What's the difference between Wing Chun & Bagua?

[straight blast]

What's the difference between Wing Chun & Bagua? Not the histories because I know those, but the actual combat priciples & moves? I've seen lots of Wing Chun, and absolutely no Bagua. But I've read heaps of stuff about Bagua and it sounds really similar in many respects.
Wing Chun is characterised by the sticking, close range deflecting sort of combat. In what way does Bagua differ?

Enlighten Me. :cool:

"Pain is merely weakness leaving the body"

[Gluteus Maximus]

Might be worth asking the same question on the Taijiquan and Internal Arts Forum. Dedalus, a guy who posts there often, is a Bagua practitioner who previously spent years studying Wing Chun.

Max

Yooby Yoody

[S.Teebas]

Hi Straight Blast,

This is not about your topic, but i notice you are training WC on the Gold Coast, is your instructors name Grant? If so can you please tell me the address of the school, i might be up there soon and might vist. (Jim Fung Lineage right?)

[Repulsive Monkey]

The main difference is that Bagua is wholly an internal art, where as Wing Chu just contains apsects of it. It is not a complete Internal art.

[whippinghand]

Wing Chun is an external as well as internal art.

[Sharky]

echo?

All i wanted was some RICE CAKES! Now? WE MUST BATTLE.

[HuangKaiVun]

Completely different footwork, stances, power generation, etc . . .

[fgxpanzerz]

Though Bagua is "internal," you need the external body to project the attacks and you have to have the physical movements mastered. You cant just project yor chi out of yor eyes. If you dont have the movements down, then you have nothing. That sounds kinda external to me.

[Rolling_Hand]

Are you ready?

*** SPACE ***

[yungwun]

wing chun's strategy is stick, get inside, beat the **** out of your opponent. Bagua is stick, re-route, and attack from your opponents weak side. At least that's my understanding. Take it for what it's worth.

The only reason a warrior is alive is to fight, and the only reason a warrior fights is to win. Otherwise, why be a warrior? It is easier to count beads. -Miyamoto Musashi

[Sihing73]

Hello,

My understanding of Bagua/Pakua is very basic so take this FWIW:

There are different styles or families of Bagua which emphasize different approaches. Just as in Wing Chun ;)
Bagua tends to emphasize the palms in attack while Wing Chun would tend to use more of a fist. However both arts have palms and fists as well as kicks.
Some of the footwork is different yet a lot of the linear motions are very similiar.
Wing Chun would tend to be based on a triangle while Bagua is based more on a circle.

The biggest difference would be on the circular emphasis, however there are some families of Bagua which would stress more linear approaches. There is a great deal of constant flow and movement found within Bagua. One of the key elements is to redirect and flow with an attack and then counter from a different direction then you originally were in. In other words the guy attacks from your right and you move and attack from the left, very simplified explanation.
Bagua stresses more locks and throws than the average Wing Chun person.
Bagua can not be said to be lower in stance as there are versions advocating high, mid and low level stances.

Hope this is somewhat helpful but as I said my knowledge is very rudimentary concerning Bagua.

Peace,

Dave

[EmptyCup]

Bagua is totally different. As others have stated, it has a very circular framework and palms strikes. It is very internal and many argue the hardest to master of the three main Taoist internal systems of Bagua, Hsing-I, and Tai Chi.

Whipping Hand, your comment that wing chun is internal is misleading. The three internal arts use chi in fighting techniques. They can launch people a few feet away with a light tough and remain unmoved when bodybuilders try to move them. I've never heard of that in wing chun. Have you?

Their whole system is based on internal energy. Where is the internal energy in wing chun? It is strictly external. Yes, many use intent on the dan tien or other methods but that is more focus than real chi. We claim to have internal power? Try using your "internal power" in a real confrontation...all your moves will be strictly external. It is a whole different type of internal we're talking about here...

[[Censored]]

Whipping Hand, your comment that wing chun is internal is misleading. The three internal arts use chi in fighting techniques. They can launch people a few feet away with a light tough and remain unmoved when bodybuilders try to move them. I've never heard of that in wing chun. Have you?

I've heard of it and seen it. Haven't we all read about Tsui Seung Tin and his Tan Sao?

