Eagle Claw - claw technique

[soulguy2k]

Hi,

I'm german Kung Fu student and I've got a question concerning the claw-technique of the Eagle Claw Kung Fu. I know that the Eagle Clw style is a traditional northern fist, but the "Kung Fu Forum"-Guys sent me in here, because they had no exact informations for me.

I'm very interested in the history of Kung Fu and that's why I oftern look around on homepages of different Kung Fu styles. When I finally found Eagle Claw Homepages (Lily Lau Eagle Claw Kung Fu (http://www.lilylaueagleclaw.com) and Leung Shum Eagle Claw Kung Fu (http://www.yingjowpai.net)) I was a trifle bemused, because on every picture this kind of claw-technique was used:

http://www.felixdjdonb.privat.t-online.de/Bilder/eagleclaw2.JPG

I only knew the Eagle Claw style from different Kung Fu movies and I never saw this kind of claw-technique associated with the Eagle Claw before. Whenever the Eagle Claw technique was mentioned for example in a movie, the actor always used this kind of claw technique::

http://www.felixdjdonb.privat.t-online.de/Bilder/eagleclaw1.JPG

Unfortunatly I'm not a student of the Eagle Claw Kung Fu and there is not even an Eagle Claw Skool in Germany. So I thought, that you perhaps could help me out. Can somebody tell me, where those different claw techniques come from, what their meaning is and when they are to be used?

Thank you previously.

Kind regards

[WinterPalm]

I don't know much about Eagle Claw but the Five Animal forms that my Sifu does have the second claw in your post as the Crane hand formation. Whereas in the Black Tiger Vs. Crane form, the Crane is the beak formation. I think it really comes down to the lineage and the ideology behind what the creators or subsequent practioners and Sifu were trying to express.

[David Jamieson]

claw use is a little higher on the old totem pole of techs.

more often than not, they prove to be difficult to pull off in alive training.
In compliant partner drills they work all day long, but in reality, well, claws are probably not the bestthing to pull out of your tool box if you haven't conditioned the heck out ofthe hands you intend to use them with. And this literally takes years.

having said that, it is very difficult to put into verbiage any sort of instruction that will definitively help you to understand how to do kungfu and used advanced hand forms correctly. Better to be shown.

If you are in Germany, you probably have access to Hung Gar? Yes? If so, there are many Tiger claw techniques which amount to more or less the same.

Claws are claws, they spread, the grab, they sink in, they pull back or remain latched on. that is the essence of any claw type usage in kungfu. The same as it is in the animal world. Tearing, ripping, piercing, shredding.

the lily lau and Leung Shum techs are correct ying jao pai type stuff. as is the other. using less of the hand denotes that you are either attacking a smaller target such as the throat or maybe the fat on someones back around their kidney area or it can also be just a trait of the style it is being used in.

Ultimately, tere really isn't any hard and fast way to do things in kungfu, more important that what works, works. It all melds into one thing ultimately anyway if you stick with it. Very hard to tell what style a fighter comes from, easier to see it in a form performer.

But form performance and fight are two entirely different things. Just for the record I've seen the three finger variation of the eagle claw as well.

[jmd161]

I don't know much about Eagle Claw but the Five Animal forms that my Sifu does have the second claw in your post as the Crane hand formation. Whereas in the Black Tiger Vs. Crane form, the Crane is the beak formation. I think it really comes down to the lineage and the ideology behind what the creators or subsequent practioners and Sifu were trying to express.


Hmmmm

That's very interesting ,i've never seen the second used as a crane technique ,although i have seen it used as a eagle claw technique to grasp the wrist and such.

jeff:)

[Three Harmonies]

Kung Lek has the right idea. Usually if only a couple of fingers are used it is geared towards the throat/groin areas. When grabbing the your opponents arm or other appendage then it is preferable to use all fingers together.
To make the "proper" Eagle Claw:
Keep all 4 fingers together and bend them in at the second knuckle. You should be able to fit one finger (from your other hand obviously) in the curl.
The thumb is the toughest part. It should be almost vertical with the hand (pointing towards the other four finger tips), but this is ****ed near impossible!
You should be able to fit two finger widths in the space between your finger tips and your thumb tip.
If doing this right your palm should be slightly concave, but **** strong.
Kung Lek is also correct in that these techniques are pretty impossible in a real fight. I have learned Eagle Claw with a good friend for about 5 years now, and these techniques are fun and interesting, but in real life...... :o
Lets put it this way.... though he has many years more experience than myself, he comes to my Mantis classes to learn how to fight!
Leung Shum seems to be the most experienced in the U.S. if not the world (I have heard Eagle Claw is all but dead in China!). Lily Lau I have met before, and besides her off putting (this is me being nice BTW :rolleyes: ) attitude, her Eagle Claw students seemed to have a HEAVY wushu influence. Not sure if this is how she learned, or if she has added this to gain students. In all fairness I did not touch hands with her so I have no clue of her true talent, just my observation.
Check out Leung Shum's book on Eagle Claw as it is the best (only????) source on Ying Jow Pai in English. Also check the Northern Forum as I know a few Eagle Clawists roam there!
Hope this has helped guys.
Cheers
Jake Burroughs :D
three_harmonies@hotmail.com
505-385-2987
www.threeharmonies.com

[soulguy2k]

Ok, thank you very much for all informations. I'll keep on investigating on that term. If I get any news, I'll fresh up this threat.

That what an UK-Eagle-Claw master said in the northern forum:


The three finger eagle claw is used in Hsing Yi.

It is also used in southern eagle claw, I have documentation and photo's of Golden eagle style from Taiwan that uses three fingers.

starchser is correct in the his explanation of the hand shaped claw, it is predominantly Northern eagle claw that uses that uses that hand shape.

Lung Ying or dragon style is a little different, the three fingers are used but the last two are not folded down so much and looks more like an extended tiger claw.

[Shaolinlueb]

even though hk is home of lau family now. if you ask a southerner in china to show you eagle calw they will show you the 2nd claw. a couple people from fujian i know do the same. its more of a southerner/northerner thing. you notice in the movies of shaw (mainly made from hk) show the 2nd eagle claw alot. its used for a different application too.

[David Jamieson]

Hey Jeff, Cameron sifu denotes that hand form as Crane.

It does seem odd, but in context to how he uses it in his curriculum, It's Crane.

Cameron sifu does meld quite a few things together in his overall stuff. At least from what I remember.

[X-Warrior]

I've actually seen more of the first type of grab used a lot by eagle stylist, but did see the second one too. I think it's just a matter of what school and which movies you watch. I am not sure if the different kind of grabs originate from different branch of the art, some styles might use both, I wouldn't be surprised about that. Many masters integrate techniques from other styles to make their system 'more complete'.

-X-

[David Jamieson]

Johnny Tsai uses the second as his eagle claw hand form.

