WT in UFC??

[Neo]

Hi all

I downloaded a clip today that showed Reza Nasri fighting in the UFC. the beginning of the clip the announcer says that he is a 2nd tech in Wing Tsun. I've never heard this mentioned on the net until now, and google search doesn't bring up anything more enlightening other than how he lost, which I clearly saw on the clip! Out of nothing more than idle curiosity, anyone care to enlighten me on him, as he seems to have videos out on greco roman as well. Some of the google searches are in non english pages, and seems to mention Emin Boztepe along side.

Many thanks in advance.

[old jong]

Could we have a link to that clip?... ;)

[anerlich]

Last century called and wants its clip back. This was real popular on the wcml in the late 90's.

WT pretty much disown the guy and any claims.

FWIW, I saw a thread on bullshido that showed pics of a successful British (I think) WT exponent who, the poster claims, uses modified WT techniques in his standup for NHB fights. Sensibly IMO, he combines it with submission grappling.

David Levicki was a WT exponent too IIRC. He went down to Rickson very quickly in the 94 or 95 vale tudo champs in Japan.

[lawrenceofidaho]

WT pretty much disown the guy and any claims........

David Levicki was a WT exponent too IIRC. He went down to Rickson very quickly in the 94 or 95 vale tudo champs in Japan.

I once asked Sifu Emin about Reza Nasri, and he told me that Reza had taken about 8 lessons from him.

The declaration that Reza was a "2nd Tech" in Wing Tsun was an error. -In the WT world, a 2nd level technician would be training in biu tze and wooden dummy techniques, while Reza was still in the early learning stages of basic chi-sau.

I talked with a WT guy who (while traveling) met Reza and had a workout at his gym. He told me that Reza and his wrestling students spent the majority of their time on grappling, but were working on mixing in some WT for stand-up and certain kinds of entries.

He said, in talking to Reza, it seemed that the motivation to do the cage fights was to promote his wrestling videos and his school, but things ended up not going in his favor.......

As for David Levicki, he never did WT....... He was a student of Ron Heimberger (and Master Ip Ching?) for a few years until he and Ron had a falling out shortly after David's loss in the preliminary round of UFC2.

-Lawrence

[anerlich]

I stand corrected, Lawrence, on David Levicki. I seem to remember getting into an argument with a WT guy from Hawaii who claimed DL trained at his school once, and the instructor offered him an entire training program, which of course, like a fool, he did not and the rest is history. I might well be wrong about the WT connection (after age 50 my memory is starting to act up), but in any case in this "What if" I still would have bet the farm on Rickson.

You can probably find a clip of Sali Avci (sp?) a WT guy, against Dave Beneteau a seasoned grappler/NHB fighter, in an NHB fight. It's an EXTREMELY one-sided fight. From memory WT guy presents classic guard position, Beneteau double legs him, gets mount immediately, G&P's WT guy unanswered until fight stopped.

[AndrewS]

Andrew,

the fight you're talking about is the Reza Nazri/ Brian Johnston fight. Sali's a different beast.

The fight- Reza shoots a double, the clinch comes, Brian muscles Reza over in a nasty throw and he's out when he hits the ground.

Reza's credentials- WT-wise I heard he was a 10th SG. His training with Emin was them grappling together. Prior to the time of the fight I heard Reza had been warned he was out of his league, out of condition, and over-reaching. He had been an *excellent* competetive wrestler in Iran, but hadn't worked with people in his league for years.

Later,

Andrew

[Vajramusti]

He said, in talking to Reza, it seemed that the motivation to do the cage fights was to promote his wrestling videos and his school, but things ended up not going in his favor.......

As for David Levicki, he never did WT....... He was a student of Ron Heimberger (and Master Ip Ching?) for a few years until he and Ron had a falling out shortly after David's loss in the preliminary round of UFC2.

-Lawrence

((Prior to the fight- in various posts and discussions- Reza apparently was being identified as being coached/trained by EB. Heimberger was originally with WT for quite some time. Levicki was shown doing the double bong sao from chum kiu- and not very well IMO. He also looked quite out of shape.
I dont recall seeing the Avci fight.
But a student(I forgrt the name) of Duncan Leung(supposedly) in a fight in a Canadian Indian reservation- surprisingly began his effort witha kick and was not surprisingly taken down. Suposedly he was not encouraged to enter in the first place.

It takes guts to enter any ring or cage- so kudos to all above.
However , I have not seen a top flight wc person or a top ranked boxer in the ultimare/extreme matches. Grapplers yes. One needs appropriate training/conditioning regimens
and complete internalization of the rules for each type of event.))

