Yi Jin Jing

[phoenix-eye]

Hi

Couple of questions on the Yi Jin Jing (muscle/tendon change classic)

1) How many of you practice this form?
2) Do you feel you have benefitted signficantly and what were these benefits?
3) Can you learn the form from video? (I know it's not the best method but if there are benefits then it might be worth it..)
4) Which is the best video? I know there are at least 2 available from martialartsmart - one by Shi Guolin and one by Shi De Yang (?). I found Guolin's Jin Gang Quan video to be good for demonstrating physical form but there was only a tiny bit of (pretty hidden) information on the correct breathing patterns.

Thanks for any advice that you might have.

"We had a thing to settle so I did him"
Tamai, 43, was quoted by Police as saying.

[charliec]

I practice it at Shi Guolin's temple, but not for long enough to be able to talk about the results. Directly however I feel relaxed and much more physically fit after practicing the fit.

I'd have to say you couldn't learn it from a tape. With kung fu it is sometimes possible to do the movements and figure them out to a certain extent from just the pure physicality of it, I'd say this is totally impossible with Qigong.

For those entering the
realm of Wu with a mind
on Ch'an, the silent
smile awaits them. -
Ch'au-Lu

www.thousandbuddha.org (http://www.thousandbuddha.org)

[Kung Lek]

1. i do
2.yes
3.yes (it is Nei/Chi Gong/Kung exercises)
4.I don't know, I recieved it via direct transmission

peace

Kung Lek

[GeneChing]

Shi Guolin states emphatically that his iron body skill comes from his yijinjing practice. He is a staunch proponent of it and his video is very good. It has narration both in Chinese and English, which can be tedious if you only speak one language, but there are plenty of repetitions.

Shi Deqian wrote the book on Shaolin, or more literally, the books - the Shaolin encyclopedia. Beyond his explanation in those books, he produced the video and a poster. I worked on the English translation of his video personally. Again, good video with plenty of repetitions.

Additionally, we published a photo series by Deru. That ran in Jun/Jul99, Sep99, Oct99, & Dec99. That is something that you can copy and post on your training wall.

All three versions are essentially the same and equivalent to the version I learned at Shaolin under Shi Decheng by direct transmission. I used to practice it daily, but after my chld was born, well, you other parents understand... Anyways, I loved it and hope I can find the time in my life soon to renew the practice.

You can learn by any means and don't let anyone tell you otherwise. Videos, books, watching bugs, bar fights, there are so many roads to martial wisdom. Of course, kungfu & qigong is best transmitted from warm hand to warm hand. But as an example, I learned this by direct transmission, then researched the other versions to expand my knowledge. If you are really into the practice, of course you'll do your research and cross-reference through all the sources. Now to keep my job, I should officially say "buy them all" but realistically, you should buy what you can afford, at least look at them all. Learn one, the look at the others to deepen your knowledge. Why would you ever want to limit yourself?

Gene Ching
Asst. Publisher
Kungfu Qigong Magazine & www.KUNGFUmagazine.com (http://www.KUNGFUmagazine.com)

[charliec]

Meh, I still say you couldn't learn qigong from a video. I have such a hard time breathing correctly and there's no way writing would be able to express what I'm doing wrong. I really need someone to pat my stomach and say, "No."

For those entering the
realm of Wu with a mind
on Ch'an, the silent
smile awaits them. -
Ch'au-Lu

www.thousandbuddha.org (http://www.thousandbuddha.org)

[phoenix-eye]

Gene: Thanks for info - I'm contemplating buying them both if I can devise a cunning plan to defraud my fiancee of the necessary funds. I'm meant to be saving for the honeymoon but ... well...you know....she's always buying clothes and shoes - surely I can have a few kung fu videos?

Charlie:

It's always been my concern that you cant learn Qi Gong from video in the same way that you could at least grasp the basics of an external form. There are some nuances to the breathing patterns and directing Qi flow that I'm sure you cant get except from direct transmission. My major concern was more that if you are doing it "wrong" can it have adverse effects? If so, maybe it's better left alone.

Anyway, geography is my main problem - there is almost zero chance of me ever getting direct instruction here and if the advantages of the video outweigh the disadvantages then it might be worth it.

"We had a thing to settle so I did him"
Tamai, 43, was quoted by Police as saying.

[PlasticSquirrel]

phoenix-eye: i got my start with books on qigong. within a few months, any blockage i had was very small, and i had accomplished xiao zhou tian (small cycle of heaven) and da zhou tian (large cycle of heaven). besides that, i could root myself well enough that even when standing upright i couldn't get my foot off the ground. and you know those spots on your feet that translate into "bubbling well?" well, they feel like they're bubbling.

i would recommend one, along with yang jwingming's book "qigong for health and martial arts." very comprehensive look, and you'll be able to get a better handle on the theories behind the yi jin jing, as well as another version of it, and some other similar forms.

[phoenix-eye]

Thanks

I've got a few of Yang Jwing Ming's books including "Tai Chi Theory and Martial Power" and "Essence of White Crane" which give good background info on Qi Gong.

I do think that I know the (very) basic theories and that I could understand what is happening on the video but sometimes what you think is happening is the opposite of what is intended.

I think I'll give it a try and post a topic again after some actual practice.

"We had a thing to settle so I did him"
Tamai, 43, was quoted by Police as saying.

[charliec]

phoenix-eye, my qigong teacher has always instructed us to be mindfull during practice because otherwise we could hurt ourselves. He tells us never to close our eyes during practice and to never practice when you're not into it. Even the beginning student can accidently do something right and hurt themselves.

For those entering the
realm of Wu with a mind
on Ch'an, the silent
smile awaits them. -
Ch'au-Lu

www.thousandbuddha.org (http://www.thousandbuddha.org)

[Broken One]

Hi i was checking out martial arts mart the other day and came across two yi jin jing videos, one was 48 mins and the other was 60mins. why the difference in time? has anyone seen these videos or would recommend them ?

thnx :)

[David Jamieson]

I'm only guessing, but, It is likely there is more flute music and sweeping vistas of water crashing into stone while someone talks about shaolin history in one while the other is more to the point. :p

THta would be the time difference thing. heh heh

[Royal Dragon]

Get them both, they show the set at different levels. Goulin's is more basic, and the other is more advance in performance.

[Broken One]

thank you for your replys guys, im kinda pressed for cash at the moment but i will pick up the other one later.

:)

[GeneChing]

Shi Guolin's yi jin jing (http://store.martialartsmart.net/pr-gs001.html) is in both Chinese and English, which partly account for the longer running time. FWIW, yi jin jing is one of Shi Guolin's specialties. I learned more about the form in a two-day semianr with him than I learned from all my studies under other masters and in books and videos. I'm not sure if that comes across in his video per se (I had studied it prior to taking his seminar), but I must say that I admire his form the most of all I've seen so far.

Shi Deqian's yi jin jing (http://store.martialartsmart.net/vidshaolmusc.html) is our exclusive translation from Chinese to English. We got the rights for US distribution, while the original Chinese language is available in China. I worked on that translation. Deqian also produced an accompanying yi jin jing poster (http://store.martialartsmart.net/8511.html). Shi Deqian is much older than Shi Guolin, and age always changes your practice. I have the most respect for the elder masters.

[MasterKiller]

I have Guolin's tape. It's pretty good.

[Jhapa]

Shi Guolin's yi jin jing (http://store.martialartsmart.net/pr-gs001.html) is in both Chinese and English, which partly account for the longer running time. FWIW, yi jin jing is one of Shi Guolin's specialties. I learned more about the form in a two-day semianr with him than I learned from all my studies under other masters and in books and videos. I'm not sure if that comes across in his video per se (I had studied it prior to taking his seminar), but I must say that I admire his form the most of all I've seen so far.

Shi Deqian's yi jin jing (http://store.martialartsmart.net/vidshaolmusc.html) is our exclusive translation from Chinese to English. We got the rights for US distribution, while the original Chinese language is available in China. I worked on that translation. Deqian also produced an accompanying yi jin jing poster (http://store.martialartsmart.net/8511.html). Shi Deqian is much older than Shi Guolin, and age always changes your practice. I have the most respect for the elder masters.

so, what would you recommend for a beginner, shi goulin's or shi dequan's.

[Jhapa]

also, are there any on dvd's. not too fond of vhs.

[fiercest tiger]

Has anyone completed this exercise with the Massage and herbs of Dr Yang Ming Jings?

If so what do you feel in regards to Chi and Health benifits?

Kind Regards
FT :)

[David Jamieson]

I practioce Ba Duan Jin and Yi Jin Jing on a fairly regular basis. Mostly in the morning after waking and before eating or in the early evening.

I do not follow YJM's teachings at all, but anyway, I find the benefits to be many.

My joints do not pop, ache or feel tight in anyway.
My muscles are limber and easy to warm up.
My alignment has self corrected through qigong practice in general.
My breathing is not laboured in vigorous kungfu practice.
State of mind seems to have some clarity, but that's a subjective thing.
Physical strength is good and maintained through these practices.
Body Balance improves with qigong practice.

There's lots and lots of benefits to these types of practices. I would encourage anyone to do them or similar exercises like Yoga or taichi or what have you.

[fiercest tiger]

Cheers David,

Do you do the massage that is part of the training or just the chi kung section?

I do lots of chi kung and meditation, i was looking at a Tibetan Yoga for something different when time permits you know any good tibetan yoga?

Regards
Garry

[David Jamieson]

There is some light pounding and rubbing involved in the version I practice. there is small massage in the hands, the back of the head and neck.

