing Yi Quan got these forms into their system from Dai Long Bang's lineage.

[NorthernShaolin]

Sal,

Even though many of us practice Hsing-i here, this question should be moved to the Nei Jia section where many of the internal historians and theorians (deep thinkers? on this subject) hang out.

Questions 1 & 2 are really tough because not much if any has been written and preserved with time concerning him.

Question 3: well I'll let them (the Nei Jai guys) tell you what they believe.

Question 4: This can be answered because there are existing documents that I've read years ago that states where and when each of the various sets came to existance and also when Hsing-i started to branch out. I just can't remember where I read it.

[Sal Canzonieri]

Question 4, where did forms come from?

Well, the above explains where forms that decend from Dai family come from that eventually became the main core (Five Elements) of Xing Yi Quan of Hebei Province.

Henan Xin Yi is a real mystery.
It is not like other Xing Yi ? Xin Yi styles.
For sure it is various Moslem martial arts mixed with something new.
Around Henan province, Yue Fei Jia Quan and style with various names but the same style like Wu Mu Quan are practiced since Song/Yuan Dynasty times.
These style practice forms or loose techniques that are very similar to Liu Ho (Six Harmony Quan) forms that are found in other provinces. I think for some reason people started calling Yue Fei family forms as Six Harmony Quan, but they are the same stuff in essence.
Liu Di Kan for one example practiced Yue Fei forms and called the style Six Harmony.

One interesting thing:
Ba Qua and Xin Yi share many of the same moves (just called different names but they are the same exact moves).
Well, it is well documented now that Dong Hai Chuan's family style was Ba Fan Quan, that he practiced with his uncle, etc., also called Ba Shan Fan, also now called Fan Tzi Quan. A side by side comparison of moves and their names was done by research scholars and they were found to be identical.

Well, Zhou Tong, who was Yue Fei's teacher, taught a style that is Fan Tzi and Chuo Jiao Quan combined, as all his students attested.

Hence, the similarities of sharing identical moves and sequences in forms between Ba Qua and Xing Yi / Xin Yi, they both have their roots in Fan Tzi/Chuo Jiao.

Fantzi/Chuo Jiao which was a root of Yue Fei Family styles (Fan tzi mixed with various styles that army officer practiced from all over the place, mostly loose techniques and smal forms, of cannon fist like movements),
which then splintered over the centuries into Six Harmony, Henan Xin Yi, and Eagle Claw (when Yue Fei mixed back with Fan Tzi).

So, that is somehow how Yue Fei is credited to being the founder of Six Harmony Quan, Xing Yi, and Eagle Claw.
It's not that he was the actual founder, it's that his feedback loop with what came before and after his connection to Fan Tzi / Chuo Jiao Quan.

(here's an aside to Zhou Tong's Fan Tzi, the style of Yan Qing (also called Mi-Tsong or Lost Track Shaolin Quan), is when the forms are analyzed pretty much only Fan Tzi / Chuo Jiao and old Shaolin mixed together. Some of Zhou Tong's students are part of Yan Qing's lineage).

For another thread:
Tai Tzu, Han Tong Tong Bei, and Northern Mantis and Fan Tzi (and Yan Qing Shaolin) share not only many moves in their forms, but also people in their ancestry, all students of Zhou Tong.

[GeneChing]

...we have a piece on the Wu Gulun sect of Shaolin Xin Yi Ba coming out in our next issue. Maybe it's a good time to subscribe (http://store.martialartsmart.net/19341.html) ;)

[Sal Canzonieri]

Thanks, I will post it in both forums, so that the most people will be able to see it and respond.



Originally posted by NorthernShaolin
Sal,

Even though many of us practice Hsing-i here, this question should be moved to the Nei Jia section where many of the internal historians and theorians (deep thinkers? on this subject) hang out.

Questions 1 & 2 are really tough because not much if any has been written and preserved with time concerning him.

Question 3: well I'll let them (the Nei Jai guys) tell you what they believe.

Question 4: This can be answered because there are existing documents that I've read years ago that states where and when each of the various sets came to existance and also when Hsing-i started to branch out. I just can't remember where I read it.

