Biu Jee

[whippinghand]

"The techniques in Biu Chee were designed to be used in situations when all other techniques have failed and the practitioner finds themselves in a situation of peril."

Agree, disagree?

[azwingchun]

I believe Bui Gee principles are basically emegency techniques. Though I also believe that if one only fights only to defend himself and not for show or picking fights, then the energy of Bui Gee should be used to end the situation at all times. Just my opinion. ;)

[yenhoi]

Biu Jee movements (footwork/body movements) are also for recovery, distressed movement energy generation etc. (When you've lost the centerline/losing the fight.)

Although those are still technically emergencys.

strike!

[Watchman]

I disagree. Biu Tze is a layer to be added on your powers which have been developed previously in SLT and CK.

If it was just a hodgepodge of "emergency techniques" then I think you wouldn't need a whole form and system of training around it.

I feel proficiency in Biu Tze allows you greater ability to dictate the range and method with which you mete out destruction to your opponent (especially in regards to footwork).

[CLOUD ONE]

i agree with watchman.
SLT is for foundation and alighnment development of chi.
Chum Kiu is using SLT in motion the difussing of attacks especially.
Biu jee is for footwork and attacking.
Without the proper foundation of SLT and Chum Kiu, bui jee won't mean a thing!!!

Can anyone explain what Chum Kiu really means and what is it you are 'Chum-ming'?

[kj]

Chum as in chum kiu means "seeking", as in seeking the bridge. Chum as in chum sau means "sinking" as in sinking the wrist. The term implies a gentle sinking and displacement, rather than strenuously moving something out of the way. The idea is to effortlessly allow the wrist to gently sink as if into a pillow. To think of forcing the wrist will defeat the purpose. Romanizations and perspectives may vary.

Regards,
- kj

[whippinghand]

Now back to the initial subject....

[MasterPhil]

"The techniques in Biu Chee were designed to be used in situations when all other techniques have failed and the practitioner finds themselves in a situation of peril."

If "all other techniques have failed", then the biu jee techniques will most likely fail as well. The problem lies in the person, not the techniques...

If, after you and your opponent touched hands, you cannot gain control of him despite not holding anything back, what makes you believe that your opponent won't be able to counter your biu jee techniques as well? That firsts statement implies that there is some kind of superiority to the biu jee techniques. If that was so, wouldn't it be better to concentrate on training biu jee exclusively? Of course, it is not so.

I don't agree with the common idea of biu jee being a compendium of "emergency" techniques. What are the basic wc techniques for then? Fun and Play? IMHO, if a person has lost such control of a situation that it comes down to touching/fighting, then it IS an emergency situation! What more are you waiting for?

For every situation, there are multiple techniques to apply. Not all techniques are best used in every situation. Some are best used only in very specific situations. But no technique is "better" than others. They all differ in structure, delivery, etc. It is up to the practioner's to understand each technique's use and essence and the body will do the rest, instinctively using its natural structure to respond to an aggressive stimuli.

In short (I tend to get uselessly volubile when interested...), my understanding of biu jee is closer to watchman's I guess.

ST

Surrounded by chaos, the true taoist laughs...

[fmann]

I agree with ST.

BJ only enhances your technique, weaponry, movements, etc.. It doesn't take precedence over anything else in emergency situations or anything.

It's just another form.

[joy chaudhuri]

I wrote a fairly thorough post on biu gee but the system logged me out for some reason (quirky) and the post disappeared into
cyberspace. So I will just listen.!!Too lazy to start the post all over again!! Cheers. :D

[CLOUD ONE]

To me chum- is to sink your own stance!
When one practices the Chum Kiu form ,you spin from neutral to side neutral to side neutral.
To start don't you have to be grounded? Whilst spinning are you grounded also?
I don't think chum means 'seeking' but sinking.
your take on chum sau is easier if you did it with your whole stance!
Just my opinion!

[Bessho]

What about techniques from the other forms? Are they for regular situations? When you have to fight, is it perilous enough? dew!

[kj]

Did you ask your sifu? I can understand if you are abiding by his/her application of terms. I don't object to your observation on the importance of sinking the stance; matter of fact we apply that concept in all the sets, not just chum kiu. Just a thought, if chum kiu referred specifically and only to sinking the stance, something like chum ma might be a more suitable title.

Dismissal of additional meanings of chum contradicts the understanding of many native Cantonese speaking Wing Chun practitioners. There are several words/characters with the sound of chum in Cantonese. Are you by any chance a native Cantonese speaker yourself? If so, your additional insights are also much appreciated.

Regards,
- kj

[This message was edited by kj on 10-29-01 at 09:50 AM.]

[yenhoi]

In light of actually reading the original post:

I wouldent say that when you are fighting you begin the fight using concepts/techniques from slt, and if your opponent is too good you move onto chum then to bil. thats crazyness.

After having learned and practiced the slt and chum then the bil teaches you more advanced techniques/balance/power generation etc etc etc, meaning after diligent practice under a sifus observation makes your Wing Chun skills more advanced/better developed and refined.

