Nei Jia vs Wai Jia

[SPJ]

One theory is that Qing royalties used it to divide martial arts circles at the time.

The other theory is that the students of Tai Ji, Ba Gua and Xing Yi had a meeting and decided to study from one another. They grouped themself as Nei Jia.

The true story seemed to be that Shaolin and Wu Dang had Nei Jia cultivation and MA long before Tai Ji, Ba Gua or Xing Yi.

For most schools of CMA, Nei Wai Jiang Xio or Nei and Wai cultivations are both needed.

And only CMA has theory of both Nei and Wai?

What is your opinion about this matter?

Does your school of MA have both Nei and Wai training methods and theories?

How are they different?

Or only the speed and power stressed and nothing else?

:confused:

[count]

Proper training methods, like stance/step training, have aspects of all nei/wei/qi gong's when done correctly. Training qi gong alone is not beneficial to martial arts. But as my teachers says, too much external training can make you sick by stealing from your internal health. And too much internal training robs from your external health. So over all balance is essential to a healthy training program. :cool:

[Christopher M]

The other theory is that the students of Tai Ji, Ba Gua and Xing Yi had a meeting and decided to study from one another. They grouped themself as Nei Jia.

The true story seemed to be that Shaolin and Wu Dang had Nei Jia cultivation and MA long before Tai Ji, Ba Gua or Xing Yi.

These aren't conflicting stories: when the "Tai Ji, Ba Gua and Xing Yi students" declared themselves "Nei Jia," they weren't claiming that only they had "Nei Jia cultivation" -- they were merely identifying themselves as a distinct martial culture and chose that as their name. It appears they were not aware of the confusion this would cause and had tried to change the name once such confusion arose, but the original name was already popular.


For most schools of CMA, Nei Wai Jiang Xio or Nei and Wai cultivations are both needed.

Right. But this does not mean that "most schools of CMA" possess the qualities of the "Nei Jia" when this word is used to refer to the distinct martial culture founded by the "Tai Ji, Ba Gua and Xing Yi students." In other words, "Nei Jia" as that culture and "Nei Jia cultivations" refer to different things.

[gfx]

If we look back to the end of Ming and starting of Qing dynasty, there was no classification of "neijia" and "waijia" at the time. There was a record of something called "nei jia quan", however, that was a single style as supposed to a broad catagorization. Description of the style can be found in "WangZhengNan tomb record", and stories of ZhangSongXi in "Ning Buo government records". Both WangZhengNan and ZhangSongXi are NeiJiaQuan masters, and Wang's skills is claimed to have descended from Zhang. They both claim that the root of their art is from ZhangSanFeng, and from the principal of taiji. It's important to know here that Taiji itself is just a theory, and has little to do with Taijiquan itself. The name of the style itself is simply "Nei Jia Quan", and our earliest record of it is around the same period that Chen Wang Ting came up with Chen Taiji. They are independent however, because Chen Wang Ting founded Chen Taiji in isolation and in his old age.

There is in fact a "Song Xi Nei jia" style in NanChong, SiChuan province in China right now., which claims to be the style ZhangSongXi practiced in the end of Ming dynasty. It was only recently discovered in 1980s, and many of its movements interestingly corresponds with QiJiGuang's 32 fist methods. Even the names of some of the techniques are the same.

Looking at this style however, it has more in common with Long fist than with Taiji. It's a style that is uses throws heavily, and excels at close range standup grappling. The training method also focuses heavily in external conditioning as well as body coordination and power generation not unlike taiji, although it's much more dynamic.

My point is that the classification of "Neijia" and "waijia" for styles is basically meaningless. Any respectable Chinese style contains similar power generation, body coordination and conditioning methods. "External" styles such baji, pigua/tongbei, or long fist have very "internal" power generation methods. And "internal" styles like bagua, chen taiji have very rigorous and difficult external conditioning methods.

The label "internal" and "external" is simple the Chinese way of saying the body coordination methods and power training methods. For the body to generate power, muscles need to contract/expand. External is to thicken the muscles, and internal is to 1. relax muscles in their normal state, so contraction can be maximized when needed. 2. coordinate the muscles in the body in a structural way so that output of power can be maximized. This includes breathing and alignment...etc. That's it, there's nothing more than that.

This kind of conditioning is common to ALL martial arts in the world, and also in sports. So there is nothing mystical about it. We simply have a better understanding and better theory for them.

So the answer to the question? All (respectable) martial art schools and sports have "neijia" and "waijia" methods.

[Christopher M]

My point is that the classification of "Neijia" and "waijia" for styles is basically meaningless.

Your story doesn't relate to that point -- since it concerns the style called "neijiaquan" rather than the classification "neijia."

As I noted, every martial art may have wei cultivation and nei cultivation, but that doesn't mean a weijia has the qualities of a neijia nor vice-versa: "neijia" refers simply to a distinct culture of martial arts, not one which claims to have all the nei cultivation methods.

I'm not sure why this point is so difficult to grasp in the case of the neijia. Surely we recognize, for example, that judo has different qualities than karate. Why is it so problematic, then, to imagine the same principle in the chinese martial arts?