[Sal Canzonieri]

Originally posted by GeneChing
...we have a piece on the Wu Gulun sect of Shaolin Xin Yi Ba coming out in our next issue. Maybe it's a good time to subscribe (http://store.martialartsmart.net/19341.html) ;)

I'm pretty sure that Shaolin Xin Yi Ba (and Lohan)
was what Zhou Tong studied when he went to Shaolin,
cause almost the whole Xin Yi Ba form's moves are inside
whole sections of Fan Tzi forms, their most oldest forms.
I'd say more than 80% of the moves in the forms are identical to each other.

[sambogin]

I do not know a lot about Xingyi and Xinyiba or even Wugulun but I came across the website of Master Shi Dejian and that of his disciples. There are some amazing videos on the website. I am not quite sure what he is demonstrating. What do you think? Any Xinyiba? I suppose that is unlikely given it is a bit of a close guarded secret.


www.shaolindj.com
www.freewebs.com/wugulun

[MasterKiller]

You'd probably be better served taking this question to http://www.emptyflower.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.cgi/YaBB.cgi

[r.(shaolin)]

sambogin

This is old school traditional northern Shaolin as we practice it - best seen in video 4.
I am sure, as in the tradition I practice, these are from two man sets which also
have counter sequences. Its great to see that at least some of the tradition of authentic
Shaolin has survived.

r.

[GeneChing]

I'm working on trying to get more on Shi Dejian's Xin Yi Ba lineage - something for the e-zine hopefully. You can contact Shi Dejian directly at wugulun@hotmail.com or sldy@shaolindj.com - you'll probably only get one of his disciples, but that's a start. Of course, they only speak mandarin...

[Sal Canzonieri]

The 18 Lohan Hands two person form, Lo Han Shi Ba Shou, (and a related set called 8 Step Linked Fist, Ba Bu Lian Quan)
is finally out on VCD and is available here:
http://www.plumpub.com/sales/vcd3/coll_huaboxing.htm

This 18 Lohan form is the one I have always been talking about.
This Hua Quan lineage claims that they created these forms.
But, I have some other books on the forms from China that say these
forms (18 Lohan Hands, 8 Step Linked Fist) are much older and among
Shaolin's oldest forms.

Now, interesting thing about the Hua Quan style is that their 5 Animals found in their forms are these: Tiger, Dragon, Leopard, Monkey, and Eagle.

I have learned this 18 Lohan Hands forms from three different sources, none of whom knew anything about Hua Quan claiming they created the form.
Each source taught me the forms the same way each time, no variations in the moves.

Okay, from what I see, since I also learned Sun Lu Tang Xing Yi and also some others styles of Xing Yi, I clearly see when I do this 18 Lohan form that the first five movements are the same in FUNCTIONALITY, all you have to do is slightly change the emphasis of the moves, of the Five Elements (in the more ancient pre-Xing Yi order): Pi, Zuan, Beng, Pao, and Heng (Metal, Water, Wood, Fire, and Earth).
Also, I can find almost all 12 animals that are found in Xing Yi in this form too, with slight variation. Hawk, Tiger, Horse, Eagle, Bear, Sparrow, Rooster, etc, all are hidden in the moves.

Now, the questions are:
- how old is this form really?
- if it is really old, is it possible that Ji Ji Ke/ Ji Long Feng, the founder of Xin Yi Quan
learned this 18 Lohan Hands and Xin Yi Ba from Shaolin to initiate his own style, and then his followers obviously have added to this to further develop his Xin Yi into the various regional versions and finally into Xing Yi Quan?

Also, my observations:
- The first move in this form, which I relate to Pi, is Eagle Seizes the Throat, and had two eagle claw grips. The move is done on the a left side and the right side at the beginning of the form.
- the second move, which I relate to Zuan, is a lot like Monkey is done in older XY styles. It is also like Crane is done in Five Animals style.
- the third move, which I relate to Beng is done like Leopard (Cat) in XY and 5 Animals.
- the fourth move, which I relate to Pao and is indeed called Pao Quan in this form, is done like Tiger in XY and 5 Animals.
- the fifth move, which I relate to Heng, is done like Dragon in older XY styles and is indeed called Dragon Subduing Hand in this form.