But, I don't know what his primary style is.
He does have some recognition in the states though.

[jmd161]

Hey Jeff, Cameron sifu denotes that hand form as Crane.

It does seem odd, but in context to how he uses it in his curriculum, It's Crane.

Cameron sifu does meld quite a few things together in his overall stuff. At least from what I remember.

Ahhh ok!

jeff:)

[Ben Gash]

[QOUTE]more often than not, they prove to be difficult to pull off in alive training.
In compliant partner drills they work all day long, but in reality, well, claws are probably not the bestthing to pull out of your tool box if you haven't conditioned the heck out ofthe hands you intend to use them with. And this literally takes years.[/QUOTE]
Not really true in my experience,claws work perfectly well in live situations , and without much finger conditioning. Tendon strength is more important then bone density and skin condition, as the aim is to tear soft tissue, and tendon strength is developed by correct form training (if you play guitar, legato practice gives you a fantastic left hand claw ;) ). As with most kung fu techniques, it's reliant on your skills at entry and bridgeing though. It certainly gives you that extra bit of control for fast Chin Na applications.

Kung Lek has the right idea. Usually if only a couple of fingers are used it is geared towards the throat/groin areas. When grabbing the your opponents arm or other appendage then it is preferable to use all fingers together.
To make the "proper" Eagle Claw:
Again, not really true. If you think of claw number 2 as a clenched fist with two fingers extended, then it's very good for siezing and manipulation, and indeed, allows for pressure point pinches not possible with the full claw. If you're trying to sieze with a fully formed claw of any description then you've missed some pretty fundamental points (and/or you've seen too many movies). The idea is to make contact and form the claw as you sieze.

[David Jamieson]

Ben, you must have the luxury of sparring real slow ass people then. :p

Gear up, go full blast and see how many claws you can pull off on a peer or someone better than you. I personally think you'll change your view. It's what changed mine.

They are definitely on the list of more advanced techniques and have no where near the percentages of simple palms and fists.

[hasayfu]

Having played both Hung Gar and Xing-I I'm familiar with both types of grabs.

Kung Lek is right that this is higher on the totem pole then strikes or throws. That said, I'm with Ben. These things can be used with the proper bridging. One key aspect about grabbing is that it flows from other techniques. You can't just try to grab someone doing a punch (like most app drills start) but imagine some throwing a real hard block or trying to push you. In these cases, the opponent is usually pretty committed in a single direction. This is the prime requirement for executing a grab.

As for the different hand positions, HG uses the first type of grab with the last three (and really the middle two) fingers for the grab power. The index finger is used more as a fulcrum. XI uses the the second type of grab with the curled fingers acting as a clamp point. This gives the grab a vice like action on top of the general grab. Getting into position however is much harder and I personally find there are more ways for the opponent to escape this grip if not done correctly.

[Starchaser107]

Kung Lek
I'm sorry but that's untrue.
Clawing Techniques especially in the system I practice are for close quarter grappling. Are you saying that grappling is impossible then?, I don't really get what you're aiming at. Whenever someone does BJJ or some other form of submission fighting they are grabbing..seizing and controlling..sound farmiliar?
The Hand formations do have a good use, and I've seen some competent people pull them off many a time, I've pulled them off at times. In fighting nothing is 100% guaranteed to work.

[David Jamieson]

dudes, I believe I did say in my earlier post:


Claws are claws, they spread, the grab, they sink in, they pull back or remain latched on. that is the essence of any claw type usage in kungfu. The same as it is in the animal world. Tearing, ripping, piercing, shredding.

the lily lau and Leung Shum techs are correct ying jao pai type stuff. as is the other. using less of the hand denotes that you are either attacking a smaller target such as the throat or maybe the fat on someones back around their kidney area or it can also be just a trait of the style it is being used in.


I didn't say they are impossible, in fact, I agree that once the bridge is crossed and you are actually standing on teh other side, you can get them in, however, it takes a lot of conditioning and hand strength to actually make them effective.

Now don't make me requote my own stuff again or I'll Craw you with the Craw THE CRAW!!!!! :p

[Starchaser107]

yowwch

stop that!

my bad :)

[Ben Gash]

KL, I've done it full speed BAREHAND with opponents wanting to hurt me. You finish looking like Bruce Lee at the end of ETD, but you learn a lot about claws.

[ngokfei]

all I can say is what's your experience in sparring/fighting an eagle claw stylist.

Hey I'll toot my horn here,

3 harmonies;

I know who your talking about and his skill is really low level. Just a forms guy. My teachers school is like many of the older schools. Those who want to fight do so. Those who want pretty forms, your welcome to them (we've got over 75).

I'd say in the over 2000+ students my teacher has instructed, less than 100 were efficient fighters. and of the cream I'd have to say 20 (and I'm lucky to consider myself one of them :D ) Now don't ask me to do a split :p


fighting is fighting, anything goes.
To Claw or not to Claw :confused:

Just kick him in the nuts :eek:

[David Jamieson]

Just kick him in the nuts

just grazing the ball sack will more often than not lead to a break in the sparring time for recuperation. :p No need to drive in hard...unless you mean it. hahaha

[WanderingMonk]

I'd say in the over 2000+ students my teacher has instructed, less than 100 were efficient fighters. and of the cream I'd have to say 20

5 % students became efficient fighter
1 % student became great
that is not an encouraging statistic.

how many out of 2,000+ were serious students to begin with?

[ngokfei]

just like a pyramid, alot of base with a focused point.

Kind of like the chart of the well balanced diet

1st Sifu shums school has been open since 1974 and was for many years the largest KF school in NYC.

now out of the 2,000 students lets say only about 50 percent stayed past 6 months. Kind of like taebo :D

Business before pleasure.. :p

Today we are lucky that their exists gyms totally geared towards combat. The 80's and early 90's was not condusive for this environment.
those serious students who liked fighting had to either stay after class (9pm on a week night) or just do it whenever we could. it was worth it because our teacher would brushoff the repetitive form teaching to come over and give us his time.

Welcome to the UFC age. :cool: - just got in on the tail end of San Shou :mad:

In todays world of fly by night students, what constitutes serious.

My general students get a strong balanced curiculum. Kind of like a highschool education. Afte that I customize their program, for those who want it.

Those wanting more will have to pay the $$. I have had my fill of deadbeat students. Oh sifu I can't pay this month but teach me some grappling, all the time they are strutting around in a new pair of sneakers on their feet :mad:

I'm not a fight manager so I don't see the excitement to train fighters. They only leave you with the bag (empty that is).

