Attn Ford

[Ray Pina]

Did I insult you or slight you somehow?

Because from my end, all I did was politely seek to see if I could get a fight from someone living in a house of MMA -- that's all. That's the fact of the matter.

Sorry, but where I live I have asked, and have fought someone who I thought was a good Thai Boxer, someone who boxes and kick boxes and does old school karate and hung gar and Southern Mantis and more Wing Chun than I can count.

Guess what? Not one of them told me I had to go join a league specific to their style first. They said, sure. We did our thing and more times than not we became friends and keep in touch and get together from time to time to test out.

I am not a MMA. I'm not sure what route I'm going to take. Maybe I'll join a MMA league. Maybe, when I'm ready, I'll go challenge high-profile schools/fighters and film it and use that to get into the UFC. Maybe it's not the UFC. Maybe I'll just challenge cats and film it.

Getting back to that house, the facts remian, I asked, and was given a bunch of excuses on why I shouldn't, couldn't fight them. But don't say wouldn't! And as far as these guys being (national) champs .... from what league? I just watched two of them fight in a cage for 10 minutes and I don't think there was a black and blue between them. I saw a whole lot of nothin' ... standing and on the ground. By what standarrd do you call these guys champs? College wrestler champ? .... a dime a dozen. I have one in my personal class. How many colleges are there? Two schools get together and compete and there's a champ already.

As far as me, I'm quite ready to satisfy your strange interest in me. If you don't live nearby, please, have a MMA friend buzz me who is willing to gamble his neck for you. I only ask that we don't wear gloves and that we respect a tap. That's it.

Other than that, I have NEVER instigated agression to anyone here. As for fighting in an event, I'll do it when I feel I can represent the style that I love properly. That's my business. Personal matters, whether instigated from abroad or from within my house, can be dealt with anytime.

Ray Pina

[truewrestler]

Ray "Ignant Moran" Pina.... now that is a sweet ring name

[Ford Prefect]

Agreed.

Ray, take it to PM. I'd rather not pollute the forum with your BS.

[red5angel]

"Ray "Ignant Moran" Pina.... now that is a sweet ring name"


Ironic considering the source...... :rolleyes:

[Ray Pina]

That's interesting. Because all I did was post a question in another thread and it got quickly filled up BS about me.

I don't have anything other to say than what I just did. I'm just trying to do my thing as a martial artist, trying to take advantage of any opportunities that should present themselves.

I highly respect those MMA because they are living their Tao in my eyes, and they put their body and health on the line in pursuit of that Tao. For that, you have no idea how much I respect them. But, and I know people call it talking smack or bragging or you say something good about your teacher and no one wants to hear it or believes it, but I'm living my own Tao in my own way too. That's all.

So tell me, how do you think it feels when you're the guy who has had his ribs broken, and nose gushing and teach jarred and loosened and torn wrist ligaments not once or twice but three times .... and had to get the knee drained, etc. etc.. And then have people, who don't know me from the first guy they pass walking out the office, calling me a troll and a smack talker? How would you feel about that?

I'll tell you how I felt/feel:

At first its frustrating, to see everyone having a good go at my expense. Everyone's so quick to team up and go with the group thinking and poke fun. But then you realise I'm the onse seaking the fight, I know the fights I've won AND lost; I know what I can do and what I'm still striving to be able to do .... what these guys can or can't do, that's their business.

[truewrestler]

Ray, You want to get a fight with a top MMA fighter. Well I gave you resources to get your request out there. What more do you need? Many people suggested you work your way up with some MMA fights but you disagree. I don't know what more you want? ...our approval on everything you say? Someone somewhere is going to disagree with most any opinion -- that is life. Go ahead, get a fight and prove us wrong.

ps, National NCAA Div 1 Wrestling Champion *******

[Ford Prefect]

This my last public response. I don't want another thread to take off like that, so that's why I'm saying take it to PM. I will honestly answer any and every question you have if I think you are serious. I understand a PM doesn't get you public attention though...

[Ray Pina]

Many people suggested you work your way up with some MMA fights

You must have misunderstood what I wrote. I'm not competing out right now until I feel I can represent my master's previously unseen style in its proper light. I made a big mistake fighting out early last time .... that was not E-Chuan; that was street brawling.