Sure, bil gives you some more techniques at original face value, it really just teaches you to use your tools and weapons more effectively. (Most importantly balance, and power generation - shooting finger srtikes around obstacles presented by more advanced resistant opponents.)

strike!

[Bessho]

Thanks. What you say makes sense. Is just doing the bil jee form going to teach you how to use it? How do you train your fingers take the pressure of striking? What if you biu bone instead? Broken fingers? Then how do you develop the accuracy in hitting? who's going to stand there to give you a target? How many kinds of exercise/training do you have to learn?

[dzu]

I think to understand the role of Biu Jee, one needs to examine the set within the context of Siu Nim Tau and Chum Kiu as well.

Siu Nim Tau trains the coordination of the hands and body, connection with the ground, and introduces the various methods to capture the centerline. The practitioner first discovers where his own center is and uses this as a reference. SNT trains the practitioner to focus his mind and training on 'the little things' (hence the name "The Little Idea"). These little things are not observable to the eye but are the foundation for the remainder of the system.

Chum Kiu takes everything learned in SNT and builds upon that. Previously, the pracititioner used his own body as a reference for coordination. Chum Kiu trains methods to both 'seek' the bridge (establish contact, close the gap) using coordinated footwork, and also to 'sink' the bridge (destroy structure, change the centerline) by adding a new level to what was trained in SNT.

As the third and final empty hand set, Biu Jee again builds off of the first 2 sets to face the centerline (SNT), capture the centerline with our bridges, and change the centerline based upon the opponent's reactions (CK).

Biu Jee builds upon the theme of breaking and changing the centerline introduced in CK, but adds another dimension: not only do we break the opponent's center, but we learn how our own center is broken and how to regain it. In many cases, to regain your center after it has been lost requires that you break the opponent's hold upon the mutual line by destroying his structure and/or changing the line.

The name of the set implies that the energy and intent 'dart' or 'shoot' from the fingers so that a new line can be established precisely and quickly. The opponent has the advantage and you need to seize opportunity to extricate yourself before it is too late. It doesn't necessarily mean that you are only striking with fingers physically, only that the intent should be there.

If your WC is good, you probably don't need Biu Jee since you have captured the centerline and can change in response to the opponent. These methods are found in SNT and CK. I think BJ focuses more on breaking the center (both ours and the opponent's) and regaining the centerline in the event that you are in trouble. You can certainly use some of the techniques found in BJ, but the ideas and methods are already present in Siu Nim Tau and Chum Kiu.

IMHO.

Dzu

[[Censored]]

I would prefer to stand still, punch forward, and thereby end the fight.

If this will not work, I would like to step and turn my body, without sacrificing my root or posture, and thereby end the fight.

If this will not work, I would like to raise my elbows and bend my torso without losing the connection, take larger steps without sacrificing balance, and reach the opponent without closing sufficiently to punch, thereby ending the fight.

If this will not work, I'll take out my knives and hope for the best ;)

In short, I agree.

[Bessho]

Nice set of preferences. How do you train to accomplish that?

[CLOUD ONE]

Dzu your interpretation of 'little things' is ambigous. I feel that 'little ideas' is no thought
or simple ideas. when one settles in the horse in SNT, you are relax then with the mind(not the brain) you do the form using as little effort to perform the moves. This you will find in chi sao where your arms and whole body is alive(receptive)
Through stillness comes motion or emotion which one do you practice with? once you start to think then you have lost the plot.
Just my opinion.

[CLOUD ONE]

Bui jee is a way of attacking. For instance could you do the Bui Jee form with P.E punch?
I don't thik it shows any new techniques really.
all the tecniques are found in SNT, but different principles are taught in the three forms.
to me Bui jee is 'lethal weapon' where if one was to use it would properly then 'end game'
Just my opinion!

[whippinghand]

Which is most efficient? Which is most effective?

[dzu]

Cloud One,

The 'little things' are everything that I mentioned above, especially coordination of the hands and body and connection with the ground. These are coordinated physically by feeling and making small adjustments with one's muscles to create and maintain alignment. The mind is trained by focusing the intention to guide the physical motions. These are all small things when compared to the large physical motions (shifting and stepping) found in Chum Kiu and Biu Jee. You cannot see the alignment happening, and you cannot see the intention being directed. You can only feel the results.

Dzu

[[Censored]]

How do I train to follow my preferences? Obviously:

Siu Nim Tau
Chum Kiu
Biu Jee

The straight line may or may not be most efficient or most effective. To borrow the language of 5 element theory, neither metal nor water is intrinsically superior to the other, unless your pants are on fire. :)

[Bessho]

Really? just doing the forms?

[whippinghand]

What is the purpose of raising your elbows and bending your torso"?

[Nichiren]

I'm curious? How many on this forum has actually learned the Biu Jee? I do not mean that you have seen and tried doing the form but I mean really learned it (applications of it etc. I have not after 3 years of WC.)?

[[Censored]]

As a last resort, to avoid retreating, in which case the advantages of Wing Chun are lost.

Do you have a better explanation?

[whippinghand]

YES

[Bessho]

Throws a brick to catch gold.

[whippinghand]

Don't you mean jade.

[Bessho]

depends. :rolleyes: ;)