Wing Chunn and Technique against Bear Hug

[Slade]

I have a problem concerning A Wing Chun technique appliction for Bear hug, the story goes one of my friends has just started doing a security course (He has been doing wing chun for 2 years, light Brown sash) and they were doing techniques against bear hug, he found that he was purely out powered and he couldnt raise his arms to break out and the pelvic trust backwards did nothing. on some occations The instructor would lift him off the ground doing the bear hug which totally limited what he could do.
Ultimately Wing Chun didnt work, I ask why? is it that he is S#$^ and couldnt do it well enough or does it require alot more strength to do? or is it the style just isnt any good against a grappler.

Thats about all the info I can give since thats all he has told me
I look forward to some answers in the close future

[Sihing73]

Hello,

If the exercise is to try and escape from a Bear Hug which is applied and you can not move unil the hold is executed then it will be extremely difficult to escape no matter what art you chose to do. A key aspect of countering any type of grapple or controlling attack is to respond before a good hold is applied. Once someone has put a good hold on you it will be bery difficult if not impossible to break out.

A key is to respond before the hold is applied. However there are several factors which need to be considered. For example is this a rear or forward Bear Hug or is it intended to defend against both? Are the arms covered or free? If this is a defense against a rear Bear Hug which covers the arms then again you would need to react before the hold is fully applied. The most simple technique could possible be to shift slightly to the side while inhalling fully. You may even want to sqaut down slightly. Using whichever hand is appropriate, depending on the sid eyou shift towards, you can attempt to strike to the groin with something akin to a Fak Sau. You can also attempt to scrape your foot down along the aooponents shin. In addition to this while you attack the oppenent you can use your free hand to try and grab the attackers hands. If you can grip a finger then twisting it may be of some benefit.

Of course, this is easy to write on the internent. There are a variety of factors which will make the above either worthwhile or worthless. However, I still believe that one the of the key elements of a sucessful response is to react as soon as you realize the attack is coming. Try to cut off the hold before it is applied fully.

Just one opinion!

Peace,

Dave

[KPM]

I agree with Dave! Any lock or hold is much more difficult to escape if you wait for it to be fully applied before you attempt to respond. Even systems that specialize in such things will emphasize this!

Keith

[Ultimatewingchun]

While I agree that once many holds are fully locked in - escape can be very difficult (and sometimes impossible)...

I'm wondering if...after your friend used his pelvic thrust backward (presumably hitting the man with his back)...while thrusting his arms forward (even if he could only raise them up from between his hands and his elbows)...

he still didn't create enough room behind him (it only takes a few inches) to reach behind with both hands and literally grab and squeeze the bear hugger's testicles?

[Nick Forrer]

The counter to a rear bear hug (arms over) is found in the second section of the first form. You do not have to thrust your pelvis back - in fact doing so probably makes the counter harder. The trick is to lift your elbows up, not your hands although your hands (through the fact of being connected to your elbows) will of course move up. This action will create room by breaking/loosening his grip via leverage and allow you to do a rear strike to his groin. This should as a reflex make him pike and the two things together - lifting the elbows and striking backwards, should give you enough room to turn into him. If you still cant get this to work, drop the hips down while you push up with the elbows i.e. sag and make yourself a dead weight. This will make it harder for him to lift you. your instructor should be able to demonstrate this on you. If he cant it might be time to get another teacher (the 'brown sash' comment raises red flags). One last resort if you are picked up off the ground is to grape vine his leg.

[Jeff Bussey]

Hey guys,
Definitely the key is to react as you see the hands come around. And of course it's impossible to catch it all the time. IMO the best way to get out of a bear hug is to hit the guys back of his hand with your knuckles, it hurts quite a bit. Try it on yourself if you haven't felt it. Another thing is that you can usually get a hold of a finger or pry it away from the others and just literally try and rip it off.
Now, after saying that, that's great if you have a few seconds to react. I was on the market once and a guy tried to grab me from behind and lucky enough I was able to react before he clenched his hands by jutting out my elbows to widen the area he was trying to wrap around.
The techniques may not come from the ving tsun system but IMO ving tsun has made me react quicker than I use to and that's the key.