My other major point is this: I have asked to play with all types of martial artists in the past .... none of them told me to go join a league specific to their style first. They just said, "come on."

All I did was ask a house of MMA if anyone wanted to play. They said no. What anyone here says doesn't bother me. The only thing that does bother me are the personal attacks ... about specific people calling me a troll but then I say "come on" and where is everybody? .... they just keep typing away.

...

Private Message is quite friendly already to me. I didn't start making personal statements over the public, international Internet forum. All I'm asking now is, IF someone wants to make those statements about me, please come and see for yourself. Otherwise, who's trolling?

[rogue]

I'm not competing out right now until I feel I can represent my master's previously unseen style in its proper light. I made a big mistake fighting out early last time .... that was not E-Chuan; that was street brawling. Ray, what makes e-chuan unique and what other art does it look like?

[Ford Prefect]

Alright. I lied. I'll answer. :)

My other major point is this: I have asked to play with all types of martial artists in the past .... none of them told me to go join a league specific to their style first. They just said, "come on."

Were these guys highly ranked professional fighters that you had no previous interactions with? If so, what were their names? They'd be easy to track down being highly ranked pro's... More likely they were just average folks that did "style x" or "sport x" if your story is true at all. Either that or you already knew them.

Not only that, but how do they know you aren't some a-hole that will sue them after they mess you up? Or if you want to go to an alternate location, how do they know you aren't some psycho that will show up armed? Fighting in sanctioned bouts avoids the possibility of being sued, going to jail, getting stabbed or shot. Not only that, but there is an official record of the fight and what happenned. Anybody can say they are 50-0 in street fights and unofficial MMA matches. It means absolutely nothing. Why would they risk their professional fighting career in a fight where they could get injured (end their career), they could go to jail (seriously impact their career), they could get sued (impact their career), or they could get killed by a psycho... At best they win a fight against a no-name amateur that they should beat anyway. At worst, they lose the fight tarnishing their reputation and possibly carreer?

I can't understand how you are so unable to comprehend any of this. Anybody with a brain, including me, would only fight in official, sanctioned matches. We've all gone to different clubs and fought exhibitions, but that's entirely different than meeting up with a stranger to fight an anything goes match. Please.


The only thing that does bother me are the personal attacks ... about specific people calling me a troll

Actually I take back the troll comment. You are obviously not a troll. You are just pretty ignorant.

As seen below:

By what standarrd do you call these guys champs? College wrestler champ? .... a dime a dozen.

lol! Ignorance at its finest. Josh Koshek placed 1st in the NCAA Division 1 NATIONAL TOURNAMENT. Meaning that all the best collegiate wrestlers from all over the entire nation compete there to become National Champion . There is only 1 national champion per weight class per year. Dime a dozen? OK... Perhaps that was a fluke, right? Well, in 2 other years he finished 2nd and 3rd. That's 3 top 3 finishes in a 4-year NCAA Div 1 Wrestling career. The guy is a world class wrestler. Speaking of which, did you see how many of his takedowns were stuffed by Leben? You think you could stuff a national champion, world-class wrestler?

You also said that nobody looked good on the ground. Well Kenny Florian is a Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu Blackbelt. You can see his lineage here: http://www.bjj.org/lineage.html He's won numerous grappling tournaments and grappling superfights. He's placed in the top 3 in his division in international grappling tournaments. He gives seminars and sells instructional videos to seasoned grappling and MMA veterans about grappling. He is a world class submission grappler. No skill though... Right?

Others on the show have high school state and regional wrestling championships under their belt as well as years of training MMA and grappling.

Out of all the training, you picked out the one dude who doesn't have much ground experience to use an example. You said he looked bad on the ground. Well, bravo. You are very observant considering his teammates, the other team, and even HE said that his weakness was the ground. The guy still has KO's in sanctioned MMA fights though. How many of those do you have?

So now please tell me how you can justify your comments about proven fighters when you haven't done anything in the ring? That's what I'm saying.

All I'm asking now is, IF someone wants to make those statements about me, please come and see for yourself. Otherwise, who's trolling?