[AndrewS]

Joy,

funny, I don't remember anything of the sort being said about Reza at the time. I heard about him from Mike Adams, who had trained with him in Arizona, but he was not being touted within the AWTO as being our great hope. Obviously people wanted him to win, but he was never considered a great exponent of the system.

As far as I know Sali has never fought professionally.

Andrew

[Vajramusti]

Andrew-
I did hear about Reza working out with Emin before his fight... but I dont honestly remember where and how. I dont know about Reza's own wrestling ability but Iran and Turkey have produced good wrestlers. I was wishing the best for him and still do. A loss is not the end of the world.

[lawrenceofidaho]

((Prior to the fight- in various posts and discussions- Reza apparently was being identified as being coached/trained by EB. Heimberger was originally with WT for quite some time. Levicki was shown doing the double bong sao from chum kiu- and not very well IMO. He also looked quite out of shape.
I dont recall seeing the Avci fight.
But a student(I forgrt the name) of Duncan Leung(supposedly) in a fight in a Canadian Indian reservation- surprisingly began his effort witha kick and was not surprisingly taken down. Suposedly he was not encouraged to enter in the first place.

It takes guts to enter any ring or cage- so kudos to all above.
However , I have not seen a top flight wc person or a top ranked boxer in the ultimare/extreme matches. Grapplers yes. One needs appropriate training/conditioning regimens
and complete internalization of the rules for each type of event.))

Hi Joy,

Reza was, in fact, taking lessons from EB prior to the fight, but they were lessons like would be given to any student (not fight preparation). Sifu Emin has never trained fighters for competitions (although it seems he plans begin to now.)

Ron Heimberger was with WT for three years. (I trained with him for the latter two of those three years.) Even though he had the largest WT school in the USA at the time (Ron is one of the best salesman-marketers I've ever met.), his knowledge and skill of LT's system would not be considered that of an expert. The ranking he had when he left was 6th student grade. If you want to see what rankings mean in the LT / WT world, check out Sifu Sergio's page here:

http://www.wingtjun.com/nav.php?nav=training

Ron later finish the wing chun system under Master Ip Ching after he moved to Utah........

I can't comment on Levicki's skill since all I've ever seen of him were the same snippets everyone else saw on the UFC2 video, but he did seem rather soft around the middle at that time to be fighting at a "world class" level. (Andrew, -I'd bet the farm on Rickson too!!)

I don't know of any fights that Salih Avci has participated in.

The fight referred to was actually Dave Benetau vs Abel Cancio (VT stylist).
Here's the breakdown:

1) Abel comes out in a traditional man-sau / wu-sau on-guard position, throws one punch (which misses) and is taken to the ground by a double leg takedown by Dave. (All this happens in the first six seconds.)

2) Dave lands on top of Abel in a position in which Abel could have EASILY gotten a half-guard (had he bothered to cross train :) ), but he does not know this position.......Dave COULD have mounted Abel at this point, but for some reason went to side control (which Abel seems to have no idea how to escape), and held him there for 7 seconds.

3) Dave climbs over to the mount (which Abel appears to have no idea how to prevent) and proceeds to land AT LEAST TWENTY clean punches to the face during the next 9 seconds. -Abel was frantically tapping out, but the ref was at the wrong angle to see the tap, and allowed the beating to continue. :(

-I downloaded that from Bullshido several months back, and it's possible they may still have it available for those who haven't seen it.

The Duncan Leung student who fought in "Extreme Fighting" is Steve Faulkner. He claimed 13 years experience and a "fight record" of 14-0 (chi-sau competitions?).......He went up against Russian Sambo stylist Igor Zinoviev.

Here's the breakdown of that one:

1) Steve comes charging out and throws a low front kick, to which Igor responds by moving back out of range. Steve immediately throws the exact same kick with the same leg, but this time Igor closes in, lifts Steve up and slams him to the canvas. (All this happens in the first 5 seconds.)

2) Igor establishes side control, and Steve positions his legs to prevent the mount while he tries to position himself for some kind of strike. (Maybe he learned from watching Cancios' mistakes??) He spends thirty seconds in side control, and unable to create space for a strike or escape starts to turn his back. Igor loosens his hold allowing him to turn a bit, and then (with impressive speed) gets Steve's back and puts the hooks in.

3) Steve taps out a moment later as Igor applies a rear naked choke. (Total fight time is about 40 seconds.)

