Do you learn everything from your instructor?

[HearWa]

I've been training in Kung Fu for five years now. My instructor is still young (he's about 26 right now) and I am not sure if he can teach me anything "specialized" (eg. a wing chun dummy or the Chin Na system) now. I'd like to believe I'm pretty good for what I have learned, but I feel I'm being limited right now. I just don't think there's any other knowledge I can glean off him at this point in his life. Maybe later because he's still studying, but I'm growing impatient.

I'm not one to make quick, rash decisions but I'm considering the option of leaving for something else (boxing is my only other option around these parts). He's a really nice guy who works hard but I have come to disagree with some of the things he does after I've had some experience in the martial arts. It's really a shame. What really makes this hard to do is I'm good friends with everyone in the class.

His instructor is very knowlegable and I've been talking to him to see if I can learn some of his "traditional" San Shou and Chin Na, but I can't make it up there now. It's an excellent kwoon and all. I'm not bashing it, they're all great people and exceptional martial artists.

So before I decide to leave, I just have a few questions for you. I'm trying to compare what I'm learning with the rest of the CMA world.
1. Are your classes divided into groups for individual training?
2. How long do you train in line by yourself for?
3. How long do you work on forms?
4. How long do you work on form applications, and is this structured?
5. How often do you work with a partner? And of this, how long do you spend sparring?
6. How often do you work the pads?
7. In wanting these specialized subjects taught am I expecting too much from one person?

A few things I disagree with concerning the classes right know is how long we spend kicking the air and doing basic exercises. This will last about a half hour most of the time. And with this period of time the class quickly turns into an aerobics class with people kicking and punching with no power or energy. The second half is usually working on beginners forms (everybody there, even people who've been there five years like myself). The second hour is usually working on forms, or if we're lucky sparring or partner work (form to spar ratio: 6:1). Do alot of CMA classes do this, or do you get taught wing chum dummy exercises, chin na, etc.? Or am I being a whining little ***** because I can't learn from another person who would know this material?

[Toby]

What's your system? I learn WC. Last night for example, we did almost 1/2 the class forms. Slowly going through SNT and CK and the instructor explaining the names of the moves and applications as we went through and 3 instructors individually correcting any mistakes. That took about 1/2 hour. Afterwards we did some single step drills, starting with simple responses to straight punches and roundhouses, then progressing to multiple moves in response to the same punches. Afterwards just some chi sau until the end of the class. The forms thing was a rarity - usually only every few months we'll go in-depth like that. Some nights it's all sparring. Most nights it's at least 3/4 partner work. Our class has lots of people, but is generally split up into 4 groups - raw beginners, < 1 yr beginners, < 2 yrs and > 2-3 years. Sometimes we'll break up into more specialised groups with some guys going to work on the dummies, BJ, poles, knives, etc. Pads - yeah we break those out sometimes. Focus mitts, kick pads or body shields depending on the application. All our classes are structured. Often we work on phases for a few weeks or a couple of months. E.g. we haven't done much padwork lately but we've been doing a fair bit of sparring.

[SimonM]

We do a hellova lot more partner drills than you apparently. My sifu tries to teach using many training tools. His gym is pretty cluttered right now, a full class fills all the available space even when it bleeds over into his 1/2 size boxing ring so he put away the wooden dummy excercise station we just pair up for blocking and bridging drills.

[David Jamieson]

I learned a lot from all my teachers. From Karate to TKD to Kungfu and now to peer exchanges that consist mostly of what could be called progressive martial arts or mma or even take it as far as jkd concepts.

It's all good.

The methods I use to train are sound, and are visited a few times a week.
I do much more alive training than I ever did in the Kwoon, Dojo or Dojang. Which over the last few years has gotten me really thinking about what is good for fighting, what is specifically for health and as well in some cases what is pretty much useless to me. Doesn't mean it's useless to everybody, just not for me. Probably has something to do with my age, maybe my perspective and more likely than not direct experience.

It's all good and remember, It's about what floats yer boat and not what others tell you about sailing. :p

[SPJ]

Apparently there are so many things to do and yet there is only one you.

Which means that everything comes from you.

Let me see, if I only have 30 min or an hour set aside for practice, I probably pick one area or a subject to work on only.

If you feel like that you are "done" with forms and all the lesssons that the teacher provided, you may spar for the time.

Or you may vary some moves based on forms or the lessons you are given.

It is like a sculpture or painting. Once you are shown the colors and techniques to paint, it is YOUR turn to paint or create from what you have learned or gathered.

I may just use the time to drill one move I need to work on. The teacher is there for Q's and A's.