My focus is whether to go to hawalli or australia for vacation ;)

[Dao]

From my experience with the style and from what I see with the pictures, the first hand form is used and I wouldn't use the second one. The first one as said before can be used for grappling situations when needed and the applications of Chin Na techniques is very helpful. Also since the claw has the fingers tightly bound together, it allows for less injury if the hand was kicked at by the opponent. The second claw might have some Chin Na applications, but I see too many instances where if you miss with that claw that you will then be open for injury to that hand from a punch or a kick. Since the fingers are outstretched, it would make it a lot easier for the fingers to be broken and to make that hand almost useless in the rest of the fight.
I'm not sure how other Eagle Claw styles use the claw, but for us it can be quite useful if you know how to use it.

[Ben Gash]

Dao, with any claw technique you should make contact with a palm and then pull into the claw. If you try lashing out with a formed claw shape you just hurt your fingers, and your own finger tips impede the grab (see my earlier post).
What kind of range are you trying to do claws from if people are kicking you in the hands :confused: You can't really dis a handform that is present in several styles across Asia and has been for a couple of hundred years. As with all techniques it works perfectly well if you know how and when to use it.

[shuaichiao]

5 % students became efficient fighter
1 % student became great
that is not an encouraging statistic.

I think thats probably common in American kung fu schools. So many people think kung fu is just for show so it's mostly people who like forms or people that want realy fancy fantasy techniques that sign up. Even inside kung fu circles alot of people think northern styles are for show and southern stryles are for fighting. Most people who sign up for eagle claw either just want the fancy forms with the fan zi mixed in or the want to become cum na experts without mastering basic fighting first. Useing cum na with or without the eagle claw is tough for someone with little fighting experience. It takes a high level of timing as well as alot of experience to recognize the right and wrong opportunities to apply cum na. Most people who try it find that it's not as simple as just learning the techniques and being able to apply them and only a small percent of them are willing to go through the training and develop the skills they need to make the cum na work. If a school has few or no other good fighters to train with or against that will limit the development of the fighters it does get.

[Three Harmonies]

Ngok Fei has been sending me very pleasent PM's lately, and he seems to be a bit confused. I never said I was any kind of authority on Eagle Claw (nor anything to be honest). I offered my experiences with Eagle Claw, and while I admit they are limited, I also again admit that one would have to be pretty amazing to really pull off claw techniques as I understand them! I have seen Ealge Claw from both major families in this country, and I have yet to see anyone that can really use it.
Now Ngok Fei is ranting and raving that he is the next best fighter on earth, which is fine. I hope with spending all the time and money he has that he can use the technique. Unfortunatley all that time and money has yet to teach him any kind of respect and/or maturity!
I apologize to anyone if they misinterpreted my experiences (which I was just sharing for this thread), as an attempt to state an absolute authority on Eagle Claw.

Cheers
Jake

[ngokfei]

well 3 harmonies if you want to bring PM's to light then by all means.

My concern was with you referencing your limited experiences as something meaningful.

All I said was that you should seek out individuals who are atleast considered by their teachers as proficient in the usage of the "eagle Claw" methods.

You gave reference to a Mr. Wilson who is my "junior" and is not a "certified instructor". My teacher has no control of individuals who want to teach their limited knowledge.

My skills are just that Mine. I'm by far no means the best exponent of the style but do hold a position of proficiency. "Man would like to be on the Ultimate Fighter show :D

Just keep your ideas of fortune cookie respect stuff to yourself. You opened up the box by making such generalized statements about something you have very little knowledge or experience in. :rolleyes:

As that is that lets keep on with the usage of the Claw in Combat. :)

[Starchaser107]

Must be the predatory nature of the animal...

everytime an eagle claw thread pops up, it's bound to get volatile :p

[Shaolinlueb]

well SC. maybe we should start saying how we study under grand master lueng lee fu and how ours "isnt real eagle claw" yet my sifu is fully capable in using chin na in events and so arent my sihings. and im sure steven chin is too. oh lets jsut forget about how he turns out excellent fighters and forms people. :rolleyes:

eagle claw chin na is very effective and takes lots of timing. its sad people try using it without having experience fighting and look like idiots and hurt the image. and when ngok fie posted the pyramid scheme, sounds about right.

[Starchaser107]

Word to my big fat talons! :cool:

[Dao]

Dao, with any claw technique you should make contact with a palm and then pull into the claw. If you try lashing out with a formed claw shape you just hurt your fingers, and your own finger tips impede the grab (see my earlier post).
What kind of range are you trying to do claws from if people are kicking you in the hands :confused: You can't really dis a handform that is present in several styles across Asia and has been for a couple of hundred years. As with all techniques it works perfectly well if you know how and when to use it.

I'm saying that the hand form that has the extended fingers risks more injury than the one that doesn't. You are right about claw moves lashing out, but if you get in a real grappling battle it would be more likely that the extended finger claw would be easier to grab the fingers and put the practitioner in a not quite so fun position. Truth is most likely the claw won't be kicked as you seemed confused by that, but it is easier to hurt an extended finger than a clentched in one. So I guess I'm saying the first one would be safer and more practical to use than the latter claw.

[Three Harmonies]

NF
Wow. Your testosterone is through the roof! I was offering my experiences yes. Limited...okay, if you say so. I am not as qualified as you by all means. I have touched hands with several of your "seniors" outside of Mr. Wilson, as well as some of Lily Laus folks. I stated my experiences, and never claimed them too be anything more.
As for Mr. Wilson not being "certified".... I am not sure if he has a piece of paper stating that he is allowed to teach (and that means what......). But I have spoken with Leung Shum Laoshi (your teacher) and he has stated Mr. Wilson has his full permisson and greatest encouragements to teach. Your tone is not only disrespectful towards me (which is fine), but also towards your teacher (which I do not find okay)!
Are you that insecure that you need to jump the gun to prove you are bigger/longer??? I was not trying to give a 110% for sure, set in concrete answer to anything. I was mearly stating my limited experiences, and you feel the need to jump down my throat in a rather rude manner.
Fortune cookie respect eh? Just respect in general. Not a huge surprise you ended up in Georgia!
I tell you what....please prove me wrong. I look forward to seeing some video footage of you utilizing claw techniques in a most realistic manner tonight when I check back in. Then I would be more than happy to qualify my statements, and then I could with confidence (because you are a SENIOR student, with a certificate) say that I have seen actual clawing techniques that work on the street!
Not sure I understand the Ultimate Fighter Show comment?? Did you try out?

Jake

[sean_stonehart]

Hey..... what's Georgia got to do with anything?? :eek: ;) :D

The few of us true born Georgians normally have manners that remain trried & true! :D

[Three Harmonies]

My apologies. :o Very true I have met more nice folks than *******s from Georgia!

When we meet someday, first round is on me! ;)
Cheers
Jake

[sean_stonehart]

My apologies. :o Very true I have met more nice folks than *******s from Georgia!

When we meet someday, first round is on me! ;)
Cheers
Jake

Jake you're on!

[ngokfei]

3 harmoniis

1. You do what you do
2. I respect those who respect others
3. by the way I'm not certified :p , don't need the headache :D
4. and not to worry, so as nothing gets mistaken, I've sent my Sifu copies of OUR Posts and PM and will let him decide what you meant.
5. Disrepsecting my Sifu in what terms, call him up and ask him.
6. Not a video kind of guy, just come down and I'll show you in person :cool:

oh by the way I'm from NYC - so that makes me a Yankee!! :p

lets just leave it at that :rolleyes: If you want to discuss further hears my phone number: 770-385-8127

my appologies to all members, didn't mean to sidtrack the thread.

[Three Harmonies]

Really dude, relax. You have really taken this a bit too far. Like I mentioned ten times over, I was just relating my experiences, LIMITED as they were, I related my findings. Does this mean ALL practictioners can't do it?? NO! Did I say for sure, 100% positive, garbage?? NO! I am happy to hear you say that you know how to use it! Seriously. Thats what I mean, relax a bit. If I disrespected you, my apologies. But I would watch where I point that finger with this kind of attitude.
In your opinion how many years of dedicated training does it take to obtain a level where one can utilize the claw effectively? Is it pure sparring that gets one to this level, or a combination of the claw training and qigong, etc.?
Sorry to hear you are "not a video kind of guy" :rolleyes: :rolleyes:. Do you know of any video we can all find on the web that demonstrates these techniques used realistically? I remember seeing a video of Ying Jow Pai sparring (one of your teachers videos I believe), and there were some good fights, but I would hesitate to say they were using Eagle Claw techniques nor theory. But I have only a basic understanding.
Peace pipe, educate me without me having to spend money to fly to you, to have you beat me down etc. ;) Can you explain in better detail verbally since you are not willing to share vids?
Thank you, Eric.
Jake :D

[Starchaser107]

Like I said earlier , there's quite a few techs in eagle claw that resemble what you might see in juijitsu or any such grappling arts. These arts don't necessarily train a claw , but they do train grappling consistently.
But don't take my word for it, ask one of the more "recognized" lineages. such as shum or law, I can only speak for what I know.

[One Finger Zen]

My teacher has always emphasised that hand forms are like screw driver heads- they can be interchanged with any other type of hand form [claw in this case].

Yang Jwing Ming uses the second claw as crane. Thats his decision i guess.

For all anyone knows, the claw could be used for ANY type of style, because as we all know the term style is an umbrella title to define different 'styles' of kungfu from others even though basically most kungfu has the same base, in my opinion, just some subtle differences.

Just my two pence :D :p

OFZ

[Starchaser107]

u know, I've always been familiar with crane beak and wing hand but , never a crane claw technique until recently with this thread.
learn something new everyday.

[WinterPalm]

I think many kung fu systems have a similar basis, or focus on what is basic, but I've studied wing chun and Black Tiger and the Black Tiger is way different in terms of basics. Those two systems are very different in my opinion.
But I do think that using a claw technique is not impossible, heck, anytime you are grabbing someone you are using a claw, in a way, I mean to use a tiger claw for what it is designed for, aside from grabbing a limb or other body part, is to tear flesh and that is somehting you can't really do in sparring. :)

[David Jamieson]

For the most part, 99.999% of humans cannot tear flesh with their hands.

to prove this to yourself, just see how much effort it takes to rip a chunk off a roast with your hand.

then think about how that applies in a dynamic situation like a fight.

[shuaichiao]

Yang Jwing Ming uses the second claw as crane. Thats his decision i guess.

Not really. It is in the forms he learned from his crane teacher and is a traditional part of that style.


u know, I've always been familiar with crane beak and wing hand but , never a crane claw technique until recently with this thread.
learn something new everyday.

The crane claw hand form is used very little in most surviving crane sets and is usualy only in the advanced sets. The ha say fu hung gar crane set uses that hand form repeatedly through out the form.

[Starchaser107]

thanks for the info

[Three Harmonies]

OKay I think we all need to differentiate between theory, and actual application. While I would not argue that any grab could be construed as a "clawing technique," one would have to ask why bother with the claw at all, just go into a grab. There must be some reason EC trains a specific clawing technique, yes? In Mantis we have "guo" which literally means hook (the infamous mantis claw or hooking hand everyone sees). Now I do not fight like that, but it represents a certain theory. Letting the hand stay relaxed enough to "listen" (Ting Jing) to the movements of ones opponents. Yet it is realxed enough to explode into action if needed. Does this make sense?
I agree also that "tearing of flesh" is just flat out unrealistic. You can grab in places such as inner thigh, and inner arm, but I doubt anyone hear can tear it off!? But then again Eric has not chimed in lately! A good claw (if applied properly) could possibly cause the trachea to collapse, but you could not rip it out (ala Swayze in Road House :rolleyes: ).
I was hoping since Eric has so much experience he would offer a bit more, but I guess all he had to offer was knocking others down. I wish some of the folks on this forum would grow up a bit, in that if they are going to get on and put people down they can offer some sort of education to the rest of us other than saying we are wrong! It is a shame, but what can one do?? :confused:

Jake

[WinterPalm]

I would say that the average person could fishhood someone and tear that lip up, or put their fingers in someone's nostrils or on their ears or eyes and tear it up. Although gruesome and not something I like to think about, I'm sure that this constitutes the tearing of flesh and that many people can do this. I would also assume that with years and years of hard training on the hands would allow someone to have much more strength that would possibly allow them to tear into skin and at least dislodge muscles or other anatomy. Pending this cannot happen, then the sheer pain of being grabbed in specific places with the intent that one is going to tear it off might be an advantage. But I am a beginner student and have not trained for very long and so I cannot say to the effectiveness of this. I also have no knowledge of how the eagle claw people train to do this but I believe that tearing flesh is a very possible thing with enough training. Many people of a good statistic cannot do a jumping inside crescent kick, but if they trained long enough it would be second nature.

[shuaichiao]

From what I know the eagle claw is a penetrating grip usualy done at pressure points so the grips add to the locks. If you grab around someones wrist no matter how hard you squeeze the skin, tendons, and even bones will move around inside your grip but if you penetrate into thier wrist you can get a grip that gives them very little wiggle room witch makes alot of counter techniques harder to do.

Tiger claw as I learned it is done with the palm pushed foward so that it is on an even plain with the fingers. The most common uses are a palm strike that claws away after striking and muscle grabbing cum na. If you lift into the grip with your palm you will find you get a much better grip with much more flesh in your hand and inflict much more pain.

The 5 fingered dragon claw that I'm used to is usualy done as a spread finger slap with a slight curl in the fingers that rakes as you follow through. It is often done in sideways motions in combination with leg sweeps for take downs. Dragon grabs rainbow or twin dragons fight for the pearl are the double dragon claw moves witch usualy trap between both palms and then grip and quickly twist for locks and breaks.

The 3 fingered crane claw I have only seen used to grab the throat, groin, and collar bone. The collar bone grip should also aim for the pressure point behind the collar bone. I can get a good grip on the 2 targets I've actually tried to grip with it but I find it just as effective to use all 5 fingers. Sometimes the folded 2 fingers feel like they're in the way in the crane claw. I'm not sure what the advantage of that hand form is suposed to be.

[Three Harmonies]

Winterpalm,
Do not sell yourself short, you bring up a couple very good points! In my hasty writing I forgot about fish hooking etc. Very good point and it is true!
I do not think one could literally rip off flesh, but you mention another great point about tearing the "meat" so to speak, internally! We have all had pulled / strained / torn muscles and can attest to how painful they really can be! Great post! :)
I also agree that most locks in the Eagle Claw system are associated with cavities, which makes them quite painful, and distracting.
Cheers
Jake :D

[Ben Gash]

Shuaichiao, as I was trying to explain to Dao, the two curled fingers are for use against larger structures, where the extended fingers hook and the curled fingers pinch (very nasty). Try and perform a wrist lock with good relaxed control, you may well find that your hand automatically assumes a similar position.
Dao, yet again I have to disagree. While with techniques like palms and spearhands bringing your fingers together focuses the energy delivery and means you're less likely to snag a finger on the way in, with the claw, where you are trying to exert strength through each finger, by bringing them togerther you are bringing them out of line and therefore weakening them. While it may well protect the middle and ring fingers, the index and little fingers are still exposed, and most finger manipulations work on them anyway (for just that reason). If you perform a grab and spread the fingers along the arm you have much more control as well.
Kung Lek, your analogy is flawed. When was the last time you tried to rip someone's gluteal muscle off? I can however quite easily pull apart a bit of chicken skin.

[shuaichiao]

I just noticed last night that Gordan Lu Used a three finger eagle claw in Kill Bill 2. He challenged Uma to test her tiger crane against his eagle claw and then in classic shaw brothers style demonstrated his three fingered eagle claw pose.

[YuanZhideDiZhen]

Having played both Hung Gar and Xing-I I'm familiar with both types of grabs.

Kung Lek is right that this is higher on the totem pole then strikes or throws. That said, I'm with Ben. These things can be used with the proper bridging. One key aspect about grabbing is that it flows from other techniques. You can't just try to grab someone doing a punch (like most app drills start) but imagine some throwing a real hard block or trying to push you. In these cases, the opponent is usually pretty committed in a single direction. This is the prime requirement for executing a grab.

As for the different hand positions, HG uses the first type of grab with the last three (and really the middle two) fingers for the grab power. The index finger is used more as a fulcrum. XI uses the the second type of grab with the curled fingers acting as a clamp point. This gives the grab a vice like action on top of the general grab. Getting into position however is much harder and I personally find there are more ways for the opponent to escape this grip if not done correctly.

So XI uses the 2nd claw like a reversing crane-beak strike that sinks into a grab and leverages on the closed fingers for the tear?

[YuanZhideDiZhen]

For the most part, 99.999% of humans cannot tear flesh with their hands.

to prove this to yourself, just see how much effort it takes to rip a chunk off a roast with your hand.

then think about how that applies in a dynamic situation like a fight.

kung luk:
indeed a roast is a difficult thing to mangle. mainly because its so hard to justify ruining a good piece of meat... :cool:

realistically, to train ripping takes a *Long* time on your own or just a few months with someone who can. most human flesh is softer and more pliable than a store-bought roast, thus making it more difficult to remove by handfuls. but human flesh also has the added advantages of behaving in predictable manners and not having as much resistance to shearing stress as animal meat.

three month course available for $8,000.00 usd.

[Three Harmonies]

In the Xing Yi I practice I have never been introduced to this hand posture (does not mean anything though). In Li Tianji's excellent book he makes mention of it though.

Cheers
Jake :D

PS If I throw in another $10,000 can you teach me how to fly too? ;)

[David Jamieson]

pfft, ben, chicken? you're talking out your ass. LOL

do you guys actually even try to step outside your thoughts on these things?

Application, not rumination.

anybody care to show a vid of themselves striking with a claw on a piece of flesh and actually tearing a chunk off?

I thought not.

Fishhooking is also not the same as striking a mass of flesh, penetrating it and tearing it out. it is inserting your finger into an orifice and pulling which wp is correct, any schmoe can do this WITHOUT ever training a dang thing.

get out of your heads is my advice.

[hasayfu]

So XI uses the 2nd claw like a reversing crane-beak strike that sinks into a grab and leverages on the closed fingers for the tear?

Not that way.

Here's one example. Not the only way but I think it may be clear

imagine doing a back fist stike that gets blocked. rotate the fist and open the three fingers as you slide your hand towards the blocking wrist. the open fingers grab the arm and continue to squeeze harder as you traverse the arm.

When the two curled fingers hit the wrist, they form a leverage point that keeps the hand locked into place and the three fingers (thumb, index, middle) hold the arm. This forms a tighter grip them if all fingers were around the arm.

Hope that made sense.

[Yum Cha]

Pak Mei uses the hand similarly to the definitions by shuaichiao. The open finger one is to attack the throat or groin, and is for penetrating or ripping. And yes, if done correctly, attacking the weak thin flesh, you can penetrate the throat, or at least I'm told, never tried it. Either way, it would crush the windpipe if you tried, to the same practical effect. There is a special way to do it though, not just grabbing the throat.

KL, can you stick your fingers through a chicken's ribs, er, thaw it out first....its a bit easier than tearing a hunk of BBQ off a raw carcass...

The one I wonder about is reaching in and grabbing a rib.

If I looked at the first picture, with the two fingers extended, I would say to bend the fingers a little, and we call that eagle claw.

The other hand, we call Tiger, and the palm strikes first, with the finger and thumb tips adding to the impact, then the fingers make the grab, as in grabbing the back of a tricept, the fat on the back, an ear, neck tendon (driving the thumb into the front of the neck) etc, etc. The idea being a strike and grab.

We also have "Kau La" which is a grabbing bridge of sorts. like a raking attack that grabs onto whatever it can...

Those who choose to train the grabbing strength become very efficient. Finger tip, not finger print, pushups are the measure.

Two bits from my point of view only, not eagle claw style per se.

I think there are several arts, each with their own techniques that have ideas on wrenting flesh, either pulling off bits, penetrating weak spots, or striking to cut then pulling at the wound. I don't think its uniquely eagle claw....

[Ben Gash]

Kung Lek, why do you insist on transferring your own insecurities onto others? You are, after all, the king of theoretical kung fu. As I said, putting your fingers through the dense muscle of the abdomen or thigh would be a VERY advanced skill, but the skin over the face and throat are much easier to damage (hell, the skin over the face tears if you punch it).
After all, you can't even get the thing on target..... :rolleyes:

[David Jamieson]

Kung Lek, why do you insist on transferring your own insecurities onto others? You are, after all, the king of theoretical kung fu. As I said, putting your fingers through the dense muscle of the abdomen or thigh would be a VERY advanced skill, but the skin over the face and throat are much easier to damage (hell, the skin over the face tears if you punch it).
After all, you can't even get the thing on target..... :rolleyes:

bwahahahaha. mouth boxing? man, "king of theoretical" what the fuk is that supposed to mean gash? just post a vid of you clawing something, i wanna see someone pull it off cause I never have.

I've seen a cook eviscerate a chicken without a knife but I'm will to bet that you can't show me you tearing flesh and you can't show me anyone you know doing the same and speaking of fukking theoretical, get real ok.

In fact has anyone seen their teacher, or someone else tear flesh with their bare hands off the body of another human being? Not heard some story, but seen it first hand themselves or have an accurate eye witness recording?

I'm betting on NOT.

So there's your "theoratical" nancy. Sh.it. I wasn't talking about tearing soft gentalia type tissue, I'm talking chunks off muscle and I'll say it again any kid can do a fish hook, poke you in the eye, rip your scrotum etc etc. That's not the direction that was being taken with the whole claw dilly until I brought it up that it is preposterous to fashion in your mind some screwy idea that you can tear and rend flesh from a human body with a claw handform.

I call bull.sh.it it is your job to shut me down with pics or vids of you doing this on an inanimate roast beef even without skin.

Yum cha, I can kill chickens just as easily as the next guy. :D

[YuanZhideDiZhen]

In the Xing Yi I practice I have never been introduced to this hand posture (does not mean anything though). In Li Tianji's excellent book he makes mention of it though.

Cheers
Jake :D

PS If I throw in another $10,000 can you teach me how to fly too? ;)

Hang gung is extra beyond the $10,000.00 petition.

however, i will teach a third year student a form with a very long standing leap that looks like something out of a Beijing opera! :cool:

[YuanZhideDiZhen]

. That's not the direction that was being taken with the whole claw dilly until I brought it up that it is preposterous to fashion in your mind some screwy idea that you can tear and rend flesh from a human body with a claw handform.

I call bull.sh.it it is your job to shut me down with pics or vids of you doing this on an inanimate roast beef even without skin.

Yum cha, I can kill chickens just as easily as the next guy. :D

Umm...

Lord of the Theoretical, Great Sceptic and Nihilist, Butt Cheeks Super Glued By A Still Frozen ****: :p

That is precisely what one of my teachers is famous for in China. :cool:

[David Jamieson]

That is precisely what one of my teachers is famous for in China.

yeah? got any pics? vids? tangible stuff other than chit chat on a web forum?

:rolleyes:

pfft. this thread has become a joke.

I'd be happy to demonstrate anything in a non theoretical way.

I am more than willing to vid, pic or physically meet and show whatever I say I can do. I am readily willing to say what is sh.it and what is not regardless of where it comes from.

$8000? what do you take me for LOL. Don't you make outrageous claims of deep fried arms in your style? Got any vids of that? I'd like to see that. You read too many wuxia novels dude.

You know, it's talk like this nonsense that convinces people that kungfu is goofy. Be real with yer fu is all I'm saying and stfu with the movie crap or the little boy fantasies.

[Ben Gash]

"That's not the direction that was being taken with the whole claw dilly until I brought it up that it is preposterous to fashion in your mind some screwy idea that you can tear and rend flesh from a human body with a claw handform"
Kung Lek, WTF are you going on about? The only people who have said this are you and Winterpalm. What does THAT tell us? I have never at any point claimed to be able to tear peoples muscles of and have REPEATEDLY stated that the claw is useful against soft tissue.
The fact that you can't manage to use a claw at all and have this strange obsession with pulling people's muscle's off speaks more than anything else you have to say about this topic.

[Ben Gash]

Sorry, I'm getting a little heated, it's been a long night (and I get REALLY riled when people with no fight record get on their high horse at me about "keeping it real man" ).

[Three Harmonies]

Kung Lek
Why do you not like Canadian beer? It is much better than US! :p
I figured everyone would benefit from a beer on this thread. Speaking of which where did Eric go? I would like to buy his a brewsky sometime.

Cheers
Jake :D

[David Jamieson]

Sorry, I'm getting a little heated, it's been a long night (and I get REALLY riled when people with no fight record get on their high horse at me about "keeping it real man" ).


no fight record? I have a juvenile boxing record that is not too bad actually. what's your fight record?

if yer ever in trawna and want to play ben, i would be more than happy to come down off my high horse. just being friendly.

and i believe it is you who has some beef with my former sifu due to whatever. it seems to go back and forth between your (former? current) and my former(definitely former) and their students all the time. I have no idea why you would want to perpetuate this nonsense, but like i said, I think using a claw in the fashion as described by deep fried arms boy is a crock o sh.it.

And I am willing to stfu if anyone can show me one string of evidence t6o the contrary.

anyway, that's my piece on this. soft tissue, orifices , eyes and clutching with a claw? Yes.

tearing the living flesh off another man? bullsh.it.

that's my view, i'm sticking to it.

[Ben Gash]

So we're in agreement then :confused:
My only problem with Wes is that he is such a total pr*ck on this forum, and Winterpalm because he lives up his a*s. I'm sure there are many of your former classmates who are perfectly decent guys (like your good self ;) ). I've never heard any of Neil's other students slag him off.

[Starchaser107]

did you just refer to Kung Lek as a "decent guy" :eek: :)

[David Jamieson]

Ben-

well, he'll (wc)be who he is no matter what and as for Neil, I like him, he's a straightforward guy and I never had a problem with him even when wc had issues with him here on the forum and was sending messages through me. Now that was a romp down the path of asshattery!But I really would rather just put that behind me. Winterpalm will "get it" one day...or not, who knows, it doesn't matter really. Point being, I have learned that the quality of one's Kungfu has little to do with their personality and character. nuff said about that.

Starchaser your mom thinks I'm totally decent. Also, she needs you to wash teh sheets it was a bit of a slap and tickle fest up there last night so put your apron on and get to work. :P

[Starchaser107]

Yeah you and my Rotweiler were having some good old backyard fun. Mom is really disappointed that you messed up the sheets that were drying on the line though :( . But hopefully we'll have some new puppies to sell in a few months...

oh wait bruno is male. :eek:

[David Jamieson]

oh wait bruno is male.

not anymore he's not :D

[Yum Cha]

Yum cha, I can kill chickens just as easily as the next guy. :D

Sorry to interrupt the flame war guys, just that something occured to me. KL, seems to indicate that most Kung Fu guys could kill a chicken, fair enough.

Do you think the BBJ guys would simply choke their chicken to death?

[WinterPalm]

I never said anything about tearing off muscles. I don't know where you guys get this from. If you read my posts you will see that I said tearing flesh and nothing about ripping off muscles.

