The intgration and Mixing [Archive] - Kung Fu Magazine Forums

Hendrik

02-19-2005, 10:27 AM

IMHHO, As in system design, There are mixing to 'patch' up and there is holistics integration.

Imhho, for a holistic integtation,
the 3 components--
Platform/structure Charateristics, Energetics of the platform/structure, and contact capability of the platfrom/ energetics.
Must be designed with properly alignment.

IMHHO, there are so many system design fail due to "impoting and mixing" was implemented but not integration with the consideration of the basic 3 components.

IE: Iron vest mix. Look at Taiji, how do you think Iron shirt will Integrate into taiji system? anyone does iron shirt in taiji?

Analyzed Taiji with Iron shirt with the three components above. and one shall see is it a good mix? can it be an integration? or, it doesnt make sense?

However, often the details of the 3 componets above was not understood. thus, mixing was carried out without much depths.

Thus, under microscopic analysis, when and what and who the mix was done is possible to determined.

a good art doesnt have to be modern, tradition, the oldest, ..ect. a good art also doesnt have to be not the modern, tradition, oldest..ect.

Imhho, an holistic system with the 3 components holisticly define clearly and integrated naturally is a good art.

but then, there is no ultimate best art because every art has a characteristic. and every characteristic comes with pro and con. A coin has to have two faces. and that is the beauty.

The path to mix and create the oldest never work. for no one can changes past. and what was genetated become a burden tie one up and drown one after some glory propaganda. because one has sold one's life force to sustained what never existed.

The path to mixing to created modern will not work because mixing without deep mastering bring a sense of emptiness and fuzzy identity.

I like the beginning of the movie-- the fighter in the wind-- there Mas Oyama character starts honestly with Something like ' I have fear....'

without being honest and humanity as a starting points the 3 components are far from reach. without looking into the 3 basics core components there will be no depths . IMHHO.

The beauty of SLT, Chi Sau, Woodern Dummy package is that it integrate naturally. may be the time has come to examine the package with depths of the contents instead of keep mixing and chansing the term 'oldest' which has no meaning. imhho.

just some thoughs. in this era of evolution and cross road of modern and traditional.
OSU

Mckind13

02-19-2005, 12:03 PM

I agree!

Integration of Concept

Integration of body

Tools will fall into place!

Dave

Hendrik

02-19-2005, 12:13 PM

Originally posted by Mckind13
I agree!

Integration of Concept

Integration of body

Tools will fall into place!

Dave

Dave,

There are also integration of concept and body.

and not to mention that searching of Awareness.

Then, there is the integration of concept, body, breathing, and Awareness...

But then saying that, there are still training processes needs to be worked out.

For, philoshophy, ideas, is empty without processes. Processes is dull mechanical without philosophy.

OSU!
http://www.geocities.com/irek65/osu.html

KPM

02-19-2005, 12:38 PM

Hi Hendrik!

Glad to see you back! I agree with you completely. The platform or "engine" is the key thing. More important than choreography of the forms. For something to truly be integrated into WCK, it has to function well with the WCK "engine", otherwise the result is just a "mish-mash" if different things with no real cohesion. This is the difference between sticking with your WCK versus ending up with some kind of eclectic or "mixed" martial art. This is also how WCK can change with the times....not by adding techniques from other systems, but rather by doing new and similar things but with a WCK "dynamic." Just one question though......you said:

"The beauty of SLT, Chi Sau, Woodern Dummy package is that it integrate naturally. may be the time has come to examine the package with depths of the contents instead of keep mixing and chansing the term 'oldest' which has no meaning. imhho."

Again, I agree with this completely. However, how are we ever going to "examine the package with depths of the contents" when so many of the really good WCK systems remain so closed and secretive? Are you ready to start talking about the "depths of contents" of the Yik Kam WCK system? If so, I'm certainly listening!!! :-)

Keith

Kevin Bell

02-23-2005, 01:34 PM

anerlich

02-23-2005, 02:46 PM

Hendrik

02-23-2005, 07:03 PM

For a system or set of systems that's going to work under duress in a wide variety of circumstances, "holistic integration" is IMO of little value. Better have a variety of independent systems where one or more can cover if the engine or delivery system of another fails, e.g. battery backup for mains power, optical storage to backup magnetic, etc. ------

Great point.
however, one still has to know the holistic integration of each independent "engine and its delivery system" otherwise how can one know if it works or how to make things work together.

I'm not interested in "integrating" anything into Wing Chun. I'm interested in training in a variety of arts which can cover all the bases, as well as stopping me from getting bored. If arts are too easily integrated, they're probably too alike, and thus share weaknesses. -----

since one is interested in training in a variety of arts ; then, one must know the pro-con of each individual art which call for knowing : the integration of the rack, engine, and delivery system of each individual to cover all bases.

It is similar to a car has its enginee/wheel rack, enginee, and delivery system, it is by default a holistic integration with its own system characteristics. you love to have x numbers of different type of cars is great. however, every car has its own integration which support its characteristics.

I am SO sick of the mentality that suggests you have to be a grandmaster for fifty years before you know enough about anything in WC to be able to consider changing or extending it. If that model were adopted in other fields of human life, we'd all still be living in caves and wearing animal skins. -----

IMHO, whether it is 5 years, 50 years, or 500 years to master an art that depend on the person, the information provided to the person, the environment.

One can go to China's University and study Micro-electronics chip design for 20 years but might not master as much as a 5 years old from UC-Berkery. The reason simple is China doesnt have the facility, labs, hands-on proffessors, and environment.

The Asia university might be great in MAth and solving Theoritical questions, however, when it comes to really design that integrated circuit. it is not par with the one in UC-Berkery.

so, there cant be a generization. it has to be realistics.

One of the best BJJ innovators I've seen says he gets many of his ideas from play in his kid's classes. We all have creativity within us until it is beaten out of by parents, teachers, grandmasters with rice bowls, etc.

You have a brain, use it. If your focus is not on learning, experimenting and enjoying your training, but being ready for the streetfight that is extraordinarily unlikely to ever come if you use basic common sense, you are missing out on so much. -------

When one has a good holistics discipline or training in a certain field under one's belt. Then one can play with ideas and get creative...etc.

however, if one doesnt have that good holistic discipline and training in a certain field, one might spend 50 years to redesign a wheel. or mixing trying to drive a giant tractor truck wheels with a honda civic enginee as a Tractor truck for next 50 years.

Similary, one cannot walk into standford university EE to enroll in post doctor degree program and doing research if one doesnt have the foundation of Electrical engineering.

My first instructor teaches a system involving WC, CLF and Northern Sil Lum. When I started training with him, it was a WC engine, but over the years it has morphed into a more CLF-like engine.

(cars and computers are often tinkered with by amateur or semi-amateur enthusiasts, with stock parts being replaced by others. Failures occur, but most people who truly succeeded were people who failied over and over but never gave up - as the quote goes more or less, "moving from one failure ot the next with undiminished enthusiasm").

It has worked very well for his students both in defense situations and a small number of competitions (including silver medal in Police and Fire Olympics) over the decades. This will probably annoy some but I suggest you see it first hand before criticising. ----------

There is nothing wrong about CLF engine. There is nothing wrong with trial and error experiments. The holistic integration support those.

The
holistic integtation,
the 3 components--
Platform/structure Charateristics, Energetics of the platform/structure, and contact capability of the platfrom/ energetics.

it only said, the rack of the enginee/wheels, the engine, and the delivery system support each others.

One can use Toyota engine with Toyota rack but mercedes Wheel.
Nothing wrong with that as soon as it "integrate up" well and honestly call it a Toyota 4 runner engine with Mercedes wheel instead of a Mercedes car.

a Toyota engine with a Benz wheels doesnt make a Benz.
because when it has to "run" it is still a Toyota engine which power the wheel.

One can have 10 different modified BWM, Honda... that is nothing wrong with it.

OSU!

Hendrik

02-23-2005, 07:17 PM

However, how are we ever going to "examine the package with depths of the contents" when so many of the really good WCK systems remain so closed and secretive? Are you ready to start talking about the "depths of contents" of the Yik Kam WCK system? If so, I'm certainly listening!!! :-)

Keith

Hi Keith,

Yik Kam itself is a laber without contents. what is the contents are more important. And everyone has depth in contents, not neccessary only YiK Kam.

in an equal manner, anerlich's first instructor evolving his art. there is depth of contents there on how the system over the years it has morphed into a more CLF-like engine which is working well.

There is an integration.

So, this discussion is about what is it, what kind of technology, what kind of integration instead of what brand name or antics.

IMHHO.

Hendrik

02-23-2005, 07:25 PM

Hey Hendrik,

you tricked me there i got round to feeling sorry for you there when YP left the building i thought you gone for good.. :p :p

Just a question, could you make your posts a little more user friendly apologies but my IQ is the same size as my shoe :D :D

Kev

YP is gone. and His-story discussion is gone with the wind. That part gone for good.

I will try to meet your request. however, have no guarentee because it is not a easy present topic. But if you stick around more. you sure can pick up what is going on from all the people discuss here.

anerlich

02-23-2005, 08:44 PM

IMHO, whether it is 5 years, 50 years, or 500 years to master an art that depend on the person, the information provided to the person, the environment.

In this day and age, no one of reasonable intelligence in a civilised country can use access to information or environment as an excuse for not learning the basics - unless they have a poor teacher.

After 5-10 years, you should have enough info and experience in WC to be able to explore for yourself. If not, blame your teachers.

however, if one doesnt have that good holistic discipline and training in a certain field, one might spend 50 years to redesign a wheel. or mixing trying to drive a giant tractor truck wheels with a honda civic enginee as a Tractor truck for next 50 years.

Yeah, but in modern times good training should be easy to find. And generally, it is, except apparently in TCMA. Why is it so different to every other pursuit? Unless the teachers suck or have motives other than teaching students how to learn for themselves ...

The Asia university might be great in MAth and solving Theoritical questions, however, when it comes to really design that integrated circuit. it is not par with the one in UC-Berkery.

so, there cant be a generization. it has to be realistics.

So Asians are the best at teaching MA, but suck at everything else? Unlikely.

You just fell into your own trap by making a generalization about the education systems of various countries. If you compare the geographic knowledge of the average Asian and American tourists I've met here, the American education system is a long way behind.

Even I with my "poor education" know it's UC Berkeley

Hendrik

02-23-2005, 09:09 PM

You just fell into your own trap by making a generalization about the education systems of various countries.

Even I with my "poor education" know it's UC Berkeley

Realistically, who have a better lab and environments , that will decide who lead in the field of advance micro electronics design. it is a competition on high tech tools and high tech environment instead of general education system. so, in one way, one can view this as a generalization. on another hand, it is a specific realistic facts.

you have good precise English that is a part of good education. Thanks for the correction.

KPM

02-24-2005, 03:57 AM

Hey Hendrick!

Yik Kam itself is a laber without contents. what is the contents are more important. And everyone has depth in contents, not neccessary only YiK Kam.

---I didn't say only Yik Kam had "depth of contents." But I certainly include it on the list of systems of quality WCK with a lot to contribute but that is very closed and secretive to the general WCK public.

So, this discussion is about what is it, what kind of technology, what kind of integration instead of what brand name or antics.

---Well, you seemed to be saying that in order to integrate anything well into WCK, we need to know the "depth of contents" of the system and how its platform/energetics works. I only asked if you were willing to start explaining the "depths of contents" and the "platform/energetics" of your own system....Yik Kam WCK. IMHO, its kind of pointless to start a thread or conversation about how to integrate things in WCK if you yourself are going to be unwilling to participate in a major part of how it should be done.

---Hendrik I truly believe you have that "depth of knowledge" if only you were willing to openly share it with the rest of us. This is what got you in trouble with many in this forum in the past. IMHO, if you are here to continue to start threads that only "tease" or try to "stimulate thought" without providing any real solid information, then things are not likely to change. Generally people expect a conversation to be a two way street. You can't ask questions of others without being willing to answer questions yourself.

Keith

Hendrik

02-24-2005, 10:52 AM

----- 1, I only asked if you were willing to start explaining the "depths of contents" and the "platform/energetics" of your own system....Yik Kam WCK.
2, IMHO, its kind of pointless to start a thread or conversation about how to integrate things in WCK if you yourself are going to be unwilling to participate in a major part of how it should be done. ---------------

Do you think your request 1 and conclusion 2 is the only way of point conversation?

Dont you think

anerlich has a good point?

"You have a brain, use it. If your focus is not on learning, experimenting and enjoying your training, but being ready for the streetfight that is extraordinarily unlikely to ever come if you use basic common sense, you are missing out on so much.....

(cars and computers are often tinkered with by amateur or semi-amateur enthusiasts, with stock parts being replaced by others. Failures occur, but most people who truly succeeded were people who failied over and over but never gave up - as the quote goes more or less, "moving from one failure ot the next with undiminished enthusiasm")." --A

May be if you want to learn about Yik Kam's "depths of contents" art then , a good way is to directly go bai si and learn from some Yik Kam's lineage people.

To be honest, I might also dont know the "depths of contents" of Yik Kam's art.

However, look at the 3 items on top from the platform to the contacts capability. isnt that can be a direction of discusion to gain more deeper understanding?

---Hendrik I truly believe you have that "depth of knowledge" if only you were willing to openly share it with the rest of us.

This is what got you in trouble with many in this forum in the past. IMHO, if you are here to continue to start threads that only "tease" or try to "stimulate thought" without providing any real solid information, then things are not likely to change.

Generally people expect a conversation to be a two way street. You can't ask questions of others without being willing to answer questions yourself. -------

Keith,

you forgot I am a Zen buddhist more than a WCner. :D
So, sharing is different with different people from different character.

And BTW, two way street can be one from the land the other a direct flight with Helicopter. or one from the sea and one by submarine. expecting always I come with Gray Hound is not good. I might come from submarine and get up from the waste water "sue" drain and take a Bart underground. since we are not talking about GRAY HOUND the label but Transportation, any type of transportation right? hahaha.

So, in order to understand the Zen in "depths of contents", since you believe me to have "depth of knowledge". :D

here I do a copy cat job.

According to a great book "Mindfulness In Plain English"
http://www.geocities.com/tranquilo_guest_house/Vi****ana.html
which recomended by my friend is that

" ... two separate tacks. The first is the direct plunge into awareness by sheer force of will. You sit down and you just sit, meaning that you toss out of your mind everything except pure awareness of
sitting. This sounds very simple. It is not.
A brief trial will demonstrate just how difficult it really is.

The second Zen approach used in the Rinzai school is that of tricking the mind
out of conscious thought and into pure awareness. This is done
by giving the student an unsolvable riddle which he must solve
anyway, and by placing him in a horrendous training situation.

Since he cannot flee from the pain of the situation, he must flee
into a pure experience of the moment. There is nowhere else to
go. Zen is tough. It is effective for many people, but it is
really tough...."