If indeed, you feel that there is nothing more that the teacher may offer you.

Then it is time to move on to be on your own or start another study with another teacher.

:D

[SPJ]

My experiences are the other way around.

My teachers usually state on the first day what I will be learning and what skill proficiency is required.

One day the teachers saw that I completed all the lessons and gained the basic levels of skills. There is nothing more to be taught. And I have to be on my own.

The teachers told me so and that I may leave.

Usually I do not want to leave or end the lessons.

:p

[Nick Forrer]

I've been training in Kung Fu for five years now. My instructor is still young (he's about 26 right now) and I am not sure if he can teach me anything "specialized" (eg. a wing chun dummy or the Chin Na system) now.


The Wing chun dummy is not 'specialised'. It is a logical stage on the road of wing chun development - it follows on from everything you have learnt before - for example the quan sau action is a combination of low bong (in chum Kiu) and tan sau (in SLT). That said if you are going to learn the dummy you need two things - the correct body mechanics/methodology and the right understanding of the concepts behind each action. Just flailing away on it, even really fast like some people i have seen is IMO a waste of time. It is not meant to be used as a punch bag or for arm conditioning.

The important things to note are:

That each move is a move in its own right and is not connected to the last (bar two)- the sequence in which it is performed is therefore not that important.

That it should not be taken too literally - the right arm of the dummy sometimes represents the left arm of an opponent and sometimes the right and same with the left.

That it represents the stiffest, strongest opponent you are ever likely to meet and so you have to use your footwork to negotiate it rather than just force your way in.

That many of the actions in it are recovery techniques i.e. you have made a mistake in your application of wing chun (for example by stopping his right punch with your right bong sau instead of your left) and are now vulnerable so need to recover so you regain the initiative again.

That your force should cleave into the dummy at the correct angle, not go across the arms.

That because of Newtons third law of motion (that for every force there is an equal and opposite force) your structure needs to channel the returning force from the dummy into the ground via the correct alignment of the six points - wrist, elbow, shoulder, hip, knee and foot.

Ask your teacher the concepts behind the dummy. If he doesnt know the ones i have listed above then I would recommend getting a teacher who does since IMO any teacher of wing chun should know all the empty hand forms and the dummy as well as knowing the concepts behind them.

If he doesnt do wing chun but has incorporated the dummy into his 'system' than I would question the utility of learning the dummy form at all.

[william]

Hey,

I at the moment have a real love hate relationship with my class. Some times we do drills, then pad work and then sparring and some weapons work. And I love it,

But other times, we do lots of forms, two person drills that clearly wouldn't work in a 'live' situation, and then train with weapons when I think we really should be drilling basic hand to hand techniques.

Its so frustraiting. However, the class is cheap, (I am a very poor student) and just round the corner from my house. There are no other real options as I don;t have a car, and gettign to some places in my city would take hours of walking, often late at night through rough areas.

So I stick with it. I put in a lot of my own training, and drill all the techniques we do do on my heavy bag. (actually hitting something hard sadly does not happen ver often.

I have thought about leaving. But I too have lots of friends in the class, and get on well with the instrutor.

I just keep saying to my self, its not the art its the way you train. So I workout, I hit the bag, I ask to do more sparring frequently.

For now I will stay there. Untill something else comes up that I can actually get to.

W

[SaMantis]

So uh, have either of you (HearWa & William) talked to your instructors yet about your concerns?

That could give you an idea of the direction your training is heading, and it will give the instructor a bit of feedback on his program. Sometimes a sifu doesn't like to hear negativity from a student, but at least he'll know you have some concerns. If you just up and leave, he (and your kung-fu brothers) will be scratching their heads about why you left and where you went. If after talking to him the training still doesn't work for you, then head for another school. But at least he knows why you're leaving.

[Becca]

I've been training in Kung Fu for five years now. My instructor is still young (he's about 26 right now) and I am not sure if he can teach me anything "specialized" (eg. a wing chun dummy or the Chin Na system) now. I'd like to believe I'm pretty good for what I have learned, but I feel I'm being limited right now. I just don't think there's any other knowledge I can glean off him at this point in his life. Maybe later because he's still studying, but I'm growing impatient.