LMFAO! "If anybody wants to call me on my ignorant statements, then take time off of your job and off your life to come to New York and see for yourself in an illegal fight inwhich you could be found liable for damages to my person, possibly shot by psycho me, possibly waste your time if I was a no-show, and even have some nice fun time in Riker's Island Prison."

Whew. Pretty tempting. I'll pass. I just don't understand why somebody would talk so much crap when they lost their only sanctioned bout and readily admit that they aren't "ready" to fight sanctioned MMA matches. You don't even know when you'll be ready. Maybe a 1.5 years... maybe not... Doesn't make sense to me.

Maybe if you can explain why you'd do that under those circumstances, then I could lay off.

[Ray Pina]

There are technical differences and they are based on philosophical differences.

My master, and now I, sees most people's aproach to fighting as capital to capital ... meaning everyone's swinging out trying to take someone's head off. This is greedy and unrealistic .... as soon as the other guy is longer than you he can do Butterfly (Ali) and keep you out with the jab. My master is short and old with extra short arms so he has developed a way to fight the bigger guy.

So, we try to deal with the troop first. We want to strike the incoming blow or shield and ask for both hands and fight from there (Chi Sau and Wing Chun has this too but I don't see it when they fight.)

How we do that: we don't like straight punching. It can be cut from above by the tall guy and easily pushed aside by the shooter. Garcie loves for you to try and punch when they come in. Even if they take one, that extended arm loses its leverage and they have you.... we use a sort of short wave punching. It all comes from the same delivery but can change to hook, upper cut, overhand, backfist ... most tell you from the beginnign which is which. Short power allows you to keep it lose and at the last minute change.

Kicking: Philosophically we believe kicking is like the landing craft in Saving Private Ryan ... it's very serious. Do or die. Punching is for fighting, kicking is for kill. Don't use the pistal when it's a sniping battle. Don't use the sniper rifle when it's up close and personal.

Against the shoot: We have some very unqiue ways of dealing with this but don't want to go into too much detail. I've said it here before though, we are happy if someone wants to present their head/neck in exchange for our leg. If you are grabbing me, who's protecting your head. This of course is not saying we can't be taken down -- of course we can -- but who will have better position once down ... the guy with the leg? Or the guy with the neck? Taiji hold the ball and cloud hands when combined with Hsing-I's agressive stepping comes into play here.

We are primarily a punching, kicking, locking, throwing style (though I'm not good at the lcoking or throwing) and have recently evolved to the ground ... we've been fortunate to have a few Gracie school members visit the school to play with us, one stayed to train for about a year, also we now have a collegiate wrestler as well as a Judo player join and we know the importance of this.

To sum up E-Chuan, from my view, is a practical style that looks to win but does not want to rely on being stronger (can you fireman the 380 lbs guy? Then why train in that way, change it.), longer, or faster to do it. Size matters of course. But how to change the odds.

Also, we feel no style is complete or perfect including our own. We look to see what looks good and doesn't and most of all test it. Test it. Test it.

[Ford Prefect]

Fair enough. I'm not going to debate tactics. Waiting to say "This is what I did in MMA matches against good people" instead of saying "this is what I would do in an MMA match against a good guy" will lend a lot more credability to what you say. People are going to want see proof to claims like that.

In all honesty, I'd like to more TMA people succeeed in MMA. Only good things could come for the evolution of both arts by being widely exposed to each other.

[Ray Pina]

Edited because I saw your last post late. I'll let your post before that go as it may. And you are correct, I don't expect anyone to give me credence until I win at MMA events or beat a well known MMA on video.

Working on these things now.

Also, my master may soon have a book and video out.

[FatherDog]

I've said it here before though, we are happy if someone wants to present their head/neck in exchange for our leg. If you are grabbing me, who's protecting your head. This of course is not saying we can't be taken down -- of course we can -- but who will have better position once down ... the guy with the leg? Or the guy with the neck? Taiji hold the ball and cloud hands when combined with Hsing-I's agressive stepping comes into play here.

If I am grabbing you, my head is pressed against your leg, or against your body, depending on whether I'm shooting a double or single. In neither case do you "have the neck".