[SAAMAG]

See this is where I draw the line with containing the prescribed technique from a particular style. You don't know how ridiculous it sounds asking what "wing chun technique to use during a bear hug". Why not just, what technique does work during a bear hug?

I tell my training partners and friends, and I live by this myself, to use whatever works at the time it's needed. In "real" fights, you don't have time to pick and choose, making sure it comes from a prescribed style or whatever. I'm sure the wing chun gods won't get angry if you use something not in their forms to keep yourself from getting pummeled or killed.

Dave and the others pretty much already asked the pertinant questions, as far as details as to what type of bear hug, arms in or out, belly to belly or belly to back, grounded or not etc....

The best thing for grappling in general is to try and sense the hold coming on either just before or as it's happening. That maximizes your chances for escape. I guess in terms of wing chun this would be just like the idea of attacking the attack before it has time to materialize. (IE moving in on a kick or punch at it's inception to dilute it's effectiveness)

Second, once you're there, there are many things you can do...all dependant on your position relative to his. Headbutts to the nose always work well, if your grounded maiming techniques (foot stomps, groin attacks, headbutts) can work to soften up the hold before applying a "break" of it. Hell, I was once in a bear hug and only had time to bring my elbow to the inside point, turned it out so that the elbow point was towards the opponent (this was belly to belly) and everytime he tried to squeeze, he pushed my elbow point into his zyphoid process. Worked like a charm until I headbutted him and he dropped me.

So there are so many things, you have to act instinctively, and not care where the technique comes from. Do what you have to do to survive, once out...use wing chun chain punching all you want.

[couch]

See this is where I draw the line with containing the prescribed technique from a particular style. You don't know how ridiculous it sounds asking what "wing chun technique to use during a bear hug". Why not just, what technique does work during a bear hug?

I tell my training partners and friends, and I live by this myself, to use whatever works at the time it's needed. In "real" fights, you don't have time to pick and choose, making sure it comes from a prescribed style or whatever. I'm sure the wing chun gods won't get angry if you use something not in their forms to keep yourself from getting pummeled or killed.

Dave and the others pretty much already asked the pertinant questions, as far as details as to what type of bear hug, arms in or out, belly to belly or belly to back, grounded or not etc....

The best thing for grappling in general is to try and sense the hold coming on either just before or as it's happening. That maximizes your chances for escape. I guess in terms of wing chun this would be just like the idea of attacking the attack before it has time to materialize. (IE moving in on a kick or punch at it's inception to dilute it's effectiveness)

Second, once you're there, there are many things you can do...all dependant on your position relative to his. Headbutts to the nose always work well, if your grounded maiming techniques (foot stomps, groin attacks, headbutts) can work to soften up the hold before applying a "break" of it. Hell, I was once in a bear hug and only had time to bring my elbow to the inside point, turned it out so that the elbow point was towards the opponent (this was belly to belly) and everytime he tried to squeeze, he pushed my elbow point into his zyphoid process. Worked like a charm until I headbutted him and he dropped me.

So there are so many things, you have to act instinctively, and not care where the technique comes from. Do what you have to do to survive, once out...use wing chun chain punching all you want.


I agree that whatever comes out in the street, comes out in the street. But it's nice to practise things in the kwoon. Lots of different approaches to the attack with many different partners. I would think that would give you more 'options' than just having whatever come out in a real situation.

I agree that you need to 'strike first, strike hard, no mercy Sir.' Use whatever tools you have and don't stop till they pop or drop. Oops, that's the heimlich.

;)

Kenton Sefcik

[dej2]

What is the purpose of the "bear hug"? Does he eventually have to let you go before trying something else? If it's face to face... how about spitting, not normally a bonafide MA technique but can be effective. From behind I agree with Vankuen a head butt with the back of your head. If your a woman maybe wear large hair pins that have sharp points... maybe a heal stomp? If you cant touch the ground dig your heal into his shin? (could be hard to do if the guy has a large belly... depends on the situation I guess)

But I agree that the use of your Wing Chun should be applied prior to getting yourself into that position would be the most effect course of action.

[SAAMAG]

The "bear hug" can be used to basically draw the breath right out of you, hold you for some one else to hit you, or simply to stop you from doing anything. And assuming the person doing it is very big and strong, then he could literally crush you should the ability be there. I've heard of guys getting their backs broken as well. But hey...just hit the guy.

