BJJ Instructor, legit or not?

[Radhnoti]

I'm looking for a bit of help. A nearby town has a dojo that's recently started advertising BJJ classes. I was thinking of checking it out, but I called first to ask some questions. It went something like this:

Me: So, which BJJ family are you guys affiliated with?

Guy: It's not me, it's Scott's class, he's affiliated with Carlson Gracie's school.

Me: Really? What's his rank?

Guy: Blue belt, but that's like a black belt in most schools. He's always been into grappling arts, he studied Judo extensively in college and various other grappling schools prior to starting with Gracie.

Me (suspecting video training exclusively...not unheard of around here) : Oh? Where did he have to travel to train, or is he not from this area?

Guy: Well...my understanding is that Mr. Gracie gives seminars nationwide and when you attend enough and can show you know your stuff, he'll allow you to test.

Me: Hmmm. So, can he advance you in Brazilian Jujitsu?

Guy: My understanding is that you can't test people for belt advancement until you reach Purple belt...which Scott ALMOST is. He'd probably ask one of the purple belts we know in Lexington or Louisville (KY) to come down if the issue came up quickly.

Me: Which I suppose it won't happen quickly...as it takes years to advance, right?

Guy (worried that potential student will run with that fact clarified, I think) : Uh, yeah.

Me: OK, when are classes and how much?

Guy: Thursday at 7:15 and they run for an hour.

Me: And, how much?

Guy: It depends on your individual schedule for training. Come in for a free class and we'll talk payment after that.

Me: I'm just interested in watching the first class, care if I come in this Thursday and observe?

Guy: Sure, I'll put you down for a conference right after that!

Me: I'm not really wanting to roll this time, I'd like to just watch and see how things run.

Guy: That's fine, but the conference needs to be after you watch.



SO....questions I have include:

Are blue belts authorized to teach BJJ?
Is there any way to check a BJJ teacher's credentials under Carlson Gracie?
What are the chances of a guy who's studied extensively in...say Judo, going to a couple of seminars to get the first rank in BJJ and then teaching Judo...saying it's BJJ?
What is a fair price for lessons? Especially if it'll just be one hour a week? (They have a Sat. class that conflicts with my work schedule.)


I'm fairly certain I'm going to get a high pressure sales pitch following my observation Thursday...which I can sympathize with, it's what we call the "winter lull" around here when everyone seems to be scrambling for students. I intend to tell the guy that I need to talk things over with my wife, since I had NO idea what the price would be (sort of a dig at his evasiveness on the phone).

This guy is NOT the only grappling game in my area. There's another guy (small circle jujitsu...so I'm certain he came up via seminars too) who's students win tournaments worldwide teaching the next town over. But, if this guy might be teaching such a well-organized system so close to me...well...I'm interested.

Any advice?

[JKDChick]

Yes, blue belts can teach. In SOME lineages, they aren't aloud to PROMOTE people at all, or only to a certain stripe level with the white belt. Other BJJ lineages let people promote to one level below themselves, Purple to Blue, Brown to Purple and so on.

Look up the instructor on Carlsons website and bjj.org? I think. Those resources are not complete, but better than nothing.

Grappling is the new Kung Fu, yeah, there are a lot of guys with a little background in SOME ground art calling themselves BJJ instructors. The more detailed the lineage (with verifiable credentials, not just snapshots and seminar memberships on the wall) the better. But it can still be a crap shoot.

I remember ... something about small circle, but I can't remember good or bad. Let me look it up.

[Radhnoti]

The small circle stuff is promoted/put together by Prof. Wally Jay. I know quite a bit about that school, as I used to be a student. They also teach a style of shorinryu karate, and judo...but it's actually a fusion of all three the instructor has put together. I left because we had no adults in the class besides the instructor, and the focus was almost entirely on winning competitions (which really charged the kids up I'll admit). I won against every student, they just didn't have my size (oldest was a sop****re in high school)...and never won against the instructor, he was the biggest guy on the U.S. Sport Jujitsu team and he'd have to give me obvious breaks to ever tap him out. That was around 7 years ago, so I'm guessing he's had a near total turnover by now. So, there might be some folks my age/size now.

The head instructor at the place I checked into DID mention stripes now that you mention it...so I suppose that's why they'd have to call down a senior, for stripes.