To sum up E-Chuan, from my view, is a practical style that looks to win but does not want to rely on being stronger (can you fireman the 380 lbs guy? Then why train in that way, change it.),

Yes, actually, I can and have firemaned a 380 lb guy - properly done, you don't lift someone up in a fireman's (that's called a pterodactyl and you rarely see it unless one of the people involved is a scrub) you fold underneath them and yield so that their weight falls across you. You don't need to be strong enough to lift the guy you're firemanning.

[Ray Pina]

Good post Father Dog. I also now do a Fireman that doesn't require lifting, more like tripping.

Of course I know its your job to protect your head. Its my job to utilise my technology to get it (won't go into how here for obvious reasons). When you know and I don't you win. When you know and I know it's who's better ;)

[MasterKiller]

I think the problem with the situation is that you want to fight one of these guys because you saw them on TV, but they had to earn the right to be on TV. The guy who lost in TUF 6 was 18-1. That's 19 fights just to get on the show.

It's kind of ridiculous that you think you should be given a shot just because you want it.

You need to earn the right to fight these guys.

[Ray Pina]

A lot of people think a lot of things are rediculous and before they now it they're old and accomplished nothing. To me, it doesn't hurt to ask.

And I think the situation is quality control enough already. You either have to have no idea of how hurt you can get, be crazy or be confident ... I know how hurt I can get.

Also, based on that performance, is it me, am I the only one who is a little curious as to who those 18 guys were? I mean, I was expecting some blood with all that experience and the crap they pulled on him.

[bullrog]

Want to find out?

go to Chris Leben's website (http://www.chrisleben.com)

Some are recognized fighters. Like Joe Doerkson, his only loss, that is before Kush

heres a highlight vid:
http://www.subfighter.com/vidz/highlights/fighter/Chris%20Leben%20Highlight%20Clip.wmv

I think he fought terrible. But theres probably not a lot you can when a superior wrestler is on op of you who makes no attempts for anything. Its the attempts that provide the openings, for submission or escapes.

Ray, I'm sure you're a great fighter, but I don't know what you're expecting of us. For the most part you just sound like a keyboard warrior who wants to fight everyone who doubts him. Pro fighters don'twant to fight for free because they all know they could be one fight away fromretirement. So go make a name for yourself and then maybe we'll give youthe respect that crave.

[NeuroGrrrl]

Ray "Ignant Moran" Pina.... now that is a sweet ring name

moron is spelled with two o's.

oh, the irony.

[Ford Prefect]

Neurogrrrl,

It's an inside, internet joke:

http://www.muchosucko.com/modules/My_eGallery/gallery/Signs/789603.1.jpg

;)

[NeuroGrrrl]

Can't open that link at work...blocked by the "cyber-security" filter.
(It's a wonder THIS site will open here)

I'll just assume that this falls into the "All your base are belong to us" category of internet-popularized intentional misspellings.

Is "moran" from an old nintendo game too?

[fa_jing]

Hey I still enjoyed that fight, even with the lack of action. Truth is, Leben avoided many of the takedowns, didn't get submitted and gave himself a chance to win. He should have jabbed his way in more like his coach was telling him. Seemed to have trouble closing the distance. I think that he got tired with all the time he spent underneath in the first round.


Wot a d!ckhead though. He deserved to lose.

[Ray Pina]

Nuero, I like your art work -- especially the brain and stem on lowest left hand side .

.....
Also, for those just joining: all I wanted was a specific fight, or one of a possible handful that could have come from that house of MMA. I understand they have more to lose than me .... but I'm just a gung fu guy. Should be no sweat for a MMA.

As for folks here, I don't want anything from anyone, though I'd apreciate it that folks exchange hands with me first before labeling me a troll. Disagree with me in theory, in applications .... hey, that's the point. But if you're going to get personal, well, we're all fighters here aren't we? Less singing and more bringing.

I've already made it clear that I travel a lot for work. I'm sure there's a manufacturer, distributor or large retailer in your area that I can convince my publisher that I really need to go see if you aren't near NYC.

All I ask is that we each put $500 down, wear no gear and respect the tap.