The rest of the moves also show a lot in common with the XY animal forms.

At r.(shaolin)'s site: he says that Bai Yu Feng created sets based on 10 animals (and 12 were to be created, but BYF didn't finish them). What are the 10-12 animals? Important because these sets were created before Ji Long Feng went to Shaolin.

[r.(shaolin)]

Hi Sal
According to our lineage, the 12 sets created by Venerable Jue Yuan and Qiu Yue Chan Shi use twelve stepping patterns (xing zou) and the following 10 animals.
Dragon
Tiger
Leopard
Crane
Snake
Pelican
Monkey
Elephant
Mustang/horse
Buffalo

r.

[Sal Canzonieri]

Hi Sal
According to our lineage, the 12 sets created by Venerable Jue Yuan and Qiu Yue Chan Shi use twelve stepping patterns (xing zou) and the following 10 animals.
Dragon
Tiger
Leopard
Crane
Snake
Pelican
Monkey
Elephant
Mustang/horse
Buffalo

r.

Very interesting.
Never heard of pelican or buffalo forms, wish I could see them someday.

Do you know the name of the 12 sets?

Also, I am would love any info on Bai Yu Feng, such as his info about his supposed teacher being from Loyang and of the Ma family.
I wonder if this same Ma was an ancestor of the Ma family in Loyang that is famous for their XY?

Forgot to ask this: what about the 13 Claws form taught sometimes at Shaolin, that is attributed to Bai Yu Feng.

Also, do you know what forms are attributed to Li Su, who came to Shaolin with Bai Yu Feng?
I know that there are two totally different Da Hong Quan forms at Shaolin, one is the same style as their classic Xiao Hong Quan and barely ever taught any more.
The other is Da Hong Quan is what is commonly taught and this form is often attributed to Li Su.
Also, I heard that there is a Lohan form that is attributed to Li Su that has the five animals in it and it is nothing like the other lohan forms there.

Any input someone?

[r.(shaolin)]

Shen Long Xian Zhao;
Shen Long Chu Zha;
Shen Long San Bu/shen Long Bai Wei;
Wu Xing Hu Shou;
Wu Xing Long Shou;
Long Hu Zheng Sheng;
Shen Long Sheng Tian;
Shen Long Hua Shui;
Er Long Duo Zhu;
Shen Long Shi Er Bu;
Pan Long Gun;
Long Yin Jian

I know that Li Shu is mentioned in "Shaolin Si Ji" the Qing Dynasty compilation, our tradition makes no mention of him.

Bai Yu Feng came from Shensi Province, and while in secular life, he was already known as an expert in the narrow blade sword (i.e. jian). Note that in our tradition one of the 12 sets is a narrow blade set. I would guess that Bai Yu Feng must have been well educated because, according to our tradition, after becaming a monk at Shaolin, he worked there as a librarian.

r.

[Sal Canzonieri]

Are these "Long" as in Dragon?

I am very interested in the story of BaiYu Feng and Li Sou (and his son)
coming to Shaolin with Monk Juan.
I'd like to find out really happened and who taught what.

Also I am interested in what martial arts come out of Loyang.

[r.(shaolin)]

Yes "long" as in dragon.

Here is a bit more of the story as we know it in our Shaolin tradition.

Before coming to Shaolin Monastery BaiYu Feng had been a hermit and obtained the Dao. He was recruited by Venerable Jue Yuan to improve Shaolin wushu and teach there. Venerable Jue Yuan had to beg BaiYu Feng to come to the mountain because he was reluctant to do so at first.
Venerable Yuan Jue's, secular name was Yen. He trained in martial arts at Huashan (Xi Yue - Western Mountains for Daoists) in a long fist called Bai Ma Quan. These events are placed during the early years of the Yuan Dynasty. The training regime they developed was based on 'wu xing.'Even by this time all high level Shaolin sets incorporated both wuxing (five elements) and eight tetragrams.