I understand that the bulk of you guys are children, I'll be the first to admit that this place is a very funny one with fools who spout their mouths about nonsense and then insult each other, but I mean really, Ben, I doubt you would say any of that garbage to my Sifu. But, this forum allows you to remain a hidden child and so be it that you can and are more than welcome to slander anybody you want but you should realize how incredibly stupid it makes you look.
I don't know about Sifu's past but he is a very good man, an excellent and very skilled martial artist and a great teacher, plus he's a nice guy! Those are some things that maybe you fellows should try to cultivate instead of this forum boxing that I have to admit, you guys are the kings of. I'm not going to participate so I just wanted to let you know that as far as this art of Forum Boxing is concerned, you guys take the cake! I just love the childish ways you present yourselves and I hope for your sakes that if you ever have any students, they don't see what kind of idiots their teachers are!

That said, I am not offended as I would not be offended by children saying childish things to me, it is just funny to see grown men behaving this way.

If I may, I would say that I have taken the correct and slam dunked it. :)

[David Jamieson]

I never said anything about tearing off muscles. I don't know where you guys get this from. If you read my posts you will see that I said tearing flesh and nothing about ripping off muscles.

I understand that the bulk of you guys are children, I'll be the first to admit that this place is a very funny one with fools who spout their mouths about nonsense and then insult each other, but I mean really, Ben, I doubt you would say any of that garbage to my Sifu. But, this forum allows you to remain a hidden child and so be it that you can and are more than welcome to slander anybody you want but you should realize how incredibly stupid it makes you look.
I don't know about Sifu's past but he is a very good man, an excellent and very skilled martial artist and a great teacher, plus he's a nice guy! Those are some things that maybe you fellows should try to cultivate instead of this forum boxing that I have to admit, you guys are the kings of. I'm not going to participate so I just wanted to let you know that as far as this art of Forum Boxing is concerned, you guys take the cake! I just love the childish ways you present yourselves and I hope for your sakes that if you ever have any students, they don't see what kind of idiots their teachers are!

That said, I am not offended as I would not be offended by children saying childish things to me, it is just funny to see grown men behaving this way.

If I may, I would say that I have taken the correct and slam dunked it. :)


ma forums are no place for the thin skinned. yeesh. and lol, and so on.

yum-

I only know a couple of bjj-ers. and though i think they can choke their chickens like anyone else, I would also add they can tool me with groundwork and I am working my ass off to get better at it because of the epiphany that stand up ain't always were you get to be whether you train like a dog at it or not.

avoidance only works for a little while, humans are real resilient and guys who train like athletes are a tough go even for someone with years of traditional experience, training, sparring and all of it.

always a good thing to introduce yourself to someone who can hand you your ass now and then, Gives a fresh perspective and tosses any sort of illusions you may have held about your skills, so to speak.

[South Paw]

I just noticed last night that Gordan Lu Used a three finger eagle claw in Kill Bill 2. He challenged Uma to test her tiger crane against his eagle claw and then in classic shaw brothers style demonstrated his three fingered eagle claw pose.


Hi soulguy2K,

There is some Eagle Claw in Pack Mei Pai, practised in Germany.
For real Eagle Claw you have to see Wim Maulany, who lives in the Netherlands near the German border.

Kind regards,
KPE
www.hunggar.nl

[Yum Cha]

South Paw,
You are correct, Pak Mei does make use of Eagle Claw, as detailed in the comments I made earlier.

KL - So, don't tell me you've been seduced to the dark side....LOL...just kidding.

I've got a bit of ground game too, I know what you mean. Don't know how I'd do against a BBJ guy on the mats, but, I did some wrestling in High School that has helped me out a bit in the past. I've got some chokes and some funny takedowns from Pak Mei as well.

BTW, I really enjoyed wrestling in High School, and Jr High, and that's what probably got me into other MA....

The phrase that comes to mind is "Know your enemy to know yourself."

Oh yea, and bite.....if you can't beat 'em, eat 'em. Very effective at getting holds broken...and not bad sauteed in garlic with fatha beans...

[David Jamieson]

actually, I think the dark side is the closed school mentality of not reaching out and trying other things even if you've got the basics and principles. The subtle mind control that you constantly wonder if it's happening or not and all that other goodness we find in martial arts dojos and kwoons.

the light side of the force is reaching out, spreading your wings and getting a taste of reality and getting to touch hands with a wide variety of players and knowing what is hoo ha and what is not hoo ha.

having said that, I value fu training, but in my opinion, the method is growing antiquated and not as useful as rbsd systems when it comes right down to it.
This I am learning from real experience and not just postualtion about it on an internet forum.

anyway, just saying, be careful of who's ass you keep your head up, eventually you'll get sh.it in your face. :p

[Yum Cha]

Gee KL,
I get the feeling you really got screwed at your last school....

I agree with much of your point of view, but as the saying goes, if you try to be all things to all people, you end up being nothing to anybody.

Good luck with your new direction, I hope you find if fulfilling.

[fiercest tiger]

Howdy Dude,

Ive been playing with some grappling lately against an Aust Submission Champ, his ground work is really smooth once they take you down. My knowledge of Bak Mei/ YKM grappling helps but shows that im lacking, although when it came to stand up he found an elbow, palm and hammerfist in his face everytime.

I must say its scarry on the ground with a good grappler, he showed me some stuff that i was tapping out within 15 seconds. Of Course i wasnt allow to strike or do anything, but he showed me some nice escapes and counters.

Gaz

[Yum Cha]

Hey FT,
Yea, is that the guy training with Tux at Bondi Junction, Eastern European? I met him, really fit, acrobatics too, 70kg-ish?

Tell me, with the size differential, can he take you down at will, or is it a struggle?

Any other observations that might be interesting?

What, they don't let you sneak a few fung ahn choi into the sweet spots during the mat work...LOL.

[fiercest tiger]

No, the guy i work out with is at work, he learns from a gym at concord that the teacher enters UFC and Pride etc. They train shoot fighting and all sorts of arts like thai, boxing, greco, pancraese, wrestling, kickboxing. He couldnt take me down and couldnt get pass my bridge, but when he said let me show u a few things on the ground i knew if it was for real usuing just grappling i would have been hurt. If i was to strike probably a different story, but i do respect these guys that can grapple GOOD, cause its not easy man!!

Gaz

Tux, i he a black guy? NOT THE KICKBOXER FROM NEWZEALAND?

Gaz

[Yum Cha]

Hi Gaz,
Yea, Tux and the Eastern Euro dude are the LHBF guys at Bondi Junction, Tux is the tall black guy, long time student of Corney that played a jedi in the Star Wars flick. I thought that's who you were talking about. I think they both do movie/stunt work...

Thanks for the feedback on the takedowns. How much does this guy weigh? Grappling is a good way to work up a burn in a hurry....lol...