[Ford Prefect]

Neurogrrrl, Yup. Pretty much. I was going to use "all you base" as an example.

Same here, Fa jing. Leben impressed with the fact he was able to stuff Josh as much as he did. I was hoping he'd be turned into a bloody mess though. He'd talk all that junk and prank everybody, but then a little comes his way and he smashes the house and cries. Maybe he just needs a hug.

[Ray Pina]

Hey I still enjoyed that fight, even with the lack of action. Truth is, Leben avoided many of the takedowns, didn't get submitted and gave himself a chance to win. He should have jabbed his way in more like his coach was telling him. Seemed to have trouble closing the distance. I think that he got tired with all the time he spent underneath in the first round.


Wot a d!ckhead though. He deserved to lose.

I also think he did a great job of stuffing the shoot the first round and was unfortunate that a few of his knees just missed .... an inch could of changed the outcome.

[Ford Prefect]

Ray,

You should take heart with what I said about the legality of any match like that. It can go both ways. You can travel, show up for a fight, and then get hit in the face with a bat or shot, get sue'd for any damages to the person, etc. It's your word against their's, and to local police, you could easily be painted as some crazy internet guy that travelled to person x's town to beat him up. Stick with sanctioned fights and exhibition fights with local schools. Too many f'ed up people in the world to risk anything else.

[Ford Prefect]

Ray,

Also if you're serious about testing your stuff, there is an open MMA training league in NYC. This is for people from a variety of styles to train MMA. There are some Kung Fu guys there already. If you go to www.mma.tv/tuf and post an ATTN: Sambo Steve, he should be able to give you the details.

[ShaolinTiger00]

There are technical differences and they are based on philosophical differences.

My master, and now I, sees most people's aproach to fighting as capital to capital ... meaning everyone's swinging out trying to take someone's head off. This is greedy and unrealistic .... as soon as the other guy is longer than you he can do Butterfly (Ali) and keep you out with the jab. My master is short and old with extra short arms so he has developed a way to fight the bigger guy.

So, we try to deal with the troop first. We want to strike the incoming blow or shield and ask for both hands and fight from there (Chi Sau and Wing Chun has this too but I don't see it when they fight.)

How we do that: we don't like straight punching. It can be cut from above by the tall guy and easily pushed aside by the shooter. Garcie loves for you to try and punch when they come in. Even if they take one, that extended arm loses its leverage and they have you.... we use a sort of short wave punching. It all comes from the same delivery but can change to hook, upper cut, overhand, backfist ... most tell you from the beginnign which is which. Short power allows you to keep it lose and at the last minute change.

Kicking: Philosophically we believe kicking is like the landing craft in Saving Private Ryan ... it's very serious. Do or die. Punching is for fighting, kicking is for kill. Don't use the pistal when it's a sniping battle. Don't use the sniper rifle when it's up close and personal.

Against the shoot: We have some very unqiue ways of dealing with this but don't want to go into too much detail. I've said it here before though, we are happy if someone wants to present their head/neck in exchange for our leg. If you are grabbing me, who's protecting your head. This of course is not saying we can't be taken down -- of course we can -- but who will have better position once down ... the guy with the leg? Or the guy with the neck? Taiji hold the ball and cloud hands when combined with Hsing-I's agressive stepping comes into play here.

We are primarily a punching, kicking, locking, throwing style (though I'm not good at the lcoking or throwing) and have recently evolved to the ground ... we've been fortunate to have a few Gracie school members visit the school to play with us, one stayed to train for about a year, also we now have a collegiate wrestler as well as a Judo player join and we know the importance of this.

To sum up E-Chuan, from my view, is a practical style that looks to win but does not want to rely on being stronger (can you fireman the 380 lbs guy? Then why train in that way, change it.), longer, or faster to do it. Size matters of course. But how to change the odds.

Also, we feel no style is complete or perfect including our own. We look to see what looks good and doesn't and most of all test it. Test it. Test it.


This guy is a genius. Genius I tell you..

[Ray Pina]

Ray,

Also if you're serious about testing your stuff, there is an open MMA training league in NYC. This is for people from a variety of styles to train MMA. There are some Kung Fu guys there already. If you go to www.mma.tv/tuf and post an ATTN: Sambo Steve, he should be able to give you the details.


I know about this, I've been on their mailing list for some time now.

The things is, I have friends who train MMA and even study at the mid-town Gracie Academy, so I have plenty of opportunity to see and feel. I just don't think it's in my best interest to go and play with these guys and let them see what I do. I may face these men. At the very least, while I'm playing their cooaches or team mates are looking.

I feel I have an advantage in that I know their tendencies, what they like to do. They have no idea about mine and what I like to do, especially against the shoot. I feel this is my No. 1 advantage.

.....

There are A LOT of schools closer and cheaper than my masters. The reason I go there is precisely because I think he is a genious.

Check with some of the folks who have visited my teacher. People are very quick to talk smack ... why no bad comments from anyone who visited my teacher? And when you visit, he won't be in the back office. At 64 he's in the thick of things, with the gloves on.

[fa_jing]

Hey Ray - I agree that some tactics might be sucessful the first time because of a surprise element....and it is natural not to want to show your stuff to potential opponents without reason -- but if you are planning on multiple competitions, people will catch on to you sooner or later. Right?

[rogue]

I think the problem with the situation is that you want to fight one of these guys because you saw them on TV, but they had to earn the right to be on TV. The guy who lost in TUF 6 was 18-1. That's 19 fights just to get on the show.

It's kind of ridiculous that you think you should be given a shot just because you want it.

You need to earn the right to fight these guys. Hell, those guys were saying they weren't going to fight on the show if their wasn't cash involved. From the bios given on the show most of those guys sound like they are one step from living in the bad end of the trailer park. This isn't The Apprentice, the UFC is their big break to earn some cash and I can understand why they wouldn't want to risk it all fighting a nobody.

[Ray Pina]

Hey Ray - I agree that some tactics might be sucessful the first time because of a surprise element....and it is natural not to want to show your stuff to potential opponents without reason -- but if you are planning on multiple competitions, people will catch on to you sooner or later. Right?


Of course. And of course I use one tactic and I know they'll either copy it or do something to counter it .... but than that just becomes the set up for tactic No. 2.

Everybody is getting better and adapting, no doubt.

But when I feel I'm ready, I'm going to challenge the Gracie school -- whoever they want to put up -- and take a little camera up town and film it. When I put one of them in a Guillotine and give their neck a nice crank .... or God, please God let them want to do stand up .... well, that's all it's going to take.

I don't take this as being rude. They have long said to the world, "Come on." I have found a man who has been very quiet -- but make no mistake, every NYC Chinatown sifu knows exactly who he is ... they just don't like to talk about it and neither does he ... but this man ... this man has something very different.

I don't say this as some kid who walked into his first Kung FU class and was like "WOW, look, these guys can stick hand." I say this as a kid who started Isshin-Ryu at 4 years old, studied Hung Gar with one of Frank Yees old time best, S Mantis under Mr. Norman Chin's disciple ... have fought and fought, have friends who do Gracie and MMA. I'm in NY and have all of this around me. This style is what I've been looking for and I won't say better or worse ... but I can say with complete confidence it is different.

I liken it to what Gracie brought years ago. Something new. And on top of it all the man is so nice and cool and would love for people to come and take a look. I've been saying it a long time, at least come and see it. Just hearing him talk about martial arts ... it sets of a big light bulb.

[rogue]

But when I feel I'm ready, I'm going to challenge the Gracie school -- whoever they want to put up -- and take a little camera up town and film it. When I put one of them in a Guillotine and give their neck a nice crank .... or God, please God let them want to do stand up .... well, that's all it's going to take. For some strange reason I have the feeling that I've seen this movie before.
Ray, why wait. Why not go and roll with them now and in a friendly learning kind of way. And I'd leave the chip on your shoulder at home.

[SevenStar]

All I ask is that we each put $500 down, wear no gear and respect the tap.

Now you're getting the idea. Just like you would want money, so would they - and they have way more at stake. you want to fight anyway, right? just go through the natural progression. right now, you've had one local fight. have more. then go nationally. then go internationally... eventually, you will probably have the opportunity to meet those guys.

[IronFist]

Hey, someone give me Cliff's Notes to this thread.

btw, whatever Ford says is right.

w00t.

[Merryprankster]

Ray,

The problem is you've got to earn it. That's it.

I want to compete in the ADCC trials, but I have to earn that.

I would like to get a couple more 8-man or 4-man competitions under my belt, but I have to earn that too.

I can't walk up to a promoter or a pro fighter (grappler in my case) and ask them to throw me in or challenge them and expect to get my way. Now, if you DO, well, bully. You don't ask, you don't get, after all. But you can't EXPECT it.

If you don't want to make an appearance before you think you are ready, that's fine, but when you are ready to make an appearance, start at the GQ or NAGA MMA events. They can get you all the way to the UFC - look at Drago from Serra's in Long Island. UFC, Pride, Shooto, even King of the Cage probably won't take you right off.

You have to earn your shot. The general level of collective annoyance you're feeling tends to be a direct response to two things:

1. Whether you mean to or not, you give the impression that you don't think you have to earn it.

2. You are bashing a couple of pro-fighters who've paid their dues and demonstrated their chops. It's one thing to say you think they could have done better. It's another to say YOU could have done better.

On a note derived from my personal experience, having a Division I champion on top of you (multiple NCAA titles, if I'm not mistaken), who decides you are not moving can make for a very boring, inactive fight. I've rolled with Chris Leben and he's pretty darn good...but the reality is, you sometimes have little choice in the matter. What you call lack of effort is lack of opportunity, and energy management demands no useless efforts.

As far as how boring the fight may have been, your boring is another man's win.

[rogue]

Merry, as someone who has rolled with Leben, where do you think he went wrong? I thought he had the experience and the fire but somehow he looked off his game. At least off of the game that I thought he would do.

[Merryprankster]

Merry, as someone who has rolled with Leben, where do you think he went wrong? I thought he had the experience and the fire but somehow he looked off his game. At least off of the game that I thought he would do.

Rogue,

I haven't the foggiest. I haven't seen the fight :D

My points are generalities. I HAVE been on the receiving end of some top notch D1 wrestlers and world class BJJ and Judo Black Belts. It's a very helpless sort of feeling - and I have no doubt that if any of them simply locked down and decided not to give me an opportunity, I would be unlikely to be able to create one.

Post a link to the fight and I'll be glad to comment!

[Merryprankster]

Rogue,

Just watched the fight.

In the first round, I'm not sure there was a ton he could have done. Kocheck (sp?) was controlling him extremely well and using the fence to his full advantage.

In the second round, I believe Chris had more space to maneuver.

In both rounds, I would like to have seen Chris use his guard to blast his opponent off, create space and get back up. Both feet in hips and push.

Chris isn't a bottom player really. It doesn't mean he can't, it's just that Team Quest has a very top oriented game.

Randy was right in the corner to tell him to focus on getting up. Kocheck's takedowns were very good, but Leben successfully defended many of them. I think a sprawl and brawl strategy would have been very good here, with focus on the ground being to get back up.

I also think that Chris should have kept his feet on the ground and gone for low kicks only.

In the couple of clinches that occurred, a good strategy would have been one sharp knee, followed by a push off followed with a good short one-two or one two three flurry with the hands, following ONLY as much as you need to to make solid contact. Continued contact is an invitation for Kocheck to execute, and not following the push off with a flurry tells Kocheck he can close the gap with abandon while allowing him to control range without interruption. Charging forward with that flurry is an invitation to get taken down if you miss. One-Two, or one-two-three, step back while changing the angle as soon as the combination is finished.

[rogue]

Thanks Merry, that's what I expected him to do but he didn't, and that really surprised me. I guess it just wasn't Lebens day and Kocheck was smart enough and good enough to take him. The good news for Leben is that he's now a name and it wouldn't surprise me to see him and Kocheck go at it again in a future UFC.

It's something to see the professional gap between them and a Liddel or Ortiz. I wouldn't want to meet any one of them in a well lit alley but there does seem to be some kind of a difference between them and most of the pro's out there.