Body building

[dre_doggX]

I have seen many wing chuners who look fit, and strong outwardly.
like William Chueng

how can you do this lots of reptitions on moves?

heavy weapons.????
need answers

Andre Lashley

[Gluteus Maximus]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> heavy weapons.????
[/quote]

Yes, blunt instruments work well, ie dumbells.

Max

Yooby Yoody

[Martial Joe]

They might eat good.

Maybe they train their wing chun in a cardio fashion...

http://www.stopstart.fsnet.co.uk/smilie/lolup.gif IXIJoe KaveyIXIhttp://www.stopstart.fsnet.co.uk/smilie/lolup.gif
I am Sharky's main man...

[EmptyCup]

Chi sau and air punching help develop the arms, shoulders and pecs. If you use waist turning that might help the love handles too :) although general consent is that those need full body work to get rid of...

[Sharky]

maybe just maybe, some people supplement their wing chun with other training?

Isometrics? Weights?

All i wanted was some RICE CAKES! Now? WE MUST BATTLE.

[dre_doggX]

I can send you something???

Andre Lashley

[Sharky]

uh, what i wanna send me? sure no probs man

All i wanted was some RICE CAKES! Now? WE MUST BATTLE.

[jameswebsteruk]

Send him some RICE CAKES! :)

The chalice from the palace has the pellet with the poison,
The vessel with the pestle has the brew that is true!

[dre_doggX]

Can't anyone give me answers

Andre Lashley

[fa_jing]

Some wing chun-specific traing will increase your strength, like hitting the wall pad, or kicking hundreds of times. But don't you think these guys do traditional Chinese Martial Arts training? Like pushups, iron bridging, dynamic tension, etc?

[S.Teebas]

Idealistically** WC should not use strength, but until you can reach that stage, you will probably get a an-aroberic workout.

**Although i know some school train WC differently, where-by they use 'dynamic tension'. I have not trained with anyone who does this so dont know if it is good or not.

If you want to bulk up hit the weights, but it may be counter productive if you are trying to relax in your WC class and all you can feel is tight muscles.

I think of WC as a long term martial art that allows to get better as you get older. Rather than reach your peak at 27 or whatever!?!


S.Teebas

[Wei Sui]

According to what my sifu said. Weight training can affect developing sensitivity.

He tells our group to stay away from weights. At the very most work on very very light weights with high reps.

When bulking up, it shortens the muscles and can lessen sensitivity. Doing heavy weights condition the the muscles to heavy/higher pressure stimuli..ie.arm curls. When lesser stimuli is presented, it is harder to feel as the muscles are "used" to more pressure. ie Rose bushes vs a tree feeling wind

Someone asked him about Bruce Lee (he's built/cut) and he said that once you have developed sufficient or a high enough level of sensitivity, then there would be no issue with working out. But as a general rule, when you are just starting to learn/develop/hone sensitivity, try to avoid heavy weights.

I can see his point. But that's not gonna keep me away from the gym:-). I usually work on toning anyhow.

Comments?

*************************
Dai yut tow dai :)

[dzu]

Shortening a muscle will not in itself affect sensitivity. The danger in weight training is that it trains the muscles to contract fully or not at all. This is an 'all or nothing' affair, which is not always the case in WC. Quite often the adjustments in positioning are very slight and don't involve much muscle contraction at all.

When this carries over to WC, the practitioner can become too focused on feeling the muscles work and contract. This creates 'noise' or 'interference' that has to be filtered out so that you can distinguish between yourself and the opponent. You certainly don't want to get big to the point that muscles are actually getting in the way. More importantly, if you can 'feel' your power, it's probabaly coming from the wrong source (muscles instead of alignment with the ground).

This is not to say that weight training should or should not be done. That is, afterall, each individual's personal choice. It is important, however, to know the possible dangers so that you can prevent them from happening by monitoring and adjusting your WC training accordingly.

Dzu

[IronFist]

S.Teebas said:
think of WC as a long term martial art that allows to get better as you get older. Rather than reach your peak at 27 or whatever!?!

Well, with regards to strength training (not bodybuilding), many powerlifters reach their peak around 40-45. Not that it's really old, but it's older than 27 :)


Wei Sui said:
He [Wei Sui's sifu] tells our group to stay away from weights. At the very most work on very very light weights with high reps.

Very very light weights with high reps is practically useless. It doesn't develop strength. It doesn't develop size. It doesn't develop speed. Endurance is debatable. No offence to your sifu, of course.

When bulking up, it shortens the muscles and can lessen sensitivity.

Not really. The muscles are only shortened during contraction. During the concentric portion of a bicep curl (when you're curling the weight up), the bicep is shortened, and the tricep is elongated.

Doing heavy weights condition the the muscles to heavy/higher pressure stimuli..ie.arm curls. When lesser stimuli is presented, it is harder to feel as the muscles are "used" to more pressure. ie Rose bushes vs a tree feeling wind

I don't know about this. As you get stronger, heavier weights don't necessarily feel lighter, you just feel more powerful and able to lift them. This varies from individual to individual however.

Also keep in mind that you don't suddenly become a huge bodybuilder over night. If you train kung fu along with bodybuilding you won't notice any sudden changes in your muscles or anything. In fact, you most likely won't notice anything. When you were a little kid did you feel yourself growing? Of course not, because it was a gradual change. Such is the case with bodybuilding as well.

Someone asked him about Bruce Lee (he's built/cut) and he said that once you have developed sufficient or a high enough level of sensitivity, then there would be no issue with working out.

See my post about Bruce in the main forum :) :) :)

But as a general rule, when you are just starting to learn/develop/hone sensitivity, try to avoid heavy weights.