I have looked at a couple of different versions of this now. There is some face washing and limb brushing in one, just the gongs in another and on the one i know there is small breaks for standing post before next section and in some parts a light pounding on the back, light rubbing on the lower back, grasp and rub the back of the head and neck and face washing massage at the end.

And yet, despite their differences, they are all called yi jin jing.

I do believe that old texts have been analyzed and the exercise has been repieced together while the direct transmission practice will morph ovber generations, hence the variations to the gongs, their sequence and the intent that is encouraged to be part of the practice.

Sorry, I am not in the know when it comes to Tibetan yoga other than one or two things that are very much the same as the Hatha Yoga asanas that I do know. There are so many asanas that like kungfu, you can find the sets that suit you, that fix you, that correct you, that help you and so on and many of the rest you can learn if you like, but basically you want to put together a set of asanas that will completely work the entire body, all it's joints and as many of the muscles as can be worked while lengthening and strengthening tendons and lightly stretching/stressing the ligaments. Match body to breath and away you go.

THere is a lot of material out there. It's a matter of finding what is going to work best for you. Sometimes that can take a while. :)

[fiercest tiger]

Yeah, YKM has massage and internal work but we dont call it Yi Jin Jing. Thats why i asked about Dr Yangs book i saw it and has similar stuff to what we do so i thought i would ask.

Tibetan Yoga is something i would like to try later, my internal has pretty much what i need i was trying to see how different or similar all these healing systems are. I guess they all reach similar roads in ways!

thanks
FT

[David Jamieson]

Well, like i said, it's been variated and adapted from it's original form anyway.

lots of things have come out of those two classics as far as buddhist qigongs go.

not to mention the fusion with the taoist versions of dhayana practice and their own stuff, hundreds if not thousands of other qigongs, the neigong sequences of exercises and so on.

THere's quite a lot available, a lot of it is similar, but from school to school it is all a little different, slight variety etc etc.

funny that isn't it? :p

[fiercest tiger]

:rolleyes: The thing is are they really training Yi Jin Jing?

FT :p

[David Jamieson]

indeed they are.

[johnyk]

I looked at allot of books on chi and massage. The problem is I don't wan to use a book or a video, since they all worn that if you do it wrong, you are screwed.
And 20-35 bucks per lesson, I ain't going there.

Have anyone was able to succed with the book?

[David Jamieson]

johnyk-

many people have used books and videos and what not to gain new information in their practice.

people who tell you that if you don't learn it from them you are screwed only want your money and then you really are screwed! :p

There is a lot of "oh, this is the right way and that is the wrong way".
Be wary of those who dwell on this and favour themselves as a 'better' source.
Everything has some usefulness to it in the wide array of practices in the genre of martial arts.

Wise folks can learn from fools better than fools can learn from wise folks.

having said all that, if the trasnmission is clear and understandable to you and to your best efforts you are practicing as shown, then no harm will come to you from the simple breathing exercises couple with body motion.

Like I said, it is unlikely you will find anyone who does things 100% the same as the next guy. If you can establish the basics, you can move forward with more confidence.

[fiercest tiger]

True, i have alot of books for massage, i have my remedial Massage qualifications and colon massage plus other healing courses ive done. Each book tells you different ways to do it and alot contradict each other. My question was to see if anyone has attained this Damo type training fully and how different or what they have acheive from it that you wouldnt from any other internal art or healing practise.

Regards
Garry:cool:

[Shen Yi]

Well, there have been a number of threads about paoquan, hongquan, tongbeiquan... etc so I thought why not one about Yi Jin Jing which should be a fundamental practice in Shaolin.

I'll start off with a question for LFJ as you studied with Shi Deyang and you have mentioned that in his videos Deyang only shows bare versions of the actual forms. I suspect the same (or even more so) goes for his videos on Ba duan jin and Yi Jin Jing. So the question is if Deyang actually teaches different levels of softness/hardness.

Some video examples
Deyang's vcd version which is very "soft" without any grabbing or very obvious twisting of the limbs:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hIg0_NK1OoI

and two other versions which have more torsion, torque,...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y72-29g7Tes
and http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q6mom0Z0YaU

so, let the conversation begin

[GeneChing]

I've been revisiting Yijinjing lately. I'm slowly reintegrating it into my daily regimen. Thanks for the links.

Here are our Yijinjing resources:
DVD - Shaolin Muscle-Tendon Change Classic (http://www.martialartsmart.com/dvd-bj005.html) (Shi Deqian)

DVD - Shaolin Kung Fu Bodhidharma Yi Jin Jing (http://www.martialartsmart.com/dvd-pr-gs001.html) (Shi Guolin)

DVD/Book - Muscle-Tendon Change Classic (Yijinjing) DVD with instruction manual (http://www.martialartsmart.com/dvd-hq002.html) (Chinese Health Qigong Association)

Music CD - Muscle-Tendon Change Classic (Yijinjing) (http://www.martialartsmart.com/aud-hq002.html)

Shaolin Special 2010 (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/magazine/article.php?article=892): The Muscle Tendon Change Classic: Yijinjing By William Oh

Shaolin Yijinjing (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=glBoCgIRhZQ): Shaolin Summit 2011 demo (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=60282)

[sanjuro_ronin]

Keeping out tendon healthy and flexible is crucial and any exercise that helps is great.
We can't really strengthen tendons, they are made of collegen fibers, but we can strengthen the muscles the tendons are attached to and keep said tendons strong by make sure that the agonist-antagonist muscles are strengthened.