But then dont ask me about the Mind Seal or the Certification of the Satori because that I cant help. you need a patriach of Zen with the mindseal from the Buddha.

OSU!

t_niehoff

02-24-2005, 10:54 AM

There are some serious problems with what I call Hendrik's "original design" theory -- that some "original design" (the intention of the developers of WCK) defines WCK and that only by our strictly following that "original design" can a practitioner hope to fully realize the potential of their WCK -- particularly because it rests on the assumptions that the fighting method we know as WCK is perfectly formed and was so realized from its origin. Many others besides Hendrik, btw, have also adopted this way of thinking, always with their individual (lineage) interpretation being the "original design." I call this "the 11 secret herb and spices" or the "secret book" view (if you want to make Kentucky Fried Chicken, you need to precisely stick to the secret recipe or it won't taste like KFC, the recipe defines KFC chicken, and the "secret book" contains the secret recipe).

As I said, there are all kinds of serious problems with that POV when you apply it to a fighting method. Without going into all of them (which would be quite lengthy), I just want to say that I think that view looks at WCK (and fighting) from the wrong direction. To illustrate, let me ask a question:

Let's assume for the moment there is a "best" way of doing a WCK-related thing . . .

So, do you want to do it the "best" way or the traditional (historical) way? Presumably, that's one and the same -- the traditional way is the "best". If it is, then can't that be proven -- not by argument or theory (i.e., intellectually), but from fighting (not by demo or in a drill)? (If you can't prove it, then you can't really say it is the best other than from some theoretical hearsay POV). And if it's not the best, do we want to persist in doing something that's merely second rate (just to preserve it)? If the "best" isn't the traditional way, can't that too be similarly proven? My point is this: why be concerned about whether something is or is not the traditional/historical/original/etc. at all; shouldn't we intead focus on whether it is the "best" (for us)? How do we determine what is "best" or even what is "good" (for us)? By results, not theory, not by legends or stories, ot by conjecture. Results.

This is what I mean by coming at these things from the wrong direction. If you start with your focus being obtaining good (or the best possible) results, it makes the whole issue of "traditional" or "original" moot -- it's not an issue (other than for some historical perspective).

Hendrik

02-24-2005, 11:47 AM

Terence,

For fun of discussion!

There are some serious problems with what I call Hendrik's "original design" theory -- -----

When one has a "hammer" in one's hand, then everything in the world looks like "nail". hahahaha :D

Hey bro, we are talking about The integration here. not ORIGINAL. hehehe

that some "original design" (the intention of the developers of WCK) defines WCK and that only by our strictly following that "original design" can a practitioner hope to fully realize the potential of their WCK -- particularly because it rests on the assumptions that the fighting method we know as WCK is perfectly formed and was so realized from its origin. --------

"Imhho, for a holistic integtation,
the 3 components--
Platform/structure Charateristics, Energetics of the platform/structure, and contact capability of the platfrom/ energetics.
Must be designed with properly alignment.

IMHHO, there are so many system design fail due to "impoting and mixing" was implemented but not integration with the consideration of the basic 3 components."

nothing about ORIGINAL. BUT more about ---HONESTY: about does the components fits well and where those components are from ---if we want to strech the idea.

EI: if it is a ROLEX face with A TIMEX Core. Does it works well? it is a ROLEX?

Many others besides Hendrik, btw, have also adopted this way of thinking, always with their individual (lineage) interpretation being the "original design." I call this "the 11 secret herb and spices" or the "secret book" view (if you want to make Kentucky Fried Chicken, you need to precisely stick to the secret recipe or it won't taste like KFC, the recipe defines KFC chicken, and the "secret book" contains the secret recipe). --------

If one want to know the taste of that KFC original, then taste it.

Until then, all the speculation about KFC is just off mark.

because one might not even know how is a chicken taste like.

Beside, what is so wrong about finding out what that "the 11 secret herb and spices" will taste like?

As for your comment on,
"Many others besides Hendrik, btw, have also adopted this way of thinking, always with their individual (lineage) interpretation being the "original design."

A KFC in USA, A KFC in China, A KFC in JAPAN, A KFC in Australia. All has some similirality of KFC headquater. because they are KFC and sure they might have slight different taste due being in different countries.

Again, it is not that ORIGINAL the focus of discussion here but what is in it, does it taste right? and be honest what is in it?

As I said, there are all kinds of serious problems with that POV when you apply it to a fighting method. ------

Until now, The only serious problem I see is that you are talking about a different thing while the topic is integration, your direction is Original.

One doesnt have a serious problem if one understand an art on its platfrom, energetics, contactivity. or IE, analogy of a CAr, the rack, the enginee, the wheels.

Now, one has serious problem to race that car when one doesnt have a good understanding of the CAr.

Not to mention, if one's view is concentrated on LAbel and cannot be able to have a full understanding of what tha car is about.

So, before even use the TOOL, one needs to know what is that Hammer is for. cant use the Hammer to saw an iron rod. or collect ten different types of Hammers and make believe that is the "it" for contruction. BTW. that is wrong use of Hammer.

That is a Big Problem.

When if one has a Hammer one think everything one sees is a "nail"

Without going into all of them (which would be quite lengthy), I just want to say that I think that view looks at WCK (and fighting) from the wrong direction. To illustrate, let me ask a question: -----

Again, When if one has a Hammer one think everything one sees is a "nail". That is the big big problem.

Let's assume for the moment there is a "best" way of doing a WCK-related thing . . .

So, do you want to do it the "best" way or the traditional (historical) way? Presumably, that's one and the same -- the traditional way is the "best". If it is, then can't that be proven -- not by argument or theory (i.e., intellectually), but from fighting (not by demo or in a drill)? (If you can't prove it, then you can't really say it is the best other than from some theoretical hearsay POV). And if it's not the best, do we want to persist in doing something that's merely second rate (just to preserve it)? If the "best" isn't the traditional way, can't that too be similarly proven? My point is this: why be concerned about whether something is or is not the traditional/historical/original/etc. at all; shouldn't we intead focus on whether it is the "best" (for us)? How do we determine what is "best" or even what is "good" (for us)? By results, not theory, not by legends or stories, ot by conjecture. Results.

This is what I mean by coming at these things from the wrong direction. If you start with your focus being obtaining good (or the best possible) results, it makes the whole issue of "traditional" or "original" moot -- it's not an issue (other than for some historical perspective).------------

When one goes to KFC and ordering the ORIGINAL.

What that means is the KFC ORIGINAL, nothing to do with the BEST Way of CHICKEN COOKING.

Hey, there is roasted chicken. there is wok cook chicken. How can Fried Chicken be the BEST way of Chicken Cooking?

To understand what is about the KFC original fried chicken is just knowing what is it. That simple.

So what process being INTEGRATED to make the KFC chicken? is it the same with MCChicken? or are one substitute or mix MC Chicken to call it KFC?

See, it is just Fried chicken. and Fried is only one way among all the ways of cooking Chicken.

But, then, one has to know clearly, is it Fried or is it roast or is it water cook..... instead of calling water cook Fried and making Fried the ORiginal of ALL CHICKEN COOKING.

As for Contest of the BEST taste. left that to the IRON Cheef! :D

TN, make sure you dont missed my post above.

------------------------
a good art doesnt have to be modern, tradition, the oldest, ..ect. a good art also doesnt have to be not the modern, tradition, oldest..ect.

Imhho, an holistic system with the 3 components holisticly define clearly and integrated naturally is a good art.

but then, there is no ultimate best art because every art has a characteristic. and every characteristic comes with pro and con. A coin has to have two faces. and that is the beauty.

The path to mix via superficial fragment to create the "oldest" never work. for no one can changes past. and that "thing" what was genetated become a burden monster that tie one's soul up and it drown one after some glory propaganda of marketing. it will finally put one into emptiness and insecurity in contrast to an honest job with fulfillment.

That is because one has sold one's life force to sustained what never existed.
It is like a lie and one aways has to make another lie to cover the preceed lies. it is draining.

-----

So here I am talking about bolt and nuts and how the system engineed. not about original, old, traditional,...... those are label.

now back to how is that thing work? is it a good fit system? what is the pro and con? where do you get the components? how is the test drive? what do and dont you feel great about it? what to continously improve?

What is the possibility of the platform? What is the needs?

KPM

02-24-2005, 01:55 PM

Hi Hendrik!

May be if you want to learn about Yik Kam's "depths of contents" art then , a good way is to directly go bai si and learn from some Yik Kam's lineage people.

---So then it sounds like your answer is....No...you are not here to share any of your insights and knowledge of your WCK.

However, look at the 3 items on top from the platform to the contacts capability. isnt that can be a direction of discusion to gain more deeper understanding?

---Absolutely it can! I told you I agree with you! But with all due respect, this is how I foresee this topic progressing based on my past experience of your posting habits...... You will ask for people to give input as to their understanding of the "platform/energetics" of their WCK. As people try to explain this, you will make vague comments suggesting that what they are saying is not quite right or that they are missing something. Then when they ask you directly what you are referring to, or ask you to contribute your own understanding of the "platform/energetics" of your own WCK, you will give only vague answers....will resort to quoting song lyrics....will use strange analogies that are hard to follow....or will post some very philosophical sounding verbiage. But you will never provide any real, solid information. You will avoid answering the very question that you have asked others to answer. You have done that often in the past. The "Hendrik fans" will post some "oh yea!" and maybe quote some lyrics on their own. The "Hendrik detractors" will post "there he goes again, same old Hendrik, he doesn't really know WCK!", and those of us that are just trying to learn something will be left frustrated and disappointed. Just my opinion, but this is how topics such as this have developed in the past.

And BTW, two way street can be one from the land the other a direct flight with Helicopter. or one from the sea and one by submarine. expecting always I come with Gray Hound is not good. I might come from submarine and get up from the waste water "sue" drain and take a Bart underground. since we are not talking about GRAY HOUND the label but Transportation, any type of transportation right? hahaha.

---See. You prove my point. I don't care what "route" you take in your conversation. The point is that you seldom arrive at the "destination." I'll say it again. You can't continue to ask questions of people that you refuse to answer yourself. Often people take offense at this and see it as being somewhat rude and evasive. It doesn't matter if it is "Zen" or not. If people are engaging in a conversation with someone that they consider to be on equal footing, then they expect equal consideration.

According to a great book "Mindfulness In Plain English"
http://www.geocities.com/tranquilo_guest_house/Vi****ana.html
which recomended by my friend is that

---Again, you prove my point. We are not talking about Zen teaching styles. We are talking about WCK, and conversations on a discussion forum. I am not your Zen student, and you are not my Buddhist teacher. Lets talk plainly about WCK.

---Please Hendrik, don't take offense. If you are here to really participate in discussions then I am ready to talk! But if you are only here to tease and inspire, then I won't waste my keystrokes. I supported you as much as I could here in your past incarnations, but if you are going to resort to your old posting style, then things are not going to be very productive.

Keith

t_niehoff

02-24-2005, 03:12 PM

Hendrik,

How do we know if we are "integrated" or the level of our "integration"? Not theoretically, but practically?

anerlich

02-24-2005, 03:26 PM

And BTW, two way street can be one from the land the other a direct flight with Helicopter. or one from the sea and one by submarine. expecting always I come with Gray Hound is not good. I might come from submarine and get up from the waste water "sue" drain and take a Bart underground. since we are not talking about GRAY HOUND the label but Transportation, any type of transportation right?

I think this points out the limitations of "integration", the requirement for a single engine, and the questionable value of the car analogy.

A car's fine for travelling on roads. To travel across different terrain, underwater, through the air, etc. you need a different vehicle with different engine and different attributes.

I supported you as much as I could here in your past incarnations, but if you are going to resort to your old posting style, then things are not going to be very productive.

Yeah Keith, I seem to remember you getting in my face when I was getting in Hendrik's about exactly this sort of thing. I was right and you wrong, huh? :cool:

But if you are only here to tease and inspire

Inspire? Oh, puh-leez... :rolleyes:

KPM

02-25-2005, 03:45 AM

Yeah Keith, I seem to remember you getting in my face when I was getting in Hendrik's about exactly this sort of thing. I was right and you wrong, huh? :cool:

---Maybe so! We'll see if anything has changed. :-) I interacted with Hendrik on another forum when he left here and got the same treatment as before. I'm afraid I've run out of patience for Hendrik's "Master Yoda" approach to forum interactions. I truly believe he has knowledge to share, and that he can do so in a straight-forward manner when he wants to.

Keith

PaulH

02-25-2005, 10:15 AM

Hendrik

02-25-2005, 11:21 AM

I supported you as much as I could here in your past incarnations, but if you are going to resort to your old posting style, then things are not going to be very productive. -------

Keith,

Thank you and appreciate that you support me. However, please dont support me. For I dont have anything to repay your great support.

So, here, I would like to urge anyone to not support me because I dont have anything to pay back. and I dont have a Fan club or a cult. I am just an ordinary guy same with everyone with nothing to pay back or to give.

"
---Maybe so! We'll see if anything has changed. :-) I interacted with Hendrik on another forum when he left here and got the same treatment as before. I'm afraid I've run out of patience for Hendrik's "Master Yoda" approach to forum interactions. I truly believe he has knowledge to share, and that he can do so in a straight-forward manner when he wants to. ---------------

Since it is a free open discussion forum, you are free on your own will.

As of another forum or any forum, doesnt matter what treatment I get. I embrace others opinions because everyone has thier points.

As I post above,

"May be if you want to learn about Yik Kam's "depths of contents" art then , a good way is to directly go bai si and learn from some Yik Kam's lineage people.

To be honest, I might also dont know the "depths of contents" of Yik Kam's art. "

if you really read my post you will not be having the idea of ----

"I've run out of patience for Hendrik's "Master Yoda" approach to forum interactions."

Thanks and appreicate for your comments and critics.

Hendrik

02-25-2005, 11:35 AM

I see one problem, Keith. Hendrik connects Zen teaching to WCK. You don't. Also his style is more of giving sign posts to the destination. People are free to investigate further on their own of what they see if they so choose or they can reject the whole thing altogether.

Regards, =)

Hey Paul,

first dont support me, discussion ok. but not support me. I have nothing to give or repay you.

You see, that

" ... two separate tacks. The first is the direct plunge into awareness by sheer force of will. You sit down and you just sit, meaning that you toss out of your mind everything except pure awareness of
sitting. This sounds very simple. It is not.
A brief trial will demonstrate just how difficult it really is.

The second Zen approach used in the Rinzai school is that of tricking the mind
out of conscious thought and into pure awareness. This is done
by giving the student an unsolvable riddle which he must solve
anyway, and by placing him in a horrendous training situation.

Since he cannot flee from the pain of the situation, he must flee
into a pure experience of the moment. There is nowhere else to
go. Zen is tough. It is effective for many people, but it is
really tough...."