Thanks for a quick response JKDChick.

[JKDChick]

Oh, you're welcome, always hoping for new converts to the Church. ;)

As a general rule, the grading in BJJ goes

White Belt
3-5 stripes within the white belt category

Blue Belt
3 -5 stripes

Purple
3-5 Stripes

Brown
3-5 Stripes

Black
Stripes ad infinitum

Some schools won't give out more than 3 stripes per belt level, some like to give more to signal that you're GOOD just not ready to promote. And don't be surprised if you stay at a low level for a long time 3-7 years at white belt is NOT uncommon.

[SevenStar]

SO....questions I have include:

Are blue belts authorized to teach BJJ?
Is there any way to check a BJJ teacher's credentials under Carlson Gracie?
What are the chances of a guy who's studied extensively in...say Judo, going to a couple of seminars to get the first rank in BJJ and then teaching Judo...saying it's BJJ?


according to most bjj standards, yes, a blue belt can teach. He can run his own school, but it's called a training association.

you can check rank here:

http://www.bjj.org/a/ranks.html

but ranks can change frequently, and it would be EXTREMELY hard to keep up with all of their blue belts across the world, so don't be discouraged if the guy isn't listed. He was correct about the test, but different people do it different ways. Adriano lucio, for example, will put you through a formalized test for your blue belt. Royce gracie on the other hand, will just give it to you if he's seen you at more than two seminars and it looks like you have a firm grasp of the basics.



What is a fair price for lessons? Especially if it'll just be one hour a week? (They have a Sat. class that conflicts with my work schedule.)

according to the gracie's a TA should charge between 65.00 and 75.00 per month. Schools with a brown or black belt can charge 100 a month or more.


I'm fairly certain I'm going to get a high pressure sales pitch following my observation Thursday...which I can sympathize with, it's what we call the "winter lull" around here when everyone seems to be scrambling for students. I intend to tell the guy that I need to talk things over with my wife, since I had NO idea what the price would be (sort of a dig at his evasiveness on the phone).

that's fair. Don't let them rush you into anything.



This guy is NOT the only grappling game in my area. There's another guy (small circle jujitsu...so I'm certain he came up via seminars too) who's students win tournaments worldwide teaching the next town over. But, if this guy might be teaching such a well-organized system so close to me...well...I'm interested.



small circle is through wally jay and is not the same thing...

[JKDChick]

Oh, Royce isn't THAT much of a pimp. He'll give out blues a little more frequently, yeah, but I haven't yet seen him give out one that was totally UN-deserved, in my area anyway.

To guys anyway; sometimes it seems like being a female player either means you NEVER get promoted or "Oh look! She did an arm bar! Blue belt for you, sweetie!".

[SevenStar]

I've seen it. IMO, the guys deserved it, but royce didn't put them through any type of test or anything. He remembered them from previous seminars and watched them. the second day of his seminar is the day he hands out belts, and if he thought you looked deserving from what he'd seen, he gave you one.

[MoreMisfortune]

blue belts teaching?
only in america

im quite sure blue belts are not allowed to teach in here
as in, have their own place wiht their own class and their own students, that is
they are allowed to help with teaching on their teachers class though

a school run by a blue belt?
never seen it
sounds insane to me

[Radhnoti]

Thanks to all who answered. I'm checking it out tomorrow, I'll let you know my impressions.

[red5angel]

more misfortune, I think this is a modern thing, not just a national thing. Since it's become so easy to travel and transmit data to out of the way locations, alot of people who want to see their organization grow, for better or worse, will allow some people to teach that they wouldn't normally. For example, my instructor for capoeira was rushed through his training and he's required to go to a couple of batizados a year to get checked out, and is barely at the rank to teach. Because of that, a student from another school who is qualified to teach came up for university here, and now he is technically teaching the class.
It's not necesarily a bad thing in my opinion, since I would never see capoeira in minnesota otherwise. OF course you have to make sure your instructor is legite and all that but beyond that.....

[JKDChick]

You guys do realise that while a blue belt is a very low rank in most arts, a BJJ blue is going to have 3-5 years of experience, training and compeitions, behind them? A BJJ black belt should take 10-15 years and there's no guarantee you're going to get one.