Maybe he doesn't know the REAL Wing Chun though. Go tell him. :)

[EmptyCup]

You've heard and seen wing chun practioners do what I said using no external force and strictly wing chun techiques? You're full of BS :cool:

[straight blast]

Yep. My soon-to-be-instructors name is Grant Mathers. And yes, he's from the Jim Fung lineage. I'm due to start training in February, and time is just passing too slow at the moment. I've been really quiet in the MA sense of late. I haven't kickboxed for about 8 months due to a string of breaks (thumb, elbow, etc) and as such I am quite a bit out of shape. Another reason I'm looking forward to getting back in training!!! Maybe I'll see you there at some point.
The address is: Cavill Park Buliding, Level Two, 46 Cavill Ave Surfers Paradise. It's above Melbas nightclub, so it can be fairly easy to find.
Another question. If Bagua is circular, are the principles similar to Aikido? Aikido seems to have the circular movement thing down quite well last time I looked.
Empty Cup. Please forgive my ignorance (because in that sense MY cup is awfully empty :D ) but isn't the 1 inch punch (Wing Chun stlye, not JKD) an internal technique? I have certainly seen a big bodybuilder launched by one of those. Mind you, I suppose that the 1 inch punch isn't a "light" touch.
I think I'm learning a little about Bagua now :cool:

"Pain is merely weakness leaving the body"

[[Censored]]

People have been fighting for thousands of years. There is no such thing as a "strictly Wing Chun technique".

So, is Tsui Seung Tin a phony or not? You tell me.

[kj]

You wrote: <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>They can launch people a few feet away with a light tough and remain unmoved when bodybuilders try to move them. I've never heard of that in wing chun. Have you?
[/quote]

Yes, I have seen a Wing Chun person do these types of things, and yes, using Wing Chun. While I am no bodybuilder, I have felt the type of force generated. It gets your attention, ahem, in a highly understated manner of speaking.

No "Ripley's Believe It or Not," but solid Wing Chun basics and a lot of dedicated effort over time. I don't believe either of these can be overstressed.

Regards,
- kj

[EmptyCup]

I have never heard of Tsui's tan sau...could you please tell me the story? I know the sifu you are referring to, just not the stories...

kj - I don't think you people know what I'm talking about. A tai chi teacher once touched the tips of his fingers against a students chest. Nothing but featherlight and the student flew back a half dozen feet into a wall. His chest had bruises where the sifus fingers had been imprinted. Another tai chi teacher in china, a dozen bodybuilders tried to push, pull, or pick him up from the ground. This guy was 80something and 5 feet max. He couldn't be moved. I've seen a master smash GRANITE BLOCKS, not slabs with his head, bend iron pipes used for roads, eat glass, cut granite slabs into pieces with his fingers, etc

Another master, his students jumped 7 stories and got right back up. They also ran through a dozen panes of glass without getting cut (well, one got a nasty cut on his leg, but the rest were fine), and got boiling oil poured all over their torsos without getting burned in any way. I could go on but i don't think I need to.

What I'm trying to say is those are displays of internal power. It's from chi. Wing Chun is from TECHNIQUE. One is a special force the other just body mechanics. Wing Chun is not internal in that sense.

[kj]

Wow. That's an awful lot of very different examples, with an awful lot of possible and different explanations. Or so it seems to me. I'm not sure that chi would necessarily be required to explain any of them, or that it's a vital (sic) common denominator in the phenomena described. It's not the individual observations I doubt as much as a chi explanation for them.

I stand by my observations of the Wing Chun demonstrations; there is no way through this medium we'll know if you and I are describing the same sort of thing or not. But caveat emptor on uncritical acceptance of the chi paradigm to explain things, whether it be Bagua, Xingyi, Taiji, Wing Chun, or using a hand to spontaneously combust someone.

I'm not saying there is no such thing as chi, nor discounting its importance if it exists (assuming people could actually and ever agree on what they mean by it). I am saying it's wise to be intellectually critical, and conservative in making assumptions or leaping to conclusions. About chi or most other things, for that matter. Chi is a bit too much like "aether" and "humours" for my taste. Until and unless I ever see something more concrete, I'm destined to remain a bit of a "chi skeptic."

If we (the general we) can't agree on chi, or even what it is, using it as the basis or supplement to any argument is moot. As a subtopic, it's too divergent to serve the thread. So for my part, I'll call "uncle." Not sure if we agree, disagree, or a little of both, but as always, thanks for the chat.

Regards,
- Kathy Jo

[EmptyCup]

believe me, if I didn't experience chi i wouldn't believe in it either. But I'm sure it exists and is not merely imagination. It is as real as the air you breathe in.

Since we are talking about internal arts, something interesting: Chi kung practioners have what they call "spontaneous movement". That is when their limbs move of their own accord. In a lot of people, the movements look like kung fu movements. Some are very violent and frightening to watch while others are graceful and beautiful. The latter looks VERY similar to Tai Chi movements. I wonder if kung fu is a thing that exists innately or that we take stored images from our subconscious to execute these movements....

but yes, the concept of chi is a little far-fetched to the west but "mind over matter" is really no better explanation either. You may be able to smash through concrete with your head if you try hard enough but you will bleed to death. If you do not get injured SOMETHING has to be responsible for that...a physical reason. Chinese call it chi. Indians call it prana. Both mean breath.

[S.Teebas]

Thanks straight Blast, i will be up on Saturday or Sunday or Monday.

-----------------------
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> I have never heard of Tsui's tan sau...could you please tell me the story? [/quote]

It is un-movable. Tsui Seung Tin is the real deal!

In regards to easily moving around body builders, it is all explainable through structure (once you understand it ) and simply physics. The WC man presents his structure causing the oponent to tence up....and push back at you, the structure allows the force to run through your body and bounce back at the body builder (or opponent). Therefore the more force given to the WC person, the more force the opponent recieves back.

Which can also relate to the punch. ie depending how much weight the opponent has is in direct relation top how much force he will recieve back.

Here is a couple of photos showing Tsui demonstrating this principle:


http://www.hchwingchun.com.au/Image8.jpg
Ok, so this guy isn't that big....


http://www.tstvingtsun.bc.ca/Images/SigungInAction02b.jpg
But these guys would be difficult to handle if you didnt know what you were doing!


S.Teebas

[chi-kwai]

I believe the core of this argument lies in the interperetation. More often than not, we classify an art as external or internal based upon appearance. Taiji, Bagua and Hsing-I's(I will call them collectively Neijia) learning processes lend to the cultivation of chi and generation of power without the relatively stacatto movements of other arts. Their stances are relatively easy on the body and allow for flowing movement. While this does not guarantee a person will grasp the concept of fah jing or chi, it does give the appearance of internal energy early on.

Wing chun, by contrast, introduces the exponent to a stance which makes him sink his knees, turn in his toes, pull his elbows in and drag his foot when he needs to move. The new student is asked to throw his arms forward hand over hand when he wants to punch and is reprimanded whenever he tries to throw a hook. Restrictions to how far the arms should be extended and the angle of the fist daunt the newbie.

Regardless, with time, these things become natural to the WCK practitioner. Gradually the student relaxes and arms flow, trap, energy is expressed and jing is developed. A student learns to cultivate energy not from pure force of action, but from structure and speed and intent.

Power in the Neijia and power in wing chun now start to emerge from the same place. While the Neijia took a more direct route to this energy, the destinations were the same even though the expressions are different. Internal art is the proper expression of power as learned through years of diligent study expressed in the energy of the actions.

--
chi kwai

[hunt1]

First I have learned much from Tsui Sifu.With that said.Dont use that picture as an example of anything other than the proper alignment of the skeleton.I consider this nothing more than a trick that can be taught in 5 to 10 minutes nothing more.Yes it is an example of proper body structure however you may be able perform this structure trick and still fail Robert Chu's stucture test for example.

Tsue's use of spherical energy has been a big influence on my WC and he is one of the few to utilize WC energy in this fashion.

[straight blast]

Hope you have fun! I won't be up there for at least 3 weeks yet. I've gotta drop in & see Grant ('cos I've only spoken to him by phone or on the email) and my brother in law & I want to meet the bloke. I've had some trouble getting to meet him 'cos he's not there on weekends & that's the only time I can get off work.
I've met the other instructor there (Damien) and he knows what he's talking about. It's really got a very good setup for a kwoon. I was quite impressed last time I was there. Oh well, only 8 weeks & I move up. I'm going to start training before my course starts. I figure that I'm going to need all the practice I can get to train out my Muay Thai habits!
Tell us how you went!

"Pain is merely weakness leaving the body"

[dedalus]

Sihing73 pointed out a few key differences between wing chun and bagua, but his characterisation of our forms of attack were a bit off the mark. There are a lot of ways to fight with bagua, and while it often involves moving around behind the opponent, there are countless ways to smash straight through the centre too. I guess you could say that both methods are evasive, though, in that you don't block attacks so much as deflect them, attack them, or avoid them.

One big difference that nobody has pointed out yet is the difference in footwork. Bagua stepping is perhaps the quickest and most intricate of any martial art (it is well renowned for this) and I found that learning this quickly undermined the more static stances utilised in wing chun. There have been numerous accounts of masters in other styles learning bagua just to glean this aspect of it, whether they be karateka or other Chinese artists.

Bagua does not train muscle groups like wing chun. In bagua most of your power comes from the torque of the waist with force added from all the other counter-coils you instantiate at the joints. I guess that you could say that in bagua one is always coiled, and attacks are often implemented in the trabsitions between opposite extremes of this coil. You're always loaded for an attack in bagua, and the power comes from the coiling of the entire body rather than from any particular muscle groups. It is wierd for a wing chun practitioner to learn this... the upper, middle and lower body are all linked but working in different directions, so in circle walking your feet move along the circumference of the circle, you hips point at a tangent from it, your waist is tightly twisted inwards and your upper body faces the centre of the circle. All of this structure coils and uncoils to some extent as you actually walk the circle... there is a rambling-dragon metaphor that is sometimes used to explain the apparent indeppendence of the different parts of the body.

As Sihing73 mentioned, there are some locks and throws in bagua, but I think of bagua primarilly as a palm-striking art. Getting out of locks is certainly taught, but putting people into them is a transitory process. Often you will lock up an opponents joints with bagua, but you keep moving through them so that they break. There is no concept of submission fighting. Same goes for throws... some come as a consequence of the way you've locked your opponent up, and if you get it right you should break several bones and land the attacker on his head so that his neck breaks. There is a perculiar technique of controlling the attacker's leg in a throw so that he cannot roll out of it and gets pile-driven instead. There are also some throws that are really secondary to strikes. If, for example, you step into someone's stance from the side and break their knee from behind (wing chun does this) they will tend to fall backwards over your leg... if you add an upwards strike to the armpit or neck (kinda like diagonal flying in taiji) this will add some momentum. The real point of the attack is the point-strike and the leg break, but a throw is seen as a side effect... you might almost hope the attacker would be dead before he hit the ground. That's how I practise the lock and throw aspects, anyway - I'm sure there are different emphases in other lineages.

Bagua is a cool art to learn. It is surprisingly vicious but can take a while to pick up. I didn't want to retain my wing chun once I began, but it is conceivable that anyone could benefit from some circle-walking and the kicking methods it trains. It is a martial art that tends to suit someone who already knows something about fighting (the founder of the system, Dong Haichuan, was said only to teach experienced martial artists) but who is willing to adjust their basic principles.

I would consider xingyi to be a good alternative to wing chun also. I don't know how compatible it would be to cross-train, but there are some highly destructive, relatively simple fighting methods in there. That's really just for the interest of anyone else who's looking to check out an internal art, because I know Straight Blast is committed to his wing chun programme. (Incidentally SB, Damien is very well regarded as an instructor down here in Adelaide... small world!)

Hope you're not all too bored now :)

It's dangerous to invite a man to plug his passion, Max ;)

[EmptyCup]

chi kwai is right teebas...tricks are easily done in demonstrations to "show" special skills or powers but they are merely a nifty sleight of hand of for lack of a better term...

Another one is to have somebody make a fist with one hand and grab onto it's wrist with the other. Have the person extend his arms so that they are straight and lift them to forehead height. Tell them to resist as much as possible with every ounce of their strength.