[wenshu]

Keeping out tendon healthy and flexible is crucial and any exercise that helps is great.
We can't really strengthen tendons, they are made of collegen fibers, but we can strengthen the muscles the tendons are attached to and keep said tendons strong by make sure that the agonist-antagonist muscles are strengthened.

There is tendon hypertrophy it is just not nearly as pronounced as muscular development.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17524067


Any Gymnast will tell you, especially Ring specialists. Progress on Iron Cross and similar straight arm holds is measured in years precisely because of the slow metabolism of connective tissues.

A dead hang, no kipping muscle up on the rings has taken me nearly 18 months. It puts a huge strain on the tendons especially the elbow so over training is dangerously easy. I can't do ring workouts more than once a week, sometimes twice else I'll have to skip a week or two while my forearms recover. In my case it's not an issue of pull up or dip strength it is purely difficulty getting through the transition which is where all the stress on the elbow is.

[ShaolinDiva]

Well, in acupuncture, you can treat the sinew / tendon /ligaments. They are effective in treatment when you have needles in the right point locations especially with certain ligament pulls. It works on the sinew channels which are different meridians. It really is amazing how it works. Western medicine offers you rest only. Needle treatment can improve your situation in a day with the right acupuncturist.

Now that being said, the other day, my Shaolin shifu instructed a few of us to move our qi through the sinew channel to improve our certain movements. In TCM, we normally don't really think about qi in those channels as much as the other main meridians or acupunture points. When I visually directed the qi flow through the sinews, it did indeed make my body move more effortlessly.

Mind over matter? Shaolin is all that ...

[pazman]

I like Yijinjing.

I've learned 3 different versions. I've learned a Shaolin version, with many different variations on each movements. Some I like more than others. I've learned some variations with dynamic tension which I think are cool.

I've learned a standardized version which I really like. This would be the version you would learn if you attended a sports or wushu school here in China. I've found most "standardized" wushu in China to be ****, except for this and the version of Baduanjin that goes along with it.

Then there is an advanced version of the standardized routine which is used in performance competitions. Competitions for qigong routines are stupid but this version is very challenging and very cool. While I've learned the movements it will be many years still until I can pull them off without looking like an idiot.:p

[monkey mind]

My martial training is currently centered around wado ryu karate & I'm not interested in changing that, but I have long been interested in yi jin jing & would love to learn it as a supplementary/general health practice. I live in northern Thailand where shaolin teachers are either non-existent or very much private. Are there schools at shaolin or elsewhere in China where I could go just to learn yi jin jing & shaolin qi gong? Thanks.

[LFJ]

I'll start off with a question for LFJ as you studied with Shi Deyang and you have mentioned that in his videos Deyang only shows bare versions of the actual forms. I suspect the same (or even more so) goes for his videos on Ba duan jin and Yi Jin Jing. So the question is if Deyang actually teaches different levels of softness/hardness.

Well, yeah. Because just about nothing is explained except how to move. Proper breathing is not even talked about. So you really gain no understanding of the practice or how to do it properly anyway.

There are minor differences in the movements in both his Baduanjin and Yijinjing, like staying flatfooted instead of raising the heels, but they are all there. This is not a different level, but just a change on the video versions.

[rett]

Well, yeah. Because just about nothing is explained except how to move. Proper breathing is not even talked about. So you really gain no understanding of the practice or how to do it properly anyway.

There are minor differences in the movements in both his Baduanjin and Yijinjing, like staying flatfooted instead of raising the heels, but they are all there. This is not a different level, but just a change on the video versions.

Do you mean the videos show flat-footed but in actual practice he raises the heels?

Is the heel raise an optional thing? i.e. you can do it if it feels right; and it comes at the very end of the movement (and very end of the outbreath?). But it's also okay to not raise the heels? For instance if you're a bit tired and woozy that day, just getting started early in the morning and it's still not very light out yet so your balance is bad, or things like that?

[LFJ]

Do you mean the videos show flat-footed but in actual practice he raises the heels?

Is the heel raise an optional thing? i.e. you can do it if it feels right; and it comes at the very end of the movement (and very end of the outbreath?). But it's also okay to not raise the heels? For instance if you're a bit tired and woozy that day, just getting started early in the morning and it's still not very light out yet so your balance is bad, or things like that?