Steve appeared to have some basic groundfighting ideas, but likely had never worked with a top notch grappler like Zinoviev who was able to keep control positions so tight and make transitions so quickly.

If there's some interest to see this fight (and Steve's wing chun demo which they played before the fight), I might be able to post the clips. (Let me know.)

-Lawrence

[Vajramusti]

Hi Joy,

Reza was, in fact, taking lessons from EB prior to the fight, but they were lessons like would be given to any student (not fight preparation).
((OK))
Sifu Emin has never trained fighters for competitions (although it seems he plans begin to now.)
((Interesting))

Ron Heimberger was with WT for three years. (I trained with him for the latter two of those three years.) Even though he had the largest WT school in the USA at the time (Ron is one of the best salesman-marketers I've ever met.), his knowledge and skill of LT's system would not be considered that of an expert. The ranking he had when he left was 6th student grade. If you want to see what rankings mean in the LT / WT world, check out Sifu Sergio's page here:

((LT's ranking would be of little inteerest to me. Thanks))



I don't know of any fights that Salih Avci has participated in.


The Duncan Leung student who fought in "Extreme Fighting" is Steve Faulkner. He claimed 13 years experience and a "fight record" of 14-0 (chi-sau competitions?).......He went up against Russian Sambo stylist Igor Zinoviev.

Here's the breakdown of that one:

1) Steve comes charging out and throws a low front kick, to which Igor responds by moving back out of range. Steve immediately throws the exact same kick with the same leg, but this time Igor closes in, lifts Steve up and slams him to the canvas. (All this happens in the first 5 seconds.)

((Generally a bad idea(the kick) - for reasons I have discussed before))



If there's some interest to see this fight (and Steve's wing chun demo which they played before the fight), I might be able to post the clips. (Let me know.)

((Would'nt be a bad idea to showwhat his "wing chun" was like))

Thanks, Joy

[Nick Forrer]

FWIW

Igor zinoviev is a very skilled (olympic calibre) Judo/sambo guy. He beat Mario Sperry (in an amazing 15 minute fight) before being KOed by Frank Shamrock in about 30 seconds.

[lawrenceofidaho]

FWIW

Igor zinoviev is a very skilled (olympic calibre) Judo/sambo guy. He beat Mario Sperry (in an amazing 15 minute fight) before being KOed by Frank Shamrock in about 30 seconds.

It's interesting that Frank KOed Igor with the same takedown/slam that Igor did to Steve Faulkner in the previously mentioned fight........I remember seeing Carlos Newton escape that type of slam (after being lifted) by executing a cool looking aireal sumersault, but it doesn't appear to be an easy technique to execute. Most people are probably going to end up hitting the ground hard once they've been lifted like that.....(Anyone care to offer their insights on what you can try using to counter / escape the "big slam" after you've picked up?)

Joy,

I'll give Justin the clips on Sunday, and ask if he can get them posted. (I don't have internet access at home and am using a public computer at the moment.)

-Lawrence

[YungChun]

((Generally a bad idea(the kick) - for reasons I have discussed before))



Absolutely astounding that he would have led, not once, but twice with a kick?

A Southern Stylist handing his base over to the grappler just blows my mind.

Reminds me of UFC 1, I think, where the hard core Karate guy from Japan, perhaps he was Shotokan lead with a flip floppy lead round kick that was out of range and also landed on the ground in 5 seconds or so. Shotokan is about focused and committed attack not flimsy dancing.

I mean if the guy takes you down fine, but giving him a big ole handle like that is just mind numbingly dumb and not in the nature of a Southern Boxing art.

[anerlich]

The fight referred to was actually Dave Benetau vs Abel Cancio (VT stylist).

Oops! Lawrence is correct. Apologies to all, and especially Mr. Avci!

[anerlich]

.....(Anyone care to offer their insights on what you can try using to counter / escape the "big slam" after you've picked up?)

Not really, but Rickson managed the same thing in one of his matches in "Choke". Looks like he's going to take the mother of all slams, but somehow reverses it in mid-air and lands on top in side control. I'll spend a bot of time with the DVD, slow-mo and frame by frame thsi weekend and let you know what I find out ;)

[lawrenceofidaho]

Hey guys (and gals),

I've got the Steve Falkner clips on disc (both demo and fight), but I can't find the thread that had the instructions on how to post. :confused:

Can someone help me out?

(The demo clip is about 1MB, and the fight clip is about 1.3 MB.)

Thanks. :)
-Lawrence

[Ernie]

Hey guys (and gals),

I've got the Steve Falkner clips on disc (both demo and fight), but I can't find the thread that had the instructions on how to post. :confused:

Can someone help me out?