Grab the wrist of the person that is holding their other hand right where the bone of it is exposed at the joint. Squeeze this as you press down on the extended arms. Nobody can resist. Kids and women can easily and effortlessly press a seven foot tall 300 lb mans hands down.

Another one is to have somebody try to resist you pushing them back a dozen feet. Dug both your palms right up into the lowest ribs, the floating rib region and puch at a 45degree angle. i once saw a little chinese woman smash a 6'6 280 lb russian thai boxer into a wall using this.

This is NOT chi but merely trickery. Nothing special. Breaking boards with spacers with brute force is nothing special. Seeing a person smash a car sized block of solid granite with his head and hands that are as soft as a newborn baby's is something different. No callouses. No spacers. No pre-heating.

[S.Teebas]

Fine. You are entitled to believe what you like. If you think Tsui does tricks then it's your bad luck you are missing out on some good information!
But i know otherwise.

:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:


S.Teebas

[This message was edited by S.Teebas on 11-02-01 at 06:43 AM.]

[This message was edited by S.Teebas on 11-02-01 at 06:46 AM.]

[Sam]

Fut Sao Wing Chun Kuen has a Siu Baat Kua form which has similarities to Royal Family Ba Qua but is unique to itself. It teaches the inner and outer circle and has specialized circular hands to complement the footworks. James Cama Sifu teaches these light skills on Moi Fa Poles. Cama Sifu has taught skilled Ba Qua and Hsing Yi practitioners who were amazed that Fut Sao Siu Baat Kua contained the core fighting applications of there previous arts without the flowery movements. www.buddhapalm.com (http://www.buddhapalm.com) (718) 692-2281

[dzu]

EmptyCup,

Those examples aren't 'trickery' but just using leverage and body mechanics. What TST does may be a 'parlor trick' but the important idea is that he is sending the force into the ground through body alignment. This is the same thing that those 'chi masters' are doing when they cannot be moved. Many times what is passed off as 'chi' can be explained by understanding bio mechanics and some simple physics with a dash of personal experimentation.

BTW, the two examples you give also highlight important ideas about body mechanics and are relavent to WC.

Dzu

[dedalus]

Is that wing chun of a non Yip Man lineage? I've been hearing some good stuff about the depth of those systems, lately...

[Sam]

dedalus Yes Fut Sao Wing Chun Kuen is direct from Shaolin. Gao Jhi Fut Sao The Venerable Master Hsu Yun taught Leung Chi Man who taught James Cama. The system is unique in it's internal Hei/Nei Gung training, loose hands, Siu Baat Kua footworks form, two man forms, high/low horse and stake dummy forms. www.buddhapalm.com (http://www.buddhapalm.com)

[EmptyCup]

teebas and dzu:

it's obvious you two have never experienced chi before because your comparisons indicate this. Never mind. Unless you experience it you will never grasp it's concept. Calling chi body mechanics is highly ignorant. But then again, you're probably thinking I'm ignorant and insane right now...forget it. You guys won't understand.

[dedalus]

Interesting site... I bookmarked it in the hope it might grow more over time.

When I began wing chun I didn't even know there were non-Yip Man lineages. I guess that when you go into these things for the first time you tend to be led by the popular information, and only find something different by chance or experience. The two-man forms in your style sound particularly interesting, and I hope to be able to see them in person one day.

[straight blast]

Can anyone direct me to where I can get some Mpegs of Bagua?

"Pain is merely weakness leaving the body"

[dedalus]

I reckon the best I've seen (for size, clarity and application) are from Mike Patterson's site (http://www.hsing-i.com). All of the bagua and xingyi stuff there is well worth a look.

There is some footage of a bagua wooden-dummy training method on Erle Montaigue's site here (http://www.taijiworld.com/Videos/bagwa.htm) (scan down towards the bottom and click the download link beside the video title)

There are clips at www.beijingbagua.com (http://www.beijingbagua.com) but I don't really like them - I think the applications are silly and the picture quality isn't too good.

You can get *some* idea from series of static pictures, and the BlackTaoist's site has heaps of shots with applications.