There is a serious problem beginning with self-promoted BJJ people claiming higher rank than they deserve (one guy got on a plane in Brazil a Brown and landed in CA as a black belt -- apparently did alot of training in mid-flight, I'd guess), but the truth is still that a BJJ blue in a respectable lineage will have the MORE training time than your average BLACK BELT in most other arts.

That's why BJJ McDojo's are so offensive, and must be mercilously stamped out. They water down what the rankings mean in BJJ.

[SevenStar]

yeas and no. It's aptitude dependent. I've known guys who have gotten their blue in two years of training. Without question though, a blue belt will definitely have a good handle on the basics, and will awesome with his positioning and escapes. I agree with everything else you said, however.

[red5angel]

You guys do realise that while a blue belt is a very low rank in most arts, a BJJ blue is going to have 3-5 years of experience, training and compeitions, behind them? A BJJ black belt should take 10-15 years and there's no guarantee you're going to get one.

There is a serious problem beginning with self-promoted BJJ people claiming higher rank than they deserve (one guy got on a plane in Brazil a Brown and landed in CA as a black belt -- apparently did alot of training in mid-flight, I'd guess), but the truth is still that a BJJ blue in a respectable lineage will have the MORE training time than your average BLACK BELT in most other arts.

That's why BJJ McDojo's are so offensive, and must be mercilously stamped out. They water down what the rankings mean in BJJ.


Hey imagine that, brazillian jujitsu having the same types of failings as all the other martial arts out there. Who'd a thunk?

[JKDChick]

yeas and no. It's aptitude dependent. I've known guys who have gotten their blue in two years of training. Without question though, a blue belt will definitely have a good handle on the basics, and will awesome with his positioning and escapes. I agree with everything else you said, however.

The saving grace of being in such a "thug" style is the instant anyone lets the word out they got their blue in 2 years or less, it's like they have a target painted on their gi.

EVERYONE'S suddenly gunning for them.

[JKDChick]

Hey imagine that, brazillian jujitsu having the same types of failings as all the other martial arts out there. Who'd a thunk?

What a useful, mature response. Thank you so much for your insight. Brilliant and eloquent, as usual.

Point of fact, while the whole creeping McDojo phenomemon has begun to inflitrate BJJ and grappling in the last ten years or so, that's still about a century less bull**** time than ... oh, almost EVERY OTHER ART.

[red5angel]

useful mature response, you mean like this?


The saving grace of being in such a "thug" style is the instant anyone lets the word out they got their blue in 2 years or less, it's like they have a target painted on their gi.

EVERYONE'S suddenly gunning for them.

get over it. BJJ is much like any other art, it's slowly sinking into the same pitfalls all other arts are and as "thug" as retards like you would like to think you are, it ain't happening. Most BJJ people are just like all the other martial artist out there, trying to hard to be something they're not.



Point of fact, while the whole creeping McDojo phenomemon has begun to inflitrate BJJ and grappling in the last ten years or so, that's still about a century less bull**** time than ... oh, almost EVERY OTHER ART.


BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAA!!!! Ok JKDChick, here's when you get to man-up sister, you wanna talk about Fact and you wanna start out a claim like that with "Point of fact..." then let's see it. I want you're facts on how this was determined.....good luck.

[JKDChick]

useful mature response, you mean like this?

Err ... did you have a point there? There is actually no correlation between you acting like an immature dip**** and the internal culture of BJJ.

Getting a hard time over been quickly promoted is in the best interests of BJJ as a martial art and a sport, so, actually it IS both useful and mature. Also, fun.


get over it. BJJ is much like any other art, it's slowly sinking into the same pitfalls all other arts are and as "thug" as retards like you would like to think you are, it ain't happening.

Yes? Your evidence of this? Based on your enormously accurate, logical, and critically engaged thinking up till now, I see no reason to have any respect for anything you say.

On a personal note, I think of myself as a creampuff, actually.


Most BJJ people are just like all the other martial artist out there, trying to hard to be something they're not.

You say that like it's: significant, not been said 100 000 times before or not true in base for like, oh, all of human endeavour.

In my case, it does happen to be true, since I'm trying to be a very good fighter and have acheived -- as I just said -- the status of creampuff.


BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAA!!!! Ok JKDChick, here's when you get to man-up sister, you wanna talk about Fact and you wanna start out a claim like that with "Point of fact..." then let's see it. I want you're facts on how this was determined.....good luck.

The existence and proliferation of belt factory McDojo's in TKD, Karate, and "kung fu" for at least 50 years?

[red5angel]

Err ... did you have a point there? There is actually no correlation between you acting like an immature dip**** and the internal culture of BJJ.

I'm not in the mood to give you a reading comprehension lesson, so figure it out for yourself.


Getting a hard time over been quickly promoted is in the best interests of BJJ as a martial art and a sport, so, actually it IS both useful and mature. Also, fun.[QUOTE]

Yes, we're all so lucky BJJ is so self correcting, it's it's thugz background we have to thank.


[QUOTE]Yes? Your evidence of this? Based on your enormously accurate, logical, and critically engaged thinking up till now, I see no reason to have any respect for anything you say.

I'm not going to let you get away with this logic, either you back your line of thinking up with your favorite words - truth and fact - or you apologize for making that sh!t up for the benefit of painting BJJ in a light it doesn't have. Either that or we'll know exactly where you stand on this whole "truth or fact" bullsh!t little girl.



You say that like it's: significant, not been said 100 000 times before or not true in base for like, oh, all of human endeavour.

Because you say it like say it like BJJ has something other arts do not or that by some other virtue it's that much different then anything else out there. the problem young one is that you put on airs that BJJ has something other arts do not and fight so hard to see that it's recognized a such, making statements that in truth are baseless. You've just been so thoroughly indoctrinated it's become hard to sift fact from opinion.


In my case, it does happen to be true, since I'm trying to be a very good fighter and have acheived -- as I just said -- the status of creampuff.

Congratulations but I'm not buying your false humility so knock it off.



The existence and proliferation of belt factory McDojo's in TKD, Karate, and "kung fu" for at least 50 years?


Oh I see, I must have missed where a difference of 40 years is roughly equivalent to a "about a century less bull**** time ", I guess the "Facts" aren't that important as long as your just exaggerating.


Regardless, its following the very same progress that ALL martial arts follow, that's just the way it is sister.

[Radhnoti]

Ok, I went in last Thursday to check the class out. The first thing I saw ALMOST ran me outta there. The instructor was wearing a camoflage belt with a black (jujitsu style) gi. Everyone else was wearing TKD gi, which is understandable as the class is a sort of add on to their curriculum...following their normal classes. Watched the warm-ups, which were pretty dynamic and they went straight into various lessons from there. The warm-ups fed into the lessons pretty well, "shrimping" and "reverse shrimping". The instructor was never at a loss for words or what should be worked upon. His attention to detail was good. A move wherein I would have simply attempted a mount was dismissed by him as too easy to escape...better to vine your legs around your opponent's legs THEN attempt the mount it turns out. He was quite specific about where the students heads should be to maximize control on another lesson. They discussed and practiced scissor moves from a half-guard sort of position. The last 10 minutes or so were full on rolling with anyone not too tired to refuse.

Strange coincidence, I know the instructor. He was a thin, intense high schooler at my old school...my other choice for ground fighting in the area. I can remember kidding around with him about girls and tapping him out a million times. Now he's a stockier, much more muscular fellow and a lot more mellow. I asked if he'd had a falling out with our old Sensei when he came over (smiling since he remembered me) and he said that they were still quite close. Here's the update on the old school:
The old instructor is fighting Dan "The Beast" Sevren of UFC fame in less than a week in a exhibition-type fight. Since I left he won the ISJA (international sports jujitsu assoc.) world championship...at least once. He was runner up the year I studied there. He also fought on the pancrase(sp?) circuit and his flyer now proclaims him to be a "pancrase veteren" with a fight record of 2 wins (Jason Delucia and Ryushi Yanagisawa), 1 draw (Kengo Watanabe) and a loss (Ian Freeman) .
Here's a listing of his background I found online:
Stines, Bob
background: Sport Jujitsu 2nd dan, Shorinjiryu karate 5th dan, judo 3rd dan
title:
I.S.J.A. Sport Jujitsu champion
U.S. Super Heavyweight Sport Jujitsu Full Contact champion
5 times National jiu jitsu champion
5 times Kentucky State karate champion
3 times Jiu Jitsu Team member silver medalist
3 times U.S.A. Jiu Jitsu Team member silver medalist
debut: 4/18/1999-Yokohama Culture Gymnasium-vs Kengo Watanabe-Pankration match-draw
career: Danger Zone