The system they developed was designed to be comprehensive and characterized by both soft defensive and powerful offensive actions. One further characteristic was that the clenched fist was not included. It said that BaiYu Feng also helped in reestablishing an older Shaolin system called Hua Quan at Shaolin. Hua Quan also incorporated wuxing (five elements) and bagua (eight tetragram) stepping patterns.

r.

[Sal Canzonieri]

Ahah!
This makes some of what I have been investigating seems plausable.

The Shaolin 18 Lohan Hands form that I have been talking about has the five elements inside it. The Hua Quan lineage via the Cai family claim that this form is from Hua Quan, and they have released a VCD of the form.

If Monk Yuan had brought to Shaolin martial arts from Hua Quan and he worked with Lohan forms while at Shaolin, then there it is totally possible that this 18 Lohan Hands form is from at least his time period, or older if he brought it there from the Hua Quan tradition.

(What is Bai Ma Quan? I think this is White Horse Quan, which in Loyang there is the White Horse Daoist Temple, and from where Ma taught Monk Yuan his final lessons.) What if Bai Ma Quan is a tradition of the Ma Family in Loyang (who became Moslems?) and that is the real origin of Loyang XY, especially since there is no real proof that Ji Long Feng really taught anyone of Loyang.

AND, then since the 18 Lohan Hand form contains the Five Elements it could have spread somehow to XY. Maybe to the Ma family XY from Loyang.

Also, if Monk Zhou Tong learned from Shaolin during the early Sung dynasty (right at end of Yuan), then he would have his Shaolin forms all be incorporating the Five Elements. From Zhou Tong, the Ba Shan Fan (Fantzi / Chuo Jiao) was said to come from him and also Yue Fei Jia Quan as well.

Hence, some of the moves, stances, five elements, seen in some old Fantzi forms
spread to XY via Yue Fei Jia Quan, and that is the path from
Shaolin 18 Lohan to Ba Shan Fan to Yue Fei Jia Quan to Xin Yi Liu He Quan to
Xing Yi Quan.

[r.(shaolin)]

What is Bai Ma Quan?
That is right it means White Horse fist.
This is a long fist style and has many ground tumbling and fighting methods.

By the way Bai Ma Si is a Buddhist Temple. In fact it was the first Buddhist Temple in China, established in the year 68 AD. White Horse Temple has many stone tablets dating back to the Tang Dynasty. Outside there are two stone horses carved in the Song Dynasty.

r.

[Sal Canzonieri]

What is Bai Ma Quan?
That is right it means White Horse fist.
This is a long fist style and has many ground tumbling and fighting methods.

By the way Bai Ma Si is a Buddhist Temple. In fact it was the first Buddhist Temple in China, established in the year 68 AD. White Horse Temple has many stone tablets dating back to the Tang Dynasty. Outside there are two stone horses carved in the Song Dynasty.

r.

Cool, I am familiar with that info.

Now I am trying to work out the validity of the story of Monk Juan going to
Bai Ma Shi and furthering his studies before he died.
Supposedly, he received the preserved transmission of internal arts that used to be done at Shaolin and had died out by his time.

Also, that his teacher there was Bai Yu Feng's teacher.

And, I want to work out what Li Shou's contribution to Shaolin was.

Do you know about Bai Yu Feng developing the 13 Claws form that is done at Shaolin?

[r.(shaolin)]

Supposedly, he received the preserved transmission of internal arts that used to be done at Shaolin and had died out by his time.
Based on tradition this makes sense.


Also, that his teacher there was Bai Yu Feng's teacher.
Based on the differences of the Wu Xing sets and Bai Ma sets(at least in our tradition) and verbal traditions from a number of different sources I think not.


Do you know about Bai Yu Feng developing the 13 Claws form that is done at Shaolin
Have you seen this set? If you have, is it a short set made up of 13 techniques?