[YungChun]

Ain't it the truth....

As skilled as Ip Man was can you imagine the problem he would have had with this one at his size?

I can't fathom how Ip could have handled a big hulk in a BH, perhaps he wouldn't have let him get it on...

[Tom Kagan]

What is the purpose of the "bear hug"?

You're kidding, right?

If you're going to leak enough opportunity to let someone else fully sink a "bear hug", forget it. It's just not your lucky day. There won't be a head behind you to butt, shin to reach, or a face to spit in. The fingers in the "monkey's paw" grip will be inaccessible. You can look for these leaks if you have time (and should), but holes will be plugged. Still, there are quite a few reasonable avenues in this thread to explore here as to how to stop your leaks and recover from the impending doom before it happens.

If they know what they are doing, someone with a fully sunk standing body lock on you is going to show you the pleasures of experiencing a sweep, trip, or break fall and what it's like to be squashed on landing. Or, if they really, really, know what they are doing, you'll have the unforgettable sensation of flying via a suplay or salto. (Fasten your seatbelt. It's going to be a bumpy landing. Objects may have shifted in flight. :D)

So, what in your VingTsun have you been taught that can help you deal with this scenario? The same thing your opponent learned in his training: ways to manage and minimize pain. (You are learning to deal with that in your class, right? ;))


As skilled as Ip Man was can you imagine the problem he would have had with this one at his size?

I can't fathom how Ip could have handled a big hulk in a BH

He did. The man's name is Mak Po. How did Yip Man handle it? By convincing Mak Po to become his student.

Can anyone else claim their KungFu is that good? :D



(I must be hearing the call of 300 posts or something. I suppose that's not too outlandish of an expression of hot air after four years of tongue wagging. :)).

[SAAMAG]

You're kidding, right?

If you're going to leak enough opportunity to let someone else fully sink a "bear hug", forget it. It's just not your lucky day. There won't be a head behind you to butt, shin to reach, or a face to spit in. The fingers in the "monkey's paw" grip will be inaccessible. You can look for these leaks if you have time (and should), but holes will be plugged. Still, there are quite a few reasonable avenues in this thread to explore here as to how to stop your leaks and recover from the impending doom before it happens.

If they know what they are doing, someone with a fully sunk standing body lock on you is going to show you the pleasures of experiencing a sweep, trip, or break fall and what it's like to be squashed on landing. Or, if they really, really, know what they are doing, you'll have the unforgettable sensation of flying via a suplay or salto. (Fasten your seatbelt. It's going to be a bumpy landing. Objects may have shifted in flight. :D)

So, what in your VingTsun have you been taught that can help you deal with this scenario? The same thing your opponent learned in his training: ways to manage and minimize pain. (You are learning to deal with that in your class, right? ;))



He did. The man's name is Mak Po. How did Yip Man handle it? By convincing Mak Po to become his student.

Can anyone else claim their KungFu is that good? :D



(I must be hearing the call of 300 posts or something. I suppose that's not too outlandish of an expression of hot air after four years of tongue wagging. :)).


Very true TK. I forgot to mention the impending throw or takedown that could come of it as well. I was assuming they were talking about the standing bear hug in and of itself.

As far as what Yip man did or didn't do...doesn't matter. Nothing can really be subtantiated with absolute certainty, ESPECIALLY with wing chun history with all the crap the lineages are throwing around...and we don't need any more talk of that BS. Besides...what Yip Man did makes no real difference on your exploration of it today.

[old jong]

Defending against a locked rear bear hug is the same as defending against a already connected punch on the nose!
It depends on who is holding you in the bear hug just like on who was throwing the punch.
It is always better to be a step ahead in both cases. ;)

[anerlich]

See this is where I draw the line with containing the prescribed technique from a particular style. You don't know how ridiculous it sounds asking what "wing chun technique to use during a bear hug". Why not just, what technique does work during a bear hug?

I agree with this.

I also think you have to really do some work and experimentation against progressively faster and more tightly applied bear hugs in the kwoon, to see what actually DOES work, and (I think you'll find) when it's too late and you're going to have to wear the result. Knowing techniques and theory is no substitute for empirical experience against people really trying to get that bearhug.

If the guy puts you in a bear hug and then just lets you go to hit you, he's a moron. Running you into a wall or pillar, hip hoist and drop to to the ground, preferably festooned with hard and pointy objects, or a rear suplex onto the edge a table or chair, would be my favorite follow ups.

Anyone who knows how a proper bear hug works will place their forehead on your back, making headbutts and elbows impossible. The same thing is true from the front, you just dig your head into the side of their neck.

[Gangsterfist]

I was taught by my sifu, and this is if the technique of the bear hug is already applied to you from the back. Drop your weight, post on one leg, use the other leg to gain some kind of distance or attack (kicking to his knees whatever). This is also assuming they have your arms bound down your sides with their grip.

This is just one answer. Another answer would be to just not get bear hugged.

Is it wing chun? I suppose thats debateable. Does it work? Yes

My sifu who teaches me wing chun taught me this...


There is no definate answer a system can give you. The system of martial arts you train gives you ideas and concepts to work off of and find your own answer.

[dej2]

If the guy puts you in a bear hug and then just lets you go to hit you, he's a moron. Running you into a wall or pillar, hip hoist and drop to to the ground, preferably festooned with hard and pointy objects, or a rear suplex onto the edge a table or chair, would be my favorite follow ups.

Anyone who knows how a proper bear hug works will place their forehead on your back, making headbutts and elbows impossible. The same thing is true from the front, you just dig your head into the side of their neck.

Anerlich, Thank you.

Very informative, now I have the picture of the infamous "bear hug".

[azwingchun]

You don't know how ridiculous it sounds asking what "wing chun technique to use during a bear hug". Why not just, what technique does work during a bear hug?

Maybe I am missing something here, but maybe because this is a "WING CHUN" Forum?!?!?!?! And this is what most people here study and would like an answer from their style. If this was a mixed martial art forum your statement would possibly be relevant but in a "system" particular forum, not a so ridiculous question. Besides if you aren't looking into your own style, why are you training in it for any answers?!?!?!?!

And though I agree with you on that you should use what works for you in the street, you still need to train in the kwoon your reaction, proper techniques etc. to whatever it is you find effective. Or there would be no reason to train anything at all, you would just use whatever came out and worked at that time. But in the case your training hasn't answered those questions yet....sure use whatever comes out, and don't worry about the as mentioned "Wing Chun Gods". ;)

[Tom Kagan]

You know, it just occurred to me (DOH!): The instructor is the one sinking the standing body lock. What did he say to do? Is he just interested in setting up the salto or what? :eek:



As far as what Yip man did or didn't do...doesn't matter. Nothing can really be subtantiated with absolute certainty, ESPECIALLY with wing chun history with all the crap the lineages are throwing around...and we don't need any more talk of that BS. Besides...what Yip Man did makes no real difference on your exploration of it today.

I understand your point of view and certainly see its value. However, ;)

I once was in the middle of a conversation where someone was telling me about some bar fight where he had to come to the aid of his friend. He was telling me about how his used "this technique from <abc>" then "that technique from <xyz>" and asked me what the proper Ving Tsun response would be.

I said: "The proper Ving Tsun response??? You're studying to be a Doctor for chrissake!! Ving Tsun should teach you to find a new friend who won't put you in that situation and who'll whoop your ass if you ever do that to him."

He fell silent for about five seconds, then asked if he could show me what he did in the fight. I smiled and said "sure."


I've met Mak Po. If he chose to glob on to you, the only people who have a shot at getting away would be younger and/or stronger and/or healthier versions of himself. He has literally used peoples' bodies as a wrecking ball in rooms where he either got annoyed at someone or he just didn't like the decor. (Now that I think about it, he's a lot like my brother-in-law. :D) Skill - VingTsun or otherwise - is, in my SWAG estimation, barely an eighth of what it takes to "deal" with a person like that, even if we restrict it to the realm of a confrontation.

When you finally meet your younger, faster, and more skilled Greco Roman incantation of "Mak Po", and you manage to jam yourself up, you can certainly find out if all the things you envisioned will work would actually make the cut or not. But, I'm going to see if I have enough of what it takes to that person my friend so he keeps coming back. All the other stuff should take care of itself if I can do that.