[gfx]

Yeah, it dosen't seem to have much relevance does it. I realized that too, but by then I had typed too much to stop. :D

[count]

Your story doesn't relate to that point -- since it concerns the style called "neijiaquan" rather than the classification "neijia."

As I noted, every martial art may have wei cultivation and nei cultivation, but that doesn't mean a weijia has the qualities of a neijia nor vice-versa: "neijia" refers simply to a distinct culture of martial arts, not one which claims to have all the nei cultivation methods.

I'm not sure why this point is so difficult to grasp in the case of the neijia. Surely we recognize, for example, that judo has different qualities than karate. Why is it so problematic, then, to imagine the same principle in the chinese martial arts?
I wasn't clear on the fact that Chinese was your native language. I also wasn't aware that these terms refered to a culture as opposed to a method. If that is the case and as you are arguing, judo and karate from the Japanese culture are so different, than how are the qualities of tai chi and hsing-i much the same?

[Christopher M]

I wasn't clear on the fact that Chinese was your native language.

It's only reasonable to comment on chinese martial arts if chinese is your native language? That's an interest position, but one we'll have to agree to disagree on.

[Christopher M]

Yeah, it dosen't seem to have much relevance does it. I realized that too, but by then I had typed too much to stop. :D

Well, it's an interesting story, and it does explain some of the confusion surround the Nei Jia family of chinese martial arts -- such as the recurring theme that they are associated in some way with ZhangSanFeng.

[Fu-Pow]

If anyone wants to know the difference then I suggest that they spend 20 min/day doing some kind of "standing post" exercise.

Relax every muscle in your body that you can. What you are left with...whatever it is that is holding you up....that is "internal."

[Vash]

Relax every muscle in your body that you can. What you are left with...whatever it is that is holding you up....that is "internal."


Either going to be muscular tension or some joints locked in such a manner as all force is being imposed on the cartilage, ligaments, and surfaces of joint articulation. Not a good thing, that one.

[count]

It's only reasonable to comment on chinese martial arts if chinese is your native language? That's an interest position, but one we'll have to agree to disagree on.Not at all, but when arguing with Chinese people about their own culture and language, it might be best to have the actual experience to draw from. Otherwise it might be informative to discuss instead.

About the Chinese term "jia" in neijia


If that is the case and as you are arguing, judo and karate from the Japanese culture are so different, than how are the qualities of tai chi and hsing-i much the same?

[Fu-Pow]

Either going to be muscular tension or some joints locked in such a manner as all force is being imposed on the cartilage, ligaments, and surfaces of joint articulation. Not a good thing, that one.

One thing I can tell you is the joints are definitely not locked because none of them are held straight, they're all bent.

Secondly, muscular tension is at a minimum especially in the large muscle groups of the legs.

Thirdly, I'm talking about subjective experience, not propositional truth (ie science.) Although, there is obviously a correlation between how you feel and what's happening objectively in the body.

I'm saying "try it" come back and tell me if you " feel " a difference. I can definitely feel a difference between how I normally move and how I move after practicing standing post. And I believe that difference is the difference between "internal" and "external."

The only way you'll know if I'm telling the truth is if you try it (ie participate.)

[Christopher M]

Not at all, but when arguing with Chinese people about their own culture and language, it might be best to have the actual experience to draw from.

I have all the "actual experience" required to make the comments I made, which is how I was able to make them. Their truth or falseness is completely independant of both my ethnicity and that of the other people in this thread. If you disagree with me, please address my comments rather than my race.

P.S. It appears that in your haste you failed to notice that I never disputed anyone's remarks in the first place. My response to SPJ claimed only that the Nei Jia are a martial subculture and that Nei Jia cultivations are found both among them and the Wei Jia -- which were points he had already made. My response to GFX claimed only that Nei Jia Quan is a distinct art from the Nei Jia -- which is a point he had already made. I added nothing new.

[Vash]

One thing I can tell you is the joints are definitely not locked because none of them are held straight, they're all bent.

Secondly, muscular tension is at a minimum especially in the large muscle groups of the legs.

Thirdly, I'm talking about subjective experience, not propositional truth (ie science.) Although, there is obviously a correlation between how you feel and what's happening objectively in the body.

I'm saying "try it" come back and tell me if you " feel " a difference. I can definitely feel a difference between how I normally move and how I move after practicing standing post. And I believe that difference is the difference between "internal" and "external."

The only way you'll know if I'm telling the truth is if you try it (ie participate.)

Actually, I have. From Tai Chi and Hsing I. Regarding Hsing I, I practice the Xing Yi Nei Gong on my non-weightlifting weeks, and used it extensively in my recovery.

I like the "pole standing," as it does facilitate the ready state of muscular tension, as opposed to the nervous state of muscular tension.

However, I would be rather hesitant to make it a cornerstone of my training when bagwork and sparring facilitate a much more dynamic technical growth.

[Becca]

... I like the "pole standing," as it does facilitate the ready state of muscular tension, as opposed to the nervous state of muscular tension.

However, I would be rather hesitant to make it a cornerstone of my training when bagwork and sparring facilitate a much more dynamic technical growth.
The "ready state tension" is internal. The "nervous state" is the natural state for a human. In studying Qi Gong, you are trying to reteach your body to use a different source of fule, so to speak. You are teaching it to use energy the way a major muscle group would use it, and to stay relaxed when you do not need that exact muscle to accomplish what you need to do.

As my senior sifu puts it, "using only enough energy to keep yourself in place; only enough tension to keep your self in place; only the skeletal muscles. This is how you train the fast twitch muscles to be strong and how you train the major muscles to let other muscle groups help with the work load."

[Fu-Pow]

"using only enough energy to keep yourself in place; only enough tension to keep your self in place; only the skeletal muscles. This is how you train the fast twitch muscles to be strong and how you train the major muscles to let other muscle groups help with the work load."

What do you mean by "skeletal muscles?"

In biological terms there are two main types of muscles, smooth and striated ie visceral and skeletal.

In other words, all muscles that aren't in your guts are "skeletal."

Do you mean the muscles that lie closer to the bones?

[Fu-Pow]

Actually, I have. From Tai Chi and Hsing I. Regarding Hsing I, I practice the Xing Yi Nei Gong on my non-weightlifting weeks, and used it extensively in my recovery.

THEN WHY DO YOU ARGUE WHEN YOU KNOW I SPEAK THE TRUTH!!!!




I like the "pole standing," as it does facilitate the ready state of muscular tension, as opposed to the nervous state of muscular tension.

Please define "ready state" vs. "nervous state."

I'm not clear on this terminology.




However, I would be rather hesitant to make it a cornerstone of my training when bagwork and sparring facilitate a much more dynamic technical growth.


I agree. Pole standing is "static training." Just like horse stance is "static training." Ultimately, you have to move on to more dynamic training (with or without a partner. ) However, you can always check what you are doing against pole standing. It's like a way to remind yourself "am I really relaxed all the way through."?

[Becca]

What do you mean by "skeletal muscles?"

In biological terms there are two main types of muscles, smooth and striated ie visceral and skeletal.

In other words, all muscles that aren't in your guts are "skeletal."

Do you mean the muscles that lie closer to the bones?
He means both when he says that. Trying to use the muscles closer to your bones. He also meant not to clench the muscle walls protecting the vital organs. Ever notice that when you are trying to hold a position and focusing on it really hard that you feel a bit sick to your stomache? These are the main things his mantra is reminding you to avoid doing.

[count]

My Shifu wrote the follwing article about Neijia and Waijia (Internal and External) martial arts: http://www.geocities.com/ycgf/arti_NW.htm

P.S., This should settle any lingering questions, because it is possibly the best explanation you will find.
Your personal teacher wrote that??

Of course, no one in their right mind could argue with that. But of course they will.

[count]

Yes, my personal teacher wrote that article amongst others. Some of his articles have been published in Tai Chi magazine. I meet with him twice a week. I could do more if I wanted, but I am a busy guy.
You are very lucky to have access to Zhang. :cool:

BTW. 2 days a week of instruction works for me. I hope you have training time at home though. You have a great opportunity.

[SPJ]

just to revisit the topic.

this is most frequent question asked of me.

what would be your reply?

:)

[bawang]

the only solid information is from shaolin quanpu
it says a person who trained "nei gong" internal skill looks like a normal person but is hard as iron
this is done by fasting and eating vegetables. qigong also helps lose weight



excercises that are soft or internal excercises are literally soft or internal, not mystical or spiritual
sneaking "light skill" is soft skill. following a coin with your eyes is a soft skill. swimming is a soft skill. punching a moving target is a soft skill

qi is not involved. imagine qi helps concentration but doesnt make the excercise internal.
in advanced kung fu weightlifting there is also imagining qi. but it is external.
dodging many sandbags doesnt imagine qi but is a internal training skill

[bawang]

wots ying/yang hard/soft internal/external???!?!?!?

attacking is a yang. defending is ying.
punching is hard. poking the eye is soft
taking a punch is hard. dodging is soft.
feeling aggresive is yang. being calm and defensive is ying
blocking is hard. parrying is soft
hip rotate is hard. hip vibrate is soft (fajing)



external/internal is jsut confusing chinese labels. theres no mysterious qi
a internal fighter means he is defensive and likes to dodge

[bawang]

why is "internal" so high level and secret?!?!?!?!?!?!

popular internal training excercises
-lose as much fat as possible by diet, fasting so he doesnt look muscular
-doesnt get callous on his knuckles
-does face massaging excercises so his face doesnt look muscular
-trains climbing over walls (bi hu skill)
-trains sneaking (light skill)
-trains running away into a big crowd (part water skill)
-trains weapons that you hide like rope dart, throwing knife (soft weapons)

for strange reasons internal/soft training has a lot of training for assasinating someone. that explains why internal training is so secret. but it has nothing to do qi

[YouKnowWho]

this is most frequent question asked of me.

what would be your reply?
I used to enjoy this kind of subject many years ago. Today I can't care less about the difference between "internal" and "external". If we all are more interesting in the similiarity than the difference. The world will be a much more pleasant place to live in.