I'm not one to make quick, rash decisions but I'm considering the option of leaving for something else (boxing is my only other option around these parts). He's a really nice guy who works hard but I have come to disagree with some of the things he does after I've had some experience in the martial arts. It's really a shame. What really makes this hard to do is I'm good friends with everyone in the class.... A few things I disagree with concerning the classes right know is how long we spend kicking the air and doing basic exercises. This will last about a half hour most of the time. And with this period of time the class quickly turns into an aerobics class with people kicking and punching with no power or energy. The second half is usually working on beginners forms (everybody there, even people who've been there five years like myself). The second hour is usually working on forms, or if we're lucky sparring or partner work (form to spar ratio: 6:1). Do alot of CMA classes do this, or do you get taught wing chum dummy exercises, chin na, etc.? Or am I being a whining little ***** because I can't learn from another person who would know this material?
I have felt that way myself, from time to time. My every-day sifu is about 7 weeks older than me. :eek: But then I think back to the fact that he's been studying the style since he was 6 years old, and actually studied with our late grand master. Dude's gotta have lotts of knowledge stuffed in his head. :cool:

The answer to my delema was simple. I think the senior sifu knew I was starting to get restless in my lack of progress, and sort of gave me a tip for how to keep from becomming so board that I quit. (My lack of progress is not due to lack of dedication, but rather an old injury preventing me from passing horse stace in ranck test.) I had a converstion with Toby about Qi Gung several months ago, wich I then talked to him about. Sifu encouraged me to continue practicing this as a breathing and meditation meathod, then told me I should start back at the beginning and apply the tequnique to every stance, form, and drill I'd learned to date.

It's amasing how adding a new level to what you already know makes the technique much more challenging. I also started realizing some very interesting results. Despite the hip injury, I was able to tripple my jump hight in only a few weeks, which made some of my less impressive moves much harder to do cleanly! Sounds wierd, I know. But if you are acustomed to making a spinning moon jump with a block at only 1 foot off the ground, sudenly being able to do it at 3 feet meens you over spin, or land about 2 feet ****her away than you should. I had to go through everything and relearn it. All of a sudden I had no trouble keeping my focus while doing the basics. :)

[HearWa]

What's your system?It's a school that teaches a few systems. What I've heard is you learn forms based on Choy Lay Fut Crane, Hung Gar, Preying Mantis & Shaolin Five Animals to get a feel for what you want, then later in the advanced levels you learn how to apply it. Well, considering I'll be going for black either this summer or next, aren't I in an advanced level? I wouldn't have even learned about the systems principals if it wasn't for forums like this.


bridging drills.I haven't even learned what these are yet, and they seem like a pretty common piece of knowledge...


It is like a sculpture or painting. Once you are shown the colors and techniques to paint, it is YOUR turn to paint or create from what you have learned or gathered.I was told I was supposto come up with form applications on my own. Is this a normal thing?


I put in a lot of my own training, and drill all the techniques we do do on my heavy bag.Same here. I've come up with my own training schedule and am now training six days a week for around two hours a day.


So uh, have either of you (HearWa & William) talked to your instructors yet about your concerns?I'd really hate to... right now I'm so frustrated I doubt I could do it in a civil manner. I'm considering writing him a letter.

---

Overall I am frustrated by the unorganized way I've been getting taught. I just don't feel I'm being taught in a progressive manner, so I may write him a letter.

I just wanted to hear your opinions.

[WinterPalm]

Some of the points made are very interesting and I would like to add a bit of my own experience if I may.
First, the use of self-defense drills, or one on one, not sparring but just working a technique against a punch slowly and with good form and building up intensity as you progress is one of the best methods for training you can do! When I started I did not like this and instead preferred the actual ingraining of technique, bag work, forms, and air kicking, and obviously sparring. But this concept gives you some experience and the ability to read a person and to engage your awareness that cannot be built as well through the other exercises or training, save meditation but I feel that this body awareness, and opponent awareness is integral to Kung Fu. And I didn't even like this when I started!
That last point is something you should consider, you may not understand what the purpose is now, but give it time and it should make sense.
The second point I would make is in reference to your teacher. IF he/she is not a master or certified under your system to teach, then maybe they do not have what it takes yet, however, you should try to remember that you are learnign and are just a beginner, granted I've only been in it for four years, but you still feel like a beginner because you are learning so much. IF your teacher is only 26 it seems he may be too young, or, because I wouldn't want to discriminate, he may just not fit with who you are.
If you are not hitting anything in your training that was passed on to you, then I don't think you are training in a complete art. My Sifu has taught me iron palm, is now beginning to teach an iron ring form and countless other conditioning exercises and bridge building forms that allow you to develop proper body mechanics and skill.
Remember, it is YOU who sought out a teacher, not the other way around. You are assuming this person is qualified and knows what they are doing and is a learned professional to an extent if professional is the right term, and as such, you acknowledge that whatever conceptions you have, they have dedicated a lot more time and effort and are there to show you the path. IF you disagree or really can't understand it, or, heaven forbid!, you know more, then obviously you shouldn't be there.