And hey, if I can get my "Mak Po" to pay to help keep the door open and a roof over our head, and care enough about the others around to "bear hug" them too, even better! :D It takes a lot more KungFu to achieve this - for him and for me - than to merely spit and head butt.

That's all I meant by my response to YungChun.


(Yeah, I've definitely fallen into a gravitational pull. 300 posts or bust!)

:cool:

[SAAMAG]

Maybe I am missing something here, but maybe because this is a "WING CHUN" Forum?!?!?!?! And this is what most people here study and would like an answer from their style. If this was a mixed martial art forum your statement would possibly be relevant but in a "system" particular forum, not a so ridiculous question. Besides if you aren't looking into your own style, why are you training in it for any answers?!?!?!?!I meant that aside from the obvious fact that we're on a wing chun forum. I just think that people sometimes tend to lose sight they they are individuals, they don't think beyong their system when need be because they feel the system has an answer for everything...which it doesn't. The answers that make work however (though not specficially addressing the question at hand, can be transposed amongst many styles and therefore are no longer unique to the style. It's like looking for algebra answers in an english book.



But in the case your training hasn't answered those questions yet....sure use whatever comes out, and don't worry about the as mentioned "Wing Chun Gods". ;) My training has taken me beyond looking for answers in places they cannot be found. Perhaps you should open your mind a little and not be slave to dogma.

[azwingchun]

My training has taken me beyond looking for answers in places they cannot be found. Perhaps you should open your mind a little and not be slave to dogma.

This is the problem if you ask me, you are making a statement about me, when at this point I was actually agreeing with you. Secondly, as mentioned by many, just because one doesn't see any answer doesn't mean it doesn't exist. People make comments based upon their own experiences and perceptions, and there isn't a problem with this....this is called learning.

If you did know me you would realize that the system I do today looks nothing like what I was originally taught. So the so-called "dogma" statement doesn't apply to me. If it did I would be a carbon copy of my past Sifu, but instead I played off my own actually experiences and what I felt I found within the system and worked off of that. I was never a slave to my teacher and to follow what he said because what he said was the so-called truth. Though, beacuse I look within my own system for the answers then you could be correct, but personally I find no fault in doing so. Of course these seem to be my opinion, but that's ok, I didn't ask you to believe in my "dogma".

[SAAMAG]

This is the problem if you ask me, you are making a statement about me, when at this point I was actually agreeing with you. Secondly, as mentioned by many, just because one doesn't see any answer doesn't mean it doesn't exist. People make comments based upon their own experiences and perceptions, and there isn't a problem with this....this is called learning. I'm not making a statement about you, I'm making a statement about your statement. I don't know you well enough to make a statement about you. But the statement I made about looking for answers where there are none, pretty much holds true. Unless you can find a unique technique that the wing chun system developed to specifically address this issue, successfully I might add. The double palms to the back only addresses one scenario, and well quite frankly it doesn't do it very realistically. So if there is another answer....please enlighten me because my training thus far hasn't apparently. (and I mean that with all sincerity.)



If you did know me you would realize that the system I do today looks nothing like what I was originally taught. So the so-called "dogma" statement doesn't apply to me. If it did I would be a carbon copy of my past Sifu, but instead I played off my own actually experiences and what I felt I found within the system and worked off of that. I was never a slave to my teacher and to follow what he said because what he said was the so-called truth. Though, beacuse I look within my own system for the answers then you could be correct, but personally I find no fault in doing so. Of course these seem to be my opinion, but that's ok, I didn't ask you to believe in my "dogma".
There's nothing wrong with looking at your own system for answers...as long as you don't make up something that wasn't there to begin with. A lot of traditional stylists talk about practicing a form, and then "discovering" a new technique. This is total BS. The technique is what it is, if it's hidden, then it probably was never there. Instead what's happening is people are taking the air movements, and trying to apply them to some physical manifestation which may or may not be the intent of the physical movement in the air. Is it what the style intended (was it actually there?) or did someone just make something up? Who's to say right?

To me, if it's hidden then it's bs. That's just a way to milk people into thinking the style has all the answers. It doesn't, and never will. The "style" is one groups ideal method of fighting....is it really ideal? Or is it simply preference? Is it really geared toward fighting? Or is it geared toward making money? Is it reality.....?

[Vajramusti]

I just think that people sometimes tend to lose sight they they are individuals,

((Often true))

they don't think beyong their system when need be because they feel the system has an answer for everything...

((Depends on their knowledge))

which it doesn't

((depends on yours))

[azwingchun]

I'm not making a statement about you, I'm making a statement about your statement.

That was my point exactly when I put your statement to me in quotes. The statement you responded to was in agreement with actually. At least as I meant for it to be anyway?!?!?!?! I was stating just because you haven't learned something or don't know the answer based upon your training (be it Wing Chun or other) use what works.


I don't know you well enough to make a statement about you.

Thanks you. ;)



Unless you can find a unique technique that the wing chun system developed to specifically address this issue, successfully I might add.

Whether Wing Chun developed it or not is not the question in general.....not sure Wing Chun invented anything in particular to be honest, just adopted a certain set of ways to use any particular move which possibly already existed. Who knows what Wing Chun originally created (if any), I wasn't there.


The double palms to the back only addresses one scenario

We can agree here at least.


and well quite frankly it doesn't do it very realistically.

I disagree here, though may not be the best technique used, it is just an idea as far as I see and teach it. There are many other ideas which may be much better. Obviously a strike or some sort of other technique or idea may be better. But this goes along with any technique taught. Based on someone's strenghts and weaknesses one tool may be more effective than the other. So when teaching a certain drill I explain these are just ideas and let the student explore and ask questions at this point. As far as the striking behind you, I agree this isn't a very powerful strike, but the other things could come into play. Whether it is a hit, distraction, or a grab.....it may have it's place at any given moment. Again, the question needs to be asked 'what are the opponent's intentions?' Is he holding me for his buddy to strike? Is he trying to throw me and the questions go on and on. These can only be answered in the heat of the moment.


There's nothing wrong with looking at your own system for answers...as long as you don't make up something that wasn't there to begin with.

Not so sure I get this part?!?!? If you are speaking of going outside of Wing Chun principles, then I agree....if you are looking within your art. But the making up of stuff is where you throw me off. I never knew Wing Chun to have a set of techniques, this is what drew me to Wing Chun. It was the fact that it was based upon principles as to a handed down set or specific techniques (at least the way it was taught to me anyway). And due to this, through principles or concept one could explore the system, never being bound to having to do 'xyz', or you weren't doing it correctly. The system allows for personal expression, as long as the basic core principles were applied. This is where I think many Wing Chun people (not pointing fingers) get stuck in the lineage thing. They say they do Ip Ching Wing Chun, well, I hope they don't...because you can't do his Wing Chun. You have to do your Wing Chun. He may be a good teacher and this may be your lineage, but to copy him would be a fault. So, to respond to your statement, yes, I look into other applications that haven't been taught to me......I explore options outside of that and make it my Wing Chun.


A lot of traditional stylists talk about practicing a form, and then "discovering" a new technique. This is total BS. The technique is what it is, if it's hidden, then it probably was never there. Instead what's happening is people are taking the air movements, and trying to apply them to some physical manifestation which may or may not be the intent of the physical movement in the air.

Maybe in karate type forms you may be correct, because they are a little more direct in their appearance, at least to look at them and see possible fighting applications. But to look at Wing Chun's SLT, you don't truly see any real applications. Take SLT for instance, the actual applications in appearance would seem slim to non to a non martial artist or someone used to training the more direct appearance of katas. Again, when I look at the forms, I look at ideas, and principles, whether they be principles of applications. Maybe this is just me. This reminds me of a story I experienced as a SLT student. There was this couple that came into the school, they had a Praying Mantis school in California....they wanted to watch our class and see what we were about. Needless to say, they walked out before we even got halfway through SLT. They had told my teacher that they didn't see any fighting stuff in the form. So hidden???? Possibly, at least within first appearance.

The word hidden is almost coming acrossed as the word 'secret' as you are adding it in your reply. If this is what you mean, then, no, I agree. Hidden as mentioned above, meaning not quite apparent to the naked eye.....then possibly. But this may be the case with many systems, this is why you need a teacher to teach you and not just read books and watch videos. They may help, but without previous experience or someone to correct your mistakes, you will never know what the system truly and fully offers.


