Sal Canzonieri
02-18-2005, 04:46 PM
here's a frustrating thread I have in the KF research, if anyone has any input, I'd love to discuss it:
1- What did Ji Long Feng (Ji Ji Ke) learn exactly?
2 - Who really were his students?
3- What are the roots of Xin yi ? Xing Yi?
4 - Where did the various forms from the various styles come from?
Question 2 is a bone of contention for a lot of people.
There seems to be no real evidence that he taught anyone of the 3 people that are attributed to be his direct students.
Cao Ji Wu there is no real link whatsoever, only in passing legend, erroneously passed from one Xing Yi teacher to another.
He might not even had been in the area to have had contact. He is not featured in the local historical gazettes.
Ma Xueli of Loyang, people from his city say he did not learn from Ji Long Feng, that a "wandering Taoist" visited him and passed on what became Xin Yi Liu Ho style of Henan Province (this Liu Ho is not the same as what is generally known as Six Harmony style, it is a Moslem style that is named after the six cornered hats they wear.).
And, there is the mystery of the Dai family style of Shanxi Province.
Dai Long Bang was said to have studied under Cao Ji Wu, which is untrue.
In fact, he learned the 10 Animals of Henan Xin Yi from Li Zheng, who was a student of Zhang Zhi Cheng, who was a student of Ma Xue Li.
Some martial arts historians claim that Cao Jiwu not only did not teach Xinyiquan to Dai Longbang, but was not related to Xinyiquan at all. The common believe that Cao was Dai Longbang’s teacher comes from another believe – that the "Introduction to Xinyiquan Boxing Manual" (Liu He Quan Xu) was written by Dai. However, there is no name below the text and there is no evidence Dai actually wrote it. While most Xingyiquan practitioners consider the "Introduction" to be a document of historical value, more and more researchers doubt its authenticity. Some even claim it is a forgery made out in Shanxi at the end of 19th century.
Dai Long Bang ladded the Five Elements and Three Fist forms to Henen 10 Animal Xin Yi to form: Dai Family Xin Yi Quan
Dai learned:
- Yi Quan of Shanxi Province, which is his family style, where the Five Elements and Three Fists forms come from originally.
These five elements are the same as in Shaolin Lohan 18 Hands forms (that's another thread!)
- Yue Fei style from Niu Xi Xian, who descends from Niu Gao, Yue Fei's Army Officer.
- Six Harmony Mantis from Jin Shi Kui, who was from Shandong Province. The Four Routines of Za Shi come from Jin Shi Kui.
I have looked him up on Mantis geneology charts and I have found him listed as a early found of Six Harmony Mantis, and that he traveled a lot and was missing from Shandong Province for many years, which of course is because he was in Shanxi teaching Dai Long Bang! That's a major piece of research that no one put two and two together about before!
- Henan Xin Yi Quan, 10 animal forms, which he learned from Li Zheng, who is of Ma Xue Li's lineage.
SO, that is how Xing Yi Quan got these forms into their system from Dai Long Bang's lineage?
1- What did Ji Long Feng (Ji Ji Ke) learn exactly?
2 - Who really were his students?
3- What are the roots of Xin yi ? Xing Yi?
4 - Where did the various forms from the various styles come from?
Question 2 is a bone of contention for a lot of people.
There seems to be no real evidence that he taught anyone of the 3 people that are attributed to be his direct students.
Cao Ji Wu there is no real link whatsoever, only in passing legend, erroneously passed from one Xing Yi teacher to another.
He might not even had been in the area to have had contact. He is not featured in the local historical gazettes.
Ma Xueli of Loyang, people from his city say he did not learn from Ji Long Feng, that a "wandering Taoist" visited him and passed on what became Xin Yi Liu Ho style of Henan Province (this Liu Ho is not the same as what is generally known as Six Harmony style, it is a Moslem style that is named after the six cornered hats they wear.).
And, there is the mystery of the Dai family style of Shanxi Province.
Dai Long Bang was said to have studied under Cao Ji Wu, which is untrue.
In fact, he learned the 10 Animals of Henan Xin Yi from Li Zheng, who was a student of Zhang Zhi Cheng, who was a student of Ma Xue Li.
Some martial arts historians claim that Cao Jiwu not only did not teach Xinyiquan to Dai Longbang, but was not related to Xinyiquan at all. The common believe that Cao was Dai Longbang’s teacher comes from another believe – that the "Introduction to Xinyiquan Boxing Manual" (Liu He Quan Xu) was written by Dai. However, there is no name below the text and there is no evidence Dai actually wrote it. While most Xingyiquan practitioners consider the "Introduction" to be a document of historical value, more and more researchers doubt its authenticity. Some even claim it is a forgery made out in Shanxi at the end of 19th century.
Dai Long Bang ladded the Five Elements and Three Fist forms to Henen 10 Animal Xin Yi to form: Dai Family Xin Yi Quan
Dai learned:
- Yi Quan of Shanxi Province, which is his family style, where the Five Elements and Three Fists forms come from originally.
These five elements are the same as in Shaolin Lohan 18 Hands forms (that's another thread!)
- Yue Fei style from Niu Xi Xian, who descends from Niu Gao, Yue Fei's Army Officer.
- Six Harmony Mantis from Jin Shi Kui, who was from Shandong Province. The Four Routines of Za Shi come from Jin Shi Kui.
I have looked him up on Mantis geneology charts and I have found him listed as a early found of Six Harmony Mantis, and that he traveled a lot and was missing from Shandong Province for many years, which of course is because he was in Shanxi teaching Dai Long Bang! That's a major piece of research that no one put two and two together about before!
- Henan Xin Yi Quan, 10 animal forms, which he learned from Li Zheng, who is of Ma Xue Li's lineage.
SO, that is how Xing Yi Quan got these forms into their system from Dai Long Bang's lineage?