As far as Bai Ma Quan. We do two sets – one of which a two person contact set. The names of these sets are Bai Ma Xia Shan and Bai Ma Shuang Yan. Both these sets, according to our tradition, are connected to Venerable Yuan Jue and Hua Shan. Both sets reference two horses as does the traditional history of the sets refer to two horses. This to my mind, supports the Bai Ma Si connection. I understand that Tien Shan Pai a northern style which originated in northwestern China also has a set called Bai Ma Xia Shan. Have you seen it?
They also do Xiao Hong Quan. I wonder what their set is like.
r.

[Sal Canzonieri]

13 Claws, yep, I've seen it. I also have the book Shaolin released of the form.
It is a long form, based on 13 animals.
There is also a 3 part VCD set showing the form.


Hmm, Tien Shan Pai, there was a lot of controversy about this style.
Turns out it is a modern amalgamation by its founder, not really an ancient style
at all.

Well, there are interesting horse moves in the 18 Lohan Hands form (it is a two person form, as were many ancient sets. The second side has many moves seen in the Crazy Devil forms of MiTsung-Lohan style.

So, somehow Hua Quan was introduced into Shaolin and specifically Shaolin Lohan, since this was done during the Yuan Dynasty?

So then, that is an independent colloboration of my theory that I had based on my observances of the moves in the forms.

Bai Ma Quan is originally from Hua Quan and it became part of Bai Ma Si, which was in Loyang?

Monk Jue Yuan then according to your tradition, went to Bai Ma Si, to learn what exactly? Bai Ma Quan? Or he brought Ba Mai Quan there?

[Sal Canzonieri]

Do you know anything about these:

A student of Monk Jue Yuan named Yi Chuan (Yit Kuan in cantonese)?

A monk named Ma Zi Long, in Loyang, (Mah See Loong in cantonese)/

A temple in Loyang named Tong Fu Chan Si?
A Chin Yuan monestary?

[Lao Long]

Ahah!
This makes some of what I have been investigating seems plausable.

The Shaolin 18 Lohan Hands form that I have been talking about has the five elements inside it. The Hua Quan lineage via the Cai family claim that this form is from Hua Quan, and they have released a VCD of the form.

If Monk Yuan had brought to Shaolin martial arts from Hua Quan and he worked with Lohan forms while at Shaolin, then there it is totally possible that this 18 Lohan Hands form is from at least his time period, or older if he brought it there from the Hua Quan tradition.

(What is Bai Ma Quan? I think this is White Horse Quan, which in Loyang there is the White Horse Daoist Temple, and from where Ma taught Monk Yuan his final lessons.) What if Bai Ma Quan is a tradition of the Ma Family in Loyang (who became Moslems?) and that is the real origin of Loyang XY, especially since there is no real proof that Ji Long Feng really taught anyone of Loyang.



Dear friend, Sal Canzonieri, the reason that i decide to write to you is to inform you about Baimasi.

Baimasi is in Luoyang and although it means White Horse Temple it is not a Daoist Temple, but a pure Buddhist Temple.

"White Horse Temple," said to have been the first Buddhist temple built in China. According to tradition, Emperor Ming of the Later Han dynasty built this temple in C.E. 69 at Lo-yang for Kashyapa Matanga and Dharmaraksha, two Afgan Buddhist monks who had come from India at his invitation to teach Buddhism. In this temple, it is said, they accomplished the first Chinese translation of a Buddhist scripture-the Sutra of Forty-two Sections. The temple was named Baimasi, or White Horse Temple, because the two Indian monks were said to have brought Buddhist scriptures from India on the backs of white horses.

I am a Baimasi Monk since 1976...

As for the Baimaquan, White Horse Fist, it is truth, White Horse Temple used to have Martial Arts Training, but even when i was very young only very few monks taught it.

With respect, Laolong

[r.(shaolin)]

13 Claws, I also have the book Shaolin released of the form.
based on 13 animals.
Do you know which 13 animals?



Hmm, Tien Shan Pai, there was a lot of controversy about this style.
Turns out it is a modern amalgamation by its founder, not really an ancient style
at all.
Makes senses. I understand that one of the older generation of the present system "had many teachers".

later on the other stuff.
r.