Or is it simply preference? Is it really geared toward fighting? Or is it geared toward making money? Is it reality.....?

Preference?!?!?!?? This is very possible, as talked about recently, people are drawn to martial arts for various reasons. As far as reality goes, this is based upon experiences, which creates perception in my opinion. I don't peronally rate my experiences as those who do NHB type events. As I mentioned in the "put up or shut up" thread, non of my street encounters were anything like a NHB. Sure it was combat, but not regulated by time limits, rules set into place, mats and protective hand gear used, no did I ever hear a big guy yell "ARE YOU READY? ARE YOU READY? LET'S GET IT ON"! :D With this said, I will agree with you, that you need to use what works, and if it doesn't then throw it away. So those only fight in point fighting arenas, will have a much different idea than the guy who fights in NHB, as to the guy who grew in the streets fighting for his life daily will see the differences in NHB type events.

Finallly, I can agree that we have very different ideas when it comes to looking for all the answers within any one certain style of choice, but I agree that you must use what works at that moment in time to save your butt. What can I say, I have bitten someone once when I was in a very bad position. Is that Wing Chun?!?!?!? I have never seen a biting specific principle in Wing Chun ever!!! :p

[SAAMAG]

:cool: Tha's cool. I'm not trying to hijack the thread or anything...you've brought up some good points...as usual, just misunderstanding of verbage.

[azwingchun]

Tha's cool. I'm not trying to hijack the thread or anything...you've brought up some good points...

Yeah, sometimes it's easy to forget the topic of threads when you get off track a bit. LOL!!!! Anyway, enjoyed the discussion. ;)

[Phil Redmond]

I have a problem concerning A Wing Chun technique appliction for Bear hug, the story goes one of my friends has just started doing a security course (He has been doing wing chun for 2 years, light Brown sash) and they were doing techniques against bear hug, he found that he was purely out powered and he couldnt raise his arms to break out and the pelvic trust backwards did nothing. on some occations The instructor would lift him off the ground doing the bear hug which totally limited what he could do.
Ultimately Wing Chun didnt work, I ask why? is it that he is S#$^ and couldnt do it well enough or does it require alot more strength to do? or is it the style just isnt any good against a grappler.

Thats about all the info I can give since thats all he has told me
I look forward to some answers in the close future
The thrust backward should be done with the rounded back and not the pelvis. If you feel that you're going to be lifted up back peddle rapidly to keep the person off balance.
PR

[azwingchun]

Something else you may try is instead of just standing there with this type of technique, is to step out forward, and slightly at an angle. This pulling the attacker forward, this creates space for breathing, and takes the attacker off of your direct line.

Again, as I mentioned within each drill there are many different ideas and answers, sometimes a drill is just a drill. You should play with it and test different options from this same position. Not just learn the drill and move on. ;)

[Vajramusti]

--Trying to find counters against throwing from a striking art system is not only difficult but impossible."
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((Limiting and characterising wing chun as only a striking art is not correct IMO.
Nick Forrer had a correct wing chun solution earlier in the thread IMO. Of course
executing it involves understanding the ygkym well and having good timing and the radar for intercepting that is developed through good chi sao experience.))Joy

[Yaksha]

escape is never impossible.

every position is the best position to be in if that's the position you're in.

Learn to use your weakness to your advantage.

[Tom Kagan]

Everything has counters but a successful bear hug with both of your feet off the ground has no counters. You can glue yourself on your opponent but your opponent can still use sacrifice throw - lay down backward and smash your head to the ground.


"Daniel-son, if you do "dangle foot bear hug" technique right, no can defend."


If you have sufficient intuitive awareness of the 3 dimensional spatial aspects of the relationship of the mother line with the center line intead of the typical 2 dimensional awareness, there are many things you can try. If you have sufficient preparation, there are many things you can do. Still, like any other technique or counter performed from any position, we are really talking about manipulating percentages so lady luck shines on us. Nevertheless, empirical evidence clearly shows there would a lot more people killed or serously injured via Suplay or Salto during the learning and training of wrestlers if this was not the case.