[YuanZhideDiZhen]

, I think using a claw in the fashion as described by deep fried arms boy is a crock o sh.it.

And I am willing to stfu if anyone can show me one string of evidence t6o the contrary.
.

care to meet me somewhere?

for most practicioners the technique will rip muscle from bone. for a few the skin will tear in the process.

i once mangled the abdominal wall of a cop in tampa, fl with this technique in a demonstration at a city center for the tampa pd and fl state police.

[red5angel]

once mangled the abdominal wall of a cop in tampa, fl with this technique in a demonstration at a city center for the tampa pd and fl state police.


BWAHAHAHAHAAA!!! Seriously man, you're spent. give it up.

[YuanZhideDiZhen]

BWAHAHAHAHAAA!!! Seriously man, you're spent. give it up.

actually, i jabbed a tiger claw past his kevlar's front side flap on his right, grabbed a handful of abdominal muscle , twisted and pulled, then threw him by the hand hold.

as i have said before, i'll be happy to demonstrate these techniques on you in a non lethal fashion so you can see. you must sign a hold harmless agreement. I will go to you or you can come to me.

any takers?

[David Jamieson]

i once mangled the abdominal wall of a cop in tampa, fl with this technique in a demonstration at a city center for the tampa pd and fl state police.


names? dates? no? you are a lying idiot. You are saying you have no control at a demo is the same as saying "I don't know how to do this actually and I am blowing steam out my ass by typing this nonsense here to impress someone"





actually, i jabbed a tiger claw past his kevlar's front side flap on his right, grabbed a handful of abdominal muscle , twisted and pulled, then threw him by the hand hold.

as i have said before, i'll be happy to demonstrate these techniques on you in a non lethal fashion so you can see. you must sign a hold harmless agreement. I will go to you or you can come to me.

any takers?

[customary retort to outlandish stupid challenge]
Come on down and see what jay has in the box. so you gonna meet one of us in a park? by the pond? the one with the ducks in it? pfft. :rolleyes:

at your leisure deep fried.
[/customary retort to outlandish stupid challenge]

[YuanZhideDiZhen]

names? dates? no? you are a lying idiot. You are saying you have no control at a demo is the same as saying "I don't know how to do this actually and I am blowing steam out my ass by typing this nonsense here to impress someone"

[customary retort to outlandish stupid challenge]
Come on down and see what jay has in the box. so you gonna meet one of us in a park? by the pond? the one with the ducks in it? pfft. :rolleyes:

at your leisure deep fried.
[/customary retort to outlandish stupid challenge]

really? you'll sign a hold harmless agreement? pm me your lawyer's address.

if you're serious i'll go all the way for you and demonstrate what you scoff at before you if you can do one thing before we meet: qualify for ufc or win the orlando international kf/ws open. fair enough?

out of curiosity why do you think it's my business to provide you with names of police officers who invited me to teach/show them something? generally in the states that kind of thing is not allowed: it must be deparetmentally approved for the kind of exhibition you might be thinking about. why do you think i lost control? because i hurt someone? the whole point of martial arts is to **** someone up as fast and as permenantly as you can. the demonstration was to prove that a kevlar vest or a firearm was not the final answer on the street.

why do you always flame people in your reponses but when it comes time to pay the piper you run away? you keep saying "bring it on" to Red5 but you never materialize from behind your monitor. you say "anytime" to my fried arms but you're still nowhere to be found when the fried knuckle sandwich is ready for delivery. if you're a whimp just stop short of getting yourself into problems you won't be able to handle.

there is a reason why i require all my challengers to meet a certain criteria. the same reason goes for all my prospective students. if you're serious enough to prove you can either train with me or swing at me then start in a venue in which you won't get seriously challenged or hurt. prove you can do what i'll push you beyond.

[fiercest tiger]

Yaun,

What system do you study? You have some interesting stuff!!



PLEASE put this on a clip!?

Kung Lek,

Looks like you have to do this man, put up baby!! hahah

I was told that some old eagle and tiger claw masters used to pull bricks out of a wall with there claw hand. Is this true? :)


FT

[David Jamieson]

really? you'll sign a hold harmless agreement? pm me your lawyer's address.

if you're serious i'll go all the way for you and demonstrate what you scoff at before you if you can do one thing before we meet: qualify for ufc or win the orlando international kf/ws open. fair enough?

out of curiosity why do you think it's my business to provide you with names of police officers who invited me to teach/show them something? generally in the states that kind of thing is not allowed: it must be deparetmentally approved for the kind of exhibition you might be thinking about. why do you think i lost control? because i hurt someone? the whole point of martial arts is to **** someone up as fast and as permenantly as you can. the demonstration was to prove that a kevlar vest or a firearm was not the final answer on the street.

why do you always flame people in your reponses but when it comes time to pay the piper you run away? you keep saying "bring it on" to Red5 but you never materialize from behind your monitor. you say "anytime" to my fried arms but you're still nowhere to be found when the fried knuckle sandwich is ready for delivery. if you're a whimp just stop short of getting yourself into problems you won't be able to handle.

there is a reason why i require all my challengers to meet a certain criteria. the same reason goes for all my prospective students. if you're serious enough to prove you can either train with me or swing at me then start in a venue in which you won't get seriously challenged or hurt. prove you can do what i'll push you beyond.

My name is in my profile, my email can be obtained from my website www.davidjamieson.com/kunglek

I've met and traded and exchanged with people off the internet on more than a few occasions and I flame you because you are full of sh.it and you are also backing the fuk out of everything with your stupid ass waivers and bull**** asks.

You won't even tell us your name, show us a website, give us a clip, nothing.

Anyway, it takes very little time and effort to find me and get to me.
Anyway, show up or stfu whatever your name is whoever you are.

I'm betting you're a no show. Like every other little troll who gets called on his nonsense BS claims.

[Kristoffer]

BATTLE !!
make sure u videotape it

[David Jamieson]

kentucky fried arms is just another troll-no-show.

It is hard to videotape vapour and who would watch if you could?

[Theoderic]

OK I am new here and KFC frying arms guy is annoying. I will tell you what, I will be in Pennsylvania in August. I will meet you anywhere and have anything signed provided you let it be videotaped and used at my discression.



I hear a line of BS coming from him any moment now...

That way either you shut up all of us doubters or you can shut the H3!! up.

You can forward any email directly to me at rcblanzy@belenzi.com

[GeneChing]

READ Fighting with Qinna: Eagle Claw’s Entry Concepts By Williy Pang in our SUMMER 2018 issue (http://www.kungfumagazine.com/magazine/article.php?article=1420).

http://www.kungfumagazine.com/admin/site_images/KungfuMagazine/upload/2684_KFM2018-Summer-Cover.jpg

[David Jamieson]

13 years ago, I had enough of that guy KF arms....
Today, I laughed reading this. :D