Some might see it as, what the heck is this got to do with WCK?

Some might see it as, boy, hendrik is going nuts again.

Some might see it as, the dam hendrik is giving out the secret of Yik Kam kuen kuit again implicitly.

Some might see it as, one can now have a direction to cultivate what Mas Oyama is talking about. ---

"and possibly greatest, addition by Oyama in his synthesis of kyokushin karate is the concept of Zen. In a Zen state of mind, one thinks nothing. The mind is completely cleared of all intruding thoughts and emotions. The mind simply relaxes; it does not focus precisely on any particular detail. The mind focuses on nothing, yet perceives everything. Can this concept not be put to great use in karate? "

Some might see, oh hendrik is being big mouth taking about the top secret Awareness development process.

Some might see, oh this is why Osense is saying " Akido has no time and space.."

Some might see it as hendrik, what a joke.....

Well, different people has different angle of view. and non of them is wrong.
so hendrik deserve to get all critics and opinions and... because that is a reality.

OSU!
http://www.geocities.com/irek65/osu.html

Hendrik

02-25-2005, 11:53 AM

Hendrik,

How do we know if we are "integrated" or the level of our "integration"? Not theoretically, but practically?

Thus, one needs ZEN :D

to develop that AWARENESS , so one can aware of one is thinking.
so one can AWARE of what one dont Aware. Oyama seems to have done it. and since Kyokushin kai is practical. The Zen way must have some merit.

Thinking will not go very far, eventhought thinking is great for analytical. But, Thinking can get us into that ---

if I have a Hammer in my hand then everything in the world is a "nail" logic.

and ofcorse the Osense, the Muay Thai, the BJJ.... lot of people done it great. so, there are many ways.

You know, last night I was watching Richard Gere and Jenifer Lopez's "Shall we Dance". Sorry to not reply your post immediately.

I am thinking of taking Ball Room dancing because I see that is very ZEN and integrated. hahaaha

serious, let see what happen in the movie.

RG was practiced dancing alone with this stick. look like the 6.5 pole drill in elegant way.

JL was teaching RG that Mumba is about --- Vertical expression of Horizontal Wish.....

JL was telling RG --- you look blue. Keep breathing.

JL was telling RG -- Give me an hour. ... Dont Think ... let ...

JL was commenting another blad dance who throw away his wig, as , " he seems to throw away more then his wig." Great stuff!

I am sure going to learn about Ball Room Dancing. There is lots of Zen and integration and great dynamic moving mind/physical body. seems to be very fun too!
and always go learn new stuffs, open up one's view or make the AWARENESS grow.

lets mumba and OSU!

t_niehoff

02-25-2005, 12:39 PM

Hendrik,

How do we know physically that we are integrated? Someone may think or believe they are integrated but be mistaken. How can I prove to others, or myself, my level of integration?

Hendrik

02-25-2005, 12:43 PM

Hendrik,

How do we know physically that we are integrated? Someone may think or believe they are integrated but be mistaken. How can I prove to others, or myself, my level of integration?

Terence,

how do you address the big picture and details of the following 3 components?
the 3 components--
Platform/structure Charateristics, Energetics of the platform/structure, and contact capability of the platfrom/ energetics.

this is one of my real life hero.
http://www.fjmreflexology.com/news.htm

he is self-taugh, not some grandmater or line holder but he had integrated a great art /system to help millions of others.

while we might dreaming/thinking of keep preparing of fight which never happen or might be waiting in our life. Just IMHHHO.

as for how can one prove? I think asking father Josef's will be a good one or read into Oyama's bio.... since they have done it.

and may be, IMHHO,
Perhaps, integrating is not everyone's cup of tea. so, the Easyway, lets go learn Muay Thai, or BJJ or Kyokushin kai .......ect since they train, spar, and compete in the same maner according to thier teaching and phylosophy. so one doesnt have to think but learn and just do it the Muay Thai or BJJ or Kyokushin kai way.

That safe lots of spining thinking.

OSU!

t_niehoff

02-25-2005, 01:06 PM

Hendrik

02-25-2005, 01:30 PM

Hendrik,

There are many people who do great things, and like your hero, don't need martial arts. If one's concern is buddhism or spiritual growth or personal growth or helping others, then get out of MAs and into those areas.

But this is the WCK forum, and the concern should be about WCK, and the "integration" of WCK as a fighting method.

So if you're talking about that sort of integration, I ask my question again -- how do we know, and how can anyone know, what their level of integration is in WCK's fighting method? It seems to me that if one cannot answer that question clearly and straightforwardly, that they don't know how, and all this is just theory/specualtion.

first and very obvious, you and me has different view on WCK.

second, As I ask you above.

how do you address the big picture and details/process of implementation of the following 3 components?

the 3 components--
Platform/structure Charateristics, Energetics of the platform/structure, and contact capability of the platfrom/ energetics.

Until you adress the above 3 how can I know or anyone or even yourself know what are you talking about?

It is like asking the Question
how do we know, and how can anyone know, what their level of integration is making a brand X automobile method?

it is like in the business school when one says I am going to sell some garget. and how can one know the garget will make money.... Well? what is that garget ?

So,
First you need to address the above 3. as in the Automobile analogy, Get the automobile's rack, enginee, wheels before anything can proceed.

Otherwise, you are doing "Garget" theoretical thinking work. how can a "GARGET" theoretical imaginary thinking work can be know, how can anyone know what GARGET you have, what their level of integration is ? Cant, because that is some one's thought GARGET. and what is that GARGET?

So, Terence, spill the 3 components of whatever system or WCK or KCW , its big picture, details, process of implementation in a tangible manner. then others can understand what do you have as a begining or first step.

one needs to have the baby first and the world will know one has a baby.

OSU!

Jim Roselando

02-25-2005, 02:11 PM

Hello,

how do we know, and how can anyone know, what their level of integration is in WCK's fighting method? It seems to me that if one cannot answer that question clearly and straightforwardly, that they don't know how, and all this is just theory/specualtion.

In "any" Kung Fu fighting art, before you start fighting you are taught all kinds of stuff. This is the foundation of cultivating/shaping the body to produce the desired Ging (and other stuff) of the art. The discussion is about the stuff that goes on before/inside (and while you fight) and not just the final product!

So, (this part of this topic rings a lot of truth so I will repeat it) just like KFC has every KFC using the 11 herb/spice, would it still be KFC if it didn't or someone substituted some of them with other stuff? Would the Rolex still be the Rolex if it had a Timex engine? How can one honestly discuss if one never even tried the KFC to know what those 11 do for the taste of the chicken hmmm?????????

So! It seems to me that if one cannot answer or discuss the spice and herb of WCK clearly and straightforwardly, that they should still be able to discuss what spices they are using with their WCK. Or! Maybe this topic is not for everyone! Maybe talking about how Mr X used Tan Da against MR V's Cross is all that some enjoy discussing or hearing. Yet! Just because someone can fight does it mean its WCK? If I use Hung Gar horse with WCK fist and fight like a wildman am I still a WCK man????

Just my opinion!

Gotta run!

Regards,

KPM

02-25-2005, 03:03 PM

Hey Hendrik!

Thank you and appreciate that you support me. However, please dont support me. For I dont have anything to repay your great support.

---I don't expect any "repayment." I just expect equity in willingness to share openly. You are just resorting to the "humble cop out." :p You have what.....20 yrs of experience in CMAs? You know a version of WCK that few of us have ever seen. You have plenty of knowledge and experience to share if you were just willing to do it. Its too easy to act all humble and claim to know nothing when it is convenient to do so. All I'm asking for is honesty and openness. If you are here to talk about WCK, then please do it! If you want to talk about Buddhist philosophy, I'm sure there are lots of good forums for that elsewhere.

As of another forum or any forum, doesnt matter what treatment I get. I embrace others opinions because everyone has thier points.

---No. I meant the treatment that I got.....from you. You came into a discussion, said that what I had posted was off target, but then would not elaborate on why or in what way. When I asked questions of you directly, you either just ignored them, or gave vague answers. That's what I have been talking about. That has been your pattern in the past. If you are here to discuss WCK, then great! Please discuss! But like I said before, don't start asking questions of others that you are unwilling to openly answer yourself. None of us are your Zen student, nor are you anyone here's Buddhist teacher. This is a WCK forum. Can't we just talk openly and plainly about WCK?

if you really read my post you will not be having the idea of ----
"I've run out of patience for Hendrik's "Master Yoda" approach to forum interactions."

---We'll see! :) The pattern has already started to develop.

Keith

PaulH

02-25-2005, 03:14 PM

Speaking for myself, Hendrik... You owe me Nada. =)

"For in truth it is life that gives unto life - while you, who deem yourself a giver, are but a witness.

And you receivers - and you are all receivers - assume no weight of gratitude, lest you lay a yoke upon yourself and upon him who gives.

Rather rise together with the giver on his gifts as on wings;

For to be overmindful of your debt, is to doubt his generosity who has the free-hearted earth for mother, and God for father. - Gibran"

anerlich

02-25-2005, 10:09 PM

Also his style is more of giving sign posts to the destination.

IMO he gives no evidence that he has been anywere near the destination or has the faintest idea of how to get there, and thus his directions must be regarded as suspect.

Hendrik connects Zen teaching to WCK.

Correction, "Hendrik tries to connect Zen teaching to WCK". His success in that endeavour, and its appropriateness in the first place, is open to challenge.

The introduction of the word "Zen", sutras, history, and related doggerel does not magically promote the import or relevance of the content of a post, as numerous examples on this thread and elsewhere indicate, though many inexplicably seem to feel otherwise.

PaulH

02-26-2005, 11:08 AM

Guilty on both counts, Anerlich. It's up to the judicious readers to sip through all the "evidences" and render their final verdict. =D

Hendrik

02-27-2005, 10:43 PM

Guilty on both counts, Anerlich. It's up to the judicious readers to sip through all the "evidences" and render their final verdict. =D

St. Pual and all the St.

"father for I have sin..."
I have sin for I am the one who is nuts and dont know what I am talking about.

Zen is no more then a tool to see the original face or the awareness. A tool similar to the Biofeedback training...

Which art doesnt have to put Awareness as the most important key? Chinese martial art from Shao Lin to Wudang to Emei To.. Oyama's Kyokushin ..which one doesnt place the Awareness, the Original face, the Shen, The Dao as the key?

Does hendrik connect Zen to his WCK or hendrik is just a messanger same with all other messangers to relay what is there? --- Awareness is the core platform of an Art. The glue of all integration. Unless one is a Robort who is dead and only do as programmed. or a person lost in one's thinking who keeps think the thinking is everything.

People asked hendrik about Why do he didnt answer a particular question the way those who ask want.

You know, it is similar to ask those who has master one's EEG brain wave handling on What logic pattern to analitically Think to get to Theta wave.

Well, one dont ANALITICALLY THINK to get into Theta.

one can keep thinking/Analitical, keep on busy thinking/analized with different kind of logic, and keeps busying thinking/analitical all the discrimation or the critics..., one is guareentee to get stuck in Beta. That simple.

If that basic is not even understood, how the heck one is talking about managing stress? not to mention about taking Pressure and behave under pressure. One simple has no control.

Thus, to asking for Evidence based on how to think analitically LOGICALLY to enter Theta, or request answer on what logic to analitically think to enter Theta is totally absurd and hopeless. What depth to talk about or can be talk about on entering Theta? with a mind stuck in Beta and keep speculating analitical Thinking is everything including alter state?

father I have sin, for I have to keep singing that old song.

Like the strangers that you've met
The ragged men in ragged clothes
The silver thorn of bloody rose
Lie crushed and broken on the virgin snow

Now I think I know
What you tried to say to me
And how you suffered for your sanity
And how you tried to set them free
They would not listen
They're not listening still
Perhaps they never will...

St. Paul, I have sin for I am the one who is nuts and dont know what I am talking about, I am sure guilty. .. doom me so I cannot enter .

OSU!

KPM

02-28-2005, 03:47 AM

Hendrik!

Once again...............can't we just talk openly and plainly about WCK? Is that too much to ask? If you are not here to talk about WCK, then why are you here?

Keith

PaulH

02-28-2005, 10:01 AM

If you are awake, you would realize by now that I have no power to doom you! =)
Perhaps you should appeal the GM Anerlich. You will have your petition request granted speedily! =D

yylee

02-28-2005, 10:28 AM

St. Pual and all the St.

St. Paul, I have sin for I am the one who is nuts and dont know what I am talking about, I am sure guilty. .. doom me so I cannot enter .

As I have heard, you are not alone. I heard some BaGua people who spoke of this theta/beta wave thingy, they say they can 'see' all the possibilities and variations in every move once they 'tuned' in. Guess MA people are nutty at times....

Hendrik

02-28-2005, 11:17 AM

As I have heard, you are not alone. I heard some BaGua people who spoke of this theta/beta wave thingy, they say they can 'see' all the possibilities and variations in every move once they 'tuned' in. Guess MA people are nutty at times....

one doesnt call it a game of Chess, when what one do is keeping thinking at how to locate one's chess in one's side of the chess board;
and keep re arranging one's chess arangement without awaring that the other part of chess board exist, and the two living beings who are playing ....

if one cant even aware of that. then what to talk about the steps taken while playing?

One can start to learn about swiming by starting with laying on the land, learn to aware about one's body and its function without get into water ,and then get into water and learn to aware of the differences.....

But one can definately not learning about swiming by sit on a sofa reading book, keep thinking, and analyzing about a Widget called Swiming; and dont even aware of one is laying on a sofa and fantasing ; and, human has a mind, a body.....

OSU!

anerlich

02-28-2005, 04:09 PM

You know, it is similar to ask those who has master one's EEG brain wave handling on What logic pattern to analitically Think to get to Theta wave.

There is NO similarity. This has nothing to do with the subject of Keith's questions.

I see no evidence that you have any mastery over your EEG, though exactly how such abilities are of value other than as a party trick for the impressionable is highly questionable.

they say they can 'see' all the possibilities and variations in every move once they 'tuned' in.

And I'll bet they still can't fight.

PaulH

02-28-2005, 08:41 PM

Okay, Anerlich. How would you go about addressing Buddhist mudra elements in the finger pointing to the moon (Biu Jee), the prayer or protective hand of Buddha (Wu Sau), the renunciation or fearless hand of Buddha (Ding Sau), the subdue or control of desire hand (Fook Sau); On method, the deliberate slow pace almost meditative like of the SLT opening (Here and Now). And then there are important concepts with Buddhist wisdom like "Facing and chasing center" (Illusion) ; Let go ; Fist comes from the heart, etc... I'm curious on what is your take on these strange alien relics? =D

anerlich

02-28-2005, 09:15 PM

PaulH

02-28-2005, 09:40 PM

KPM

03-01-2005, 03:52 AM

one doesnt call it a game of Chess, when what one do is keeping thinking at how to locate one's chess in one's side of the chess board;
and keep re arranging one's chess arangement without awaring that the other part of chess board exist, and the two living beings who are playing ....

if one cant even aware of that. then what to talk about the steps taken while playing?