(The demo clip is about 1MB, and the fight clip is about 1.3 MB.)

Thanks. :)
-Lawrence

big [L]
email it to me so i can put it in my [this is exactly what not to do file ] :D

if you send them to Phil he will put them up

hope all is well brother

[Vajramusti]

Lawrence- thanks for taking the trouble and sharing and I hope that Phil can put it up. I am fairly sure that it will show the error of a wc person beginning an encounter with a skilled fighter with a kick. Even when one makes mistakes there are things to learn by the partcipants and discerning observers.

[lawrenceofidaho]

Phil,

I don't have an address for you. Would you please PM it to me so I can send you the clips?

Thanks. :)



Ernie,

they're on their way to your mailbox........

-L

[Ultimatewingchun]

I remember seeing that fight. While it's true that beginning a fight with a kick can be risky business - just from the way he was standing and coming in - even if he didn't throw the kick - I think he would have been taken down easily.

Dealing with a possible shoot for a takedown changes the whole dynamics of fighting...in ways that "conventional" wing chun strategies and techniques don't really have answers to.

Sometimes simultaneous blocking, striking, and possibly sidestepping will work against a skilled grappler - and sometimes you have to throw the whole wing chun book out and use a wrestling maneuver to deal with takedown attempts.

If the grappler starts his shoot too soon - you can stay up on your feet and counter...but if he's skilled at closing (and especially if he's skilled at closing after he's thrown a strike as a set up)...then countering him using pure standup wing chun alone is a 50/50 proposition at best.

Not good odds.

Learning wrestling defenses (sprawls, crossfaces, etc.) is an absolute necessity in today's fighting world, imo.

[old jong]

If the grappler starts his shoot too soon - you can stay up on your feet and counter...but if he's skilled at closing (and especially if he's skilled at closing after he's thrown a strike as a set up)...then countering him using pure standup wing chun alone is a 50/50 proposition at best.

I agree that very good timing is required vs a good quality closing.But the setting up with a strike is another thing! Will a Wing Chun practitioner just raise his hands and do nothing while the guy is closing in to clinch or shoot?...IMO,the guy feint or strike and we,using Wing Chun principles and techniques,should not just raise the hands to create a good opening for the opponent but counter and attack ,preventing him from taking the advantage and putting him in a defensive situation.
As always,the key is being active instead of simply reactive.

But,I see nothing wrong in the sprawll,crossface and other similar things if necessary.

[Ultimatewingchun]

Nobody said anything about just raising the hands and creating openings for your opponent if he tries to close quickly for a grab and takedown...of course you wouldn't do that - and of course you need to stay active and aggressive against such a fighter.

But that doesn't change the fact that it's a 50/50 proposition at best that standup wing chun strategies and tactics will stop the fast-closing takedown...or the clinch that may lead to the takedown.

Learning how to mix Wing Chun with grappling in these situations - instead of just trying to rely entirely on wing chun - is the way to go, imo.

In a real fight - it's very hard to stop a clinch from developing against a good, strong, skilled fighter determined to make it happen...

BECAUSE YOU'RE BOTH probably going forward toward each other...and so, unless you think you can knock just about anybody out with one or two punches or kicks...

you're going to find yourself in a clinch situation very often.

[old jong]

Nobody said anything about just raising the hands and cresting openings for your opponent if he trys to close quickly for a grab and takedown...of course you wouldn't do that - and of course yyou need to saty active and aggressive against such a fighter.

I did not accuse you of saying that Victor!...It's just that we can see this strategy used a lot in MMA matches and it works a lot for some reason.I have seen it in BJJ tapes and everywhere.They assume that this will bait everybody into rising the hands to clear the way for a clinch or takedown.I differ in opinion because the instant somebody throw a hand,could it be a feint or real attack,I will instantly use it to attack myself.This is part of Wing Chun's principles IMO.Of course this is not the same when somebody has been trained to just raise the hands in case of attacks and a clear way to a clinch or shoot will be provided.
As I said earlier,I agree about the sprawll and other similar tactics if needed.Nobody is perfect all the times! ;)

[anerlich]

I am fairly sure that it will show the error of a wc person beginning an encounter with a skilled fighter with a kick.

I can't argue with this generally ... but Royce won at least one of his bouts in UFC1 by faking a front kick just prior to shooting a double leg - on Art Jimmerson and maybe someone else as well.

I've got a picture (the Gracie Way) of Rickson doing something similar (to Levicki of all people) in one of his Vale Tudo fights.