[r.(shaolin)]

Re: Hua Quan
There is a strange story concerning Hua Quan that has been passed down in our tradition. Hua Quan fighting methods were seen as an advancement in combat techniques. This art was greatly respected at Shaolin, and it had contributed tremendous changes to the training of martial arts at Shaolin Monastery. However, before the time of Jue Yuan a terrible incident happened at Shaolin (which I will not go into). The event and the circumstances concerning it were a great humiliation to Shaolin Monastery, as a result the training of the Hua Quan style was banned and even the mention of its name and its history was forbidden at Shaolin until the time of Bai Yu Feng when it was re introduced.


Re: Yi Chuan
If we are talking about the same person his full name was,
Chang Chuan Yi. Although it is possible that Chang Chuan Yi studied with Jue Yuan, our ancestors have passed on that Chang Chuan Yi received martial arts instruction from Qiu Yue Chan Shi (Bai Yu Feng) and he developed a high level of skill. Chang Chuan Yi's lay-ordination name was Jiu Lian Huan and is the first lay generation of our tradition.

Hello Rev. Laolong
Thank you for taking the time to write. I would love hear something about the how martial art were practiced at Bai Ma Si in the 70's.
kind regards,
r.

[Sal Canzonieri]

Great to hear from you, thanks for the information, I appreciate it!

Is there a way to find out who was teaching martial arts there during the time of Shaolin Monk Jue Yuan?

Sal


Dear friend, Sal Canzonieri, the reason that i decide to write to you is to inform you about Baimasi.

Baimasi is in Luoyang and although it means White Horse Temple it is not a Daoist Temple, but a pure Buddhist Temple.

"White Horse Temple," said to have been the first Buddhist temple built in China. According to tradition, Emperor Ming of the Later Han dynasty built this temple in C.E. 69 at Lo-yang for Kashyapa Matanga and Dharmaraksha, two Afgan Buddhist monks who had come from India at his invitation to teach Buddhism. In this temple, it is said, they accomplished the first Chinese translation of a Buddhist scripture-the Sutra of Forty-two Sections. The temple was named Baimasi, or White Horse Temple, because the two Indian monks were said to have brought Buddhist scriptures from India on the backs of white horses.

I am a Baimasi Monk since 1976...

As for the Baimaquan, White Horse Fist, it is truth, White Horse Temple used to have Martial Arts Training, but even when i was very young only very few monks taught it.

With respect, Laolong

[r.(shaolin)]

Sal,

In doing some limited research (with the emphasis on little :-) the Xin Yi that is practiced by the Xin Yi from Wu Gulun is similar to other Xinyi styles. They use Liu He, and wuxing which they interpret as pi, zuan, beng, pao, heng.
They also have Twelve (Animal) Shapes which they list as:
Dragon
Tiger
Monkey
Horse
Tortoise
co ckerel
Hawk
Swallow
Snake
Kite
Eagle
Bear

Xinyiquan as taught by Dai Clan in Shanxi province
They also have Twelve (Animal) Shapes (Shi Er Xing) which are:
Dragon (Long)
Tiger (Hu)
Monkey (Hou)
Horse (Ma)
Nag (Tai) - think this is a type of bird
Cat (Mao)
Swallow (Yan)
Sparrow Hawk (Yao)
Eagle (Ying)
Chicken (Ji)
Crane (He)
Snake (She)

From what I see, neither specifically connects wu xing to animals ie. dragon, tiger, leopard, crane, and snake.

Also I gather from talking to shaoshishan that this lineage of Shaolin xingyi does not practice many sets.

I would be interested what their verbal history is concerning Jue Yuan, Bai Yu Feng, etc.

r.
ps
Re: A temple in Loyang named Tong Fu Chan Si?
A Chin Yuan monestary?

As far as my research goes, there are no records of these two monasteries in Loyang
or for that matter anywhere else. Keep in mind however, although there were very few state monasteries throughout Chinese Imperial history, thousands were built by commoners and nobles with most being destroyed over time.