And here is a link to a (apparently still being built) website, the BJJ guy is listed as the only other instructor:
http://www.theacademyofmartialarts.net/stines.htm

The BJJ guy is still, apparently, studying with the old instructor, just adding BJJ to his list of accomplishments. He implied that the camo belt was sort of an inside joke with the students, stating, "Obviously this is not my BJJ belt, it's blue." He said that although he MIGHT allow a bit more stand-up stuff than your typical BJJ school, he's very serious about keeping the material he got from the Gracie seminars (and senior belts in Lexington) seperate from other stuff he's got when he teaches. He's got plans in action now to attend Carlos Gracies school for a two week retreat this summer. Price...not so great, though I wasn't discussing it with the BJJ guy, it was the TKD head instructor. I explained that I'd NEVER be there any night except the hour on Thursday, they have a 2 to 3 hour class on Sat. but I'm ALWAYS working then. Regularly the class is $79, and the instructor said he'd drop it down to $55...plus a start up package where I sign up with some collection service and buy a gi. When I came out of THAT meeting, I mentioned the price to the BJJ guy and he rolled his eyes...saying, "Just come back next Thurs. and we'll work out something better than that." When I attended the Stines school some 7 years ago the prices were in the 30-40 dollar range, and I've heard they are about the same since they dropped the old dojo and meet in a community center now.

Hmmm, that's all I'm recalling right now, any opinions?

[SevenStar]

sounds like a decent place. However, sport jujutsu is NOT the same thing as BJJ. Are there two different guys? sport jujutsu is I guess more akin to san shou - you can strike and throw, but in sjj, groundwork is also allowed. One of the posters on kfm - Oso - used to be on a sjj team.

[SevenStar]

I'm not going to let you get away with this logic, either you back your line of thinking up with your favorite words - truth and fact - or you apologize for making that sh!t up for the benefit of painting BJJ in a light it doesn't have. Either that or we'll know exactly where you stand on this whole "truth or fact" bullsh!t little girl.


she's not completely exaggerating there... within the bjj community, anyone of advanced rank will have a target on them within class, as promotion is based on it. Typically, a person will not even be considered for the next belt unless they can keep up with the guys a rank above them all of the time and tap them at least 25% of the time. So, for this reason, there's pressure on you to be able to keep up with the guys above you. Sometimes, things like this can carry over into competitions as well. When people know you are good, they will want to beat you. It keeps things competitve.

[red5angel]

"not completely exaggerating" doesn't satisfy me. JKDChick has constantly and consistantly thrown out "truth and fact" as her ally and defense. I wasn't specifically targeting the idea that BJJ guys don't take care of their own, I'm just pointing out that this claim is made by all martial arts at some point or another. In theory there was a time in China when if you made a claim to be a master at something, someone came along to make sure you were telling the truth. Her numbers are also off by a pretty wide margin as well.

[JKDChick]

"not completely exaggerating" doesn't satisfy me. JKDChick has constantly and consistantly thrown out "truth and fact" as her ally and defense. .

The response to this would there fore be for you to provide evidence that anything I've said isn't true. Since you don't, all the while proclaiming that it would be easy to do, I have to assume you CAN'T.

So, what exactly about BJJ am I making up? You have WHAT experience with the art? Could you actually try answering a question for once?


Because you say it like say it like BJJ has something other arts do not or that by some other virtue it's that much different then anything else out there.

Never said it; don't think it.

BJJ is a great grappling art and probably the best thing to add to a solid stand-up art to make a well-rounded fighter. It's also fun. So is Judo and all the JJJ I've taken. Hell, so was TKD.

[red5angel]

The response to this would there fore be for you to provide evidence that anything I've said isn't true. Since you don't, all the while proclaiming that it would be easy to do, I have to assume you CAN'T.

Are you even following this thread at all? Or are you trying to divert your error by referencing other threads? I'm not that easily distracted so let's just stick to the subject at hand shall we?