[old jong]

I can't argue with this generally ... but Royce won at least one of his bouts in UFC1 by faking a front kick just prior to shooting a double leg

The main thing in his favor is that he doesn't care if he gets caught and brought to the ground!... He wants it! ;)

[Ultimatewingchun]

"It's just that we can see this strategy used a lot in MMA matches and it works a lot for some reason.I have seen it in BJJ tapes and everywhere.They assume that this will bait everybody into rising the hands to clear the way for a clinch or takedown.I differ in opinion because the instant somebody throw a hand,could it be a feint or real attack,I will instantly use it to attack myself.This is part of Wing Chun's principles IMO.Of course this is not the same when somebody has been trained to just raise the hands in case of attacks and a clear way to a clinch or shoot will be provided.
As I said earlier,I agree about the sprawll and other similar tactics if needed." (Michel)

QUITE RIGHT....

Wing Chun is very well suited to NOT just create an opening for the opponent if he throws a strike to set up a grab and takedown...by raising our hands. If one is disciplined enough in wing chun he will not react in such a manner - and will probably attack - as you said.

So the takedown won't be a simple one....but he can force a standing clinch if he's any good - and do it a significant percentage of the time...so much so that wrestling maneuvers and takedown counters should be a natural part of the arsenal.

That's my whole point.

[old jong]

So the takedown won't be a simple one....but he can force a standing clinch if he's any good - and do it a significant percentage of the time...so much so that wrestling maneuvers and takedown counters should be a natural part of the arsenal.
As I always say: The more Wing Chun you have =The less you might have to deal with some bad situations! But,who is perfect 100% of the times?...So,basic and simple defenses against these attacks can be learned and integrated easily just in case.

[Vajramusti]

Anerlich- Any comment/observation on Rickson's reversal in midair in dealing with the slam-after watching his stuff again? Curious.

Joy

[anerlich]

Anerlich- Any comment/observation on Rickson's reversal in midair in dealing with the slam-after watching his stuff again? Curious.

ulp ... I, er, haven't got to this yet :D

[Phil Redmond]

Just got back from Toronto. Here are the clips.
http://www.free-element.com/wingchun/SteveFaulkner_1.WMV
http://www.free-element.com/wingchun/SteveFaulkner_2.WMV
PR

[Vajramusti]

Thanks Lawrence and Phil. For sharing the videos.

Kudos to both match participants for entering the match. Takes courage.

Didnt see any wing chun in it... and the first training video(with "multiple" opponents) is relevant to my views on "sparring."

joy

[lawrenceofidaho]

Just got back from Toronto. Here are the clips.PR

Thanks Phil. :)

-L

[Juudas]

Hi everyone,

To me the first clip does not really represent sparring but rather normal training situation, or an exercise which we do at the seminars. The koong-sao clips found in here http://www.meihua.ee/index2.php?file=video represent sparring, or something very close to it, to me.

The second clip: the wing chun-guy was rather toothless in front of the other guy. In my opinion there was one fundamental error - he attempted to attack the guy with a hasty low kick, and he did it first before his opponent really did anything, and by doing so opened his defence. Why did he not wait and let the other guy make the first move (preparation for attack) which he could have countered with his move (attack)? Now he just rushed forward unprotected. I'm for sure no specialist in wing chun/tsun/tsung, but it appears to me that before the other guy can get a hold of you, he must get pass your front leg (foot/leg/knee) and your front hand (fist/arm/elbow). If he tries to shoot to your waist while your protecting your upper body with your hands, with correct movement (side step) you should be able to kick or knee his face/head while he is diving down, or elbow his neck/back of the head, or strike his neck and temples with hammerfist or with the edge of the hand. If he manages to grab your waist, you should still have time for one or two blows before he takes you down with him, which, if properly executed might make a difference and soften him up a bit so that you have more changes fighting him while on the ground. In that videoclip the wing chun guy had no defence at all and the other guy got a really good hold of him. I think that if the WC-guy would have stuck to what he has learned to do and not try to fight as NHB-fighter he would have got better chances. In the first clip it was mentioned that this wc-guy can block and punch at the same time and kick low and everything; why did he not do so? To direct frontal attack a low kick or direct front kick is quite effective, not to mention kick to the groin (probably not allowed in that kind of fight). These may not end the fight, but they will surely cause great pain to the opponent and probably destabilize him a bit, both mentally and physically. Anyway, that second clip probably demonstrates how important it is to keep your package together even under great stress (the wc guy looked a bit stressed in the corner).