One can start to learn about swiming by starting with laying on the land, learn to aware about one's body and its function without get into water ,and then get into water and learn to aware of the differences.....

But one can definately not learning about swiming by sit on a sofa reading book, keep thinking, and analyzing about a Widget called Swiming; and dont even aware of one is laying on a sofa and fantasing ; and, human has a mind, a body.....

OSU!

Are we talking about WCK yet? IMHO, speaking plainly and too the point should be considered a virtue.

Keith

Hendrik

03-01-2005, 09:24 AM

IMO these are cultural trimmings. Brazilian Jiu Jitsu shows that retaining the traditional and cultural base of a combat system is not necessary to become proficient in it or for it to retain its efficacy. Arguably the cultural attachments can impede rather than promote competence in the art.

You mention the finger pointing to the moon? All that stuff is the finger.

There is mich that is noble and good about that, and I do not suggest that it cannot be a hugely positive influence. But IMO it is absolutely NOT essential or necessary. Enlightenment comes from within.

Just IMHHHHHO,

1, BJJ is not the STANDARD reference of ALL MARTIAL ART.

2, ZEN is a methodology of Mind/brain training on AWARENESS not a Cultural trimmings. One can go to lab and measure the brain's EEG handling to prove that. And EEG can monitor one's mind/body condition.

3, There is no Enlightenment comes from within when one doesnt have a technology to deal with one's EEG. Wishfull thinking, logical derivation, or critics maybe but that is not even close to be able to handle one's brain's EEG state and Aware of what one doesnt aware or go beyond one's identity or personality consciousness.

how can that wishfull thinking help one to even handle daily stress? how can that unaware personal conciousness grow out of the box? IE. one can think to be open minded and love to try different food but not knowing that all the food one knows is only Chinese foods? how far can that go beyond chinese food?

just IMHHHO

Hendrik

03-01-2005, 09:32 AM

Thanks, Anerlich! I'm sure that there are many people here who hold your view also. The future belongs to the bold arrows streaking across the open sky. I for one enjoy their freedom though sometimes I do look back with nostalgia that old sturdy bow - one that launches a thousand heads and one that we left behind. =D

The Beauty of SLT design is that it starts the set with dealling with the brain.
Brain/mind handling is a part of the system core.

IMHHO.

Hendrik

03-01-2005, 09:55 AM

Are we talking about WCK yet? IMHO, speaking plainly and to the point should be considered a virtue.

WCK according to who? to the point according to who ? in this free integration and mixing era.

OSU!

Hendrik

03-01-2005, 11:02 AM

A macroscopic view which embrace the 3 important things on integraton I have post in the begining of discussion:

IMHO,

Consider the three-tiered pyramid. At the top is Wing Chun Identity, the holistic based. It is a vast domain of Awareness, enegertics, Qi flow, physical dynamics, strategy.....Those who feel most comfortable at this top level are system designers, system creators, philosophers, serious explorers.

The second tier of the pyramid consists of methods, procedures, structures, models, and techniques that WCK or WCK theory can strengthen considerably. This second tier is where the WCK rule base resides, and there are many other methods at this level. This is where domain experts belong as well, at least those who feel comfortable with WCK and are able to apply it to the methods they use in their own domains.

Applications make up the third tier of the pyramid, its base. This is where the problems are solved. These are the domains of domain experts, where knowledge unique to the problem is more important than knowledge of the inner workings of WCK structures- - although how you apply WCK, and other combative methods, is critical.

The first tier, WCK "identity" /way , feeds the second tier, WCK methods, which, in turn, feeds the third tier, applications.

Thus, we need to know the big picture and where we are while in an integration discussion.

jumping into fighting and limiting one to this is tan that is fook.... that is very limited type of view.

just some thoughts.

PaulH

03-01-2005, 12:15 PM

I see that you like the pyramid of the US one dollar bill, Hendrik! =D

According to the US Treasury, here is the truth of the pyramid:

________________________________

eRumorIf you look at the left hand circle, you will see a Pyramid. Notice the face is lighted and the western side is dark. This country was just beginning. We had not begun to explore the West or decided what we could do for Western Civilization.

The Truth: First, the pyramid was not a part of the proposals for the Great Seal until the third committee. It was not suggested by Jefferson, Franklin, and Adams. As to the lighting on the East or West of the pyramid, we did not find any such official explanation.

eRumorThe Pyramid is UN-capped, again signifying that we were not even close to being finished.

The Truth: This appears to be accurate. The unfinished state of the pyramid was intentional. Also, Charles Thompson, in his remarks to congress about the symbolism on the Great Seal, said the pyramid represented "Strength and Duration."

eRumorInside the capstone you have the all-seeing eye, and ancient symbol for divinity. It was Franklin's belief that one man couldn't do it alone, but a group of men, with the help of God, could do anything.

The Truth: Although Franklin's committee did not suggest a pyramid, it did originate the suggestion of the eye. The term "the all-seeing eye" is never used in describing it. The Franklin committee wanted the seal to include a reflection of divine providence and discussed a variety of themes including the Children of Israel in the Wilderness. Some have suggested that the pyramid and the eye are the result of Masonic influence, but the only member of the original committee who was a Mason was Franklin and this committee's design was rejected by congress. None of the final designers of the seal was a Mason. The eye as representing "the eye of providence" has a long history. It's more likely that both the designers of the Great Seal and the Masons both drew from that history. The use of "the all seeing eye" as uniquely Masonic first appeared in 1797, nearly 15 years after the adoption of the symbolism by Congress. The Latin above the pyramid, ANNUIT COEPTIS, means "God has favored our undertaking."

The Truth: This is true.

eRumorThe Latin below the pyramid, NOVUS ORDO SECLORUM, means "a new order has begun."

The Truth: The government's translation of this phrase is, "A new order for the ages."

eRumorAt the base of the pyramid is the Roman Numeral for 1776.

The Truth: This is true.

Hendrik

03-01-2005, 02:49 PM

St. Pual,

The three-tiered pyramid is a model to explain my idea. what a model can do is what it worth.

we can use the eye on the top of the pyramid to model the AWARENESS as that is the source of the pyramid and the "thing" that keep the wholeness of the pyramid. and the three-tiered can be the mind, breathing, and physical body.

Using The three tiered pyramid model accompanion with the 3 things, 4 level of art, and 4 stages of implementation process IMHO one can serve as a map to figure out what happen or where we are or how things related or different or where things get stuck .......etc

Linking with the 3 things:
Platform characteristics, energetics, Contact ability.

The 4 level of art.
1,sets training, 2, applications training, 3, Kuen Kuit training, 4, Sum Fat or insight scoop training.

The 4 Stages of implementation/realization process.
1, learning 2, crystalized what was learn 3, absorbtion into daily living. 4, become a components of living.

I develop these models to serve as a "GPS" so that one can find a direction.
it is more benificial to be used for a self-check then checking others. IMHHO.

In additional, the 2nd tiered are were different lineages developed. the 3rd tiered is where rapid grow constantly happing. Thus, one can trace the aligntment from philosophy to modern applications.

Sometimes, one might found that the pyramid is without the 1st tier. Sometimes there even has no second tier. Sometimes people get stuck at the first tier. Sometimes people import something which is not fitting the 1st tier. and Sometimes people import first tier with is not fitting.... and etc...

just some thoughts.

PaulH

03-01-2005, 03:23 PM

Ah, neat little pyramid model! John Wooden, the legendary UCLA basketball coach, has a pyramid model of success also. Call me George next time if you insist on being so formal and don't forget my little green dragon, too. =)

anerlich

03-01-2005, 04:01 PM

1, BJJ is not the STANDARD reference of ALL MARTIAL ART.

Never said it was. Neither is WC. It illustrates my point that cultural trappings can be dispensed with without altering the efficacy of an MA, and in some cases (BJJ for one) the dispensing of cultral trappings can improve the art.

2, ZEN is a methodology of Mind/brain training on AWARENESS not a Cultural trimmings. One can go to lab and measure the brain's EEG handling to prove that. And EEG can monitor one's mind/body condition.

I was responding to Paul's questions about Buddhist mudra(s), not any of your gobbledegook about Zen. Zen comes from Buddhism, but Buddhism is a cultural phenomenon as well as whatever you consider Zen to be.

3, There is no Enlightenment comes from within when one doesnt have a technology to deal with one's EEG.

The EEG is an outward manifestation of many qualities. Psychoactive drugs can probably also effect the EEG (Keith?) but this is not necessarily a good thing.

Wishfull thinking, logical derivation, or critics maybe but that is not even close to be able to handle one's brain's EEG state and Aware of what one doesnt aware or go beyond one's identity or personality consciousness.

That doesn't actually make sense or form a sentence, but I would suggest:

Enlightenment may result in EEG changes. (How would you know?)

EEG changes alone, or control over them, do not lead to enlightenment.

I saw a very interesting experiment on a local science show here, where EEG changes were used to switch equipment on and off. Through basic biofeedback, nearly all subjects learned to switch a fan on and off through manipulation of their alpha waves. Obvious possible uses for the disabled.

Perhaps this is less difficult and more prosaic than you seem to want to make it out to be.

An enlightenment of sorts, perhaps, but not what you are speaking of.

And for fighting? "Stay back! Or I'll hit you with a theta blast!" :p :p

Hendrik

03-01-2005, 04:05 PM

An enlightenment of sorts, perhaps, but not what you are speaking of.

And for fighting? "Stay back! Or I'll hit you with a theta blast!" :p :p

Keep Thinking and keep getting Enligtenment. ;)

KPM

03-01-2005, 05:54 PM

The EEG is an outward manifestation of many qualities. Psychoactive drugs can probably also effect the EEG (Keith?) but this is not necessarily a good thing.

---You bet they can! :eek:

EEG changes alone, or control over them, do not lead to enlightenment.

---I agree. If all it took to be enlightened was reaching a specific brainstate that is measurable by EEG, we could just hook people up, use some biofeedback techniques to teach them to achieve this state, and then churn out Zen Masters by the dozens! :)

Keith

Hendrik

03-01-2005, 06:02 PM

---I agree. If all it took to be enlightened was reaching a specific brainstate that is measurable by EEG, we could just hook people up, use some biofeedback techniques to teach them to achieve this state, and then churn out Zen Masters by the dozens! :)

you will surprise how many so called ZEN and Qigong masters were filter out by EEG measurement.

EEG certainly cannot know is one enlightenment.

However, EEG can tell is one BSing and stuck in Beta no matter how clever one's logical or wisdom qouting or how good the mimic posture or movements of meditation or Qigong is.

Thus, even EEG cannot tell whether one is enlightement or not. EEG can tell if one has the capability to become enlightent.

Without be able to control the brain there is no good WCK.

KPM

03-01-2005, 06:10 PM

Hi Hendrik!

----OK. Now we are starting to get back on track! Your pyramid model is similar to "Maslow's Hierachy of Needs" from a WCK perspective. :) It is a good model to provide a structure for consideration and discussion, but still relatively simplistic and superficial. It does not address the "depths of contents" you mentioned, nor does it describe the "platform/energetics" that you mentioned as being very important to know.

Consider the three-tiered pyramid. At the top is Wing Chun Identity, the holistic based. It is a vast domain of Awareness, enegertics, Qi flow, physical dynamics, strategy.....Those who feel most comfortable at this top level are system designers, system creators, philosophers, serious explorers.

---OK. The "pinnacle" of achievement. The "realm of the Masters." :rolleyes:

The second tier of the pyramid consists of methods, procedures, structures, models, and techniques that WCK or WCK theory can strengthen considerably. This second tier is where the WCK rule base resides, and there are many other methods at this level. This is where domain experts belong as well, at least those who feel comfortable with WCK and are able to apply it to the methods they use in their own domains.

---OK. The realm of someone who knows WCK thoroughly. The "expert." The overall guiding concepts and principles of the system.

Applications make up the third tier of the pyramid, its base. This is where the problems are solved. These are the domains of domain experts, where knowledge unique to the problem is more important than knowledge of the inner workings of WCK structures- - although how you apply WCK, and other combative methods, is critical.

---I would say that this is the realm of the WCK "learner." Although we are always learning and improving at every level, the base of the hierachy would be where we are still completing our knowledge of the system. This would be the realm of biomechanics....how we move and react.

The first tier, WCK "identity" /way , feeds the second tier, WCK methods, which, in turn, feeds the third tier, applications.

---Pyramids usually work the other way around. The base supports and "feeds" the rest. Each level is required to form and therefore "feeds" the level that comes after it. Once you reach the "pinnacle", then you no longer have to think about or be concerned about biomechanics...the base. But you have to walk before you can run, and you have to understand the basics before you resort to lofty philosophical concepts.

Thus, we need to know the big picture and where we are while in an integration discussion.

---OK. I can go along with that. So.....you started this whole thread about integration by saying we needed to know WCK's "platform/energetics." That sounds like the foundational material to me and ought to be at the base of the pyramid. So lets start at the bottom and talk about the foundational "platform/energetics." How would you describe your understanding of the "platform/energetics" of your personal WCK? Are you ready to really talk about WCK? Or are you going to stay with vague generalities? :eek:

Keith

Hendrik

03-01-2005, 06:18 PM

----OK. Now we are starting to get back on track! Your pyramid model is similar to "Maslow's Hierachy of Needs" from a WCK perspective. :) It is a good model to provide a structure for consideration and discussion, but still relatively simplistic and superficial. It does not address the "depths of contents" you mentioned, nor does it describe the "platform/energetics" that you mentioned as being very important to know. -----------

Maslow is beyond my level. and
Greed is also a relative term. Thus, in WCK we do Small idea and simplisitc idea.

---Pyramids usually work the other way around. The base supports and "feeds" the rest. Each level is required to form and therefore "feeds" the level that comes after it. Once you reach the "pinnacle", then you no longer have to think about or be concerned about biomechanics...the base.

But you have to walk before you can run, and you have to understand the basics before you resort to lofty philosophical concepts.

---OK. I can go along with that. So.....you started this whole thread about integration by saying we needed to know WCK's "platform/energetics." That sounds like the foundational material to me and ought to be at the base of the pyramid. So lets start at the bottom and talk about the foundational "platform/energetics." ---------

if you dont like the model the feel free to make yourself one.
if you want to learn about platform.... do a Bai Si to some line holder, grandmasters and learn from them.

no yoda master here but just a poor Maslow's student.