So, what exactly about BJJ am I making up? You have WHAT experience with the art? Could you actually try answering a question for once?

Again, are you paying attention to this thread. Instead of trying to use obfuscation to try to cover up your erros, why don't you just reply directly to my queries?




BJJ is a great grappling art and probably the best thing to add to a solid stand-up art to make a well-rounded fighter. It's also fun. So is Judo and all the JJJ I've taken. Hell, so was TKD.

I don't remember any of this coming into contention here JKDChick. You need to come down from propaganda mode and re-read my post please.

[Radhnoti]

SS - "However, sport jujutsu is NOT the same thing as BJJ. Are there two different guys?"

The BJJ guy is listed on the sport jujitsu/pankration guy's site as an assistant instructor. The BJJ guy has studied with him for...I'd guess 10 years or so now and he's been studying BJJ (by his own account) for somewhere around 3 years.

Would experience with other grappling arts bleed over and hurt someone attempting to teach BJJ?

[SevenStar]

Would experience with other grappling arts bleed over and hurt someone attempting to teach BJJ?

depends on what the art is - wrestling, for example. They are taught to not be on their back - bjj guys are perfectly at home on their backs. If the person is at the point where they are teaching though, they will be comfortable enough to teach proficiently, plus you will be able to learn what other experience they have to offer, so no, it shouldn't hurt anything.

[Merryprankster]

BJJ is much like any other art, it's slowly sinking into the same pitfalls all other arts are

Let's be clear that it isn't. The problem is that people are comparing apples and oranges when comparing, say, WC or CLF and BJJ. The appropriate model is boxing, wrestling, Judo, etc.

What I mean is that there will exist varying instructors of varying levels, but expert training will be available and easily found because of the sportive base. For instance, if I want to be a great Judoka, I know that world-class training can be found at the Olympic training center, SJSU and Morris' joint in NY.

Similarly, the Sunkist club in Arizona offers great wrestling (among other clubs). In BJJ you have similar goings on.

This is quite different from arts by which there is no universally accepted standard for measuring quality and ability.

JKDChick, you've got the time in grade stuff a bit out of whack, IMO.

I received my Blue belt after 8 months. I got my purple about a year and half after that. While fairly quick, this is not uncommon. 10-15 years to get a black belt is ludicrous and demonstrates maybe a twice a week player with moderate motivation and retention capabilities.

[red5angel]

MP, I'm not saying that BJJ is on the way to becoming a complete joke. What I'm saying is that it's "Relatively" new to the scene but is beginning to have the same sorts of problems other arts have had, in that you have more and more fakers and fibbers and wanna be instructors. True because of it's sportive nature there will be a slice of it that is consistant and well monitored and controlled, but that doesn't mean it's not going to experience on the trials and tribulations other arts have.

[Merryprankster]

True because of it's sportive nature there will be a slice of it that is consistant and well monitored and controlled, but that doesn't mean it's not going to experience on the trials and tribulations other arts have.

I disagree. You are going to have trials and tribulations ONLY to the extent that similar sportive arts do.

We won't have them to the extent that, say, Wing Chun does, because the criteria for excellence are obvious and agreed upon. An olympic Judoka is a badass no matter where you do Judo or what your emphasis is, etc.

This is not to say that you are not correct in that BJJ is having to deal with fakes and retards. :D

[red5angel]

This is not to say that you are not correct in that BJJ is having to deal with fakes and retards.

I think that's more my point then anything else. JKDchick came off as a little more holier then thou, then I thought she should be and was just pointing out that BJJ has it's ills just like other martial arts.

But really lt's just get down to the meat of this discussion MP - You're wrong..I"m right...you suck... I'm cool....Come to my school and I wil destroy you.


there, now we can just skip the foreplay

[Merryprankster]

there, now we can just skip the foreplay

We you me? Or we you her?

Either way, can I get pictures?

[red5angel]

I gotta website full of picture man, you just gotta send me your credit card info ;)


www.reddoinjamesmom.com :D :D

[Merryprankster]

I clicked on the link provided, but it just took me to a website full of vid clips of some guy who can't get it up, while surrounded by hot womens touching themselves.

Is this some new, sick type of minnesota porn?

[red5angel]

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAA


HAAYIIIIIAAAAAAAA!!!!!!! :mad: