Wushu Needs Name Rectification [Archive]

Starchaser107

03-01-2005, 03:02 PM

I kind of agree that the names are too entrenched to change as well.
But if it were to change i think using the words "Traditional" and "Sport" respectively for kung fu and wushu would help.

with karate they don't seem to have a problem. It's either some form of traditional karate or some sport karate.

I will say though, that as entrenched as the words kung fu and wushu are within the chinese martial arts community, there are lots of people in the english speaking world, who don't even know the difference between the asian martial arts on a whole, so maybe it's not as engrained as we think?
I've had numerous encounters with people who aren't farmiliar with the term wushu at all, and had to explain to them what the diference between it and kung fu is.
however alot of these people have a very limited understanding of what kung fu is in the first place. Names are important. I find that people confuse the names of schools for the name of the system taught in the school. kung fu is a complex animal and tricky names already complicate matters.
I'm kind of uncertain about wether or not changing the name at this stage in the game will only confuse matters more.

glad it's not my responsibility :p

GeneChing

03-01-2005, 03:09 PM

Here's a link to the article being discussed (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/ezine/article.php?article=581), just in case you couldn't figure it out.

The name game in CMA is really nutty, especially when you start bringing in the alternate spellings of Kung Fu, Gung Fu, Gong Fu, etc. The problem with what Master An is discussing is that Kung Fu (or Wushu) truly belongs to the world now. It's not just a Chinese thing. In China, you can have something like 'name rectification'. Hell, they rectified the entire language with the simplified characters. But in America, as well as the rest of the world, it's a more democratic process. The people will call it Kung Fu, because that's how it's known in pop culture. With Crouching Tiger, Flying Daggers, etc., you're starting to hear about Wushu in pop culture, but no one's going to change the name at this point.

We'll have more from Master An coming next update. Stay tuned! And forward the article to your friends. Tell them to join the forum here. Help us grow!

PangQuan

03-01-2005, 03:29 PM

I guess I understand the whole, calling it kung fu due to the popular way it has been spread throughout film. I just seem to like the more traditional meanings of kung fu meaning energy/time, or skill, and wushu meaning the art of resisting the spear, stopping ones spear, stopping ones own spear, or martial arts. I apply the term kung fu to more then just my martial arts. But at the same time find myslef falling in with the flow of the modern terminology. Its just hard to represent your school when you tell them you study wushu and they say "those guys dont fight do they?" and you say, "ok heres how it is...." I suppose that Ill have to go with the flow, at least in outside circles.

GeneChing

03-01-2005, 05:49 PM

It's tricky because no matter what you do - whether you chose wushu or kung fu - you get caught in semantics if you know a little Chinese. It's part of the the old 'east is east, west is west" culture clash - very tough to translate without a long boring lecture. And in the end, pop culture doesn't care. Pop culture is just getting past calling it all 'karate'. The main point is that you can't change the common vernacular to be more 'correct'. What are you going to do? Cite people for using the wrong term? It has to happen organically and at this point, we're only big enough to be labelled by one term. For average Americans, wushu needs to be defined.

PangQuan

03-01-2005, 05:53 PM

When you put it like that, it makes a lot of sense. Hopefully we can all do our part to educate those who we come in contact with regarding this subject matter.

Kristoffer

03-02-2005, 04:14 AM

I dunno about the rest of Europe but around here the term Wushu is used as frequantly as 'Kung Fu', among Martial artists atleast. Of cors, the average non MA won't know the difference between CMA, TKD or Karate, so the Wushu/Kung Fu issue is not important.

GeneChing

03-02-2005, 11:29 AM

Shaolinlueb

03-02-2005, 12:01 PM

in america we were forced to grow up in a puritanical society and forced to have sex with one person for out whole lives. while in europe its the sex capital of the world...

**** eurotrip still has me laughing.

PangQuan

03-02-2005, 12:51 PM

NeuroGrrrl

03-02-2005, 01:23 PM

So Gene, if name rectification is in order, will we all be posting to the Wu Shu Magazine forum soon?

GeneChing

03-02-2005, 02:42 PM

NRG: That's doubtful. If you look in our archives (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/magazine/index.php), you'll find that we used to be called Wushu Kungfu Qigong (along with a bunch of variations on this title :rolleyes:). We dropped the wushu and changed qigong to tai chi to meet the needs of our newsstand. Americans just couldn't handle a title with three Chinese words.

PQ: I've never actually been to Europe, so it's hard for me to say. I imagine having more different countries so close to each other promotes more diversity. Also America tends to be kind of schizo when it comes to anything older than 200 years. We really don't have old stuff, so the notion of new stuff can be confounding.

SLL: I would never have said the America is puratanical. But then again, I've not seen Eurotrip. ;)

Kristoffer

03-03-2005, 05:36 AM

I speak from an American perspective so the European take is intriguiing. I've always felt that Europe was a bit more accepting of wushu than America. I don't know why, nor do I know why I feel that. Obviously if it's made more progress in the language, that's some validation of my feeling. What do you think? Would you say that's different for diffrent European countries? It must be, yes?

It's definatly different from country to country. Despite simmilaritys in culture, differences are far greater. So I can really only speak of the Scandinavian region.
I think one reason the term Wushu is so common here is because when traditional Wushu was brought to this country in the 70's, it was called Wushu from the get go. And because of all the Bruce Lee films at the time, Kung Fu started to get popular. Thus the 'Wushu/Kung Fu' issue has never been more than just names.

Also, modern Wushu never established very well around here. Not until a few years ago I started see some small groups of modern Wushu pop up here and there. Maybe they will be more popular in the future but today, traditional Wushu is and has been the popular one. Sanda competitions are very popular, so popular that people started to cut with the traditional and open up their own schools - training only Sanda but still calling it Wushu.
I guess our competition driven Sanda schools are our modern Wushu eh :)

In fact to promote the name "Wushu" is to promote or attempt to legitimize Communist Chinese Government Kungfu or it's practicioners.

Pardon my french but that's Bullsh1t. If you know what Wushu means it doesn't take alot to figure out it is also a collective term to refer to traditional Martial Arts.
If anything, it should be the modern Wushu changing name to Kung Fu! Because the name Wushu decribes what traditional CMA do, while Gong Fu describe a skill in ANYTHING. So in my opinion I think you are promoting a false name for the traditional arts.

But then again, they are only names to decribe arts from China/Taiwan. Just like Karate is to Japanese/Okinawan. We know the difference, so a global official name change is as rediculous as inpossible to do.

Kristoffer

03-03-2005, 05:45 AM

Wushu is also viewed upon as a FIGHTING art. When ppl around here talk about Wushu they think of traditional or fighting arts. Now that modern Wushu is starting to get more recognized, maybe the traditionalists wants to be more specific about the names, but in all honestly I doubt it. They are only names and both are accepted. Besides, arguing over the names won't improve u'r side kick.

And if I train Shuai Chiao I say I train Shuai Chiao, people who knows, know. There's no reason to explain the differences between Wushu and Kung Fu for anyone that won't get it anyway. Just tell ppl the name of you're style, that's what I do.

PangQuan

03-03-2005, 10:14 AM

Here is a very basic translation of the original meaning of the word Wushu, for those of you who have not looked it up.

http://www.completemartialarts.com/information/styles/chinese/wushu.htm

This also is a very broad translation attempt, the further back you look at the characters, it can be translated differently, depending on the time period in which it was used. In other words the oldest translation differs from the newest in the respect that when the word was originally used the Chinese language as a whole was completely different. You can find the most accurate translations of the ancient character in many literary works. Most defining it the way that I described in my second post (i think it was my second) on this thread.

GeneChing

03-03-2005, 10:22 AM

This is a major problem with the term 'wushu' - it means different things to different people. It's especially frustrating to anyone who has studied Chinese and/or China because many less studied martial arts enthusiasts will adopt wolfen's point of view. I'm really glad he brought it up because I think it's a major issue in this discussion. Frankly, one of the reasons we decided to drop the term 'wushu' from our title was this - what I call the 'red stigma'. Dang commies. ;)

I don't know if y'all caught our Mar Apr 2005 issue (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/magazine/article.php?article=578) (It's on newsstands now so if not, run out and get it!!) but we reveiwed two major traditional tournaments - The First Traditional Chinese Martial Arts Exposition in Taiwan and The 1st World Traditional Wushu Festival in PRC (near Shaolin Temple, no less - You can read more on this tournament - for free - in my current e-zine column Shaolin Trips Episode 4 (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/magazine/article.php?article=576)). Both tournaments featured very traditional arts, although there was certainly some wushu present with some of the younger attendees. Both tournaments also used the term chan tong wushu (traditional wushu) in their title. Notably, we didn't translate the title of these events - the promoters already had prepared an English title. Taiwan, of course, translated it as 'martial arts' whereas as Mainland China stuck with 'wushu,' even though it was exactly the same characters in Chinese. Dang commies... ;)

David Jamieson

03-03-2005, 10:27 AM

well, many of us know it as this;

wushu= performance art with martial flavour and no actual fighting skill

kungfu= not for performance art and about developing martial ability/self defense and cultivation of higher level of human beingness.

It is worth noting that there are huge groups within both who do not know these simple definitions. lol. :p

PangQuan

03-03-2005, 11:08 AM

I think the major factor here is your background and where and when you began your studies, and most importantly the materials and individuals that were present in your learnings. Most people that are dedicated CMA practitioners are familiar with the modern definition of wushu equaling martialy flavored acrobatic routines, and kungfu/gongfu equalling the martial arts derived from chinese background. For me personally, before I even found my teacher, or even style for that matter, I did extensive background research on many different martial arts. Eventually I decided that CMA was best for me. Through my digging I encountered the works of many east asian language professors, both new and old. I adopted the combined efforts of these language masters, to what I now personally envision as the acurate translations. The interesting thing is that my sifu has the same understanding of the translations. Though for mainstream american driven business, we use the popular term kung fu.

Shaolinlueb

03-03-2005, 11:22 AM

wushu to me is old school and new school martial arts. its all wushu its all kung fu. :) nuff said. in china you dont see them seperating the old vs modern too much anymore.

David Jamieson

03-03-2005, 12:20 PM

in China you see the Government interfering with cultural traditions in order to control the minds and hearts of the people.

but hey, who's paying attention. :p

PangQuan

03-03-2005, 05:23 PM

This is very interesting wolfen, i am glad you posted to this thread.

David Jamieson

03-03-2005, 05:31 PM

My chinese kungfu pals all know the PRC gov is seeking to eliminate the "pais" and have only one.

this way they don't have to deal with individual flavour, seperate philosophies or diversity in teh martial arts.

people who have learned something know what happens when diversity is cut off.

no diversity = no survival and you get one bland dying flavour with nil growth or variety.

In my personal opinion, this is bad for martial arts as a whole. It is the same reason closed schools that do 100 year old forms are not my thing either. Not unless there is flexibility, adaptation and renewal. Principles are the known truths, but applications are ever changing to fit the environment they are in.

Brad

03-03-2005, 07:05 PM

I don't find the idea of wanting wushu as a standard name for all CMA's any different than people who insist that kungfu should only be for traditional styles and wushu should only be used for modern sport wushu. Not all modern wushu is sport wushu, not all sport wushu is forms, and not all traditional kungfu agrees about how they should be practicing either. I think people should just use whatever they want and just be honest about the terms they use.

wushu= performance art with martial flavour and no actual fighting skill

kungfu= not for performance art and about developing martial ability/self defense and cultivation of higher level of human beingness.
With most people it's more like...
kungfu=another name for karate
wushu=what they serve at the local Chinese restraunt
karate=martial arts done by asian people
:D

Seriously though, I don't think there's much difference between schools advertising kungfu or wushu. Of all the kungfu schools I've come across, most people don't train fighting, a few do, and a fraction of them do it well. Same with the wushu schools. Both also get heavilly involved in petty political crap :P I do tend to go for schools advertising "wushu" more than "kungfu" for reasons I won't get into now, but I've found really great stuff from all kinds of types.

One odd thing about fake government commie wushu vs. real traditional kungfu, is in some traditional schools I've come across I see a bunch of people dressed in matching uniforms with cult like loyalty to their style and teacher... while in the last two commie art classes I've attended I've been with people who dressed different, had diverse martial arts backgrounds, and loved all styles of martial arts. You'd think it would be the other way around ;)

I'm saying that kind of half joking, because I really do love traditional Chinese martial arts, but a lot of traditionalists(or I should say, people who call themselves traditionalists) make me sad.

David Jamieson

03-03-2005, 07:28 PM

jammie uniforms are ok for demos. they look crisp! and make your team look like a unit. I'm cool with that.

also for childrens classes it is good to have uniformity in order to have the kids feel like they are part of something important.

after all, nothing is important if people don't buy into it. (you know, everything is illusory etc etc, buddha bing buddha boom)

standards should be set, but definitely, you shouldn't allow yourself to be taken by a shill.

and it's "krotty" brad. Ka-ra-Té is only practiced by hard core ninjas who we never see. :D

GeneChing

03-04-2005, 10:32 AM

I didn't mean to include you in my "less studied" comment, but in retrospect, it certainly can be interpreted that way. My meaning was that if you don't study Chinese, the wushu = martial arts, kung fu = hard work is more elusive. Obviously you've studied some Chinese (thanks for the pinyin correction, BTW). If you do study Chinese, like yourself, you may still have this opinion, obviously.

A lot of the anti-wushu camp will cite communism as the main culprit. In the fallout of the Cultural Revolution, an absolutely horrible period in China's history, it's easy to place blame. And I'm not saying that such blame is unfounded necessarily, but there's enough distance now that we can look at the CR a bit more critically. Also, the PRC is changing rapidly. Let me ask all of the anti-wushu people this: do you think that China could ever promote traditional kung fu again or is it all a done deal forever more?

Personally, I'm for any Chinese martial art - wushu, traditional, anything and everything. You can interpret that as being pro-wushu, I suppose. I dabbled in wushu in college and at Shaolin temple, but my practice is traditional - that's where my roots are and that's what I practice now. I believe there's enough space in this world for all and that CMA is too small to sqaubble in tribal war (but that's never stopped us). The name rectification thing is a major problem because language doesn't work that way in America. You can't 'rectify' words like you can in PRC. It's also a huge gray zone, as we can see from this discussion. I feel this is important since these discussions allow us all to consider other perspectives. I'm very enthusiastic about this article now since it has elicted this thread.

Shaolinlueb

03-04-2005, 10:38 AM

good post gene.

gene when you went to the worlds traditional martial arts tournament back in august in china, did they seperate the "traditional" form the "modern"?

i jsut call it all wushu. i dont like to dabble in the politics of martial arts, because i find it destroys the art with all these "turf" wars. jsut back up what you say, dont go making false claims.

PangQuan

03-04-2005, 01:12 PM

How about change:

Wushu -> Modern Chinese Dancing Art and

Kung Fu -> Ancient Chinese Combat Art

This is generally how it is excepted in terminology in the states. For those that practice anyhow.

Shaolinlueb

03-04-2005, 01:25 PM

for me, the only people i have seen seperate kung fu and wushu are the traditionalist. the modern wushu people seem to call it all wushu. but the traditionalist's are the ones that make a big deal out of it. this has been my experience.

Kristoffer

03-05-2005, 05:00 AM

Modern Wushu gets all the flexible chicks though..

SPJ

03-05-2005, 08:32 AM

Some perspectives from students of CMA from Taiwan. They are trained in the old ways.

Wu Xue= Wu Su + Wu Yi.

Wu Xue is the study of fighting, warfare, combat, tactics, strategy, history, geography, weapons, open hand combat, soldiering, commanding, morales, supplies, weather, -- everything about how, why, people fight.

Wu Su is the techniques of fighting: open hand, weapon, in groups of people etc.

Wu Yi is the arts of fightings. Not just study of the method and techniques of fighting but also theories and principles and derivations of new techniques etc.

Wu Xue >>> Wu Yi> Wu Su.

So arts are called Yi + Su.

Xue is the study of Yi and Su. Or all the knowledge of Yi and Su and all related topics, medicine, anatomy, physiology, pyschology etc, a scholarly study.

SPJ

03-05-2005, 08:54 AM

There are 3 developments of CMA in China.

A. There are research committee setup for each school of style. Ba Gua Zhang research commitee in Bei Jing. Chen Tai Ji in Chen Jia Gou. Wu style Ba Ji in Meng Cu etc. There are books and vcd published with all the info of original training, history, theories, forms researched and compiled. The students and teachers are linage bearers usually.

B. Wu shu and PE curricullum from high schools to colleges. There are some in depth studies and but not as good as those in A. For example, Tai Ji would be the composite 27, 48 forms. Shaolin Xiao Hong was reduced 50% and became the Shaolin WU SHU intro studies, etc.

C. Wu shu demo and GYM comp are just DEMO and GYM comp. The rules are changing all the time. The central and local organizations are renamed and changed all the time. And yes they are more limited from B. They may call it Wu Shu Academy. If there are not A or B. Then it is the C. It is only for promotion, demo and comp as such. International events are even more limited. Gun Shu routine or staff is composite to be flashy and flowery. It does have the essence of fighting. But showy is stressed. Nan Quan and Chang Quan are adopted initially. Eventually from A and B, they hope to have more representations of all schools of styles, such as Tang Lang, Pi gua, Ba Ji , Tong Bei, Ba Gua, etc. Swordplay or Dao and Jian Shu are limited and formulated already. All the southern boxing such as CLF, etc from the last 400 years are "lumped" or studied as Nan Quan already.

So there are 2 ways or paths. The old school preservation and improvement. The modern lumping and composite studies.

There are 3 forms or routes, which are A. B. C. mentioned above.

They are to involve more public and the rest of the world to study CMA.

And you may guess right.

I and many others old schoolers are always in the A from day 1.

Such as Cheng Ting Hua Ba Gua, Zhang Xiang San 7 stars and Liu He Tang Lang, Liu Yun Qiao Ba Ji and Pi Gua, etc

Edit: Dong Hai Zhuang->Cheng Ting Hua. Zhang Xiang San is linage holder of Ding Zhi Cheng' Liu He although Dang Xiang Ling, Liu Yun Qiao and many others also study Liu He with Ding etc.

Peace.

:)

Wang Rui Xuan

03-05-2005, 09:14 AM

Poorly planned, poorly written, obviously skewed!

In the beginning the author makes a case for the umbrella term ‘wushu’ being too broad, too confusing, and even in need of a name rectification. He references its long history of development in China and the current existence various ‘diversified sectors’ as creating confusion. He states that the term wushu is in need of more systematic and definitive analysis.

But after reading it I didn’t see anything more than pointless semantics, broad sweeping generalizations, out of context examples, and an in-conclusive conclusion.

Where in any of the entire article did the author draw clear distinctions between the various sectors existing within the umbrella term ‘wushu’. I noticed that in two occasions he made reference to wushu as representing a large multi-faceted science of sport, combat, health, medicine, philosophy, culture, and so on. But that is where it ended. Why didn’t he further examine and explore each one, the obvious ones being combat, sport, and health. Did the author achieve his quest of definitively addressing the various market components of wushu?

The conclusion was well….inconclusive. After stating in his introduction that the term wushu, was too broad, too confusing, and in need of ‘name rectification’, he concludes that the term ‘wushu’ is actually just fine as is. He says that it is impossible to separate wushu from it’s long history and multi-faceted phases of development. Did the author answer or address his original question? Doesn't look like it. Maybe I missed something.

Do you think the author:
a) Knows perfectly fine what the differences are but doesn’t say
b) Is a stakeholder in supporting and promoting international competitive wushu
c) Is a poor writer
d) All of the above

Best regards,
Wang Rui Xuan

Wang Rui Xuan

03-05-2005, 09:30 AM

Woflen is on his 'communist' rant again, and obviously keeping in tune with conventional political analysis. He references that anyone who doubts him and his crack China analysis 'just refer to weekly CNN or Time magazine'. That was classic stuff Wolfen!

Almost as good as our 'Western idea of equal opportunity and equal standards for all'. I'm guessing you won't be climbing the corporate ladder anytime soon. But keep beleiving!

Best regard,
Wang Rui Xuan

Brad

03-07-2005, 07:36 AM

An laoshi defenitely refers to all Chinese martial arts when saying "wushu". In fact, he's primarilly a traditionalist and doesn't seem to particularly care for the direction sport wushu has taken in recent years. Aparently, some of the old rules that kept it closer to traditional that An laoshi helped develop have been changed. So now rather than develop strong traditional basics the athletes are more like gymnasts.

I'd like to know more about the dates (i.e. pre and post 1949) and the leadership or bosses, of the development of modern Wushu in China, both the "Wushu gymnastic" and the "Wushu Composite" and whatever else can be categorized.
Were they lumping Wushu styles and modyfiing techniques for performance esthetics pre-1949?

I can give a very brief rundown, but it's hard to find too many specific details. I know two people who were competitors in the 1950's, and back then competitions were traditional wushu. In 1961 a standardized chang quan form was created for competition. Basically, this form was used as a qualifier and in the finals the athlete would use their traditional area of expertese. I'm not sure if there was any fighting competitions going on during this time. I know my teacher fought quite a bit with barehands and weapons, but I'm not sure if he did any of that competitively. When the cultural revolution hit, all wushu was banned except for a few people who were used as propaganda tools(and military/police, of course). I think Jet Li and some other youngsters were allowed to train and were taught by a select few high quality teachers. I think An Tian Rong and Ma Xian Da were both involved in training these kids and An laoshi's former classmate Pan Qing Fu was involved as a police officer of some kind. I'm not positive when An laoshi was teaching the kids or what his situation was like during this entire time. I've never bothered to ask. They ended up developing very very stong traditional basics, and would learn what a technique is suposed to be used for, but I doubt the government would've allowed them to learn any real fight training (officially at least). Though someone like Jet Li could handle himself ok, he's not really a fighter(by his own words). Wouldn't want their little stars to get hurt ;) After the cultural revolution died out all martial arts were allowed again though many chose (and still do choose) to keep anything application based secret for a select few or just let that part die out. I'd probably do that too if I'd been persecuted by my own government for practicing martial arts. Anyway, while some sport wushu continued to be close to its traditional roots(the first set of international compulsories was mostly straight up Cha Quan techniques, and An laoshi had students able to win with kick ass traditional baji), you also had all these guys now teaching wushu without application to the public. These no application guys go on to become coaches, judges, etc. and now everything in mainland sport wushu looks the same. A lot of the real traditional guys have moved elsewhere(like here in the U.S.) or been drivin from the sport like the other 1950's era competitor that I know. Now the rules are being changed because a bunch of people who don't know real wushu are now in charge. It got to a point where the athletes all had great basics and the forms were too hard to judge. So what do they do? Rather than make the forms more complicated and technique based they take the easy way out and come up with really difficult acrobatic moves that have nothing to do with anything. The last set of standardized international forms reinforced this idea scraping the superior technique of the previous sets and focusing on increasing physical difficulty(though my old classmates still found the old forms harder). Now there is no compulsory forms or even a standard uniform so it'll be interesting to see if some try to go back to basics developing their own unique styles or if they try to play catch up with China still and go for high difficulty moves. Personally, I've given up on forms competition stuff and I think An laoshi has pretty much retired from teaching those kinds of competition forms.

If you read it you can see the only concern is in winning competitions.
They practice for that moment they are before a judge watching their performance.
Things like "road work" are dismissed because they don't help jumpng and are a waste of time. He says "BIG WASTE OF TIME. We are doing martial arts but we are not in the Military."
You jump to conclusions. Everyone has their own training routine. For example, he says don't waste your time with running(I assume that's what you are refering to by "road work"?). My former classmates and the Beijing team both do LOTS of running. Everyone's different. A surprising number of U.S. wushu people I know spar. I actually know more modern wushu people who fight, than traditional kungfu people, lol. There's a lot of variation and different groups of people doing different things.

GeneChing

03-07-2005, 10:25 AM

Thank you, Brad, I was hoping that someone would recognize the name of the author, An Tianrong. And thank all of the rest of you for what is becoming a rather intriguing discussion. To be honest, I wasn't really that into this article, but I have such respect for Master An and he has another submission coming which we hope to publish this week, that relies on this one to set it up. Why wasn't I into it? Well, because I don't think you can 'rectify' language in America. Why did I still publish it? I publish plenty of articles that I'm not 'into' - that's what publishers do. We try to illicit dialog and progress the art. Now that this article has been so fruitful, I'm really into it and my respect for An Tianrong has increased even more.

As for my stance on this, I've always enjoyed modern wushu. I even dabbled in it during my college years. But I'm past the age where I can pursue it as a serious practice. What's more, I never possessed the kind of athleticism it requires. That being said, I've always felt that people who condemn wushu as a threat to traditional were just wimpy, myopic traditionalists. :eek: Sure, wushu was part of a government program and that government was communist. Sure, during the Cult. Rev. 30 years ago, the four olds were persucuted, inlcuding all arts, not just martial arts. And sure, things aren't the way they used to be. But there's room enough in the CMA world for all styles. There's room for traditional and there's room for sport wushu. There's even room for hippie tai chi (in fact, that's where the money is :p ). In America, the CMA world is very small when you compare it to the TKD world. We can grow in all directions. Now, I just went to the First World Traditional Wushu Festival in Zhengzhou last Oct. and there was plenty of traditional. That was not just from the over 2000 competitors (and even more observers) that came from all around the world to participate. It was also from many of the provincial teams. A lot of old masters came out - old masters who've probably never set foot out of China - and they had some very interesting traditional stuff. If you want to do something good for traditional martial arts, condemning wushu does nothing. It's mudslinging. It makes us all look bad. Better to go forth and represent. Don't tell me what the other lack. Show me what you got. There was a tremendous amount of exchange at that Trad. fest. Even if you don't beleive that traditional can still exist in PRC, there were traditionalists from outside exchanging skills. One could say that this is putting traditional back into China, but most of the exchange that I saw went the other way - it was non-PRC people finding their roots.

cam

03-07-2005, 11:01 AM

What exactly is Hippy Tai Chi, that's not a family style I'm aware of :D

PangQuan

03-07-2005, 11:02 AM

I like to look life from a scaled down perspective sometimes. As in the situation of traditionality in CMA dying off. I dont think this is possible. As with children and parents. The parent will never be able to completely control the child. There will always be things the child will do that the parent will never know, or be able to stop. We, as "the people", are our governments children. We are ruled, by and provided by our governments. Although they may set down the rules, it is entirely up to the individual as to how far they shall adhere to these rules.

You may drop a polished stone into the puddle of mud, though the stone is surrounded by filth, it in fact, is still a polished stone.

Being an American, it can sometimes be difficult to find this stone. Fortunately, it is possible for me to see the world as a whole on a level many other countries are not fully capable of. I find such joy in being able to take upon myslef studies of other cultures, and have at my disposal, so much of the literary works that the world, as a whole, has published into the public eyes.

It is through this method that I derive what I feel to be best for me. I personally do not like to stick to one side of the fence. I much like to walk along the top, able to gape at both sides. East and west combine and create a more satisfying whole. Old and new collide and create the picture of actuality.

I may live life rather phylisophically, yet at the same time I have a firm grasp of my surroundings and understand what it is I view.

Of course each and everyone of us are all led upon a path of deception within our lives. We can only hope that we are able to identify this path before it is too late. It is with this intuitive human nature, that will enable us to persevere through the times and hold onto what we most treasure. For some that treasure will be the traditional methods in which they were raised.

So, phylisophically, by this reasoning. (not saying it is true) It is impossible for traditional martial arts to die out.

SPJ

03-07-2005, 11:40 AM

I totally dig where Wolfen is coming from.

And agreed with Pang Quan.

During the culture revolution, there are only 10 plays allowed. They are called stereotype dramas or Yang Ban Xi. They were all about commie revolution. There is only book which is the little red book or Mao Yu Lu. All the other books were burned or banned.

True. Government is promoting Wushu to be like Judo or TKD into the Olympics.

Who cares?

MTV one or II may promote Britney or M&M. There are still many musicians writing and singing.

There is no way to say only Britney and M&M are singers allowed.

CMA or any arts are all from the people for the people.

Some like hip hop. I like beethoven, mozarts and bach.

You like Wush gym. I like my Chen Tai Ji.

So what?

:p

SPJ

03-07-2005, 09:20 PM

A link to a Wushu event last year.

Wushu comp 2004 (http://www.wushuchampionships.com/registration.php?content=divisions)

Qian Shu is spear.

Jian Shu is straight sword.

Dao Shu is broad sword.

Nan Quan is southern boxing.

Chang Quan is long boxing.

etc.

It is WU Shu comp.

And TCMA is not dead.

Peace.

:)

Wang Rui Xuan

03-07-2005, 11:43 PM

I don’t’ think it is an issue of WHO is promoting ‘modern wushu’. Nor is it an issue of WHICH is superior, traditional or modern wushu.

The key issue seems to be more of HOW 'modern' is being MARKETED by formal organizaitons and schools, in an OVER GENERALIZED manner.

From both sides I will say that there is an obvious a lack of understanding. But my own personal feeling is that there seems to be more confusion stemming from modern wushu groups. Personally I've seen a number of 'modern' teachers who for fear of loosing students and the monetary reprocussions fail to explain the differences between the two to their students. This in itself is producing more conrfusion.

In the end though dedicated students in either or who train hard and do thier homework know very well what the differences are. Lazy students in both traditional and modern wushu haven't got a clue. Egotistical knob heads will continue create confusion. We see a all types on this thread.

Personally I think both are great, but without a doubt they produce two completely different kinds of athletes with different skills sets. Just depends which one you want, and how bad you want it.

SPJ

03-08-2005, 08:11 AM

Too much idealogue may blind you the reality.

True. CCP wants to control every organization over 100 people.

True. CCP wants to survive in the ever changing so fast Chinese and global society in the 21 th century. And Vietnam, Cuba and north Korea are struggling.

The ideology is postponed indefinately by Deng.

Black cat, white cat? If it catches a mouse, it is a good cat.

The 4 insistences is window dressing. Everyone knows communism is dead and buried. The economy bankrupt China and hunger milions. The Great Leap Forward and Cultural revolution are lessons enough. The 4 gangs or Si Ren Bang already "tried" and "judged".

Everything takes time over the stability of 1.3 billion people.

CCP changed faster and faster then you can imagine.

Jiang 8 points are dismantled very quickly by Hu and Wen 4 points.

CCP and China are changing.

CCP tries to survive to continue the lead. But for how long? Nobody knows.

To change for everyone, not just CCP or China but Nafta, EU as well.

The globe is changing very fast.

The cold war mentality is outdated 30 years in China since 1976. Or After Mao passing.

---

SPJ

03-08-2005, 08:19 AM

Wushu is oked.

The Olympics in Berlin in the 30's. Chinese Kung Fu was demo.

How do you involve all of the world into Wushu? That is the big question.

We need a format.

The routines may evolve. The rules may be change.

We need a format or a platform to start.

It has to be easy in getting all countries interested. How many athletes or countries needed to get into the O?

If you take the high road of TCMA; such as years of training?

Who is going to do it? You and any other oceaners? Or no taker.

True. TCMA feels sold out.

It is like to hip hop or rap the bach and beethoven remix.

Once you have enough crowd, you may start to rebuild the TCMA pyramid.

This is called united fronts or Tong Yi Zhan Xien.

I have nothing against Wu Shu.

I see it as the initial easier step for all.

A small step in the right direction.

And it is not the only step.

Peace.

:D

Redfish

03-08-2005, 08:55 AM

I'm going with Wang Rui Xuan on this one. Parts of other ppl's posts make sense too.

The original article is without any kind of consistant point or direction. Wang Rui Xuan's summary says everything I would.

Modern Wushu people getting into discussions about the semantics and the meaning of 'wushu' basically descend into this logic: I call my apple an 'orange', therefore it IS an orange.

Name rectification could help.

Modern Wushu: "Themed floor gymnastics based on Chinese Martial Arts".
Kung Fu: Use any of the names discussed in this thread.

Also 'Sanda' is interesting. The Wushu Federation starts an official kickboxing organisation and competition circuit, calls it "Sanda" and then starts saying it's a component of Modern Wushu (regardless of if they practise it) and that it's related to the old day's free fighting becuase the name is the same - back to the apples and oranges.

I know it was meant to be light hearted but this comment tickled me the most from the debate so far by Gene:

"That being said, I've always felt that people who condemn wushu as a threat to traditional were just wimpy, myopic traditionalists"

Wimpy traditional kung fu guys. Is that opposed to bad ass killing machines from modern wushu?

Also, there's the assumption again, that "Modern Wushu" is the same thing as "traditional", one is the modern version of the other.

Must add that the "Commie" stuff is amusing. Arthur Miller died recently. How sad for him that people are still stuck on McCarthyism 50 years on.

In the context of it being marketed as a replacement for, or evoloution of, actual kung fu I gotta say this. The day 'wushu' goes truly global in the olympics is a sad day for Chinese Martial Arts and a slap in the face for 2000+ years of continuous Chinese culture.

GeneChing

03-08-2005, 10:33 AM

I know it was meant to be light hearted but this comment tickled me the most from the debate so far by Gene: "That being said, I've always felt that people who condemn wushu as a threat to traditional were just wimpy, myopic traditionalists" Wimpy traditional kung fu guys. Is that opposed to bad ass killing machines from modern wushu? Well, I hope most things discussed on the forum are lighthearted. After all, it's just a forum. If you find yourself foaming at the mouth on some point, you need to take a break from the forum. That being said, I stand by that point - there are plenty of wimpy, myopic traditionalists. A lot of CMA people hide behind the notion of 'traditionalism' for lazy practice. Now I'm not saying that all of tehm are like that, but you'd have to be blind not to notice how many people claim to be traditional and their kung fu sucks. For me, it's about the kung fu, in the literal sense of the word. It's about how much work, how much time and effort, go into the practice. Good wushu takes a lot of kung fu. How's that for name recitification? :p

wolfen, you got some issues with communism, eh? I don't really see wushu as some communist plot. What do they have to gain? Aren't there other problems that are more pressing in China, like the mind control of 1.3 billion people?

PangQuan

03-08-2005, 10:45 AM

"Good wushu takes a lot of kung fu."

This is exactly how I view this subject. The nail on the head Gene, the nail on the head.

Kristoffer

03-08-2005, 03:14 PM

He said: ''Good wushu takes a lot of kung fu.''
Scroll up a few pages and try to understand the meaning of the term Wushu and Gong Fu. Moron

norther practitioner

03-08-2005, 03:17 PM

What's the usage for those kung fu that cannot be applied in the real world?

What is in an application?

GeneChing

03-08-2005, 04:53 PM

Good painting takes a lot a kung fu. Good guitar playing takes a lot of kung fu. What's the application in that? NP has a great point, here.

Don't get me wrong. I firmly believe in good applications. But I often find the definition imposed on applications to be very limiting. It's that myopia again, but this time a general martial myopia, not a wimpy traditional one. Application of kung fu or wushu is more than just being able to win a fight in an alley. What about internal fights, like the fight against cancer? I know plenty of cases where tai chi people have advocated tai chi as a therapeutic practice. Are those practitioners going to be good at push hands? Probably not. But then again, they might be 'pushing' against a far greater opponent than any push hands partner we'll ever face. So what if competitive wushu is just dance? You know, last weekend I paid good money, just to see dance. There were dancers from Bali, Korea, Poland, Brazil and the Ivory coast. And they had some great kung fu.

PangQuan: Maybe I should write an article titled 'the kung fu of wushu'. That would confuse them, eh?

wolfen: Clearly there is government influence in modern wushu. The whole thing was set up to allow different provinces, with different styles, an even playing field. But I really don't see such a conspiracy as you do. Government mind control through martial arts? That's too much of a reach. There's plenty of traditional still in China. It's the tourist that only see the wushu and never get past it to the traditional. But those old traditionalists, the ones we so venerate, our forefathers, they were hard core. It would take more than the Cultural Revolution to bring them down. If a tradition is real and meaningful, no power on earth can end it.

YouKnowWho: Here's where name reticification gets tricky - sanda is by its very definition, a form of modern wushu.

Kristoffer: Now, now, no need to call some one a moron just because they didn't bother to read the thread. Be nice. ;)

omarthefish

03-08-2005, 05:55 PM

I tried to read it all....really. But I got bogged down on page 4 when the pasts started getting REALLY long and I couldnt see any new points being made or views being introduced anyways, just huge reiterations of the same views arguing back and forth.

I think Wolfen is indeed on a bit of a "rant" about commuism and a lot of people seem to be perpetuating some of th most common myths about wushu and it's history in China.

The idea that the reds have had any kind of systemic plot to supress traditional martial arts is laughable indeed. The idea that the commies created the "governement system" of wushu is also patently false. And it is alos not really true that "communism" is completely black and white and a country can simply not be "85%" communist. I'll start with communism.

You obviouly can't put a number to it and say how comunist/totalitarian a country is but you can look at massive reforms and show that China is already only communist in name only. Domestically, the market is freer than in America. The main issues are international and also that oh so "free-market" capitalist idea called intelectual property. In quotes because that is clearly a government controll on the market. The true "free market" would have no copywrite protection at all. That's pretty much what it looks like here. There's also no real workers rights. Companies can dismiss workers or refuse to pay them pretty much at whim. That's how free the market is. It's funny to me that most of the reforms wanted are basically socialist reform. The PRC is all to free-market. There's hardly any controls on anything at all. . . let alone Wushu.

Wushu was not created by the PRC. Just look at the dates. "New Wushu" was first established in the republilcan era. Ma Lian created a program of boxing and traditional shuai jiao as an exercise program for the army in 1911. By 1914 his program had expanded to include all sorts of traditional styles and by 1917 the government made it the official h2h for the army. At this time is was called, "zhong hua xin wushu" (Chinese New Wushu). The first government instituted wushu school system was established in 1914. There were schools in a connected system across China with branches in Shanghai, Shandong, Jiangsu and many other provinces.

Huo Dian Ge's school, Jing Wu Men also recieved government suport and eventually evolved to become a new standard for the govt. system.

Then later there was the National Martial Arts Acadamy (Nanjing Guoshu Guan) in Nanjing famous for national full contact competitions. This was run by KMT folks. Zhang Zhe Jian was in charge and the top teachers there included several of Li Shuwen's disciples. General Zhang Xiang Wu (who later fought against the communists) was involved as well.

By the time the communists took power in '49 traditional wushu was already pretty dead. The government system jsut dried up and blew away from lack of resources during the Japanese invasion. Then later the PRC tried to re-establlish a government program but this time not through the military but through the national department of physical education.

I have to go to work soon so I don't have much time to go into detail but basically they looked around in 1953 and tried to collect as many "masters" from the general population as they could and make some kind of decisions about what the program should look like. The "National Wushu Association" (zhong guo wushu xie hui) was established in 1958 and the first national competition was held in 1959.

Now during all this time and in the years that followed traditional wushu was not so much supressed as simply not supported. And the standard term in China is not "government" vs "traditional" it's "university" vs. "among the people" (xueyuan vs ming jian) But all the goverment schools (xueyuan) originally got their teachers from the traditional circles (ming jian). It is only in the past couple generations of students that you have the graduates of the universities taking posts teaching and....I am out of time.

There are some somewhat complicated reasons for the evolution towarsd "flower pot" wushu but it really isn't government directed.

SPJ

03-08-2005, 09:12 PM

What are the challenges facing CCP;

There is this tumor or cancer growing and growing.

It is called corruption. Money corrupts people from the street all the way up the political or military ladders.

Everyone knows about it. Nobody seems to know how to deal with it.

Rule of laws.

They started to set up more laws and judiciary system.

How to police or enforce the laws?

Corruption will bring down a lot of things.

CORRUPTION!

Power ultimately comes from the people or the mass.

Any politician or political party knows about this. You have to keep the majority of the people happy. They are your power base.

There is no one like Stalin, Lenin or Mao to sway the mass one way or the other any more.

Peace.

:rolleyes:

omarthefish

03-09-2005, 02:00 AM

Well I can see that my post was completely ignoreed.

Wolfen:

You are on a major rant and seem to be blaming everything from elevator music to plaid polyester suits on communism buy I'll attempt to respond a but anyways.

Since when were there any elections in china since 1949?

Off topic.

Local elections have been in place in China for a long time. That's how their sytem works. The poeple elect the local leaders and then the local leaders elect the leaders one step above them and so on. I am at a complete loss as to what this has to do with the state of Wushu today.

The masses have not had any power since they were tricked into handing it over to their leaders in 1949.

ARe actually trying to suggest that "the people" had any power whatsoever previous to 1949?

Then as they have control of the Wushu organizations, they just present their own false sanitized Wushu and pretend it is 2000 year old traditional.

This is something you made up on your own. The CCP exercises no more control over Wushu organizations than the British or American govt. exercises over any western atheletic oringazations. Can you present any examples at all of how the CCP has suppressed traditional wushu? You're just going off on your rant again here. I've had dinner with presidents and board members of city and provincial Wushu associations and met and spoke with teachers at wushu universities. There's just nothing to this theory of yours. There are many reasons why wushu has become the way it had but communism is not a relevant cause except in the way it has effected society as a whole.

So if I am wrong, please provide me with the names of the provincial and national Wushu organizations that are NOT under the control of the Government. i.e. the organizations that do not have a memeber of the CCP on their governing board monitoring their activies.

This is the part that you get confused on. The CCP has a vested interest in monitoring the activities of ANY large group. This includes Wushu. But this is a POLITICAL interest. As long as they don't go forming political parties, trying to influence government policy or organizing protest marches they do whatever the hell they want. It has nothing to do with promoting flowery useless wushu and everything to do with the other actually real facet of govt control, the prevention of the formation of political parties other than the CCP.

The rest of that very long post I can't make much sense of. It just reads like a rant against Gene, Brad, Stalin and anything else you can think of.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

But that is mostly the story within the box. I would like to know more about how the box was shaped and controlled by the Government.
What organizations were created by the Government?
Who got the orders?What was the funding from the Government?
When it happpened?
What they were asked to do and how they did it?
... The story from the top, How the Wushu Box was created.
You did give a little of that..

I gave a lot more but you ignored it in favor of continuing to rail against communism.

I had originally intended to go on to explain why I think Wushu has evolved the way it has but the red scare is so loud in here I don't think I will be heard above the din.

Redfish

03-09-2005, 02:04 AM

Gene

As you go on to say yourself your idea about 'needing good kungfu for wushu' isn't really relevant to the wushu = kung fu debate.

Just becuase someone works hard to develop skill in gymnastics doesn't mean that gymnastics is Martial Arts.

I know your involved in the Shaolin Temple scene. Doesn't it bother you that the Mecca of kung fu is occupied by circus performers and modern wushu? What's your take on that? I remember Jet Li writing on his website that when they turned up to film Shaolin Temple in '81 that there were only 2 ppl there, a squatter and a cleaner, but a lot of the people there now claim they've been there for 60 years etc. What's going on with that?

omarthefish

03-09-2005, 05:23 AM

I see where your problem is. An inability to see subtleties. That's wierd.

The numbers for totalitarian are either Zero or 100%. There is no in-between.

If that is true, then America is a totalitarian government.

If it is not total it is not a dictatorship.

And by that definition China is not a dictatorship. There are free elections at the local level. Chinese leaders are technically elected. The system is more free than day....pre-invasion Iraq.

The political control is either absolute or it is not.

So once again, acoording to your own definition, China is a free country. The Tiananmen massacre proves my point.

I'm going to use italics to save space in the post,

Name a single business or political organization over 100 people that does not have a member of the CCP on its governing board?

Completely irrelevant to the issue of Wushu. Name a single policy regarding the way marital arts are trained that has been enforced by said CCP officials.

If China is not a dictatorship then lets see someone wear a ROC flag on their jacket. How long before they disappear?

ROC? Republic of China? What flag is that? Do you mean a KMT thing? Clarify for me and I'll give you an answer.

Or better yet, have a Chinese person go to the PSB and ask for a record of all trials and executions and court transcripts for the last 5 years in that city? See if they even come back.

Again. completely and utterly irrelevant to the question of the influence of the CCP on wushu. Furthermore since your definition states that there are only 100% dictatorships or not I have already "proved" according to the requirements YOU set forth that China is NOT a dictatorship OR a totalitarian country. This is YOUR definition not mine. All I have to do is site a single example of political freedom or lack of government control and it fails the test.

Put a single flower on Tiananmen Square and you will be arrested, Chinese or Froreigner.
If you are foreigner at least someone willl know what happened to you.

Burn a US flag on the white house lawn.....

Dictatorship is total political and subsequently economic control.
To that effect China is 100 percent a dictatorship.

Wrong, wrong, wrong. You set up an argument that you can't support. Control in China is not total politically and FAR from total economically. They only controll key industries and guess what...so do many NON-communist European countries. Do you even have a clue what parts of the economy are govt. controlled in China? Startlingly few at present.

People have a storybook dea of what dictatorship means.
They think of tanks, public executions, torture and Big Brother watching you eat breakfast.

I am using the definition YOU provided. According to your own definition, China is not a dictatorship. I never actually made that claim. I am only applying your own standard.

Dictatorship by definition gives political control to it "dogs", it's "warlords" to do as they like.

By definition? Site a reference.

Ask any Chinese their political opinions.
The answer is universally the same.
They don't have any.
They don't think about that.
It's suicide to have political opinions.

Wrong again. I [b]have[/i] discussed politics with local Chinese. Even Chinese politics. I also hear the old ****s in the part where I work out talking abotu politics. They think about this stuff all the time. You are painting a cartoon of China. Shame on you.

The only one thing is clear...the net effect of this sytem on people's lives in China is a grinding misery.

What Fox broadcast did you pull that one off. Strangely, I was under the impression you had actually been here. I better tell my GF that she is in fact not living comfortably in a spacious apartment with an internet connection that lets in international news and a nice job that pays well enough she could live without my help. I better also let her retired mother know that the life she lives in an apartment that is already paid for and privately owned and has a sufficient pension to live modestly without fear of poverty that she too is living in grinding misery. I need to make sure and let all the teachers at the school I work at that when they go on vacation to other provinces during the May holiday and over the summer that they are not enjoying the benifits of their job but in fact living in grinding misery. I need to let my 1000+ students know that they hours they spend on thge weekend at internet bars playing coutnerstrike are in fact grinding misery. Same for my Sifu, my friend David who is on his way to Hong Kong to open an investment account so he can invest in some stock internationally and all the other people I know driving cars, owning their own businesses, buying flats and many more that they are just living in the grinding misery of a brutal dictatorship.

Your a loon.

The more you could live in China and the more you can understand and the more whispered confidences you hear the more it will sink in.

When exactly will it sink in? IN another 5 years? 10? 25? Maybe it's like "internal power" and you have to train for decades before you really understand. How many "whispered confidences" am I supposed to hear? I've heard a few. Probably more than you think but your the expert on the typical Chinese lifestyle here. Tell me...when will it "sink in"?

Only the truly immoral and insensitve could be blind to the effects of this sytem.

Perhaps. That's not really an argument you've put there, just sort of an implied ad hominem and it suggests some assumptions that are false...unless you weren't actually directing it at me.

omarthefish

03-09-2005, 05:39 AM

I'm glad the Government Control is laughable but I am curious to know how hard everyone is laughing?

I never said that. You made that up. What I said was:
The idea that the reds have had any kind of systemic plot to supress traditional martial arts is laughable indeed. [/i]?

[quote]Most masters of exceptional kungfu talent have built up national and devout followings in a very short time in America.

Relevance? Even if it's true, which I don't believe, it's irrelevant to the situation in China. I could also point to numerous "masters" with vastly more skill in marketing than in gong fu and THEY are the ones building up reps in short order. You are now equating commercial success with gong fu skill.

Do you believe that commercial success is a good indicator or skill in martial arts?

If the Government did not develop and control Wushu since 1949 can you tell me the names of the exact people and organiztions of those who did?

Once again, at a loss for a rebuttal you have chosen instead to simply change the statement. I stated quite clearly that the government developed Wushu sonce 1949. YOU added the controll part. They controlled the system that they paid for and developed. What's wrong with that? Doesn't the US government controll the public schools?

Actually in fact you do admit the goverment controlled and created Wushu after 1949.
You even say they did it badly and in an incompetent manner.

No. I DID say that they created a national system after 1949. I have consistently refuted the idea that they controlled anything beyond their own government system. I have also NOT yet made any statements on they competence or if it was a bad or good system.

There is no proof Wushu was dead before 1949.

Yes. There is. You are wrong.

It is more likely that pre-1949 Wushu was highly effective.

I agree. So?

It was more likely that Communism killed Wushu after 1949 as communism has the well earned reputation of turning a paradise into a desert and then losing the desert.

This is again...false. It is not "more likely". It is a historical fact that the Chinese government closed it's national schools and cancelled funding for the new wushu during the Japanese invasion.

But thank you anyway for the pre-1949 history. It would make sense that in those times of civil war the governments concerned would develop a strong and effective Martial Arts program.

At least we can be friendly on this part.

Or would it be more truthful to say that any real traditional teachers in China now tell their students to practice in secret.
Don't you think so?.

Yes. But not for the same reasons as you are implying.

Kristoffer

03-09-2005, 06:14 AM

wolfen just got stomped on like a flower on Tianmen square

I think this thread needs a new turn. It was originally about a name change and we were discussing the terms and how martial artist contra non martial artist view these terms/names.

I gave a lot more but you ignored it in favor of continuing to rail against communism.

I had originally intended to go on to explain why I think Wushu has evolved the way it has but the red scare is so loud in here I don't think I will be heard above the din.

Please go on about this, I'm sure most who reads this thread and myself is more interested in this than about this commie rant. btw I must say your knowledge about the forming of modern Wushu is impressive, or maybe it's just me who knows very little about the subject.

SPJ

03-09-2005, 08:22 AM

Hi;

I started another thread about the name change.

Gym Wushu, sports Wushu or combat Wushu or Yang Shen Shu etc?

Politics, power and people.

The power comes from the people.

If a leader is in tune with people needs, he or she will be called the people's hero or heroin.

If a leader is all for himself and herself and disregards the needs of the people, he or she will be called a criminal of the people.

Everything will come in time.

A tyrannt will not last. A wise leader or Ming Jun will be loved and remembered.

People will endure. People will overcome.

Sleepy dragons are awakening.

:)

SPJ

03-09-2005, 08:29 AM

Here is an example.

While I was in Las Vegas, I was told that a CCP official lost a lot of money in Vegas. And that is the record in Vegas history ever.

He or she just walked away without a fuss.

Apparently, the money may be government funds or public money.

I was asked what do I think?

I said all in due time.

At the present, he or she has the political power. Nobody said anything.

However, the power comes and goes.

When he or she and his or her people lost power in the party, he or she will be examined with ample evidence. He or she will lose everything, name and possibly life, too.

I do not support any individual or political party.

I am only reporting events by events.

Sorry about the confusion.

Justice will come. The righteous will endure. The evils are doomed to fall.

All in due time.

Or even the worst may have his or her day but that will not last.

:cool:

omarthefish

03-09-2005, 04:04 PM

If anyone wish to challenge me that China is not a dictatorship and there is a not an enormous and refined propaganda machine in place I can go on for months finding articles discussing China's dictatorship and how propaganda and mind control techniques are used to maintain that dictatorship.
...
Just in case anyone should think I am the only "loon"in the world.
...

You already lost that challenge when you presented your definition of a dictatorship. I have already "proved" China is not a dictatorship according to your own standards!

This is what makes you a loon.

Other looney bits:

Posts that are so long they need to be split into 3 parts but they don't even adress the people they are allegedly responding too.

Consistant, repetitive responses to arguments and statements that have not been made. This makes it look like you are arguing with yourself.

Ridiculous claims like the one you just made that you visited and spoke with 100's of Wushu Universities and MA teaches across China.

Stubborn refusal to acknoledge that "before 1949" includes various time periods with different political and economic conditions.

Your inability to distinguish the early republican era with the time of the Japanese invasion for example makes it impossible to discuss the topics with you. All I can realy do is dismiss you as a frothing at the mouth nut.

omarthefish

03-09-2005, 04:09 PM

Please go on about this, I'm sure most who reads this thread and myself is more interested in this than about this commie rant. btw I must say your knowledge about the forming of modern Wushu is impressive, or maybe it's just me who knows very little about the subject.

Sorry.

I got sucked in. I have to go to work again but I promise not to argue about communism any more on this thread. If he hadn't quoted you I would have just totally missed your response. It got buried in the full page of text from the ranting.

SPJ

03-09-2005, 06:57 PM

I promised not to post anything political at the current time.

Power and people.

CCP power was supported by the farmers. There are over 80% Chinese population FARMERS.

CCP supposed to be Gong Long Bin or workers, farmers and soldiers united.

The rights and conditions of the farmers and workers need a lot of attention.

The soldiers were poorly treated in culture revolution and even in Deng's era.

Now the treatments are improved.

Wolfen worries about communist ideology.

The ideology was bankrupted 30 years ago.

In its place, it is to look at the money or Qian Qien Kang.

There are no religions or morals, just find ways to dig money.

That is why the corruption was so rampant even worse than the years under KMT rule.

That is why everyone looked to Fa Lung Gong for salvations.

If you are still chanting Mao Yu LU or cultural revolution slogans, people will
consider you nuts.

I am no CCP supporter.

I just like to point out that corruption is the lethal problem facing China today.

And not communist ideology.

I shut up now.

:D

omarthefish

03-10-2005, 01:30 AM

Wolfen is having such a hard time defending his position he had decided to threaten me in real life instead. :rolleyes:

I just recieved this private message:

If someone insult me to my face I attack them instantly.

I take it as attempt to bully me.
----------------

I take your insults as a challenge to me.

I accept your challenge.

Don't worry about where and when.

I will find you.

I'm shaking in my boots....and off of this thread. But just to make it easy for you:

Omar Belove
Xi'an, south side
Shaanxi Province
local phone: 13572253057

I'm currently employed at the Xidian Middle school.

Redfish

03-10-2005, 02:41 AM

I sympathise with Omar here. However, when you read those posts, what's the point of trying to reason with it?

Also, Omar, you picked a good example of how the names of the political systems dont reflect the country's behaviour by looking at the USA. How can anyone say China is worse than another country for threatening to invade Taiwan when the USA steamrollers into countries all the time, Iraq right now. The USA also uses the police and economic controls in society to oppress large sections of it's population and it's elections are just a money flashing contest - the word for the USA is a plutocracy. But each country's politcal structure is unique and it doesn't help to generalise - especially not with outrageous cold war era stereotypes.

BUT - by going into the USA's bad points it sounds like we are implying that it justifies the many bad things that the Chinese government do also.

In those cases both countries are pretty terrible - but as Omar says, if you go to China it's clear that it's not so black and white.

The best thing is not to bother replying to stuff like that.

Also, I love to read net-threats :)

Kristoffer

03-10-2005, 04:46 AM

Sorry.

I got sucked in. I have to go to work again but I promise not to argue about communism any more on this thread. If he hadn't quoted you I would have just totally missed your response. It got buried in the full page of text from the ranting.

Know what u mean :)
If you'd care to make a new thread about it I'd look in to it. But I can see u bein busy now. btw there's a documentary about the situation in China and their economic platform tonight, after reading this thread I think I'll catch it.

omarthefish

03-10-2005, 06:55 AM

You'l find my response here: http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=35835

SPJ

03-10-2005, 08:03 AM

About sanitation in Bei Jing.

It was the capital in several dynasties. In the recent past, it was the capital of Qing.

As a capital, there were and still are many TCMA folks residing from all over China.

Ba Gua Zhang, Tong Bei Quan started at Niun Je or cow streets in Bei Jing, Shuai Jiao, Wu and Yang Tai Ji, Chuo Jiao on and on.

It would be nice to see CMA activity in the Olymics in 2008.

Part of the city was very old. They are building modern toilettes all over the city to acommodate the tourists and athletes.

Personally, Olympics are greek MA sports, such as archery, horsemanships, running, all these are required activity in MA in ancient Greece.

I fancy that one day China should start all his MA matches as well and call them Bei Jing pics etc.

Why fit 2000 to 5000 years CMA activity into a narrower Greek event?

We may have Moslem or Mongolian Shuai Jiao instead of Judo, archery on horseback, on and on.

And call them Bei Jing pic.

Just a thought.

Bei Jing pic will be so much bigger than Wushu.

:D

GeneChing

03-10-2005, 12:15 PM

Lordy, miss one day and there's a death match on a locked thread. :rolleyes:

Our official policy on threats and challenges is that we cannot support them. I'd really hate to see our forum get sued because someone with a big mouth got his ass whupped. Now mind you, as a martial artist, I believe a good ass whuppin' is not only entertaining, but a necessary instructional tool. But as admin to this forum, I cannot condone this behavior. I've enjoyed both wolfen's and omarthefish's posts on this thread, but please curtail your challenges. Please take it outside.

Now back to the topic at hand. To me, the corruption of a communist system and wushu's communist origin are two different subjects. First of all, corruption. All governments are corrupt. I've never been to any country where there wasn't evidence of corruption. China may be more corrupt in America, but many Chinese beleive America is more corrupt. I'm not one to judge frankly. Remember that Mao's intention was for communism to evolve to democracy - it just never made it. But considering that the PRC followed millenia of dynastic rule, it's a step in the right direction. Or better said, the left direction. I'm not sure that America made it to 'true' democracy either, especially with our recent shift towards the right. It always confuses me in Asia when I hear that North Korea is the 'democratic' Korea - talk about name rectification. You must understand the theoretic connection between communist and democratic ideals. You gotta know your lefts and rights. I don't think they work in actualization. But I digress. Corruption is a predictable consistant result of the combination of humanity and power. Do you think that communism is intrisically more prone to corruption than capitalism and if so, why? Are all commies corrupt?

On to wushu's communist origins. Now I've read Mao and while I don't agree with many of his conclusions, I've gleaned some useful ideas from his work. I've read Macheivelli too and would say the same. Just because the origin might be 'corrupt', that doesn't invalidate the method. There is still much to be learned.

To me, kung fu is exactly that - skills. It reminds me of my current fav quote now 'numbchuk skills, bow hunting skills, computer hacking skills' ;) Kung fu is about gleaning more skills. You can glean them from forms. You can glean them from fighting. You can glean them from carrying water and chopping wood. Im my practice, I try my best to absorb skills from shaolin and xingyi. I try to do the same from every art, be it bjj, kenpo, cardiokickboxing or wushu. It's just like reading Mao for me. There is always something of value to be learned, even if it's how 'not to do it'. It's not about the style. It's about skills.

omarthefish

03-10-2005, 05:20 PM

I'm going to attempt to express my views here and give what historical stuff I can. Anyone with historical corrections feel free to pitch in. This is just a summary as best as I understand it and hardly comprhensive or conclusive.

I left off explaining that I personally don't feel that PRC controll per se has much to do with the so called decline in wushu standards. But that needs some clarification. Obviously the CCP has been in charge so in that way they are responsable. What needs to be made clear is that there has been no systemic program that I can dig up to "castrate" CMA. I think you can roughly divide CCP wushu into 3 periods:

1. Establishment of "New China" in 1949
2. 1966 - 1972
3. 1972 - present

I'm sorry. I left out the early period in the 50's but I'm tired of typing. Basically they established some goals like health, good PR for the country etc and put a national program in place....more on that later if anyone’s interested. It's not too relevant to todays situation because it was all pretty well destroyed in the Cultural Revolution. My main point here is that the CCP was very supportivve of Wushu in the early days.

edit: Coach Ross's article here: http://chinwan.com.ar/ross1.htm has some excellent stuff about half way down on how the CCP took over wushu.

My main belief is that by standardizing wushu it became frozen in time and ceased to develope. The division of Sanshou and Forms into separate categories is what did it. By breaking everything down into different subjects with no pre-requisite link, the forms training was disconnected from it’s original purpose and forms became a goal in and of themselve. They have always had an aspect related to giving performances but no one used to train just to give performances. A fighter could be asked to "demonstrate" his art and that didn't always been killing someone. It could have meant doing a form, the equivalent of "show us a few moves..."

To be quite honest, most of the PRC Sanshou fighters are much better fighters than most American gong fu school fighters so I have a hard time calling the system a total failure. Most. They still have no signifigant MMA talent and if you broaden the rules just a bit beyond Sanshou or just compare not to the typical American kung fu fighter but to the top pro fighters in the country from any style…the advantage for the Chinese fades away. I think you need to remember though that they’ve really only had the system in place for about 30 years and it has been truly full contact for much less than that...20 years maybe? I forget when they got rid of the safety gear.

Cultural Revolution - I don't think I can possible add anything to what everyone has heard on this but relevant to the discussion I think it's worth pointing out that the very signifigant damage done to traditional martial arts during that time was "collateral damage". Incidental and not intentional. In other words, there was an intense political battle going on and Mao created this monster in order to win one of his power struggles but it just makes me laugh to see anyone argue that wushu was a target. I hate to break it to you guys but gong fu is a fringe element in Chinese society. It was never that important to most people. In those years in the late 60's and early 70's people had much bigger things on their mind than stamping out traditional martial arts.

I'd love to see anyone present a thesus of why it was important that wushu specifically practical wushu be stamped out in order to further the cause of modernization.

1972 – Present. It's very tempting to start the 3rd period in 1987 because that is really the first time the CCP took any serious action to restore the national system, but I have to think the official beggining was in 1972. In 1972 Zhou Enlai personally announced teh revival of wushu programs along with various other physical education type programs.

The problem was, the national system had been shattered, most traditional teachers had gone into hiding and no one really knew how to re-create the old system. In 1982, the National Physical Education Commitee held the first national conference on wushu work responsabilities in Beijing. They came up with an 11 point program for restoring and developong wushu. This was the first time since the 50's that the subject of wushu had ever even been adressed at a national level and they still took no actualy action. They basically came up with a 10 year program.

The system was finnaly unified in 1987. That's right, it wasn't untill 1987 that there was a national wushu administration. Before that things were done at the local or provincial level. Official standards and policies were issued in 1994.

In that period from the mid 70's - the 90's there were various policies issued for the purpose of recovering traditional styles and attempting to codify and preserve what was basically an oral tradition. There were also a growing number of "friendship and communications" tournaments and various international performing troupes. Remember one of the expressed goals for wushu back in the 50's was to spread its popularity overseas and a movement to make it an olympic sport started as far back as the late 80's...give me some time and I can find the exact year it was proposed.

omarthefish

03-10-2005, 05:23 PM

... Please take it outside...

That's why I started a separate thread for it special. :)

Brad

03-10-2005, 10:50 PM

Good posts omar, I'm glad there was something interesting on this last page, because I missed most of the middle posts (skimmed a couple pages) :P (though it doesn't seem I really missed much at all). I'll have to let my teacher know when I see him next that a thread about his article resulted in someone snapping and making a scary stalker threats :D

Kristoffer

03-11-2005, 05:13 AM

Nice read Omar I appreciate it

GeneChing

03-11-2005, 11:50 AM

That's why I started a separate thread for it special. I meant outside the forum. ;) Nice post above tho...

Brad: Master An knows about this thread. In fact, another of your classmates contacted me who wanted to contribute to this debate, but was having problems signing up. Also, Master An's article Wushu needs Name Rectification (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/ezine/article.php?article=581) is just the first. We'll be publishing a follow-up article by him, co-authored by Master Aiping Cheng, next week. That should put out the fire...with gasoline. ;)

Speaking of gasoline, something I'd like to bring up in this discussion is the the old 'wushu is no good for fighting' notion. The concept of flowery fists and embroidered legs precedes wushu, although I've yet to find an original source for this comment. Many traditional forms have moves that are useless for combat. In the Bak Sil Lum (northern Shaolin) system that I studied, one of the forms has a one-handed cartwheel into splits. BSL is considered by most to be traditional kung fu - in fact, it's rise is connected to the Republic of China and the famous Nanjing tournament, so you can't say it's communist at all. Now you could project some sort of martial application to such a manuever, but in truth, a cartwheel to splits is about as effective for fighting as an aerial. Most traditionalist argue that such non-combative moves served one of two purposes: 1. that it was calesthenic or qigong related or 2. that the move was modified to hide the actual application from spies and such who would steal moves.

I never mastered that **** cartwheel into splits just like I never mastered the aerial.

GeneChing

03-14-2005, 01:28 PM

Hi Gene. You study Mao thought!! It seems the wrong person was labelled an Ideologist!!! I knew you'd bite at that. I didn't say I 'study Mao thought' - I said I read Mao. Surely you've read Mao. It's plain idiotic to argue for or against anything if you haven't actually read it. That would be too absurd. I read the little red book, as everyone who studies China must. Mao's comments on the Art of War were fascinating, especially considering what he acheived as a strategist. But I didn't study them. I couldn't quote from either work unless they were right in front of me. To be honest, the only standout memories I have of the little red book are Mao's thoughts on blacks in America and his 'ideal' goal of transition to democracy which when read, can easily be seen as a problematic. I go out of my way to read 'blacklisted' and banned books. It's my right as an American to read what America tries to ban (and that's not too much anymore). Most of it should be banned. Of course, things like child porn should be banned, but that's very different than a manifesto. I wouldn't support banning something like Justine, for example. But some banned books, and I'd even venture to say more of it lately, is revolutionary in a way that it threatens the 'banners' but benefits the rest. It benefits them but it never fits me. Indeed, to not engage a works such as Mao is to fall victim to the very sort of mind control that you attribute to goverment wushu. Democracy only works if the literati take advantage of it. What good is democracy if your population makes uninformed decisions? So it's possible to read the works of someone like Mao, not be swayed, but still glean something useful. It's possible to read anything and not be swayed. Just look at this forum. I read your posts. I don't study them. I'm not swayed. Not yet. But keep posting, and I'll let you know.

I am curious if you think our website might be plagued with communist spyware.

GeneChing

03-14-2005, 03:01 PM

I'm sorry you are so offended. Actually, I wasn't offended in the least. I was flattered. I wish I had more time to study Mao. And Machevelli. And Sun Tzu. I wish I had more time to study the classics in general. Isn't that what being traditional is all about?

Please do not "shut up". I fear you misread me completely. I'm just playing Devil's Advocate here for the most part. If you review my posts, you'll find that this is my standard strategy. It's mostly to keep this thread alive until we post the next article by Master An (with Aiping Cheng). As I stated earlier, I'm thoroughly enjoying your posts. I think you might be scaring others away with your 'rabidity' but I'm still with you and what more do you need really? ;)

One of my points behind bringing up the whole 'freedom of speech' issue with the works of Mao is this - if we were totalitarian, we'd ban Mao. But we're not. We're capitalist, so as long as someone can make a little cash on selling his book, America is cool with that. Certainly some things are bad enough to ban, even in America, but not Mao, not the little red book. By the same fashion, if we were totalitarian, we'd ban wushu. Is that what you're suggesting? Is wushu so evil that it must be banned?

omarthefish

03-14-2005, 04:45 PM

Can't be bothered to anything more than skim a rant that long. Wolfen should take note from Mao and present his ideas in short simple phrases that are easy to understand. :p

This little bit jumped out at me thought because I have laughed at the poor choice of words here in many NON-governmental departments:

http://www.sport.gov.cn/

Theire interests run from everything to promoting health to suppression of radical sports groups (qigong groups and others) to propaganda and every aspect in which Sports can impact upon the Social order.

Very specificallythere is a department forthrightly labelled the Propaganda Department. It has a very extensive scope and range of written policies.

That would be "xuan chuan". In America we call that "Public Relations". Exactr same department, same responsabilities etc. Like most private corporations also have a "propoganda department" and they are completely oblivious to the sting that word has in English. They just looked in a dictionary and that's what they came up with. Their responsable for doing exactly what you are doing here, trying to influence public opinion. It's not the sensors. That's a different agency. They are not responsable for making up news either. They do pretty much the same thing that the spin doctors do here....only less skillfully.

GeneChing

03-21-2005, 10:48 AM

Here's the new e-zine article by Master An Tianrong, with Wushu Master Aiping Cheng - Traditional Wushu and Competition Wushu (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/ezine/article.php?article=585) - Let us know what you think! :cool:

PangQuan

03-21-2005, 12:46 PM

I think this is an excellent piece of material, esspecially for those who are just begining to study the history of Chinese Martial Arts. This article is the type of thing you want someone to read when they say "what is kung fu?" I feel it gives a complete summary of what CMA really is all about. Of course there will be people who will try and read between the lines of this article, and of course find messages that are not truly intended. But I guess thats how everything works in this day and age. The explanation of wu de is a nice touch. I particularly enjoy the second to last paragraph in during the closing.

Brad

03-21-2005, 09:40 PM

I liked it (of course I'm biased! :D), but I think a couple parts could've been cut out and developed into seperate articles. And I think Gene's "Traditional vs. Wushu" advertisement was a bit misleading, but I guess it grabs attention better ;)

ShaolinJOJO

03-22-2005, 07:41 AM

while in the last two commie art classes I've attended I've been with people who dressed different, had diverse martial arts backgrounds, and loved all styles of martial arts. You'd think it would be the other way around

I'm saying that kind of half joking, because I really do love traditional Chinese martial arts, but a lot of traditionalists(or I should say, people who call themselves traditionalists) make me sad-Brad

Thats true most traditionalists as they say spend to much time bashing on contemporary wushu then they do practicing their own art. In China nothing is separated into traditional or "sport" wushu its all toether

SPJ

03-22-2005, 08:46 AM

There are 2 trends which I think that they are both ok.

The Wushu trend is to integrate the diversity or try to find and establish the common grounds.

Nan Quan is composite of over 400 different routines of many schools. The moves contain crane, tiger, hung gar and others.

Tai Ji composite 48 forms contain mostly Yang, some Wu, Sun etc.

The traditionalist trend is to diversify or vary from a common base. Chen Tai Ji->Yang, Wu, Sun etc.

An art would be good to diversify or vary.

A compulsory is to "enforce", to discourage "changes" and to "kyll" or "preserve" the art.

As long as there are rooms for both. Integration and diversification.

Everyone will be happy. I guess.

:confused:

GeneChing

03-22-2005, 10:34 AM

...You know, we've had long discussions about the use of 'vs.' in cover blurbs. For a while, it was all the rage among other magazines. It's clearly an attention getter. We've dabbled in it, but for print, we generally avoid it. As for the forum however, there's no holds barred. ;)

I think SPJ's post touched on my biggest beef with modern wushu - nanquan. I've always felt that it was a disservice to the wide diversity of southern styles to claim to distill it down to nanquan. For some reason, I'm not as bothered by changquan, perhaps because that's a narrower field. On the flip side, I don't think that any of the southern styles are in the least bit worried about nanquan overshadowing their traditional forms. Hung Gar will always be Hung Gar - nanquan can't touch that. And Wing Chun? Wing Chun is potentially bigger than all of modern wushu combined, at least outside of China. There's no threat of nanquan to traditional. I just find it an unfortunate choice of terms.

Brad

03-22-2005, 11:32 PM

Chang Quan was made entirely from chang quan styles, but Nan Quan wasn't created entirely from Nan Quan styles. I can see how it could be a bit of a slap in the face to Southern stylists. It's looks almost like real Nan Quan... but not quite :p With Chang Quan it's kind of a basic training for northern long fist styles. After you've trained in all the standardized stuff, it's not to difficult to further explore one of the many traditional chang quan style (Cha Quan, Hong Quan, Mizong Quan, etc.). Nan Quan on the other hand I think is more difficult to go from standardized form to traditional form. Standardized Nan Quan is too closely related to Chang Quan. You learn Chang Quan basics, then learn the Nan Quan form. Standard Chang Quan ---> Traditional Cha Quan path makes sense... Standard Chang Quan ---> Hung Gar... not so much :p

ShaolinJOJO

03-23-2005, 08:12 AM

...
At least not until China invades Taiwan :) :D :( :mad: :mad:

That would be the worst move china could make it would disrupt the US as their biggest trading partner, and sience America loves to police and get involved with everything we would be in a huge mess.

Brad

03-23-2005, 09:19 AM

Sorry wolfen, you still make very little sense.

Brad

03-23-2005, 10:23 AM

I think trying to have a discussion with you is pretty much pointless, so... not much else to be said :confused: Good luck in your commie hunting :)

For anyone else, An laoshi allways loves hanging out and talking about martial arts with just about anyone (whether your a beginer or some famous master) so if you see him at a competition don't be afraid to introduce yourself to him if you get a chance! He's very approachable, as long as you're nice :)

GeneChing

03-23-2005, 10:47 AM

Well, I was feelin' sad and feelin' blue,
I didn't know what in the world I was gonna do,
Them Communists they wus comin' around,
They wus in the air,
They wus on the ground.
They wouldn't gimme no peace. . .

So I run down most hurriedly
And joined up with the John Birch Society,
I got me a secret membership card
And started off a-walkin' down the road.
Yee-hoo, I'm a real John Bircher now!
Look out you Commies!

Now we all agree with Hitlers' views,
Although he killed six million Jews.
It don't matter too much that he was a Fascist,
At least you can't say he was a Communist!
That's to say like if you got a cold you take a shot of malaria.

Well, I wus lookin' everywhere for them gol-darned Reds.
I got up in the mornin' 'n' looked under my bed,
Looked in the sink, behind the door,
Looked in the glove compartment of my car.
Couldn't find 'em . . .

I wus lookin' high an' low for them Reds everywhere,
I wus lookin' in the sink an' underneath the chair.
I looked way up my chimney hole,
I even looked deep inside my toilet bowl.
They got away . . .

Well, I wus sittin' home alone an' started to sweat,
Figured they wus in my T.V. set.
Peeked behind the picture frame,
Got a shock from my feet, hittin' right up in the brain.
Them Reds caused it!
I know they did . . . them hard-core ones.

Well, I quit my job so I could work alone,
Then I changed my name to Sherlock Holmes.
Followed some clues from my detective bag
And discovered they wus red stripes on the American flag!
That ol' Betty Ross . . .

Well, I investigated all the books in the library,
Ninety percent of 'em gotta be burned away.
I investigated all the people that I knowed,
Ninety-eight percent of them gotta go.
The other two percent are fellow Birchers . . . just like me.

Now Eisenhower, he's a Russian spy,
Lincoln, Jefferson and that Roosevelt guy.
To my knowledge there's just one man
That's really a true American: George Lincoln Rockwell.
I know for a fact he hates Commies cus he picketed the movie Exodus.

Well, I fin'ly started thinkin' straight
When I run outa things to investigate.
Couldn't imagine doin' anything else,
So now I'm sittin' home investigatin' myself!
Hope I don't find out anything . . . hmm, great God!

Brad

03-23-2005, 11:12 AM

Brilliant :cool:

GeneChing

04-11-2005, 12:30 PM

I was just beginning to miss you. I was just up at City of 10,000 Buddhas (http://www.drba.org/branches/cttb/cttb_e.htm) yesterday and I ran across this quote from Venerable Grandmaster Hua that seems somehow fitting here in your tirade against modern wushu. It's less chiding than Dylan ;) .
"Cultivating the Way means to cultivate true morality by not obstructing others and not being afraid of being obstructed by others."

At least it's not Plutarch. :eek:

JaguarWarrior

11-17-2005, 03:48 AM

I've been training just over 2 months now at a kung fu gym in South Korea. My sifu is part of the "Korea Wushu Association". He has told me he teaches Praying Mantis style, how do I know if I am doing real combat kung fu? (I'm not interested in learning a dancing style, I want to know that I am learning the real deal.) It isn't as easy as just asking because his english isn't great. But he does explain and show me the combat uses of the form he has taught me. He makes me train very hard and was talking today about me finally doing a combat situation with another student.

I train everday, here's what I am doing presently.
1) 8 basic stances
2) kicking practice
3) punching drill practice
4) the only form I know so far
5) I finish off by practicing 4 different jump kicks

He also likes to get me doing other things to toughen me, like holding the horse riding stance with a barbell over my shoulders, or climbing ropes across the ceiling of his gym. He tells me I have the body type to be a champion.

Maybe he is part of the wushu association more just to be certified, but teaches the praying mantis style traditionally. I'm not sure yet, but I really hope I'm learning a real combat oriented kung fu.

I know he has been training in kung fu since he was 5, and he is now 42. He was taught by a Korean Sifu(who may have been his father...) who was taught by a Chinese Sifu.

I guess I need to find out more to know for sure. I have, since begining training, felt it was traditional, before I knew there was a difference. But... now having read this wushu mess I'm uncertain.