BTW, the pyramid or http://chiron.valdosta.edu/whuitt/col/regsys/maslow.html is also a Cultural trimmings who lives in around palo alto, New york, or Wisconsin similar to Maslow, no shao lin temple around . so if you are ET it is not needed ! :D

anerlich

03-01-2005, 07:15 PM

you will surprise how many so called ZEN and Qigong masters were filter out by EEG measurement.

There's been a scientific study done, with published results? Please elaborate, with a link if possible.

However, EEG can tell is one BSing and stuck in Beta no matter how clever one's logical or wisdom qouting or how good the mimic posture or movements of meditation or Qigong is.

If you need to look at a person's EEG to tell whether they are talking crap, I feel sorry for you. For some reason, Hendrik, I keep thinking of you when I read what you wrote ...

Thus, even EEG cannot tell whether one is enlightement or not. EEG can tell if one has the capability to become enlightent.

The word "thus" indicates a conclusion is to be drawn from preceding argument. How does what you wrote earlier lead us to those conclusions?

Has a scientific study been done on the link between EEG and capacity for enlightenment?

How is "capacity for enlightenment" measured in the laboratory?

Consider the three-tiered pyramid. At the top is Wing Chun Identity, the holistic based. It is a vast domain of Awareness, enegertics, Qi flow, physical dynamics, strategy.....Those who feel most comfortable at this top level are system designers, system creators, philosophers, serious explorers.

---OK. The "pinnacle" of achievement. The "realm of the Masters."

Entertaining this model for a moment, I'd dispute that this is the sole province of "masters", etc.. Some people seem to enjoy operating here exclusively, despite their limited ability to function at the lower levels where the rubber hits the road.

OTOH, suggesting that this level is only accessible to deep thinkers, "Masters" and geniuses smacks of elitism. Everyone is creative, everyone has a brain (even if their EEG shows they have no capacity for enlightenment :p :p ). Don't just follow some long-dead authority figure's script, think for yourself.

BJJ (yese,yes, "not the STANDARD reference of ALL MARTIAL ART") shows that it is possible to slip out and replace one or more entire levels, renovating an art without damaging it. Not suggesting this should be done with WC, only that it is possible.

Hendrik

03-01-2005, 07:24 PM

There's been a scientific study done, with published results? Please elaborate, with a link if possible.

If you need to look at a person's EEG to tell whether they are talking crap, I feel sorry for you. For some reason, Hendrik, I keep thinking of you when I read what you wrote ...

The word "thus" indicates a conclusion is to be drawn from preceding argument. How does what you wrote earlier lead us to those conclusions?

Has a scientific study been done on the link between EEG and capacity for enlightenment?

How is "capacity for enlightenment" measured in the laboratory?

Entertaining this model for a moment, I'd dispute that this is the sole province of "masters", etc.. Some people seem to enjoy operating here exclusively, despite their limited ability to function at the lower levels where the rubber hits the road.

OTOH, suggesting that this level is only accessible to deep thinkers, "Masters" and geniuses smacks of elitism. Everyone is creative, everyone has a brain (even if their EEG shows they have no capacity for enlightenment :p :p ). Don't just follow some long-dead authority figure's script, think for yourself.

BJJ (yese,yes, "not the STANDARD reference of ALL MARTIAL ART") shows that it is possible to slip out and replace one or more entire levels, renovating an art without damaging it. Not suggesting this should be done with WC, only that it is possible.

You are definitly an interesting person.

you are right! Don't just follow some long-dead authority figure's script, think for yourself.

The only problem is that if one's doesnt know how to get out from a self-identify Brain Box boundary. No matter how one think, one still think within that boundary.

So, one needs EEG to find out there is a domain that beyond the Thinking boundary. :D

But, you are certainly interesting because one can see the great logic, the great illogic, the logic within the illogic. the illogic within the logic. That make world and life interesting and colorfull.

I guess everyone must be similar in some way.

anerlich

03-01-2005, 08:44 PM

But, you are certainly interesting

And you are certainly patronising! :p

KPM

03-02-2005, 03:45 AM

Hendrik

03-02-2005, 09:38 AM

Hey Hendrik!

Maslow is beyond my level.

---Maslow was talking about basic human needs. You're basically human, aren't you? :p

and Greed is also a relative term.

---Evidently openness, sharing, and generosity are also relative terms.

Thus, in WCK we do Small idea and simplisitc idea.

---And yet you continue to make WCK sound so complicated and philosophical and refuse to discuss those "small ideas."

if you dont like the model the feel free to make yourself one.
if you want to learn about platform.... do a Bai Si to some line holder, grandmasters and learn from them.

---Then I guess your answer is "No"....you aren't ready to really talk about WCK, and "yes"....you prefer to stick to vague generalities. So be it.

no yoda master here but just a poor Maslow's student.

---The "poor Maslow's student" would be willing to talk about how he has meet his "hierachy of needs" and how it compares to other's experience with and knowledge of the hierachy (or pyramid). The "poor student" would be willing to opening share his experiences with other "poor students." Master Yoda would continue to talk in vague generalities, use strange far-reaching analogies, and quote song lyrics and poetry. He wouldn't share openly because he would be afraid he would reveal some archane "secrets" about the force that the "unwashed masses" are not deserving of. You can claim whatever you like, but it is behavior that reveals the real intent and orientation. So I guess that's the end of this discussion, since you have shown time and time again that you are not really here to discuss WCK. So.....just why are you here? Evidently not to learn.....not to teach. Does it satisfy a need of the ego?

Keith

Keith,

you are an interesting person.

The answer you want from me has been provided to you a few times previously.

Which I have shared with you---

Simply:

if you want to learn about platform... depth.... do a Bai Si to some line holder, grandmasters and learn from them.

You might be not reading my post and/or you might not like the answer. and that is fine.

Since the topic title of the discussion is integration and mixing , and not about " some archane "secrets" about the force that the "unwashed masses" are not deserving of........" .

since you do not accept my OPEN answer to you if you want to learn about platform... depth.... do a Bai Si to some line holder, grandmasters and learn from them. Sorry I cannot help you. Sorry to disappointing you, Not a Yoda master here and also not a person according to you.

Reading you posts toward me, it seems evidentally that your intent is to get whatever you want from me with all means.

Here I wishes you the best to find the answer you like and demand from someone else for I dont have what you want disregard of what kind of tactics you use on me. and, a public WCK discussion on integration doesnt have to limit to answer the question you deman.

Up to now, I have shared my models no matter how simplicity or superficial.... what have you share about WCK in this discussion? perhaps this is a good question to you?

Best Wishes

OSU!

KPM

03-02-2005, 12:52 PM

Hey Hendrik!

you are an interesting person.

---Thank you! And you are as well! :)

The answer you want from me has been provided to you a few times previously.
Which I have shared with you---
Simply: if you want to learn about platform... depth.... do a Bai Si to some line holder, grandmasters and learn from them.

---No. I am afraid that is a non-answer. The "platform" of WCK is part of its very basic foundation that a student starts learning from day one. Yet you are unwilling to discuss something this basic. I was just using this to really get to the fact that you are not really here to discuss WCK.

You might be not reading my post and/or you might not like the answer. and that is fine.

---Your answer is no answer. It is just another example of being evasive. You started this thread saying how important is was to know the WCK "platform." Yet you won't talk about it. I find that interesting....revealing.....and frustrating.

Reading you posts toward me, it seems evidentally that your intent is to get whatever you want from me with all means.

---Hendrik my only intent with you is to try and get you to be honest with yourself and with us. For someone that goes on and on about "awareness", you sure seem "unaware" of the dynamics of human interaction. It is now clear that you are not here to talk about WCK and to share your knowledge and experience with the rest of us. Just be honest and admit that you are part of a closed, traditional, "family" system and that you cannot or will not talk openly about Yik Kam WCK. Just be honest! When someone asks you a question, just be honest and say "I'm sorry, I cannot talk about the details of my WCK." Just do that rather than giving evasive, philosophical, non-answers. If you aren't going to talk about WCK itself, just say so! Just be honest! That's all I'm asking!

Here I wishes you the best to find the answer you like and demand from someone else for I dont have what you want disregard of what kind of tactics you use on me. and, a public WCK discussion on integration doesnt have to limit to answer the question you deman.

---My only "tactic", my only "demand" was to try to get you to make it clear that you have no intention of talking about any of the details or specifics of your WCK. You are not here to talk about WCK. You may be talking about different "models" of analyzing WCK, different philosophies of teaching or understanding WCK, etc.....but that is not talking about WCK itself! If you want to talk about philosophy, that is fine. But you might be better served to find a forum with that orientation.

Up to now, I have shared my models no matter how simplicity or superficial.... what have you share about WCK in this discussion? perhaps this is a good question to you?

---I have been trying to get you to actually discuss WCK! We can create "models" until we are blue in the face, but that isn't getting to the "nitty gritty" of how to perform quality WCK. I'm more than willing to contribute my own limited knowledge and experience of my WCK! When you're ready, I'm willing! Again.....my only intent has been to determine if you are really here to talk about WCK, and you have shown that you are not! So just be honest! Be honest with yourself, and be honest with us. I have no ulterior motives, I am not trying to "steal your family secrets." I have just tired of all the evasiveness, hyperbole, and philosophising. I was hoping that on your current incarnation in this forum that you were ready to actually talk about WCK and that I might learn a little something. And that's the honest truth! :)

Keith

PaulH

03-02-2005, 01:36 PM

KPM

03-03-2005, 04:08 AM

Keith,

You have your says and Hendrik his. Let move on to some higher thing! Speaking for myself I'm tired of hearing the unbearably monotonous lightness of sense and sensibility back and forth the forum table in the last few days. Xie Xie! =D

Yes Paul, you are right! I'm a bit tired of it myself. I pushed Hendrik harder than I needed to. But I think a point was made.

Keith

t_niehoff

03-03-2005, 06:52 AM

reneritchie

03-03-2005, 08:45 AM

Hendrik is a fricken WCK tease.

However, most of the world is disgustingly entitled.

There's the rub.

canglong

03-03-2005, 11:59 AM

Hendrik is a fricken WCK tease.
1. No one likes a tease.
2. hendrik has nothing intising to offer those who don't subscribe to his theory.
3. Alienating even his own would be friends he demonstrates a certain disdain for the general discussion of WCK not pertaining to his theory as pointed out on this and many many other threads.

reneritchie

03-03-2005, 12:13 PM

Some people could stand a little alienation.

And the Star Wars prequels and Matrix sequels had teasers and trailers far better than the films turned out to be.

t_niehoff

03-03-2005, 01:01 PM

Hendrik and I may not agree on some things, and we may argue -- from my perspective I find this useful since Hendrik forces me to think and rethink, to research and re-research, to question and requestion, etc. Many like to avoid challenges to their beliefs; I find that this drives growth. Hendrik's research and historical evidence IMO is more compelling than what most others offer, and he may be closer than they are to the true roots of WCK. Our disagreement stems principally from disparate views on the significance of those things to our modern-day practice. So IMO we should give Hendrik credit. He also hasn't labelled himself "grandmaster" (though he is a successor to a lineage -- which appears to be the prevailing standard for those calling themselves "grandmaster"), hasn't tried using his "history" to market himself, isn't into role-playing, etc.

Jim Roselando

03-03-2005, 01:11 PM

T,

Amen!

:)

PaulH

03-03-2005, 01:36 PM

Ernie

03-03-2005, 01:58 PM

PaulH

03-03-2005, 02:07 PM

Of course this means the value of our humble undertaking will go up sky rocketing, Ernie! Look like our Plan B for the Invasion has gone well! =D

Ernie

03-03-2005, 02:09 PM

Of course this means the value of our humble undertaking will go up sky rocketing, Ernie! Look like our Plan B for the Invasion has gone well! =D

Don't make me send Will Smith after he kills aliens and robots that's like 99%of wing chun fantasy-fu

PaulH

03-03-2005, 02:13 PM

You win... Man in Black! I'll be back! =)

anerlich

03-03-2005, 03:24 PM

Many like to avoid challenges to their beliefs; I find that this drives growth.

Hendrik avoids challenges to his unsubstantiated statements. I assume that you didn't actually mean to say that avoidance of challenges drives growth.

So IMO we should give Hendrik credit.

You're entitled to an opinion, as am I.

hasn't tried using his "history" to market himself, isn't into role-playing

You're kidding, right?

He's marketing himself as, and tries to play the role of, a self-appointed sage and intellectual leader having some sort of special insights into WC, Zen, and related subjects, which he used to "inspire" (hah) or "challenge" others, for motivations which I suspect are related to pride rather than altruism.

Whereas his avoidance of dealing with challenges to his unsubstantiated statements, and often the statements themselves, show that this is not the case, as well an extraordinary arrogance.

Other than that, I have no issues with him at all :p

Hendrik

03-03-2005, 03:49 PM

Thus, I have heard, while seeing the Buddha.

first bow and the Buddha said:

The same stone combine with unlimited personality consciousness. There are unlimited "Stone"

second bow and the Buddha said:

with one's own thought one grasp at one's own thought, thus, what is not illusive becomes illusive.

third Bow and the Buddha said:

without going through the 4 levels of implementation/realization

1, learning the material
2, Crystalized
3, Absorve in daily life
4, become a part of living.

There is no Kung Fu.

what is real? what is secret? what is time? what is space? what is fantasy? what is pyramid is about? No Kung Fu.

Thus,

If the BJJ guy has Kung fu then he has Kung Fu, wining is not an accident. he deserves to be respected for his achivement.
If the WCK guy has Kung fu then he has Kung Fu, wining is not an accident. he deserve to be respected for his achivement.
if the Boxing guy has Kung fu then he has kung fu, wining is not an accident. he deserves to be respected for his achivement.

No, Kung Fu is not limited to Chinese Kung Fu. Kung Fu means honest work with learning and insight. IMHHHHO.

But then if one doesnt have a Pyramid, the platform, energetics, contact ability.
Then, one doesnt even start the first step--- Learning the material, How then will one have Kung Fu?

But then if one has a totally screw up mix of everything and "dont know much about pyramid, dont know much and not admit....." then one has a Great TOTAL CONFUSION Wanna Bee Hustle Kung FU ! :D

http://movies.yahoo.com/shop?d=hv&id=1808617679&cf=info

http://movies.yahoo.com/shop?d=hv&id=1808617679&cf=pg&photoid=564291&intl=us

http://movies.yahoo.com/shop?d=hv&id=1808617679&cf=trailer&intl=us

great movie, it has the KUEN KUIT , Hung Gar Iron wire, TaiJi , Tatagatha palm, snake style , FROG style ,... catching Bullets Kung Fu........! Recomended! :D

OSU!

Hendrik

03-03-2005, 04:24 PM

He's marketing himself as, and tries to play the role of, a self-appointed sage and intellectual leader having some sort of special insights into WC, Zen, and related subjects, which he used to "inspire" (hah) or "challenge" others, for motivations which I suspect are related to pride rather than altruism.

Whereas his avoidance of dealing with challenges to his unsubstantiated statements, and often the statements themselves, show that this is not the case, as well an extraordinary arrogance.

Other than that, I have no issues with him at all :p

I see hendrik just having fun giving out ideas.

hahaha.

May be that is the exact reflexion of your desire subsconciously of what you want to be? Come on, admit it! :D

as for Unsubstantiated statement, hehehe, get a EEG machine.
And see if ZEN or AWARENESS training is about Culture Trimming. :D

Relax. I dont share the mission to be that person in your subsconcious. and it is ok for you to fantasy to become one. why not?

who dont want to be a great hero? :D:D:D

Peace!!!

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bow to Buddha the second time:
Dont grasp one's own thought with one's own thought. That makes one's illusion looks real.

anerlich

03-03-2005, 06:56 PM

May be that is the exact reflexion of your desire subsconciously of what you want to be? Come on, admit it!

Save the manipulative pop psychology for the gullible, OK?

Hendrik

03-03-2005, 08:19 PM

Save the manipulative pop psychology for the gullible, OK?

Just for fun of it. Suppose I say this:

have you ever think about the more you critic what I post the more you build up your own model directed by me? because you sure going to do research and search to proof me wrong. What if What if the information I want to pass to you is not the information I post for you to read but the information you will find out for yourself?

because it is more convicing that you find it out yourself. the more you find out what happen in your search will lead to a land slide in your thinking Box and at the end you no longer can live within that thinking box because you convice yourself there are much wider stuffs and freedom and self-actualization out there. the first tier of the pyramid stuffs, the tier of leading to break through. once it break through nothing will be the same again. But there is no lines to cross or points to follow in tier one and curve path can be the shortest path...

That is Sun Tzu chapter VII. MANEUVERING

1. Sun Tzu said: In war, the general receives his
commands from the sovereign.

2. Having collected an army and concentrated his forces,
he must blend and harmonize the different elements thereof
before pitching his camp.

3. After that, comes tactical maneuvering,
than which there is nothing more difficult.
The difficulty of tactical maneuvering consists
in turning the devious into the direct, and misfortune into gain.

4. Thus, to take a long and circuitous route,
after enticing the enemy out of the way, and though starting
after him, to contrive to reach the goal before him,
shows knowledge of the artifice of DEVIATION.....

May be I am using the 2000 years Sun Tzu instead of the POP? and you have long being within the calculation? a component of the first tier of the Pyramid . the first tier or the tier of Break though Identity: so lost is gain, move back ward is forward. circling is direct. it doesnt matter to be love or hate the bottom line is love or hate both lead to remembering. :D

so, dont read my post if you dont want to be influence and change your believe and open your heart.. hahaha

Hey Bro, Nah, I am not that smart. just joking!
so, take the above as a joke.
I will learn to write diplomatic english so not to tick you up and you can feel reading is pleasant.
thanks. peace

OSU!

Hendrik

03-03-2005, 08:38 PM

"Models" are obviously theoretical. We can come up with all kinds of models -- perhaps some are valid, perhaps they're not. How can we tell? By argument? Then we're validating theories with more theories!

It seems to me that the only real value in any model (or theory) is whether or not that model is *helpful* (and how helpful), that it aids the trainee in producing better results. Absent results (the product of testing), there is no way to tell how helpful or un-helpful (unproductive) any model (theory) really is. It comes back to Hawkins' question: "theory is great but can you do it?"

I think it perfectly acceptable for someone to point out that our ancestors did this or that or viewed things this or that way -- there is often (though not always) evidence of those things. But to assume those things are still valid, that those things define WCK, that those views are correct, etc. is to live in the realm of theory. If you can do it, it's not a theory.

TN,

IMHHO,

Models are build to be tear down. rules are made to be broken. By tearing down older or not as accurate or not accurate models and build a better one is about progress.

some one has to start some where building some model if model is needed and needed to be constantly upgrade update....

There is no " only row of tide" in the ocean. a new row of tide always succeed the older row and the new row will be succeed by the newer row...

so the point is if something is needed, we better build one now. be it a fantasy one and day dream one or a BS one. Because after the first model exist. more models will come. and BS model can serve as the mother to lead to the factual models.

as Niels Bohr said it: the opposite of one great truth is another great truth.

may be it is about Sun Tzu chapter VII. MANEUVERING

3. After that, comes tactical maneuvering,
than which there is nothing more difficult.
The difficulty of tactical maneuvering consists
in turning the devious into the direct, and misfortune into gain........

Hope that everyone grow better and better for there is no lost when misfortune is gain and gain is more gain. Cant lost

Peace

OSU!

Hendrik

03-03-2005, 08:57 PM

I'm with Jim. I'm investigating a legendary artifact known as WCship Enterprise to go boldly where no ultimate WCners have gone before. The Hendrik Drive Effect offer illuminating possibility of warp space and time phenomena. The pyramid is just the place to start digging. =)

Pual,

For joking fun!

since you love fantasy.

the song 天地都在我心中 is from the Ching Yong famous chinese martial art novel " the hero of shooting the condor."

天地都在我心中 means heaven and earth are all shown within my heart. 心中 or Xin Jong. Xin is heart Jong is center as center line. Xin Jong means within the heart. actually, heaven and earth are all within my awareness and nothing is left off might be a better translation.

May be 天地都在我心中 is as what Mas Oyama said " In a Zen state of mind, one thinks nothing. The mind is completely cleared of all intruding thoughts and emotions. The mind simply relaxes; it does not focus precisely on any particular detail. The mind focuses on nothing, yet perceives everything. " Who knows if such state exist.

So Xin Fa or heart method or inside scoop or the center elevator of the Pyramid which can travel directly up and down from the based of the third tier to the tip of the top tier. Xin, Jong... all are fun words.

The lyrics:

1,　　一馬奔騰，射雕引弓
2,　　天地都在我心中
3, 真情誰與共，生死可相從
4,　大事臨頭,向前衝，開心胸

1, riding a horse trusting forward, aim at the condor one pulls the bow
2, (at this instant) heaven and earth are all shown within my heart
3, who can share one's true sentiment, who can follow one to live and die?
4, when there is important matter happen, rush foward courageously with a wide open heart.

Well, do you see the Pyramid and the cross bow or WCship Enterprisewhen you shoot the condor? hahahaha

has some dream! Sweet Dream! Nice Dream! But then within Awareness, dream and awake is alike. hahaha :D:D:D

anerlich

03-03-2005, 09:48 PM

What if the information I want to pass to you is not the information I post for you to read but the information you will find out for yourself?

It's pompous and condescending of you to assume that I want or need such information, or that I haven't already found it out for myself and/or know as much or more about it than you.

I've read The Art of War, BTW. Don't go to that effort for my sake.

so, dont read my post if you dont want to be influence and change your believe and open your heart

Having and open mind and heart doesn't require one to accept obvious rubbish uncritically, or to contenance false humility, veiled criticism or crude attempts at manipulation.

Perhaps you need to allow yourself and your beliefs to be influenced and open your heart to what is valid criticism. Perhaps the information I want to pass on to you is what you need to find out about yourself.

Meditate on that, grasshopper, perhaps while manipulating your EEG :rolleyes:

Hendrik

03-03-2005, 11:18 PM

so many I I and You You. No wonder no space for fresh air :D
that must be keep thinking and stuck in Beta operation instead of meditating.

perhaps instead of think sooooo much about I I and You You.
One learn how to handle one's hand movement from the tounge? see, rou is not soft, Tounge is Rou. hahaha

PaulH

03-04-2005, 01:14 AM

Oh good! I have read that novel at least 7 times, but I don't remember ever read that song in the Vietnamese translation. It certainly fits well to the Condor Hero's most endearing trait - a simple and open mind with sincerity and generosity toward friends and foes alike . Of course such people only exist in his fantastic tales, but still I wonder .... =)

KPM

03-04-2005, 03:47 AM

Hendrik:
Wow! Master Yoda is back with a vengeance! Even though you talk about "awareness", nothing I have tried to point out in this thread has made any impression! Hendrik! What happened to the "simple Maslow student"?? Just be honest with us!!!!! Is that so hard!!!! So much evasiveness. So much philosophizing. More quotes. More song lyrics.

You wrote:
---Models are build to be tear down. rules are made to be broken.

I guess all the rules except the rule that keeps you from actually talking about WCK and the rule that keeps you from being honest with us and admitting that the first rule is in effect???? Just be honest! Doesn't Buddhism have something to say about the "honest and sincere heart"??

Paul:
Sorry. I was ready to let it drop. But obviously Hendrik either missed or totally ignored my point. Oh well! :cool:

Keith

Keith

Jim Roselando

03-04-2005, 07:54 AM

Hello all,

For some Hendrik's posts seems to not be what they want or strike a nerve! For others his posts point you in the right direction for you to look into and figure out what he is talking about. A good sifu never hands it to you on the plate. A good sifu points you in the right direction and see's who is willing to investigate or put the work in. Those who want it handed to them get ruffled but those who think, and do the work, get insight that they can go back and discuss or question etc.. I prefer being pointed in the right direction and doing my homework. Then you can see who really wants it! I for one like the way Hendrik posts! Why? It makes me think! A few years back I totally disagreed with Hendrik and even wrote a paragraph in an article that was clearly against his views. Remember the old Wishful Thinking line when I was discussing Noi Gong! Yup! Well, I can honestly look back and say: I was wrong! Today I understand a little better his POV. But! First you must work on Cracking The Code! In the end you appreciate his words or dont! Such is life!

One of my old Sifu's words come to mind:

Those who know dont speak! Those who speak dont know!

Anything in life worth having will never come easy.

Just my opinion!

Regards,

canglong

03-04-2005, 09:49 AM

originally posted by hendrik
What if What if the information I want to pass to you is not the information I post for you to read but the information you will find out for yourself? In addition to what was corretly stated earlier, you contradict yourself too much for anyone to coherently follow your message so the point is a mute one
originally posted by anerlich
Meditate on that, grasshopper, perhaps while manipulating your EEG LMAO
originally posted by KPM
Sorry. I was ready to let it drop. But obviously Hendrik either missed or totally ignored my point. Oh well! "Welcome to the party pal"

Hendrik

03-04-2005, 10:06 AM

In addition to what was corretly stated earlier, you contradict yourself too much for anyone to coherently follow your message so the point is a mute one LMAO "Welcome to the party pal"

keep repeating:

Santa is coming to town. Santa is buying me a toy car. Santa is giving me this ultimate WCK top secret set to make me having a greatest Kung Fu.

and then go watching

http://movies.yahoo.com/shop?d=hv&id=1808617679&cf=trailer&intl=us
and then sing

"What A Wonderful World" while in the way home.

Don't know much about history
don't know much biology
Don't know much about a science book
don't know much about the French I took
But I do know that I love you
and I know that if you love me, too
what a wonderful world this would be

Don't know much about geography
don't know much trigonometry
Don't know much about algebra
don't know what a slide rule is for
But I did know that one and one is two
and if this one could be with you
what a wonderful world this would be...

WOW. life is so straight and so great! and WCK is soooo simple. one just need to be ZAP and empower and one becomes the top WCK person of the World.

OSU!
Zen is to know between black and white there are a spectrum of rainbow colors.
Zen is MAs Oyama saying " A have fear....." in the movie figther in the Wind and believe Mas Oyama has fear too.

canglong

03-04-2005, 10:31 AM

Hendrik ,
I guess what you fail to realize is by now we all not only know the song we know the dance too.

Hendrik

03-04-2005, 10:47 AM

Hendrik ,
I guess what you fail to realize is by now we all not only know the song we know the dance too.

is your guess the Truth of universe? hahaha

or

you have been admired the Kung Fu Hustle movie so much that you love to sing and dance like the cool AXE gang in the movie which is a mix of Matix and Man in Black?

anerlich

03-06-2005, 02:01 PM

I prefer being pointed in the right direction and doing my homework.

The word "right" is the operative one here. I'd prefer not to see the gullible sent out on wild goose chases, not speaking of anyone personally of course :p :p .

One of my old Sifu's words come to mind:

Those who know dont speak! Those who speak dont know!

He spoke those words, so ... does he know or doesn't he? Or is this some sort of bargain basement koan? Why do those who know not speak? Is there a conspiracy or something?

This sort of patronising quasimystical claptrap is of no value to anyone. Certainly not to anyone really trying to learn, or really trying to teach.

Jim Roselando

03-07-2005, 06:35 AM

Anerlich,

The word "right" is the operative one here. I'd prefer not to see the gullible sent out on wild goose chases, not speaking of anyone personally of course .

Right for some is not right for others. WCK for some is not WCK for others. Fortunately, its a free world and one can make their own decisions as to what they choose to embrace or not. And we are lucky that all the stuff we do was already defined a long time ago so its not any sort of Goose Chase just Kung Fu. JR

He spoke those words, so ... does he know or doesn't he?

Hahahaha! Its a very common phrase in the Kung Fu community. I would be surprised if many have not heard that before who have been involved in Kung Fu or martial art long enough. JR

Or is this some sort of bargain basement koan?

hahahaha Too Funny! You know there are lots of those phrases floating around. Here is another one:

The bigger the sign on the Kwoon, the lesser the Kung Fu!

All common stuff. Certainly there are exceptions to the general phrases but they are what they are. Just common labels. JR

Why do those who know not speak? Is there a conspiracy or something?

Just common stuff phrases. Within the Chinese community one would certainly see that it holds water tho! You can agree or not. Thats fine! Free world! JR

This sort of patronising quasimystical claptrap is of no value to anyone. Certainly not to anyone really trying to learn, or really trying to teach.

Could be or could not be. Search and figure it out for yourself if it is or not. Or! You can just consider it BS babble and ignore it! Either way is fine! Lots of people really try to learn and lots of people teach but just because someone is honest about their learning/teaching it does not mean its what they say it is. Thats another issue! How would Mc Donalds maintain the same quality control as Le Cirque or Spago?

Agree or disagree! Both are fine!

Have a good one!

anerlich

03-07-2005, 03:10 PM

Its a very common phrase in the Kung Fu community ... You know there are lots of those phrases floating around.

So what? Appeal to popularity. The ubiquity of such phrases arguably illustrates a lack of original thought, not profundity.

Lots of people really try to learn and lots of people teach but just because someone is honest about their learning/teaching it does not mean its what they say it is. Thats another issue!

Whereas a slick sound bite about signs should always be taken with the utmost gravity. :p

How would Mc Donalds maintain the same quality control as Le Cirque or Spago?

Never heard of the last two. I guess they're maintaining quality control by keeping a very low profile.

Agree or disagree! Both are fine!

Thanks! I'll take option B! And use lots of exclamation marks! The more the better, just like those sayings!

Jim Roselando

03-08-2005, 06:53 AM

Anerlich,

So what? Appeal to popularity.