[Sal Canzonieri]

About the 13 Claws from Shaolin (these forms were said to have been preserved by Fu Yu during the Sung Dynasty, thre are three forms:
13 Claw Single Root,
Four Doors
and 13 Claw Partner Set.

The animals in the form are: dragon, snake, monkey, tiger, horse, ox, rabbit, swallow, crane, chicken, leopard, phoenix and eagle. It is said to have developed over time from the original Five Animals of Shaolin.

[r.(shaolin)]

Hi Sal,

So do I understand correctly that their tradition claims that Bai Yu Feng developing: 13 Claw Single Root, Four Doors. and 13 Claw Partner Set and these were "preserved" by Fu Yu during the Sung Dynasty? By 'preserved', do they mean "passed on to" or that Fu Yu based these three sets on what Bai Yu Feng taught? Are there any other sets that are presently done at Shaolin that are specifically attributed to Bai Yu Feng?

We seem to at least share these animal names: Dragon, Tiger, Leopard, Snake, Crane, as well as three other animals: Monkey, Mustang/horse, Water Buffalo/Ox

[Sal Canzonieri]

Hi Sal,

So do I understand correctly that their tradition claims that Bai Yu Feng developing: 13 Claw Single Root, Four Doors. and 13 Claw Partner Set and these were "preserved" by Fu Yu during the Sung Dynasty? By 'preserved', do they mean "passed on to" or that Bu Yu based these three sets on what Bai Yu Feng taught? Are there any other sets that are presently done at Shaolin that are specifically attributed to Bai Yu Feng?

We seem to at least share these animal names: Dragon, Tiger, Leopard, Snake, Crane, as well as three other animals: Monkey, Mustang/horse, Water Buffalo/Ox


Hmm, one source said the 13 Claw Single Root form was created by Bai Yu Feng,
and another source said that this form was created by Fu Yu and based on BaiYu Feng's 5 animals forms.

These 3 forms and some other ones are part of the Jin Gang (Xin Gong) Shaolin sub-style, and these forms are all said to be passed on from Fu Yu.
XING GONG (movement and exercise) is said to have been created by Fu Ju during the Song Dynasty. It has passed through Yang Xiu Shan (1885-1949) then to Gao Zhuo Jun (1917-2003). It is a relatively rare branch of Shaolin.

I have documentation of a weird Lohan form that is attributed to Li Sou and is also derived from the Five Animals (or vice versa).

Yeah, most of the animals match your system.

[r.(shaolin)]

... another source said that this form was created by Fu Yu and based on BaiYu Feng's 5 animals forms.

As a point of reference, our tradition claims that animal imitating methods (ie. Dragon, Tiger, Leopard, Snake, Crane, etc.) already existed at Shaolin and were not created by neither Jue Yuan or Bai Yu Feng but that they made substantial changes to them creating a new comprehensive system.

r.

[Sal Canzonieri]

Yeah, I can see that, these animals / moves named after these animals
are in the pre-Yuan dynasty forms.

And, actually, these same animals are in styles that are older than Shaolin and that were influences/ root styles that Shaolin was derived from, such
as Tung-Pei, which relies heavy on Snake, Dragon, etc.

[r.(shaolin)]

Hi Sal,

Re: the variety of sets connected / attributed to Bai Yu Feng.

Historical Context

It is my opinion that Bai Yu Feng and Jue Yuan are very important in the development of martial arts at Shaolin and that the main motivator was the defense of the monastery on the eve of the Mongol invasion and the collapse of the Jin. It was no accident that Yue Yuan in looking for martial arts instructors approached a renown sword expert. Shaolin had to maintain a very fine balance between an effective defense, which would have required weapons as well as a good number of individuals effectively trained in martial arts at the monastery and yet not to attract attention to itself as a military power. Shaolin did this by being very discreet on the one hand and on the other, being very shrewd in whom they allied themselves with. You will note that when Kublai Khan and his army came into the area, they stayed in Shaolin Si as guests. This was a act of hospitality that was to have a profound effect on the survival and development of Buddhism in northern China during the Yuan.