Right, in actual practice it's done raising the heels. For example, on the first exercise of Baduanjin raising the hands and also the heels. It has a practical function. This exercise pulls and stretches the waist, back, chest and abdomen to induce full circulation of qi and spread natural bodily fluids so that the entire body receives their nourishment. Raising the heels is drawing from the ground up, pulling and pushing negative energy (tiredness, laziness, stress, etc..) out of the top of the head (baihui). It's quite a different feeling from doing it flatfooted. The big stretch helps to put your energy in motion and wake you up a bit more.

[rett]

Thanks. So in that first baduanjin movement would breathe out as your hands reach their highest point (and then breath out a second time as the come to the bottom)?

Or would you reach the max point of the in-breath as the hands reach the top?

[LFJ]

With the fingers interlocked when the arms push up overhead they come closer together and compress the upper chest. You should therefore exhale to reduce restriction and create a fuller stretch. So you would breathe out as you stretch up, and then breathe in as you come back down. Elbows open to the side, allowing the chest to expend back to normal, and relax.

[rett]

Thanks for the interesting ideas. I've tried it the way you describe and it all feels like good stuff and makes sense even if the version of that particular baduanjin move that I've learned is different.

In case it's of interest, I've found that when movements involve chest compression instead of doing the exhale there it's also possible to just open the glottis so as not to "clench" the breath. The airway is open so any extra breath is pushed out by the chest compression and you avoid overpressuring the lungs. Then as you continue with the relax phase of the movement you breathe out the rest normally.

Also in his version of that movement I've never seen my teacher lift his heels. There is a heel lift in a later movement. In BDJ-1 the feeling I've been working with has been both pushing up into the sky and down into the ground together (as best I understand it) like you're leading weight from your hands into the ground (as if you're a pillar between the foundation and roof of a building). So a heel-lift would take it in a different direction.


But again, there are so many ways to combine and use the same set of principles in movements, and so many styles of BDJ.

And of course your point about vids leaving out key points stands.

[LFJ]

Yeah, there are so many different versions of BDJ. I'm not sure how much they might change the function, but I've seen some interesting variations.

In Shi Deyang's version sections 1, 3, and 6 are done with heel raises.

Here he is doing the first three sections the "right way":

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KqLX2bH9GBg

[rett]

Very nice video, thx. I wonder if the soundtrack's by Imee Oomi?

The BDJ-1 there looks almost exactly like a stretch that one of the coaches has had us do as part of the warmup at taiji. I agree that it's very vitalizing.

Here's a very different Shaolin Ba Duan Jin, all eight movements. It starts from about 0:50 in the video. Heel lift on movement 5.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wcJzDnvZSvQ&feature=endscreen&NR=1

I hope this isn't too off-topic for a Shaolin Yi Jin Jing thread. AFAIK this is part of the preparation for Yi Jin Jing so it can't be completely irrelevant.

[ghostexorcist]

I wrote a very short article about dating the Yijin Jing manual several months ago. For those who have read Meir Shahar's book, you know that evidence dates it to 1624. I explain a political / patriotic reason for why this time was probably chosen. Stan Henning gave it the thumbs up. Have a look:

http://www.historum.com/blogs/ghostexorcist/665-dating-yijin-jing-manual.html

The info is actually a small part of a much longer article that isn't done yet. My research interests have done a 360, so it will be some time before I'm done with it.

[Empty_Cup]

I wrote a very short article about dating the Yijin Jing manual several months ago. For those who have read Meir Shahar's book, you know that evidence dates it to 1624. I explain a political / patriotic reason for why this time was probably chosen. Stan Henning gave it the thumbs up. Have a look:

http://www.historum.com/blogs/ghostexorcist/665-dating-yijin-jing-manual.html

The info is actually a small part of a much longer article that isn't done yet. My research interests have done a 360, so it will be some time before I'm done with it.

For those of you, like me, that haven't bought Meir Shahar's book there is a free excerpt/sample available through Google books: http://books.google.com/books/about/The_Shaolin_Monastery.html?id=KiNEB0H6S0EC

[Tainan Mantis]

Thanks for sharing that article, good stuff. I have the 1624 version in Chinese, would like to see a good translation of that.

The book mentions Weituo and shows him in a posture. Any thoughts on his relation to Narayana?

I wrote an article on Weituo, but left out the information on his Indian and possibly Greek connections.

Weituo offers his Vajra (http://www.plumflowermantisboxing.com/Articles/2009/weituo.htm)

[mickey]

Greetings,

Tainan Mantis

That drawing above, is it a part of a set of drawings?


mickey

[Tainan Mantis]

Hi Mickey,
Yes, a series of different exercises. They also use the name Ba Duan Jin 八段锦 for some of the pictures.

You can search google with the term Yi Jin Jing 易筋經 and come up with many pictures.
(careful if you search with Chinese characters, there are a lot of viruses on Chinese web sights)

Here is a sample.
http://kaleidoscope.cultural-china.com/en/7Kaleidoscope623.html

[Vajramusti]

Thanks for sharing that article, good stuff. I have the 1624 version in Chinese, would like to see a good translation of that.

The book mentions Weituo and shows him in a posture. Any thoughts on his relation to Narayana?

I wrote an article on Weituo, but left out the information on his Indian and possibly Greek connections.

Weituo offers his Vajra (http://www.plumflowermantisboxing.com/Articles/2009/weituo.htm)
-------------------------------------------------------------------

Post Damo-there were lots of Indian monks travelling to China and there were Chinese monks that came to India folks are not always aware of the historic Sino-Indian connections via Buddhism in philosophy, astronomy, pranayama, architecture and some other areas. The rise of Chinese nationalism with Chiang kai shek and Mao in different ways-began to obscure the sino-Indian connections.

[Tainan Mantis]

...folks are not always aware of the historic Sino-Indian connections via Buddhism in philosophy...

Yes, I agree Vajramusti. Can you, or anyone else, point me to Qing or pre-Qing source material on the significance of Weituo (Skanda) in Chinese Buddhism?

I have an especial interest in late Ming early Qingera.
I am looking for Chinese sources, but English is a good start.

Some online info Wei Tuo Pú sà (Bodhisattva Skanda) (http://murugan.org/research/china_skanda.htm)

Kevin

[ghostexorcist]

Thanks for sharing that article, good stuff. I have the 1624 version in Chinese, would like to see a good translation of that.

The book mentions Weituo and shows him in a posture. Any thoughts on his relation to Narayana?

I wrote an article on Weituo, but left out the information on his Indian and possibly Greek connections.

[...]

Skanda and his brother Ganesh, the sons of Shiva, were mentioned in early Buddhist sutras as Hindu gods, but they were split up and downgraded to Buddhist protector deities sometime later. Starting in the 5th-century, Chinese records include him, under the name Jiantuo, in a list of guardian deities / yakshas next to Vajrapani (a.k.a. Narayana). His original Chinese name was changed via a transcription error to Weituo during the Tang dynasty (the source says this is because the two characters look almost identical). The Chinese monk Daoxuan made Weituo a famous deity because he wrote about him in 667. He was portrayed as a great general that protects Buddhism in three of the four directions. It was during this time that Weituo was finally identified with Vajrapani, hence the connection (Bonnefoy, Asian Mythologies, pp. 125-126).

Weituo’s posture in the manual illustration is a play on older representations of Vajrapani. Vajrapani is usually seen wielding the Vajra, Weituo simply holds it in his arms as a reminder that he can quickly jump into action like his more hot-headed counterpart. I believe the reason that the pose is associated with power is because the weapon is associated with power, more specifically the element of lightning. Vajrapani is believed to be an emanation of Indra, the Hindu god of thunder and lightning. (One story has the Buddha snatching Indra's lightning-producing weapon and closing the end prongs together, taking away its power. This object is commonly referred to as a Dorje in Tibetan Buddhism.) Therefore, anyone who is capable of holding the weapon in such a way must be powerful.

[mawali]

I would guess that 9th or 10th century would be an excellent starting place then work backward from then. People probably starting writing about the Yijinjing in late 17th century as evidenced by the 1628 date and it probably had a folk origin, not put to the pen as of yet.

Resurrecting Chen style taijiquan with references to Buddha's warrior pounding fist, or references to vajra, etc around 1500's back to Li Family history. Previos fabrication have little veracity though I have seen dates of 425 and forward so it relies on who has the best and most document evidence despite the inaccuracies.

[Vajramusti]

[QUOTE=ghostexorcist;1180365]Skanda and his brother Ganesh, the sons of Shiva, were mentioned in early Buddhist sutras as Hindu gods, but they were split up and downgraded to Buddhist protector deities sometime later.
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Buddhism took over many Hindu concepts and symbols and icons and converted them to fit their own metaphysics. And then in China they were further absorbed into Chinese culture- beautiful transmissions.Avalokiteswara was transformed into Quan Yin.

In the Hindu pantheon Shiva's oldest son Ganesh was a bridge to nature, the younger son Kartikeyya
was the martial hero.... later transformed into Skanda in China.
The plural skandhas refers to five aggregates of existence.

[Tainan Mantis]

It was during this time that Weituo was finally identified with Vajrapani, hence the connection (Bonnefoy, Asian Mythologies, pp. 125-126).
Thanks, I just ordered this book.
His fame comes from Daoxun in a book from 667. I would like to know more about that book.
DO you happen to know the name of it?

[Scott R. Brown]

-------------------------------------------------------------------

Post Damo-there were lots of Indian monks travelling to China and there were Chinese monks that came to India folks are not always aware of the historic Sino-Indian connections via Buddhism in philosophy, astronomy, pranayama, architecture and some other areas. The rise of Chinese nationalism with Chiang kai shek and Mao in different ways-began to obscure the sino-Indian connections.

Don't forget to add the Tibetans in there too!

[ghostexorcist]

Thanks, I just ordered this book.
His fame comes from Daoxun in a book from 667. I would like to know more about that book.
DO you happen to know the name of it?

Several of my sources that refer to Daoxuan and his writings do not mention the title by name because it is not among his more notable works. I did some checking with various scholars, and Prof. Koichi Shinohara of Yale tells me that it is mentioned in:


Daoxuan, 道宣律師感通錄 (Vinaya Master Daoxuan’s Record of Miraculous Responses), T. 2106

Empty Cup contacted me earlier about him wanting to research the history of his particular Shaolin style. He asked what tools I used in the course of my own projects. I directed him to Prof. Meir Shahar’s book for a broad overview of Shaolin history. However, the best advice that I can give to him and other like-minded people is this: never be afraid to contact professional scholars. I have found that they are more than willing to provide help to budding scholars. I have never met Prof. Shinohara before, but he was gracious enough to take time from his research in India to lend a hand. He is one of many scholars that I have contacted over the years.

Just in case anyone else is interested, I stumbled upon a free pdf of Prof. Shahar’s book on Shaolin. It loads slowly, but it is good to have on a computer if you don’t have access to the physical book:

http://korat.ibc.ac.th/files/private/The%20Shaolin%20Monastery%20History,%20Religion%20 and%20the%20Chinese%20Martial%20Arts.pdf

[ghostexorcist]

Here is 《道宣律師感通錄》. He is called 韋將 (General Wei).

http://www.cbeta.org/result/normal/T52/2107_001.htm

[5_fists]

was wondering if anyone could recommend a good complete book on yijin jing self study? im looking to get into shape a bit and this seems interesting enough to keep me interested.

seems pretty well known, so i was surprised after doing some googling, that there arent too many complete printed manuals on the subject, it seems though to be a very solid/complete exercise set.

i do have a few books by Dr Ming Yang, but they seem more to touch on the exercises rather than teach them in entirety

thanks ahead ;)

[5thBrother]

try youtube

[GeneChing]

The Muscle-Tendon Change Classic (Yijinjing) instruction manual (http://www.martialartsmart.com/dvd-hq002.html) is a straight forward treatise on the subject and it comes with a DVD. This is the CHQA (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=49940) version, which is a good starting point. We also published another rendition of the CHQA version in our Shaolin Special 2010 (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/magazine/article.php?article=892) in The Muscle Tendon Change Classic: Yijinjing By William Oh.

Also, for good measure, there's this DVD: Shaolin Muscle-Tendon Change Classic (http://www.martialartsmart.com/dvd-bj005.html)

[5_fists]

thanks gentlemen

[5_fists]

say Gene - in the book you recommend, how many movements are in the exercise set? would one do them all one after the other as a set, a bit like a kata without the punches/kicks?

forgive my ignorance on the matter ;(


i bought a book when i was 14 called "kung fu - history, philosophy, and technique" therein was a picture of a chikung master with flexibility to the extent that, from a standing position, he could bend at the waist with legs straight, put his head through his legs, and hold his arms down to his feet to sort of lock the position in... i practiced my flexibility until i could do it too, and could do it actually, until i was about 25 or 6, but that was, near 15 years ago now
i taught myself to do some other "interesting" things too - i was a weird teenager..

about a year ago, i sat down with legs straight out in front and tried stretching forward to see where i stood - it hurt like hell , but after a few days of light stretching, i was able at least to touch my head to my knees.

in any case - use it or lose it, seems to be the word

[Kellen Bassette]

Most people on this forum learn their Kung Fu katas from Doc Fai Wong's books.

[Lucas]

Most people on this forum learn their Kung Fu katas from Doc Fai Wong's books.

rofl

:eek::eek:

[GeneChing]

Below are the names of the movements

Opening
1. Wei Tuo Presenting the Pestle
2. Wei Tuo Presenting the Pestle 2
3. Wei Tuo Presenting the Pestle 3
4. Plucking Stars on Each Side
5. Pulling Nine Cows by Their Tails
6. Showing Talons and Spreading Wings
7. Nine Ghosts Drawing Sabers
8. Sinking the Three Bodily Zones
9. Black Dragon Displaying Its Claws
10. Tiger Springing on Its Prey
11. Bowing Down in Salutation
12. Swinging the Tail
Closing

It's done in a sequence, like a form, with repetitions for each movement. But there's no reason why you couldn't do them separately if you were focusing on a particular element or guarding an injury. However, the transitions between the movements are part of the training, so it is meant to be done in sequence.

Here are some other yijinjing threads on this forum:
Yi Jin Jing (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=35704)
Dating the Yijin Jing (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=64088)
Ba Duan Jin and Yi Jin Jing (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=64590)

[5_fists]

thanks much gentlemen ;)

[5_fists]

just got it in the mail today, any tips? :)


The Muscle-Tendon Change Classic (Yijinjing) instruction manual (http://www.martialartsmart.com/dvd-hq002.html) is a straight forward treatise on the subject and it comes with a DVD. This is the CHQA (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=49940) version, which is a good starting point. We also published another rendition of the CHQA version in our Shaolin Special 2010 (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/magazine/article.php?article=892) in The Muscle Tendon Change Classic: Yijinjing By William Oh.

Also, for good measure, there's this DVD: Shaolin Muscle-Tendon Change Classic (http://www.martialartsmart.com/dvd-bj005.html)

[GeneChing]

That's the way to make qigong work - daily practice.

[5_fists]

i made it fine until pulling 9 cows by the tail, thats hard to understand from the book

[5_fists]

at plucking stars, it says 'turn the body to the left and bend the knees' but it didnt explain if youre supposed to keep your back straight as you reach with the right hand to the left, i tried keeping my back straight and that put pressure on the knees, i could see how that would strengthen them, but by leaning forward i felt the stretch in my lower back, i think thats what the exercise intends

also, do you turn the body to the left but keep the knees forward facing, or also turn the knees leftwards?
thanks

[rett]

Did you get the DVD?

Big disclaimer, I'm not a teacher but maybe this can be of use:

Looks like it just means rotating the upper body. Gongbu can be forward facing or side facing without changing the lower-body part. Looks like when you reach forward you rotate into a side-facing gong bu (shoulder forward) which maximizes your reach with the forward (right) arm.

The knees and feet are pointing diagonally left but not because you turned them. It's because you took a diagonal step backwards to go into the gongbu from the readystance or mabu before it.

If you lean forward try to preserve the feeling of being centred and stable in the stance. Don't be like you're tipping forward out of balance.

And go very easy on the knees. Build them up slowly and gradually.

Just some guesses based on the video. Hope it helps, and if I've made a mistake hope someone corrects it.

Edit: this was about 9 cows by the tail, first one you asked about. Just saw your later questions were actually about plucking stars. Will look there too.

[rett]

Plucking stars, keep the knees in line with the toes. Preserve a stable lower body and have a light, mobile upper body. He leans a bit in the DVD.

[GeneChing]

Each of us have our own unique physical challenges that might prevent literal execution of any given form, so it's hard to really give sound advice without directly witnessing your practice. Eventually, you adapt the form to fit your body. At the same time, your body grows to fit the form. But that's a process, a long way off from where you are now. For now, as you don't have a teacher beyond yourself, go soft. If you experience discomfort, approach it gradually so as not to cause injury. Protect yourself. No need to get discouraged so early in the process. Ultimately you want to both strengthen you knees and stretch your back, so stay loose, go easy but regularly, and have fun.

[David Jamieson]

Most people on this forum learn their Kung Fu katas from Doc Fai Wong's books.

orly?

lol, seriously...that cannot be true.

plus "katas"? really?

take that krotty talk outta here!

They're forms, sets, kuen, taolu, roads.

Not kata. :mad:


:p

[Kellen Bassette]

orly?

lol, seriously...that cannot be true.

plus "katas"? really?

take that krotty talk outta here!

They're forms, sets, kuen, taolu, roads.

Not kata. :mad:


:p

LOL I was just trying to get a rise out of Frank when he was going off about his form on the Shaolin Do thread...he either didn't read it or didn't take the bait...the poster mentioned learning from a Kung Fu book and referred to the forms as katas, so I couldn't resist...

[Empty_Cup]

Does anybody else here practice Yi Jin jing as a series of 49 isometric exercises?

[5_fists]

to those of you hijacking my thead - please refrain from doing so - i'd hate to have to track you down, and use my goose-fist boxing on you :D

[Empty_Cup]

to those of you hijacking my thead - please refrain from doing so - i'd hate to have to track you down, and use my goose-fist boxing on you :D

This is a different thread from the one you started:confused:

[Empty_Cup]

Does anybody else here practice Yi Jin jing as a series of 49 isometric exercises?

Bump to the top. Anybody?

[Tainan Mantis]

Does anybody else here practice Yi Jin jing as a series of 49 isometric exercises?

We do twelve exercises with 49 isometric tightenings per breath.

[herb ox]

Greetings

The interpretations of Yi Jin Jing are quite diverse, to say the least. Something I notice, however is that between the various Shaolin monk teachers, there is also not much consistency.

Like super old school Shi Yan Hui https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wFGm2hA7ZG4&list=PLh5B51D5l-l-3EcIzrweDq-y7CWleGHZu&index=1

versus

Shi De Yang https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kR0Ju98Jv-0&list=PLh5B51D5l-l-3EcIzrweDq-y7CWleGHZu&index=2

versus the young Shi Heng Yi (who's version I like the most) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GvQUttWLVWc

So many variations, especially how the finished posture is presented.

Any insights?

peace
herb ox