Nothing about appealing to popularity. Actually! Popularity would indeed go to the opposite wouldn't you say? JR

The ubiquity of such phrases arguably illustrates a lack of original thought, not profundity.

Is that what it does? Or does it actually hold some water and because of that, those who do not agree think use of it lacks original thought? Either way! Thats fine! JR

Whereas a slick sound bite about signs should always be taken with the utmost gravity.

Nope! With a grain of salt like anything or any info.! Its up to the people who read it to decide if it a valid statement or not IMHO. JR

Never heard of the last two. I guess they're maintaining quality control by keeping a very low profile.

Its not about low profile but realistic quality control IMO. Certainly a school with 30 people in the class is not as easy to manage/watch over as a class with 10 people. Just my opinion! JR

Thanks! I'll take option B!

Sounds fine. Free world and nobody is trying to twist your arm to believe anything. JR

And use lots of exclamation marks! The more the better, just like those sayings!

Cool. Thanks for the chat. Or should I say; Chat!!!!!!!!

hehehehahaha ;)

Gotta run!

t_niehoff

03-08-2005, 08:07 AM

Two points:

#1

Jim Roselando wrote: I prefer being pointed in the right direction and doing my homework.

Andrew Nerlich wrote: The word "right" is the operative one here. I'd prefer not to see the gullible sent out on wild goose chases, not speaking of anyone personally of course.

**How do we *know* what is the "right direction" or whether we are the one that is being "gullible"? It seems to me that the only way to tell is by results produced (our increased fighting performance).

#2

Jim Roselando wrote:

One of my old Sifu's words come to mind:

Those who know dont speak! Those who speak dont know!

**There was a "tradition" of secrecy in the martial arts (in every culture). Some still abide by that tradition today. Some even put out false information to mislead . IMO, the reason behind that tradition was simple: lack of real skill. When you have two folks fight that aren't very skilled, one can often get away with some "trick". "Tricks" rarely, if ever, work against the highly skilled. So in the "old days", lineages kept these "tricks" secret -- secret techniques, secret training methods, secret tactics, etc. However, when one has skill, a high-level of personal performance, there is no need for tricks or secrets, and in fact those things just get in the way of actually developing real skill. There are no secrets in boxing or muay thai or BJJ. It's "all" out in the open because they realize it is about performance. Whenever a person, art, lineage, etc. relies on secrecy, he/it reveals him/itself to be second-rate. Rickson, for example, isn't hiding anything or keeping any secrets; it isn't "knowledge" that makes him so good or some training secrets. He'll tell you everything. And he'll still beat you. Because it comes down to talent, how hard you train, experience, etc.

PaulH

03-08-2005, 08:37 AM

In the context of Lao Tzu's writing, I think the phrase " ...know won't speak... speak don't know" indicates that the tao cannot be understood fully by means of words. If it is so, I'm sure Anerlich and Terrence would be the immortal Taoists by now. =)

Vajramusti

03-08-2005, 09:38 AM

Terence sez:
However, when one has skill, a high-level of personal performance, there is no need for tricks or secrets, and in fact those things just get in the way of actually developing real skill. There are no secrets in boxing or muay thai or BJJ. It's "all" out in the open
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

((Not quite true. There are times when boxing trainers close their camps for some top fights. Top flight college and NFL teams including the Patriots close some training sessions. The atomic bomb was developed in secret. Like many things all depends on who what when where... one pronouncement does not an umbrella make)). Joy
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Paul sez:
In the context of Lao Tzu's writing, I think the phrase " ...know won't speak... speak don't know" indicates that the tao cannot be understood fully by means of words.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
((True- that is one of the great difficulties in communication when meanings are assigned in quite different ways. What is profound in one context can sound trivial in another)) Joy

t_niehoff

03-08-2005, 09:57 AM

Joy wrote:

Not quite true. There are times when boxing trainers close their camps for some top fights.

**There is a distinction between one's regular, everyday training and preparing for a specific fight with a specific opponent. Each opponent will provide problems unique to that opponent, and those boxers are preparing their "solution" to those particular problems -- and they don't want their opponent to know in advance how they are planning to solve those problems.

Top flight college and NFL teams including the Patriots close some training sessions.

**Same thing. But in each case, there are no "secrets" to becoming a good boxer or good football player.

The atomic bomb was developed in secret.

**Not the same thing at all, and not even relevant to the discussion.

Like many things all depends on who what when where... one pronouncement does not an umbrella make

**No "pronouncement", just stating the obvious -- we can look at any competitive physical activity (as you did with your boxing, football references) and see the same "rules" apply. It's actually the absence of secrecy (i.e., openness) that permits and promotes growth and development.

Jim Roselando

03-08-2005, 12:54 PM

Terence wrote:

#1

**How do we *know* what is the "right direction" or whether we are the one that is being "gullible"? It seems to me that the only way to tell is by results produced (our increased fighting performance).

Hey! What do you know! We agree on something! Now! If only more people would test stuff out before they talk about its validity! That would make for more interesting conversation!

#2

**There was a "tradition" of secrecy in the martial arts (in every culture). Some still abide by that tradition today.

Agreed.

Some even put out false information to mislead .

Sad but true. Very common in the martial art world.

IMO, the reason behind that tradition was simple: lack of real skill.

Well, thats your opinion and while it may hold some water with the false info. crowd that typically do it for $$$$$$$$$ it is not the case with the other group. For the most part!

When you have two folks fight that aren't very skilled, one can often get away with some "trick". "Tricks" rarely, if ever, work against the highly skilled. So in the "old days", lineages kept these "tricks" secret -- secret techniques, secret training methods, secret tactics, etc. However, when one has skill, a high-level of personal performance, there is no need for tricks or secrets, and in fact those things just get in the way of actually developing real skill.

Terence Terence Terence. I really hope you do not pass this info. on to many people as the truth as its kind a Wrong IMO. Here we go! With regards to stuff being held back or kept from certain people its really simple. I will give you the most popular reason and I know for sure its fact and not your beliefs!

Most of the people who reserve stuff for some and not for others are doing it because they prefer to share their art with people they fully trust and or believe will do good things with the info. these people hold so close to their heart! Always a trial period comes with the learning under these groups. They do not just sell their art to any Joe Smoe who walks thru the door. For them its something special and its something they prefer to pass on and not prostitute. Most would not sell you their knowledge for all the Tea in China. But! You may not agree with this so I will use YOU as my example:

Terence trains two versions of Yip's WCK for 20+ years with a few of the more wide spread YM lineages. Terence then visits Robert Chu. Terence is then introduced to some training and body mechanics that he obviously was never taught. Terence then trains the new info. and becomes a better practitioner. But! How could this be! Isn't WCK WCK! Isn't everything everything? Or! Was Terence just introduced to some stuff that maybe his previous guys were not privy to! Remember! Its only a secret if you dont know it and typically its not technique and any BS like that. Its usually training that brings out the attributes of the Kung Fu.

There are no secrets in boxing or muay thai or BJJ. It's "all" out in the open because they realize it is about performance. Whenever a person, art, lineage, etc. relies on secrecy, he/it reveals him/itself to be second-rate. Rickson, for example, isn't hiding anything or keeping any secrets; it isn't "knowledge" that makes him so good or some training secrets. He'll tell you everything. And he'll still beat you. Because it comes down to talent, how hard you train, experience, etc.

Oh boy oh boy! Here we go again!

No secrets in BJJ huh? Once again! Do you pass on this info. to people as facts or do you say; I TN believe this to be the case but really am not sure!

Lets set the record straight:

Your beloved BJJ:

1) Years ago Renzo and Craig Kukuk come out with on of the very first BJJ tape series. Its held in high regard and lots and lots of people purchase it. Now, according to Renzo's own family who lives in Beantown (yup) the tapes were made 90% correct but within most of the movements Renzo left out a detail here and there! Why? Because he did not want people to buy the tapes and use his stuff against him so he left an escape hole just in case for easy counter! Believe it or not!

2) Years ago Rorion and Royce come out with a basic tape series and lots of people purchase it. Guess what! They did the exact same thing! Yup! Believe it or not!

3) Allan Goes comes from Brazil to the USA to teach BJJ and compete in UFC. Allan Goes and my former instructor chit chat. Allan tells Joao: Dont teach the GRINGO's to good otherwise they can use our stuff against us! Believe it or not!

4) Fernando Macashera comes from Brazil to Beantown. During a private lesson Ferando teaches this guy a certain escape from the guard. After he then tells me this: Jim, keep that for yourself. Dont show it to the other guys until I get to know them better and see if they are nice people. Believe it or not!

Should I keep going? All of these guys are real fighters and compete regularly. Fernando now teaches the miltary in Saudi! Your using of Rickson as the example is like comparing Ali to the average boxer or Jordan to the average B Ball player. Sure! They are special and a cut above! Funny tho but when you mention the cut above people from our Kung Fu you think nothing of it but love to use others who are special in a special regard. You cannot drive on both sides of the street!

All arts have this sort of stuff and some are more open and some are more private. Yip Man's school had 1000's of people but where did the quality guys come from? Guys like Leung Sheung, Lok Yiu, WSL, Ho Kam Ming were all trained one on one with the man or early pupils. So, being open does not mean it will produce good people. Its the individual and the quality of the training and even then we have to take into account that there will always be tough people but they may not be doing the art but rather are just tough!

Just my opinion based on known info. and not my desired beliefs!

Back to work and lurk mode!

Regards,

t_niehoff

03-08-2005, 01:57 PM

JR wrote:

Well, thats your opinion and while it may hold some water with the false info. crowd that typically do it for $$$$$$$$$ it is not the case with the other group. For the most part!

**Sure, that's what they all say. ;)

Most of the people who reserve stuff for some and not for others are doing it because they prefer to share their art with people they fully trust and or believe will do good things with the info. these people hold so close to their heart! Always a trial period comes with the learning under these groups. They do not just sell their art to any Joe Smoe who walks thru the door. For them its something special and its something they prefer to pass on and not prostitute. Most would not sell you their knowledge for all the Tea in China.

**This is the old "is he worthy of the secret?" argument. What they really are testing is whether or not you'll play their game.

But! You may not agree with this so I will use YOU as my example:

Terence trains two versions of Yip's WCK for 20+ years with a few of the more wide spread YM lineages. Terence then visits Robert Chu. Terence is then introduced to some training and body mechanics that he obviously was never taught. Terence then trains the new info. and becomes a better practitioner. But! How could this be! Isn't WCK WCK! Isn't everything everything? Or! Was Terence just introduced to some stuff that maybe his previous guys were not privy to! Remember! Its only a secret if you dont know it and typically its not technique and any BS like that. Its usually training that brings out the attributes of the Kung Fu.

**Do you want to really know what Robert "showed" me, the real lesson? Not any special or unqiue "info" but that my listening to others tell me how to do WCK is what impeded my growth. No "secrets". In fact, it's all right there in the forms; everyone has the info (the tools). This is why I say WCK is WCK. When I began to 'let application be my sifu', my blinders came off, and my skill grew -- and I continue to get better every day. It was sort of like my trying to become a good swimmer not by getting in the pool but "dryland swimming" and following the advice of a bunch of folks that can't swim (but claim to have the secrets to swimming.). Robert simply got me in the water. Everyone that gets in the water is going to find out pretty much the same things. All the "info" or body mechanics or whatever that Robert showed me wasn't to get me to "follow" those things or do them a certain way, but to get me to 'let application be my sifu' (to just swim) and go from there.

There are no secrets in boxing or muay thai or BJJ. It's "all" out in the open because they realize it is about performance. Whenever a person, art, lineage, etc. relies on secrecy, he/it reveals him/itself to be second-rate. Rickson, for example, isn't hiding anything or keeping any secrets; it isn't "knowledge" that makes him so good or some training secrets. He'll tell you everything. And he'll still beat you. Because it comes down to talent, how hard you train, experience, etc.

Oh boy oh boy! Here we go again!

No secrets in BJJ huh? Once again! Do you pass on this info. to people as facts or do you say; I TN believe this to be the case but really am not sure!

Lets set the record straight:

[examples from BJJ]

Should I keep going?

**I don't know about your "examples." Everyone I've met in BJJ is open and above-board. There aren't "secrets" because everyone is competing -- how can you "hide" your game when you are using it all the time? There's no point in teaching "flaws", they will be found out when you roll. Fighting exposes the BS. BJJ fight. And by fighting you find the details yourself if they are not pointed out to you. This is why there are no secrets in wrestling or BJJ or MT -- because if you're doing it, you can't hide it. When you're not doing it, not fighitng, then it's all secret. You have that "kung fu perspective", Jim.

All of these guys are real fighters and compete regularly. Fernando now teaches the miltary in Saudi! Your using of Rickson as the example is like comparing Ali to the average boxer or Jordan to the average B Ball player. Sure! They are special and a cut above! Funny tho but when you mention the cut above people from our Kung Fu you think nothing of it but love to use others who are special in a special regard. You cannot drive on both sides of the street!

**I don't use "people from Kung Fu" simply because there are no great fighters in "Kung Fu." WCK or any martial art is like basketball -- there are no secrets. If you get out on the court and play the game, no one can hide anything from you. It's all right there in the open. What makes a basketball player good isn't "secrets'; it's getting out on the court and playing a lot.

All arts have this sort of stuff and some are more open and some are more private. Yip Man's school had 1000's of people but where did the quality guys come from? Guys like Leung Sheung, Lok Yiu, WSL, Ho Kam Ming were all trained one on one with the man or early pupils.

**These are your ideas of "quality." Certainly WSL had some fighting skills. Being taught one-on-one doesn't mean one develops those skills. Basketball players can be taught one-on-one also. That's not what gives them skill. Their instructor isn't what gives them skill.

So, being open does not mean it will produce good people. Its the individual and the quality of the training and even then we have to take into account that there will always be tough people but they may not be doing the art but rather are just tough!

**Being open, which includes actually "mixing it up", is a necessity to developing good skill -- that openness is like "peer review".

anerlich

03-08-2005, 02:57 PM

If it is so, I'm sure Anerlich and Terrence would be the immortal Taoists by now. =)

No. But neither is Hendrik.

Jim promotes yet another fallacy, this time an appeal to authority or popularity. Because Renzo, Rorion, et al decide to play the secrecy game doesn't in any way legitimize the similar actions of prominent TMA'ers.

People are entitled to keep secrets. However, hinting at secrets never shared (and which probably don't exist) to promote some sort of notoriety or mystical allure, or for material gain, is intellectually and morally dishonest. If you've been sworn to secrecy about something, YOU SHOULDN"T BE DROPPING HINTS ABOUT IT ON AN INTERNET FORUM!

Secrets are a reoad to nowhere in MA today anyway. Techniques are best tested and developed by putting them out there and letting people try to counter them. Those you can still make work when people know about them are the ones to keep.