During this period (the 1200's) the Jurchens (Jin) ruled over the northern parts which included the area where Shaolin Si stood. It was approximately the time that the alleged activities of Yue Yuan and Bai Yu Feng and when the historically accurate activities of Fuyu took place – as well as when the Mongols pushed the Jin out of the region. These Mongol invasion created great havoc not only in the population at large but in the monastic world as well. This was a devastating time when a large number of monasteries in the north were either destroyed or abandoned. Roving bandits became even more of an endemic problem in Henan.

Traditional history

In comparing what has been passed on about Bai Yu Feng in the Shaolin tradition I practice with that which has been compiled by Shi De Qian in his encyclopedia I find there are a number of differences but also important similarities.

Some of the points-of-interest in our tradition include:

1 Bai Yu Feng was recruited by Jue Yuan to improve Shaolin wushu and to teach at Shaolin sometime during the early years of the Yuan or shortly before.

2. Bai Yu Feng was renowned expert in the narrow blade sword.

3. Bai Yu Feng had obtained the Dao (i.e. he was accomplished).

4. Bai Yu Feng utilizied the five shapes of the fist represented by the dragon, tiger, leopard, crane, and snake, which were already practiced at Shaolin, and created a new and more effective system. According to our tradition, he intended to develop fifteen sets, but because of an untimely death he completed only twelve.

5. Besides his work on 'wu xing' when the Venerable Qiu Yue Chan Shi (Bai Yu Feng) took the position of Tsang-chu (librarian) at Shaolin Monastery he found records on other martial arts and brought them back into practice.

6. Venerable Qiu Yue Chan Shi had many followers included lay Buddhists.
(This may very well account for the fact of the number of Shaolin traditions that have connections to him as well as the variation in sets).


Shi De Qian's compilation in vol. 1 of his encyclopedia (it appears that his sources are mostly verbal tradition documented from sources like "Shaolin Si Ji" etc). Some important highlighs of his research include:

1. (Between 1224 - 1231) Yue Yuan left Shaolin to find martial arts teachers. He first found Li Sou and his son. The three then travelled to Loyang where they found Bai Yu Feng. (I am wondering aloud about the source of these dates.)

2. Bai Yu Feng specialized Qi Gong, martial arts and the sword

3. Bai Yu Feng was a well know teacher who taught professionally (i.e. he supported himself by taking students0.

4. Bai Yu Feng not only combined the 5 fists with with foot work, feet, hands, and eyes, (i.e. he created sets) but . . .

5. . . . he also made corrections to various routines making them more practical for combat.

6. Many martial arts master made special trips to Shaolin just to visit with him.


Going back to the subject of the sword for a moment, Shi De Qian's account of these events also makes the point, that after Jue Yuan received training from Bai Yu Feng "his (Jue Yuan) sword skill reached to such a point that even water poured on him could not reach his body".

r.

[Sal Canzonieri]

Much appreciated, thanks for your comments!

One think I have also noticed, almost all the Shaolin empty hand forms can be done with a staff with no change in the movements barely at all.
From the Lian Huan training form to the most advanced forms, it is easy to transform the forms into staff forms.

All the sword movements can also be done empty handed as chin-na and as takedowns.

I wish there was a way to actually find out what forms were developed during that time period we are speaking of.
Also, info on the forms that Li Sou was said to have developed.

I'm most intriqued by the Loyang connection to Shaolin and how it might have eventually developed into Ma family X Yi. There is no absolute proof at all that Ji Long Feng really taught Ma XY. It seems to really come from another source, or from Loyang itself.

[r.(shaolin)]

Sal,

There are some people that believe that the way that XinYin Ba arrived at Shaolin was through Ji Longfeng who exchanged the style with Shaolin temple in return for for Yi Jin Jing . Have you hear this version of its history at Shaolin?

r.

[Sal Canzonieri]

I've only heard that from XY people, who barely know their own history
or even where their forms come from.

What I've read or heard from Shaolin is that the Xin Yi bar form (and I have seen more than one) were ancient forms that the monks used for exercise and self defense that depicted the movements of both farming and laboring and also that of local farm and wild animals, which all the movements in the form can attest to.