I might recommend this as well, just because a newbie to both MA and bodybuilding or powerlifting at the same time might become overwhelemed. But if someone has been weight lifting for a long time I don't think they should stop just so they can concentrate on MA.

Another factor is soreness. Bodybuilding training leaves you sore for a few days. This can MOST DEFINATELY affect MA training. Normal strength training (not for size), however, doesn't really cause soreness, and I see no reason why it would interfere with MA.

that's not gonna keep me away from the gym:-). I usually work on toning anyhow.

I hope you don't mean light weights and high reps. You know that "toning" is a product of diet and bodyfat levels, and not how many reps or sets you do, right?


dzu said:
The danger in weight training is that it trains the muscles to contract fully or not at all.

Muscles don't contract all or nothing, it's muscle fibers that do that. The more muscular effort you exert, the more muscle fibers fire. A muscle fiber can only fire all or nothing, but the number of fibers that are go at any given time is proportional to the amount of work being done.

When this carries over to WC, the practitioner can become too focused on feeling the muscles work and contract.

Erle Montaigue has said the same thing to me. I'm not sure if I agree with it or not, but I definately understand this argument.

Iron

[dzu]

Iron,

My point is that weight training exercises are gross movements that use as many muscle fibers as possible per given set. WC uses small movements in response to directed force from the opponent. The goal is to minimize the load in comparison to weight training, which seeks to maximize it.

I am not as anti-weight training as some other WC people, but I don't think that it is crucial for developing skill.

Dzu

[mun hung]

Being an ex-powerlifter and bodybuilder myself, I can say that I had a hard time loosening up a bit for Wing Chun in the beginning.

IMO - lifting weights does'nt really throw you off as much as many seem to think. People seem to like using this excuse though. Like anything else, it all depends on how you train.

IMO - being strong is a plus.

[CerberusXXL]

Wing Chun alone will not give you nice and tone muscle, so you need to do other activities. A good way to train is to do some weight lifting, cardio.

[Gluteus Maximus]

If you want to put on some muscle and look trim and remain flexible and fluid in your movements:

1. Train WEIGHTS.

2. EAT right.

3. Do CARDIO.

4. SLEEP well.

5. Take lots of WATER.

6. SUPPLEMENTS (my opinion only - these ones work well for me):

a. A good high-potency multivitamin/mineral tablet.

b. Extra vitamin C. Helps repair cell damage.

c. Fish oil/flaxseed oil (Omega-3) (canola, sunflowers and others also good).

d. Protein powder (whey is the best).

e. Glutamine - helps reduce muscle soreness and seems to give me extra energy to put into my weight training.

f. Creatine (monohydrate) - I only take it periodically. It seems to give extra strength so that you can lift heavier weights and therefore put on more muscle. It also increases muscle size by helping to hydrate muscle fibres. When you stop taking it, some of your muscle gains disappear.

g. Others - do your own research. Most are very expensive. The jury is out on the effectiveness of a lot of them.

You can still make good gains without any of the supplements listed above, but to do this you have to make sure that you are getting all the necessary vitamins, minerals and amino acids in your diet - far more than are ingested in the average diet.


Don't just do one type of cardio, but mix it up. I do bike, treadmill, swimming and rope.

I prefer free weights most of the time, specifically dumbells, because they give you a greater range of motion than machines.

Full-body stretching before and after lifting weights will help keep your movements fluid and relaxed.

This is how I've trained for years and I haven't found that it's affected me adversely in any way.

Max

Yooby Yoody

[This message was edited by Gluteus Maximus on 11-02-01 at 11:41 PM.]

[dre_doggX]

Cardio do you mean wingchun cardio or kickboxing cardio isnt there anything that can help within
the wingchun
anything to increase strength in muslces like tiger or hunggar.
:(

Andre Lashley

[Wei Sui]

What do you mean when you say strength? Striking strength? lop sau strength?

Jeff, perhaps you mean internal energy?

ie. many gung fu masters can inflict much more damage than a big muscle man could ever do... for many reasons other than strength, here are just two

1. their internal energy
2. how their structure is when executing a strike or uprooting someone(ie. generating power in hips per say)

I am not sure what you would need to train strength wise?

am I off track on this?

cheers

*************************
Dai yut tow dai :)

[whippinghand]

How does staff training and Bat Jam Do training fit?

[OdderMensch]

I know that Sifu Alan Lamb promotes the use of "heavy" weapons (ie 10lb BJD, not 50 cal HMG) for stregth training. And the pole seems like a good workout but I've not yet learned the pole.

I will say that i love seeing Kung Fu weapon sets done with real-weighted weapons rather than thin tinny crap, when you can see the control needed to just hang on to the thing.

one thing i've thought of about the cry for better "conditioning" in Kung Fu is that many of our KF ancesters, and ancesters in general i'd bet, walked, ran and carried loads far more than we do in modern day to day liveing. I'd imagiane our need for suplmental exercise would amuse the old guy that got up every morning, worked the farm all day, then walked the 15 or so miles to the local kwoon to train.

Modern nutrition/exercise can make for a fabulous body, but in general (esp here in the US where i live) people are in no better and likely far worse shape endurance/stregth wise compared to his/her peers from 200 years ago.

but at least the plauges hve died down a bit in our time. ;)

[Wei Sui]

Thought/Intuition

I was thinking perhaps jeff was trying to derive strength from the wrong source?

internal/physical...

*************************
Dai yut tow dai :)

[whippinghand]

I wasn't making reference to your post at all.

[Wei Sui]

I apologize for my misinterpretation/incorrect assumption

Wei Sui

*************************
Dai yut tow dai :)