Renzo, Royce, Rorion et al have all been beaten, secrets or no.

Rickson usually wins his bouts with solid application of the basics, not secrets.

Creativity, diigence and an open mind are what will save you, not what some secretive master will only divulge to you after 35 years of training. Most of the TWC "secrets I've been privy to are not techniques, but training methods, all of which have close parallels in modern sport science and training, that any intelligent thinker prepared to think laterally would probably discover for themselves eventually.

FWIW:

http://www.wingchunkuen.com/why/columns/nerlich/mirror05_secrets.html

Jim Roselando

03-08-2005, 03:07 PM

T,

**This is the old "is he worthy of the secret?" argument. What they really are testing is whether or not you'll play their game.

Sorry Terence but you are wrong on this one. IMHO

**Do you want to really know what Robert "showed" me, the real lesson? Not any special or unqiue "info" but that my listening to others tell me how to do WCK is what impeded my growth. No "secrets". In fact, it's all right there in the forms; everyone has the info (the tools). This is why I say WCK is WCK. When I began to 'let application be my sifu', my blinders came off, and my skill grew -- and I continue to get better every day. It was sort of like my trying to become a good swimmer not by getting in the pool but "dryland swimming" and following the advice of a bunch of folks that can't swim (but claim to have the secrets to swimming.). Robert simply got me in the water. Everyone that gets in the water is going to find out pretty much the same things. All the "info" or body mechanics or whatever that Robert showed me wasn't to get me to "follow" those things or do them a certain way, but to get me to 'let application be my sifu' (to just swim) and go from there.

Oh! So you trained WCK for 20 plus years and never went for a swim? Ok! I can understand how he helped you then! Yet! Its kind of strange to me as you did Leung Ting and Willeum Cheung stuff all those years and both of those groups never seem to be shy from mixing it up! Just out of curiosity tho! Were you able to pass Robert's strucutre tests when you met him for the first time?

**I don't know about your "examples."

Thats ok! I figured that much!

Everyone I've met in BJJ is open and above-board. There aren't "secrets" because everyone is competing -- how can you "hide" your game when you are using it all the time? There's no point in teaching "flaws", they will be found out when you roll. Fighting exposes the BS. BJJ fight. And by fighting you find the details yourself if they are not pointed out to you. This is why there are no secrets in wrestling or BJJ or MT -- because if you're doing it, you can't hide it. When you're not doing it, not fighitng, then it's all secret. You have that "kung fu perspective", Jim.

During exchange ones Skill comes out. If one has flaws it shows. We agree!

**I don't use "people from Kung Fu" simply because there are no great fighters in "Kung Fu." WCK or any martial art is like basketball -- there are no secrets. If you get out on the court and play the game, no one can hide anything from you. It's all right there in the open. What makes a basketball player good isn't "secrets'; it's getting out on the court and playing a lot.

Thats funny because some of the best and most experienced fighters I have met are from Kung Fu. There are good and bad in all places!

**These are your ideas of "quality." Certainly WSL had some fighting skills. Being taught one-on-one doesn't mean one develops those skills. Basketball players can be taught one-on-one also. That's not what gives them skill. Their instructor isn't what gives them skill.

I never said being taught one on one automatically means quality! I said now and always say its the Individual and with any good individual the quality of his training is indeed important.

**Being open, which includes actually "mixing it up", is a necessity to developing good skill -- that openness is like "peer review".

We agree!

Gotta run!

Thanks for the chat!

Jim Roselando

03-08-2005, 03:42 PM

Anerlich,

I am trying to appeal to nobody.

I just am relaying some Facts!

Popularity goes towards the opposite groups or not so private groups, especially since they are the majority! So, if I want to be popular then I would be stating the exact opposite!

Like it, dont like it! Either way is fine!

With regards to dropping hints about secrets I can say thats funny. I share opennly with my friends the little bit I know about my art.

Certainly one can indeed see that there are NO other Leung Jan/Koo Lo lineage on any forum sharing anything about their art so I am the odd ball from this lineage who is willing to discuss our art. Unless someone can name some others who have shared as much about Leung Jan's Pin Sun art?

I call that being open when the rest of the family is not!

Regards,

anerlich

03-08-2005, 04:22 PM

I am trying to appeal to nobody.

I just am relaying some Facts!

Popularity goes towards the opposite groups or not so private groups, especially since they are the majority! So, if I want to be popular then I would be stating the exact opposite!

I was not referring to your motivation, rather that your mentioning the Gracies in an apparent attempt to legitimize the concealment practices of TCMA'ers, alone the lines of: "well your heroes the Gracies do it, so it must be OK for TCMAers to do it too".

This is a fallacious argument, called in the literature either an "Appeal to authority" (These authority figures or celebrities do this so it must be right) or "Appeal to Popularity" (A lot of people do it so it must be right).

http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/index.html#index

Like it, dont like it! Either way is fine!

Like or don't like what? Truth be told, I don't actually care all that much, I just like arguing, especially with the pompous and grandiose (not you).

With regards to dropping hints about secrets I can say thats funny.

I was not referring to you, but to others.

I share opennly with my friends the little bit I know about my art.

Sensible man. Without sharing, the arts will whither and die or become caricatures of themselves.

t_niehoff

03-08-2005, 04:40 PM

JR wrote:

Oh! So you trained WCK for 20 plus years and never went for a swim?

**Not *really* -- just like you. ;) I suspect from your posts that you still haven't.

Ok! I can understand how he helped you then! Yet! Its kind of strange to me as you did Leung Ting and Willeum Cheung stuff all those years and both of those groups never seem to be shy from mixing it up!

**There's mixing it up and there's "mixing it up." Lots of people in WCK 'spar' and 'touch hands' and I did those things too. And then there's facing real pressure, real intensity, real resistance.

Just out of curiosity tho! Were you able to pass Robert's strucutre tests when you met him for the first time?

**Nope.

Thats funny because some of the best and most experienced fighters I have met are from Kung Fu. There are good and bad in all places!

**Funny how none of them step up and fight in UFC, Pride, Cage, etc. I have a feeling that your "best and most experienced" are clowns.

Jim Roselando

03-09-2005, 02:13 AM

Anerlich,

I was not referring to your motivation, rather that your mentioning the Gracies in an apparent attempt to legitimize the concealment practices of TCMA'ers, alone the lines of: "well your heroes the Gracies do it, so it must be OK for TCMAers to do it too".

This is a fallacious argument, called in the literature either an "Appeal to authority" (These authority figures or celebrities do this so it must be right) or "Appeal to Popularity" (A lot of people do it so it must be right).

Ok! I understand your point but keep in mind I am not saying its the right thing to do but rather very very common. JR

Terence,

**Not *really* -- just like you. I suspect from your posts that you still haven't.

How about this as an Idea! Why dont we have all the people us KFO chat lovers have gone for a swim with (recently) write up their credentials and post their views about what it was like swimming with us! Then, we can all have a good place to judge some of our swimming ability. Otherwise, we are all nothing more than keyboard warriors talking and talking.

**There's mixing it up and there's "mixing it up." Lots of people in WCK 'spar' and 'touch hands' and I did those things too. And then there's facing real pressure, real intensity, real resistance.

True! No argument here!

Just out of curiosity tho! Were you able to pass Robert's strucutre tests when you met him for the first time?

**Nope.

Ok! What about your foot weighting and transfering that you recently discussed with the k1 to heel? Did you do that before you met Robert? How about the Waist pressing? Did you do that before you met Robert?

All of these things (not sure if the rest fall into the structure test category) are things that he explained to you how to do that you never did before and all of these things helped you WCK improve. So, the info you had no knowledge about helped you greatly! Or was it just his telling you to go swim?

**Funny how none of them step up and fight in UFC, Pride, Cage, etc. I have a feeling that your "best and most experienced" are clowns.

Terence you are funny sometimes. Actually, you remind me of someone who was beat up and now has something to prove to the world. Not the same Terence from years ago. Plus, your occassional rude side is coming out with the clown comment but numerous times you asked: Oh yeah! Where are these people! How come nobody knows them blah blah blah! Then! I give you a list of names and where to find them but you seem to think because they are not fighting MMA they are not fighters. BTW: When are you going to fighting in a MMA event?

I have watched Sifu Roger Hagood video tapes of his bare hand chellenge fights. Hagood sifu is a Jook Lum Kuen man and a very very traditional Kung Fu fighter. He believes firmly in using his art for real as many do. Anyone who wishes to test him out is always welcome at his door and he video tapes every fight. About 75 or so I believe. No gloves! Use what ever your feel like stuff. How many bare knuckle fist fights have you been in with martial art versus martial art? Please dont repeat: Oh yeah! But who were they and how good were they line. It can be anyone at this moment just tell us how many real fights have you been in with real fighters and not controlled enviornment gloved up hard sessions?

Now! This brings up a new topic I will start! Thanks for the idea!

Gotta run!

Kevin Bell

03-09-2005, 02:23 AM

Anerlich,

I was not referring to your motivation, rather that your mentioning the Gracies in an apparent attempt to legitimize the concealment practices of TCMA'ers, alone the lines of: "well your heroes the Gracies do it, so it must be OK for TCMAers to do it too".

This is a fallacious argument, called in the literature either an "Appeal to authority" (These authority figures or celebrities do this so it must be right) or "Appeal to Popularity" (A lot of people do it so it must be right).

Ok! I understand your point but keep in mind I am not saying its the right thing to do but rather very very common. JR

Terence,

**Not *really* -- just like you. I suspect from your posts that you still haven't.

How about this as an Idea! Why dont we have all the people us KFO chat lovers have gone for a swim with (recently) write up their credentials and post their views about what it was like swimming with us! Then, we can all have a good place to judge some of our swimming ability. Otherwise, we are all nothing more than keyboard warriors talking and talking. I tried the video thing to get people to not be shy about sharing their expression of WCK or even a peek but that didn't work to well. I know I know! Videos show nothing. hehehe

**There's mixing it up and there's "mixing it up." Lots of people in WCK 'spar' and 'touch hands' and I did those things too. And then there's facing real pressure, real intensity, real resistance.

True!

Just out of curiosity tho! Were you able to pass Robert's strucutre tests when you met him for the first time?

**Nope.

Ok! What about your foot weighting and transfering that you recently discussed with the k1 to heel? Did you do that before you met Robert? How about the Waist pressing? Did you do that before you met Robert?

All of these things (not sure if the rest fall into the structure test category) are thing that he explained to you how to do that you never did before and all of these things helped you WCK improve. So, the info you had no knowledge about helped you greatly! Or was it just his telling you to go swim?

**Funny how none of them step up and fight in UFC, Pride, Cage, etc. I have a feeling that your "best and most experienced" are clowns.

Terence you are funny sometimes. Actually, you remind me of someone who was beat up and now has something to prove to the world. Not the same Terence from years ago. Plus, your rude side coming out with the clown comment but numerous times you asked: Oh yeah! Where are these people! How come nobody knows them blah blah blah! Then! I give you a list of names and where to find them but you seem to think because they are not fighting MMA they are not fighters. BTW: When are you going to fighting in a MMA event?

I have watched Sifu Roger Hagood video tapes of his bare hand chellenge fights. Hagood sifu is a Jook Lum Kuen man and a very very traditional Kung Fu fighter. He believes firmly in using his art for real as many do. Anyone who wishes to test him out is always welcome at his door and he video tapes every fight. About 75 or so I believe. No gloves! Use what ever your feel like stuff. How many bare knuckle fist fights have you been in with martial art versus martial art? Please dont repeat: Oh yeah! But who were they and how good were they line. It can be anyone at this moment just tell us how many real fights have you been in with real fighters and not controlled enviornment gloved up hard sessions?

Now! This brings up a new topic I will start! Thanks for the idea!

Gotta run!

Is this a battle of intellect? Just meet up and scrap it'll be over quicker than it takes for you guys to write your next posts :D :D :D

Jim Roselando

03-09-2005, 02:36 AM

Hey Kevin!

T & I disagree on a lot of stuff but then there is the occassion we agree on some stuff. I actually think we need more people like him with the realism theme but then there are things we can just battle over for ever! Its part of the Chat rooom fun!

I respect his position but we are in a Discussion Forum and thats where people come to share or battle their beliefs. Lately its been more battle and yes we poke each other but its all fun! hahaha Keep in mind I agree with him about getting out of the kwoon and using your stuff agianst others who are trying to use their stuff against you. There are lots of people that think like T and there is nothing wrong with that but there are lots of people that think differently and thats where the debate begins!

Join in!

Regards,

Kevin Bell

03-09-2005, 03:29 AM

Hey Jim,

Actually i like Terences post's quite a lot agree with his position most (not all) of the time, hence why no need to add my ten cents worth.

The thing is Terence IMO (whether he'll agree or not) tries to "scare" people for want of a better word into addressing their training and get people training harder and with honesty. From my point of view this can only be a good thing, though i have to admit the "dry land swimmer" phrase wear's a little thin after a while :) :) (i prefer the term armchair general - leading from the back)

You're right it is a public forum my last post is just to inject a little fun and mischief into the equation :D :D Keep going this is interesting reading

Cheers for now chaps
Laterzzz

Kev

Jim Roselando

03-09-2005, 05:20 AM

Hey Kevin!

Hey Jim,

Actually i like Terences post's quite a lot agree with his position most (not all) of the time, hence why no need to add my ten cents worth. The thing is Terence IMO (whether he'll agree or not) tries to "scare" people for want of a better word into addressing their training and get people training harder and with honesty. From my point of view this can only be a good thing,

I agree with you and I agree with him about the importance of hard training and mixing it up with those who want to do damage to you. There is no other way to know if your stuff is any good unless you test it out.

though i have to admit the "dry land swimmer" phrase wear's a little thin after a while (i prefer the term armchair general - leading from the back)

This whole thing is now become real boring and IMHO has killed a once decent place for discussion/sharing. If someone or anyone jumps in any conversation that is going on about any topic related to WC and just repeats the same Mantra then its eventually loses its value. There are different ways to discuss all sort of things. If I want to talk about the Sun Punch I can say this is the mechanics behind it etc etc and then I can say that during exchange I find it is used like this for me etc.. This way you get the technical and the practical side of it but if every topic that discusses the technical side gets high-jacked and then never expanded on just denouced or thrown in to the Use it and you will know theme then all conversations end up nowhere. There has to be balance! The funny thing to me is that Terence knows a lot of stuff about the way he practices WCK but in recent times contributes nothing other than the promoting of fighting. I believe last week he actually posted something of value for all with regards to the K1 and sinking to heel etc.. This was good inf that others can test out or debate etc.. Balance is the key to discussion and growth.

You're right it is a public forum my last post is just to inject a little fun and mischief into the equation

hehehehahaha Thats cool!

Keep going this is interesting reading

Nah! I think this thread has run its course.

Cheers for now chaps

See ya!